I know this has been a series of side-tracks from the TTC and the OP, Twenty-five. It does seem so far away from an ancient Chinese text. But isn't it all connected?
Just gonna post one more. I love the opening sounds and the apple pie :cool:
[Sagan]
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch
You must first invent the universe

Carl Sagan - 'A Glorious Dawn' ft Stephen Hawking (Symphony of Science)


Excerpt:

[Hawking]
For thousands of years
People have wondered about the universe
Did it stretch out forever
Or was there a limit

From the big bang to black holes
From dark matter to a possible big crunch
Our image of the universe today
Is full of strange sounding ideas
— Carl Sagan - A Glorious Dawn lyrics

This. I find so difficult to believe and imagine. Are we really 'stardust in the highest exalted way'?
Looking around the world...hmm...I think we can enjoy the perspective of 'being in the middle'. Small beings in an enormous universe. Trying to understand...dumbstruck in awe. No wonder we let our imagination wander. For better or worse. Creating stories.

"We Are Star Dust" - Symphony of Science


[Neil deGrasse Tyson]
We are part of this universe
We are in this universe
The universe is in us
Yes, the universe is in us

[Lawrence Krauss]
Every atom in your body
Came from a star that exploded
You are all star dust
From a star that exploded

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]
Look up at the night sky
We are part of that
The universe itself
Exists within us

We are star dust
In the highest exalted way
Called by the universe
Reaching out to the universe

We are star dust
In the highest exalted way
Reaching out to the universe
With these methods and tools of science

[Richard Feynman]
Stand in the middle and enjoy everything both ways
The tininess of us;
The enormity of the universe

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]
The atoms that make up the human body
Are traceable to the crucibles
That cooked light elements
Into heavy elements
These stars went unstable in their later years
And then exploded
Scattering their enriched guts
Across the galaxy

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]
We are part of this universe
We are in this universe
The universe is in us
Yes, the universe is in us

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]
We are part of this universe
We are in this universe
The universe is in us
Yes, the universe is in us

We can either act in accord with the Way or try to hack our way through life. — Fooloso4

How do you connect with the Way? What does it mean for you in everyday life?
Is to be aware of how you are and what you do? With appreciation and awareness of the best way to live? To be the best you can be? Treating other beings and the world with respect?

Is this being in accord with the Way, about being connected in a creative and caring way?
Why do we need to name it? Why do some lay claim to understanding it better than others? But still do not seem to enjoy the flowing, questioning spirit? Becoming defensive, as if under attack?

Symphony of Science - 'We Are All Connected' (ft. Sagan, Feynman, deGrasse Tyson & Bill Nye)



We Are All Connected

[deGrasse Tyson]
We are all connected;
To each other, biologically
To the earth, chemically
To the rest of the universe atomically

[Feynman]
I think nature's imagination
Is so much greater than man's
She's never going to let us relax

[Sagan]
We live in an in-between universe
Where things change all right
But according to patterns, rules,
Or as we call them, laws of nature

[Nye]
I'm this guy standing on a planet
Really I'm just a speck
Compared with a star, the planet is just another speck
To think about all of this
To think about the vast emptiness of space
There's billions and billions of stars
Billions and billions of specks

[Sagan]
The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it
But the way those atoms are put together
The cosmos is also within us
We're made of star stuff
We are a way for the cosmos to know itself

Across the sea of space
The stars are other suns
We have traveled this way before
And there is much to be learned

I find it elevating and exhilarating
To discover that we live in a universe
Which permits the evolution of molecular machines
As intricate and subtle as we

[deGrasse Tyson]
I know that the molecules in my body are traceable
To phenomena in the cosmos
That makes me want to grab people in the street
And say, have you heard this??

(Richard Feynman on hand drums and chanting)

[Feynman]
There's this tremendous mess
Of waves all over in space
Which is the light bouncing around the room
And going from one thing to the other

And it's all really there
But you gotta stop and think about it
About the complexity to really get the pleasure
And it's all really there
The inconceivable nature of nature

This is simply beautiful. The Symphony of Science: Children of Africa. What a wonderful creation, this mix of music, audio and visuals. More about it here:

The Symphony of Science is a music project created by Washington-based electronic musician John D. Boswell. The project seeks to "spread scientific knowledge and philosophy through musical remixes." Boswell uses pitch-corrected audio and video samples from television programs featuring popular educators and scientists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_of_Science

I will listen to more of the Symphony later. Now to read the lyrics of Children of Africa. They came in a wall of text, so I've split them up and placed emphasis on parts, meaningful to me. This is brilliant as a whole experience:

Man is a singular creature;
He has a set of gifts which make him unique among the animals
So that unlike them, he is not a figure in the landscape
He is the shaper of the landscape

We are all children of Africa
They say this is where it all began
In a parched African landscape
Man first put his foot to the ground

Africa was our only home
for tens of thousands of years
until a small handful of people made their way
out of Africa

These beings with soaring imagination
Eventually flung themselves and their machines
Into interplanetary space

We are all children of africa
This landscape has been home to humans
Two hundred thousand years

We have come so far
All of this is cause for great celebration
We have come so far
This is a story about us
Those early Europeans
Were people like you and me

But it is humbling
When you see the challenges they faced

People like you and me
Overcame the Neanderthals
People like you and me
Made it through the ice age

We are not the only beings
With personalities, minds, and feelings
Chimpanzees have very clear personalities
Take a chimp brain foetally
And let it go two or three more rounds of division
And out comes symphonies and ideology

Everything that we are
That distinguishes us from chimps
Emerges from that one percent
Difference in DNA

People like you and me
Overcame the Neaderthals
People like you and me
Made it through the ice age

Using his burgeoning intelligence,
This most successful of all mammals
Has exploited the environment to produce food
For an ever increasing population.

Instead of controlling the environment
For the benefit of the population
Perhaps it's time we controlled the population
To allow the survival of the environment

With our 'soaring imagination', we've launched into interplanetary space. Small creatures of the universe that we are. We have used and abused our position as shapers of the world. We will reap the rewards.
Some more than others. Is this the harmony of physical and spiritual wellbeing? We have come so far, and now what...will we follow nature and our imagination...to help or harm?

***

I'd like to see and hear more. Five tracks and lyrics from:
https://genius.com/albums/Melodysheep/Best-of-symphony-of-science

Oh, I read that a lifetime ago! Thanks for the pdf link, I might just read it again to see what I think now.

Benjamin Hoff has also translated the TTC (2021), downloadable with photographs. From: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

Thank you for sharing your experience and views. :sparkle:

A few words that caution us about the use of words. — Fooloso4

:smile:
Yes, well.
Perhaps you need to say more. Then again...

It works for me as poetry, evoking a sense of connectedness with both nature and the affairs of humans. It is also a kind of metaphysics, allusive, not determinate. It is about unknowing more than it it is about knowing—metaphysics is not and can never be a science, but it is an inspiring activity as it is so closely allied with the arts. — Janus

Yes. I see and appreciate that aspect. The arts are an important way for humans to connect. Our stories, paintings, songs...for, from and in all ages.

The Dao has long been associated in my mind with the Dharma, and most particularly as the Dharma is evoked by the great Zen teachers—Dogen, Hui Hai, Han Shan, and my favorite modern Zen text: Zen MInd, Beginners Mind by Suzuki. — Janus

I think they are closely linked. Meditation and going with the flow? Finding harmony.

I also associate it with the teachings of the Stoics, the Epicureans and Spinoza—I mean I think it is coming from the same place of radical acceptance of those things which are beyond our control. The Dao, like Spinoza's "deus siva natura' has no concern for humans, and to live well we must bow to the greater power. — Janus

Yes. Acceptance up to a point. There is a tipping point where action must be taken. I don't agree with the passivity associated with bowing to greater powers.

Not sure I would be brave enough to form part of a war resistance movement.
However, I think that active courage in holding fast to certain values derives from desperate situations and hope for a better future. Even basic survival.

Thanks for sharing. :sparkle:

This is one of the first verses that grabbed me in Mitchell's translation - really opened my eyes. — T Clark

I remember you saying it was your favourite part.
I remember looking at other translations and Mitchell's was only one with a focus on the word or concept of 'Hope'.

It has stuck with me, so that says something.

Perhaps, it is related to individual experiences, readings and understanding of 'hope' in real life and literature. Not to mention the philosophical concept.

The importance of the arts and being positive or creative when everything seems to be going to hell and back. The need for hope in seemingly hopeless situations, as in the devastations of war. To rise above the darkness.

I know there are different kinds of hope. So, a wide spectrum to consider.
I reject Mitchell's reductive and dogmatic translation/ interpretation.

Whether or not it is "authentic," I think it get's right to the heart of what Lao Tzu was trying to say in a way that's more concrete than other versions. — T Clark

I am not sure what lies at the heart of Lao Tzu's text.
From the little I've read, the core message seems to be to live in harmony with the Tao. A guide to the art of living.To live in goodness and integrity.

All that is fine. However, this doesn't mean that hope is hollow.
Hope has content. We might hope that we come to understand the Tao.
How much would it matter if we didn't. It depends.
What matters is that humans have agency.
To believe or not.
To act or not.
To be or not.

Following one way, is not the only way.
How does one's belief show in actions and behaviour related to self and others?

We don't all act in accordance with the Word of Man as God or Universal Power.
Or any ancient text laying down prescriptive, unchanging rules or practice.

All of this is open to question. Why we are here. To listen and respond with care.
To hope that we help more than harm. In all spheres of life and beyond.

I think I can relate the TTC to Stoicism.
The Serenity Prayer, but without God.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and Wisdom to know the difference.

I think this shows respect for both the Tao and the 10,000 things, which represent the multiplicity of distinctions in our everyday world. Humanity is one of the 10,000 things. — T Clark

I agree. It is also one of the 4 great things.

The Jane English version:
Therefore, “Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The human being is also great.”
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the human being is one of them. — Amity

The Jane English version is objectively superior to Stephen Mitchell's version. I am aware that I said something controversial in the previous sentence. — Arcane Sandwich

I agree but it is subjective as well as objective. My first book was that of Mitchell's. It appealed to me, aesthetically. However, I grew to dislike it. And this was after taking an objective look.
What is being said. How it is said. It takes distance to do this. And more than one read.

Sorry, this is going a bit offtrack, away from Twenty-five. I took exception to his translation of Thirteen:

13
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things. — Terebess - Mitchell trans. of Tao Te Ching

I've just read the translation by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English (left unchanged in the update).

Thirteen

Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."

What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.
— Terebess - Translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English

Controversial, or otherwise, I think the TTC can be read both subjectively and objectively. For the feel, the sense. The wisdom, the sense. The whole and the parts. From whatever life perspective.

The Jane English version is "more ancient", more "ancestral" in its expressions. — Arcane Sandwich

I don't know that I would describe it as 'ancestral'. For me, it says more in a way that is comprehensible.
It is more present, personal, open and flexible. Questions and answers. "What do you mean by...?" Compared to "What does it mean that...?"
I think there is a better flow in and between the sentences. But that's just my opinion.
That 'works' for me, in my process of understanding.

I appreciate that other translators/readers don't think the same. And that is fair enough. And necessary.
I haven't analysed or experienced the TTC as much as some. Just taking it bit by bit. So far, so good.

I do not. Your contributions to this thread are substantive and greatly appreciated. — Arcane Sandwich

I'm glad to be part of a worthwhile discussion. Your OP motivated me to take another look at the TTC.

I hadn't come across the translation by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989.

Thank you for the introduction. It's wonderful. I'm curious. Why choose that one? Out of so many.

If it doesn't work for you, that's no surprise. It doesn't work for lots of people. It works for me.
— T Clark

Cheers T Clark, it actually does work for me. It and the Bhagavad Gita are two of my favorite texts. — Janus

I'm curious. How does it 'work' for you? From what perspective or belief? How meaningful is it in your everyday experience? The actual practice of Taoism or reading/interpreting the TTC?

Twenty-five

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

I need to revise what is meant by the Tao as it corresponds to Nature, related to humanity.
Turning to wiki:

The Tao or Dao[note 1] is the natural way of the universe, primarily as conceived in East Asian philosophy and religion. This seeing of life cannot be grasped as a concept. Rather, it is seen through actual living experience of one's everyday being.

Theconcept is represented by the Chinese character 道, which has meanings including 'way', 'path', 'road', and sometimes 'doctrine' or 'principle'.[1]

In the Tao Te Ching, the ancient philosopher Laozi explains that the Tao is not a name for a thing, but the underlying natural order of the universe whose ultimate essence is difficult to circumscribe because it is non-conceptual yet evident in one's being of aliveness.
The Tao is "eternally nameless" and should be distinguished from the countless named things that are considered to be its manifestations, the reality of life before its descriptions of it.

The word "Tao" has a variety of meanings in both the ancient and modern Chinese language. Aside from its purely prosaic use meaning road, channel, path, principle, or similar,[2] the word has acquired a variety of differing and often confusing metaphorical, philosophical, and religious uses.

In most belief systems, the word is used symbolically in its sense of "way" as the right or proper way of existence, or in the context of ongoing practices of attainment or of the full coming into being, or the state of enlightenment or spiritual perfection that is the outcome of such practices. — Wiki - Tao

So, how we read and interpret words in a passage is important. Engaging with others who have different beliefs or perspectives is important. Reaching agreement in everything is not possible or probably not even desirable. What matters is how we engage. To show respect and not to be dismissive. To reach the best kind of understanding possible.

***

To return to the beginning:

Tao as the 'natural way of the universe'. Is it? What is the universe?
How amazing, and terrifying, is our progress. Zooming out:

The universe is everything. It includes all of space, and all the matter and energy that space contains. It even includes time itself and, of course, it includes you. — Nasa Science - What is the Universe?

However, we are so, sooo far away from the Main Topic (Chapter 25 of the Tao Te Ching), that first and foremost, some ambience is required to get back to the Main Topic.

Therefore, I share the following song with the intention (I intend it as such) of getting back to Chapter 25 of the Tao Te Ching: — Arcane Sandwich

Nothing quite like a bit of ambience. I hope you don't mind but I'd like to share the harmony of singer/musicians playing tribute to George Harrison and 'All Things Must Pass':


“All Things Must Pass,” the title song of George Harrison’s 1970 triple album, was inspired by Timothy Leary’s poem All Things Pass, an adaptation of the Tao Te Ching. The Beatles rehearsed the song in January 1969 but did not include it on the Let It Be album. Billy Preston was the first to release the song, as “All Things (Must) Pass,” in 1970.

All Things Pass
by Timothy Leary

All things pass
A sunrise does not last all morning
All things pass
A cloudburst does not last all day
All things pass
Nor a sunset all night
All things pass
What always changes?

Earth . . . sky . . . thunder . . .
mountain . . . water . . .
wind . . . fire . . . lake . . .

These change
And if these do not last

Do man's visions last?
Do man's illusions?

Take things as they come

All things pass


Translation:
Language: English
Author of original: Lao Tzu — All Things Pass - Timothy Leary

https://www.poemhunter.com/lao-tzu-2/

OK, so the translations contradict one another. How do you know which is correct, or considering what I said just above, how can there be a correct and incorrect at all? — Janus

I have argued that the text, being poetical, does not have one true interpretation — Janus

Yes. There are many translations and interpretations. Different approaches and readings.
From: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

***

I'm currently working on the Jane English updated version but still keep others in mind.

Downloadable with photographs and script.
2011 Edition - with over 100 photos

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html — Amity

***

Twenty-five

The human being follows the earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural. — Jane English

It's interesting to consider what is meant by 'follow'. Some see this as a hierarchy. With the Tao at the top. For example:

Humanity, Earth, Heaven, and the Tao are called the four great powers. There is clearly a hierarchy with the Tao at the top. — T Clark

I see this as one depiction of the hierarchy of steps between the Tao and the king or humankind. — T Clark

Here, there seems to be a separation between vertical levels. 'Low' humans, portrayed as basic, climbing upwards to reach the Taoist Way. Perhaps, an eternal return. I like to think that humans form part of Nature's cycle. We 'follow' as in accompany. So, the form or structure is more of a circle than a ladder.

As humans we are part of nature, we can honour it, or not. We can listen to music, hear the birdsong or that created by humans. For whatever reason. We follow, or flow with, the circle of life and its seasons. The 'power' element variable. Being or doing 'great' is wide-ranging. In a colourful and creative spectrum.

The Jane English version:

Therefore, “Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The human being is also great.”
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the human being is one of them.

***

To return to the circle. As depicted in the Yin-Yang symbol:

Here is the Tao that can be told, and it shows the eternal Tao (the Tao that cannot be told) — Arcane Sandwich

[The Yin-Yang symbol is inserted ]

***
Further information:

Taoist Cosmology. How do Yin and Yang relate to qi (chi), the Tao, and the Five Elements? This is Taoism's story of the creation and maintenance and continuous transformation of the universe.

Taoist practitioners enter into a "path of return"—a movement from the myriad things of the world back into wuji. The Immortals, or those who have entered the Tao, are those who have completed this "path of return."

Yin Qi and Yang Qi give birth to the Five Elements, whose various combinations produce the Ten-Thousand-Things.

The operation of the Five Elements can be seen within the human body, within an ecosystem, or within any other living system. When the elements of a system are in balance, the cycles of generation and control function to both nourish and contain one another. When the elements are out of balance, they "overact" on and/or "insult" one another. — Learn Religions - 8 important Taoist Visual Symbols

From Jane English:

Yin-Yang and The Ten Thousand Things

The traditional yin-yang (feminine/dark-masculine/light) symbol below shows a bit of yin in yang and of yang in yin. A phrase that appears often in Tao Te Ching is “the ten-thousand things,” as in this excerpt from that book:

Tao begot one
One begot two
Two begot three
And three begot the ten-thousand things.
The ten-thousand things carry yin and embrace yang
They achieve harmony by combining these forces
— Tao Te Ching, Chapter 42

This image below, Yin, Yang and the Ten-Thousand Things, came to me in meditation around 1988. It shows yin-yang opening up and bringing forth their rainbow children, all of creation, the “ten-thousand things.”

[Image]

Expanding on that traditional symbol and rather than seeing yin and yang as opposites, we can realize a co-creative balance of masculine yang and feminine yin in our lives, so that their children, the rainbow of our creativity, the ten-thousand things, can be born.

Tao may be found not only in the undivided ground of being, nor solely in the polarity of yin and yang, dark and light, dynamic and receptive, but also everywhere in the full rainbow spectrum of the ten-thousand things: all the myriad ways the un-nameable whole is divided into discrete beings.
—from page 16 in the book A Rainbow of Tao — Tao - Earth Heart Blog - Jane English

***

Anyway. I have no interest in attempting to engage with you further. — Janus

I hope you can continue to engage with the text. Even if you just read along...
I've returned to the TTC, after a prolonged break. Sometimes, we need that. :sparkle:

Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The king is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them.
— Lao Tzu (Laozi)

The King is one of them. Who is to say that the King is not the Great Chinggis Khaan? — Arcane Sandwich

Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora? — Arcane Sandwich

Jane English:

Therefore, “Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The human being is also great.”
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the human being is one of them.

The human being follows the earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural. — Amity

Now Jane English and her long-time editor, Toinette Lippe, have refreshed and revised the translation, so that it more faithfully reflects the Classical Chinese in which it was first written, while taking into account changes in our own language and eliminating any lingering infelicities. [...] Also included is an introduction by the well-known writer and scholar of philosophy and comparative religion, Jacob Needleman. — Amazon - Tao Te Ching: Illustrated Edition: With Over 150 Photographs

You can read a sample. It includes a fascinating Foreword by Toinette Lippe.

Who says that it's just poetry? It can be science instead. Be cooperative, instead of intentionally trying to cause a disturbance in this Thread. I am the author of the OP and I am formally requesting you to be less disruptive. In other words, I'm giving you a "yellow card", a "warning", if you will. — Arcane Sandwich

I think you misinterpret @Janus's intentions. There is no disruption, here. Simply a questioning spirit.

About Jane English:

Jane English, born 1942 in Massachusetts, is a photographer, artist, and author who holds a doctorate in particle physics.

English received her B.A. in physics from Mount Holyoke College in 1964 and Ph.D. from the University of Wisconsin–Madison for her work in high energy particle physics. She taught courses in Oriental thought and modern physics at Colorado College.[1]

English collaborated on a translation of the Tao Te Ching of Laozi which she illustrated through photography, in collaboration with her spouse Gia-Fu Feng. — Wiki - Jane English

Happy 2025 :sparkle:

I listened to some of your compilation of originals and the Beatles over Christmas. :cool:
Last night, I was awake at 01.30hrs - a bit troubled. Tuned in again...

George Harrison's All Things Must Pass - will always soothe.
The Concert for George with his son, Dhani, amidst all those great musicians, playing with heart and soul, together - is so touching. The unspoken words passing between them as they look, play and sing.

As always, thank you! :pray: :flower: :sparkle:

Thank you for starting this thread.
For me, I think it is time to read and reflect again.

I note that there is a new edition. Downloadable with photographs and script.
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

The Tao Te Ching
by Lao Tzu
Source: The Complete Tao Te Ching
Translated by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989
First Vintage Books edition, 1972
2011 Edition - with over 100 photos

Twenty-five

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name.
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great.

Being great, it flows.
It flows far away.
Having gone far, it returns.

Therefore, “Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The human being is also great.”
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the human being is one of them.

The human being follows the earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural.

From p50/162 of the pdf. Beautiful. Artistic and poetic.

I'm getting into the idea. I think I have a topic picked out already. — hypericin

Fantastico! :cool:

But I'm ready to give them up if most people prefer a common topic. — Vera Mont

You do you, Vera! The topic is of your own choice. Looking forward. :smile:

I'd think that an essay actually completes a thought or presents a whole argument or tells a story or is in some sense a self-contained peice of writing meant to be presented as a whole for a reader. — Moliere

Yes.

Whereas a thread can do that, it's really just about having a conversation at all and needn't conclude or be self-contained and can wander more. — Moliere

A typical discussion thread involves the author right from the get go.
This can affect the responses. The author also has to maintain the thread, responding directly, sometime immediately to other participants.

Here, the anonymous essay, article or philosophy writing is read and evaluated without bias. The focus is on the ideas and how well they are expressed. How they are understood or interpreted.

Feedback is given by readers and other authors.
A conversation takes place without input/interference by the author.
Until...The Reveal! :scream:

@Moliere

Reflecting further on this:

I think we should stick to the decision. People can either pick up the topic of 'Imagination' or do their own thing. — Amity

I think it is best not to complicate matters in the Guidelines.
Voting just prolongs the agony!

Having an Open Topic gives most leeway.

Thanks for showing an interest. :smile:

So far, the Guidelines will be posted by @Moliere on Feb1st. This will include the deadline for submissions as June 1st.

@Arne Edited:
Also, a poll to vote on the topic.
1. Open topic
2. Imagination
3. No preference

Topic: Open

Hope this helps you decide?

presumably the third optioners are fine with either outcome. — Moliere

Yes.

I was thinking to use the poll option which the forum has and then going with whatever side gets more votes -- so option 1 is "Open topic" and option 2 is "Imagination", and whichever category gets more votes on the forum poll is the one we'd decide upon. — Moliere

Ah, OK. And an option 3 for those who don't care either way?!

Yay! :cool:

It sounded like you wanted it later? — Moliere

Yes, I did. However, it's important that the authors get time to respond.
The 15th, then.

the list of authors could be posted in a separate thread?
A day or so, for speculation, before the reveal.

So, the author list would go up on the 15th. When revealed, the authors can take part. Responding to feedback on their individual threads.

When' is "the end" ? — Moliere

Good question. The formal Lit Activity is unstickied about a month after the start. However, the stories are left open for comment...

Perhaps the last day in June. The 30th?
The discussion mid-way. The 15th?

along with a "Discussion/Guess the author" overall thread, the way I'm thinking it. — Moliere

No. Not at the same time. It distracts from reading the entries.

In the Lit. Activity, guessing started about 17dys after the start.
That was the Goldilocks option. I prefer it to wait until the end.

Perhaps with the guidelines we could also submit a poll for preferences? — Moliere

It's an idea but not sure how it would work. Would it be anonymous?
If authors are identified, then that might give the game away. I think we should stick to the decision. People can either pick up the topic of 'Imagination' or do their own thing.

I read over the Literary Activity guidelines and I think I'd pretty much copy them verbatim with a changes in dates (and the topic of course), and maybe add in a mini-tutorial for pastebin for those that need the walk through. — Moliere

OK. :up:
So, does that mean we are having 2 extra threads? 1.Guess the Author 2. Favourites?

The jury is still out on the latter. Only about 50% of the authors participated. No readers.

I suggested a single 'Meet the Authors' thread . It would incorporate both. @Baden is mulling it over. It's all a bit experimental at this stage.

I've been wondering about the Favourites and the Guessing Game threads.

I get the impression that only a few are willing to list favourites and give reasons.
The 'Guess the Author' thread received a bit more attention.
They work OK-ish for a fiction activity where most authors/readers already know each other.
[Not sure that would work for the June event.]

Perhaps, a single thread where authors and readers leave their overall impressions?

Time line from the Lit Activity suggests that after about 17dys reading and feedback, people are keen to know about the authors. Perhaps this is when the list of authors could be posted in a separate thread?
A day or so, for speculation, before the reveal.

Do you think that this separate thread could incorporate both, evolving into a relaxed conversation?
If so, what would we call it ?

Brainstorming:

'Story Discussion'. 'The Author Encounter'. 'Writer/Reader Get Together'. 'Authors and Readers Unite'.
Finally, I got 'Meet the Authors'. Hmmm...

To me, this becomes more interesting with a single topic everyone writes about, i.e. "Imagination". — hypericin

I agree. But the consensus was that people would participate more if the topic was left open. *shrugs*

It would be interesting to see how varied everyone's approach is, and how much richness there really is in the topic. — hypericin

Exactly this. From a wide spectrum of perspectives.

every writer deeply engages with the same topic, and only after everyone has written do they come together and discuss each other's take — hypericin

It is designed to be as interactive as the Literary Activity. The idea is to challenge ourselves, as you say, to dig deep. Or some will already be comfortable.

Similar to the Literary Activity, each author is initially anonymous. Readers respond to the writing. A discussion initially without the author. Waiting a week or so, depending on amount of entries, before guessing the author.

Authors can participate as readers in threads not their own.

Then, the authors join in their own discussion thread, responding to feedback. Also, engaging with other authors. It should be an exciting interaction, weaving questions, responses and trying to understand the meaning of the text.
Of mutual benefit in a positive engagement.

That's the idea...

I think it's often the case that people find that there are fewer reasons for living than there are reasons for dying. Sometimes those people choose suicide. It's a common enough phenomenon and there might be many reasons for it. It's been interesting to read people's responses to your OP. What are the least helpful answers here?
— Tom Storm

I think the least helpful answers are the ones that insist life has good points or that one is lucky to be alive. That smacks of hindsight bias. I'm not an anti-natalist myself but I find it hard to argue against their claims and reasoning. People who think life is worth living are lucky and shouldn't speak on it's value. — Darkneos

@Tom Storm - that was a good question to ask, after all the different responses are gathered in.
And found wanting.

Most interesting to read @Darkneos reply.

That makes sense. — Tom Storm

And now what?

I agree it makes sense but not sure it is hindsight bias. I think some work hard, every day, to counter life's negativities and real life problems. We don't know what posters have been through, might still be going through. Some have worked out their own best coping mechanisms, others might have had professional help.

I seem to remember you have expertise in this area, or similar.

Do you agree with Darkneos that people who think life is worth living shouldn't speak to its value? Or try to persuade someone. It could be counter-productive, no?

Perhaps, if they are rubbing their good fortune in, like salt to an open wound, I can see it's not helpful.
I can't remember all the responses but I can't recall anyone doing that. Perhaps, its all in the perception.

And not everyone is 'lucky'. Life is what we make it. It's hard work. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Someone once said. But what if there is no will? What then?

You said you were interested to read people's responses. And waited until now to ask a most pertinent question. So, what now? What advice would you give people who only want to help?
Is it even possible to make a satisfactory logical argument in this kind of situation?

What are the main causes of suicide in young people?
And how can they be addressed?

What does it mean to say, "Life is worth living"? or "Lucky to be alive"?
It doesn't always seem like it is, or we are, does it? Even for those perceived as 'lucky'.

It depends on so many circumstances that we have no control over.
Which philosophy or psychology coping strategy is the most helpful, in your opinion?

In the Northern hemisphere this is the shortest day, longest night. The hours of daylight will start to increase. Some celebrate this: "Happy Winter Solstice!".

But the days are still dark and dreich. Lack of sunlight can bring mood right down.
People making merry, when you are feeling low, can make you feel worse.
Loneliness is felt. Not only by the young.

Is this when most suicides are committed?

What changes would make someone's life more bearable?

Oldies and Some Goodies — 180 Proof

My, can't wait to dip into this bag of goodies. Just what I need, right now :up: :flower:

The way the suicide discussion is so often carried out in Western culture (what little there is of such discussion, that is) is that all the blame is conveniently placed on the person who killed themselves or seems to want to, along with calling them mentally ill, selfish, etc. While it is somehow considered bad taste to point out how others may have contributed to the suicide, or even caused it. — baker

Thank you for sharing your experience of 'the suicide discussion'.

I don't see any blame or name-calling being attached to anyone here. It's been instructive, even if responses have been repeatedly dismissed.
Most have been patient but there is a limit.

All that talk of love, empathy, compassion. And yet, it is somehow always other people who should be the first to practice love, empathy, compassion, and never those who preach them. — baker

'All that talk' - 'those who preach them'.
I talked about a lot more than that. There was no preaching. It concerned the lack of empathy and its effects on a person and their relationships.

Like others, I took time, listened, asked questions, provided other perspectives which were ignored.

I will leave this thread for the time being. Another TPF Activity beckons. :sparkle:

Great term--existential vacuum. — BC

Yes. From the Guardian article linked earlier, glad you enjoyed it.

The sharing of life experiences - such as you have done here - is so valuable. To hear the stories. Life wisdom passed on. Sometimes too late. If I knew then, what I know now. Yup.

Now what? It took me years to fill the vacuum but I did, several times over. — BC

You've had your share of challenges, and finding your way through them.
Great to have you here to tell the tale.

I never had a 10yr plan. It took me a bit of trial and error to eventually find something I had thought not for me. But hey...

I find it strange that I'm still in the process of discovering mysel. I've never contemplated suicide but have felt like I didn't want to go on. I imagine most people go through similar.

Chronic, clinical depression is a whole other ballgame. Glad to know yours is well controlled with medication.

I saved some of the comments from the article, including this. Note, it isn't about a vacuum but a change.

we all, at different stages and ages, reach the point of existential change, and rarely does it occur at a time when we are ready to embrace it. The trick is to allow it to happen and use it as the opportunity it really is, to become who we really are.,

To see the potential in an apparent problem. Not always easy.
To become who we really are. To find a hidden talent.
For some, it can take a lifetime...
Enjoy the ride! :flower:

And yes. This:

We must be careful how we talk to ourselves: if a lot of our internal dialogue is about the pointless, meaninglessness of life, suicide as a solution, and so on -- we are -- at the very least -- sowing the seeds of more unhappiness, if not our death. — BC