wonderer

Kenning-comprehender — wonderer1

Kenning-kenner?

I took a Tolkien class in college, and one of the things discussed was Tolkien's work on Beowulf. I can't say I remembered the word "kenning", but I was familiar with such use of language in Old English poetry, and such. — wonderer1

Awesome! I have under-appreciated Tolkien, OE poetry, not to mention the Greek Odes. 'and such'? Perhaps not much of a hero worshipper?
The wiki article, linked to earlier, fascinated me. The different views and arguments, not unlike philosophy. Tolkien, amazingly, used both prose and poetry and had clear views on translation:

Tolkien noted that whatever a translator's preferences might be, the ancients such as the Beowulf poet had chosen to write of times already long gone by, using language that was intentionally archaic and sounding poetic to their audiences. Thus, Tolkien explains, the poet uses beorn and freca to mean "warrior" or "man", this last a usage already then restricted to heroic poetry; at the time, beorn was a variant of the word for bear, just as freca was another word for wolf, and the audience expected and enjoyed hearing such words in the special circumstance of a performance by a scop.

The poet used high-sounding language to represent the heroic in the distant past. Tolkien therefore advised the translator to do the same, choosing verbs like "strike" and "smite" rather than "hit" or "whack", nouns like "guest" rather than "visitor", adjectives like "courteous" instead of "polite". His versions of Beowulf's voyage to Heorot in prose and verse, the latter in strictest Anglo-Saxon alliteration and metre[c] (with Tolkien's markup of metrical stresses), are:

Tolkien's high-sounding language, meant to echo the Beowulf poet's diction:

1. Beowulf 217-227 2. Tolkien's 1940 verse in "On Translating Beowulf"[d][37] 3. Tolkien's 1926 prose (176–185) in Beowulf: A Translation and Commentary[38]

1.
Gewat þa ofer wǣgholm | winde gefysed
flota famiheals | fugle gelicost,
oð þæt ymb antid | oþres dogores
wundenstefna | gewaden hæfde,
þæt ða liðende | land gesawon,
brimclifu blican, | beorgas steape,
side sænæssas; | þa wæs sund liden,
eoletes æt ende. | þanon up hraðe
Wedera lēode | on wang stigon,
sæwudu sældon,— | syrcan hrysedon,
guðgewædo;

2.
She wènt then over wáve-tòps, | wínd pursúed her,
fléet, fóam-thròated | like a flýing bírd;
and her cúrving prów | on its cóurse wáded,
till in dúe séason | on the dáy áfter
those séafàrers | sáw befóre them
shóre-cliffs shímmering | and shéer móuntains,
wíde cápes by the wáves: | to wáter's énd
the shíp had jóurneyed. | Then ashóre swíftly
they léaped to lánd, | lórds of Góthland,
bóund fást their bóat. | Their býrnies ráttled,
grím géar of wár.

3.
Over the waves of the deep she went sped by the wind,
sailing with foam at throat most like unto a bird,
until in due hour upon the second day her curving beak
had made such way that those sailors saw the land,
the cliffs beside the ocean gleaming,
and sheer headlands and capes thrust far to sea.
Then for that sailing ship the journey was at an end.
thence the men of the Windloving folk climbed swiftly up the beach,
and made fast the sea-borne timbers of their ship;
their mail-shirts they shook, their raiment of war.
— Wiki - Translating Beowulf

I numbered them because the 3 parallel texts didn't transfer well to TPF format.
Interesting to compare. For a quick understanding of the story, perhaps prose is better. It's more direct and not so much of a puzzle. However, it loses something of the compactness and the alliteration and kennings pulled me in at the start:
She wènt then over wáve-tòps, wínd pursúed her,
fléet, fóam-thròated like a flýing bírd;

I tend to write poetry every day, but my poems are short and ambiguous, very similar to haiku. I'm even still writing haiku. — javi2541997

You make it sound easy and ordinary, like taking breakfast! I usually prefer short and sweet to long and winding. But that might be about to change, since reading more about Beowulf.

It is the only way I can express how I feel. I think it would be impossible for me to describe how a sunset* feels otherwise. I only write in Spanish, but I dream that I will be able to write in English in the future. It is hard to switch emotions into another language. — javi2541997

Yes, sometimes only one word works for a nationality. Like the Scottish 'dreich', 'wheesht!' or 'scunnert'.

I think translators face major challenges in capturing the sense and emotions of any age or story.
What is the aim? How to achieve it in verse or prose? Direct v indirect phrasings? Old English verse with its strange language - compacting metaphors in kennings - is not to everyone's taste. And is perhaps better to spoken or sung aloud rather than read. I understand that Old English was chanted to string accompaniment.

This article is excellent! It includes excerpts of the original with its meaning unpacked by different translators. Side-by-side showing the effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translating_Beowulf

My time is up. So much more to say...later, all! :sparkle:

Guilty, as charged and point taken — Paine

Ach, I knew ye were being a playful wee deil :naughty:

"the more that things change, the more they stay the same." — Paine

Hey, steady on! We're in danger of falling into the hole of transcendental unity. :monkey:

Alphonse Karr's quote "The more things change, the more they are the same" encapsulates a profound truth about the cyclicality of life and the underlying unity of all things. — Socratic-method - Alphonse Karr - quote meanings and interpretations

Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney's new translation of Beowulf comes to life in this gripping audio. Heaney's performance reminds us that Beowulf, written near the turn of another millennium, was intended to be heard not read.

Composed toward the end of the first millennium of our era, Beowulf is the elegiac narrative of the adventures of Beowulf, a Scandinavian hero who saves the Danes from the seemingly invincible monster Grendel and, later, from Grendel's mother. He then returns to his own country and lives to old age before dying in a vivid fight against a dragon. - HighBridge Audio — Youtube - Joshuas Mirror

Beowulf - Seamus Heaney: Part 1 of 2 - with transcript [handy, if you don't have a spare hour to listen]

:smile: Hey, man! How ya hangin'? Did ye ken aboot kennings?

Anyway, thanks to the vast and wonderful work of translating by Borges, I started to read and flowing my imagination around. I'd like to feel free and open to interpretation while reading kennings. — javi2541997

Yes, like you, I continue to be fascinated by interpretation and translation :nerd:
Have you considered writing a kenning poem?
Translators of Ancient Languages deserve a medal for passion, work and mastery. I wonder what kenning could be created for the word 'translator'? Hmm...

An Old English epic keeps cropping up - Beowulf. So many types of translation. Here's a list of kennings from Seamus Heaney’s version:

Kennings for King

Ring-giver
Treasure-giver
Gold-giver
Homeland’s guardian
Guardian of the ring-hoard
Gold-friend to retainers
Shepherd of people

The first monster that Beowulf slays is Grendel, referred to as:

Hall-watcher
Corpse-maker
Shadow-stalker
Hell-brute

Beowulf has to face Grendel’s mother, a creature called:

Hell-bride
Hell-dam
Tarn-hag
Swamp-thing from hell
Terror-monger
— Old English Kennings

Culture — I like sushi

Thanks for opening another can of worms: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/culture

I wonder now if' stuff' is a bad word to express or refer to something. I am realising that I am using stuff' a lot while I interact with you, mates. I understand that it is not too important to express myself in a perfect manner, yet I guess that maybe I sound 'repetitive' in most of my posts and answers. — javi2541997

Oh, what a load of stuff and nonsense! OK. I use 'stuff' a lot, too. I like using it. It's what we are made of.

I think the word 'mate' can grate, just like the word 'friend' can offend. Or 'pal' can appal. It's like, man, people trying too hard to be part of a crowd, man.

We can be in danger of over-thinking and becoming too sensitive...that can be good or bad. Depending.
If I worry about being perfect (an impossibility!), then my mind would seize up :gasp:

We don't refer to worms but to mice to refer to that noun. We say: ratón de biblioteca — javi2541997

Another thing I didn't know. Ain't language cool, mate :cool:
Sure is, man :up:

The culture "war" happening here is happening everywhere. — Paine

Well, it could be argued that so-called 'culture wars' have been happening since time immemorial.

We solve it together or fall under the same sword. — Paine

Poetically drastic. How 'together' can the human race be?

Societal and religious divisions are all part and parcel of political battles as to who is right or best to lead a country. Even the term 'cultural war' is disputed:

Politicians like to provoke them, academics like to analyse them. Yet most people don’t even know what they’re all about.
[...]
Dominic Sandbrook: “What is certainly true,” he says, “is there are moments in history when disputes about history, identity, symbols, images and so on loom very large. Think about so much of 17th-century politics, for example, when people would die over the wording of a prayer book.” The same applies, he believes, to any number of periods, including the arrival of the permissive society in the 1960s, in which there is an attempt to establish new mores.

For Holland, the term culture war has a stricter meaning, relating to the German word Kulturkampf, which described the clash between Bismarck’s government and the Catholic church in 1870s Prussia. It is therefore specifically a dispute between religious and secular forces. Certainly if we look at America, where the modern incarnation of the culture wars was first identified, the conflicts over abortion and gay marriage have been fought, at least by one side, from an explicitly religious perspective. — Guardian - Social History - Culture wars

Hola, Javi, y muchas gracias :smile:

I am currently reading Borges, and he dedicated a chapter for reviewing 'kennings'...If you don't mind, Amity, I'd like to share a kenning I read before: — javi2541997

I'm very happy that you shared your reading and introduced something new to me, and probably others.

I am not very informed or acknowledged on Icelandic and Old Nordic poetry, so it is a bit difficult for me to follow some details and descriptions. — javi2541997

Yes, it's difficult to follow. However, I discovered that kennings are not only found in Old Nordic poetry.
Excellent information from: https://www.litcharts.com/literary-devices-and-terms/kenning

I remember the phrase 'rosy-fingered dawn' but it seems that is more of an 'epithet'?
I read here that 'the kenning form still has resonance today and crops up even when people are not purposely thinking up kennings.'

Strangely enough that reminded me of Il Postino, a film I started watching last night.
The postman and the poet, Neruda, are sitting together on a beach watching the ocean. Neruda spontaneously reacts with poetry (or perhaps he is reciting from memory). As the postman (Mario) listens in awe to a poem about the ocean, so do we. It comes easy. We feel and see the effect it has.
After Neruda finishes, Mario tells him:

“I felt like a boat tossing about on those words.”

The poet smiles. “You’ve invented a metaphor.”

“But it doesn’t count because I didn’t mean to,” Mario says.

“Meaning to is not important,” the poet says.

***
Some people don't need to be taught about poetry. They simply have it within, without knowing the terms. Sometimes, help is needed to bring out the creativity. I love to hear about how children can learn.
https://poetry4kids.com/lessons/how-to-write-a-kenning-poem/

***

Reflecting on the ambiguity of the brief poem above, most experts on Scandinavian literature and poetry agreed that 'the heather of the field of the cod' means seaweed. Fascinating, isn't it? This kind of poetry is helping me to improve my imagination. — javi2541997

It is indeed fascinating. How do I say 'book-worm' in Spanish? :wink:

Thanks for your response. :sparkle:

People have different limits of what they are ready to do in sudden events. Some by training, some by instinct...I figure our response is something we do not know ourselves. — Paine

Yes. Most think they have boundaries - drawing the line - which they would not cross in any event. Certain long-held positions and beliefs in place ready and waiting to be tested. Including bias and prejudice. I agree we might not always know how we would actually respond to sudden events. You would think that we might come prepared by exercises in 'What if...?' Or having perspectives/judgements when reading stories, real life or fiction.

Intuition or instinct often takes over when there is no time to think. What to do when you see someone in trouble in fast-flowing river or a wild sea. Would you jump in to save a dog, your dog?

We have patterns of thought, ways of looking at the world and judge ourselves and others. So, usual responses are pretty well known. Even if a white, male, American Christian does not act like we might expect or hope...

Earlier, I wrote:

I note this has been placed under 'Ethics', so is it a case that our behaviour to others reflects, is related to our taste and liking (aesthetics)? Are we more forgiving of friends than those we perceive as being hostile to us. Happier when we find beauty within and give expression to that in a smile, laughter and hope. Compared to feeling bad when we sense an ugly, mean spirit expressing hate?

Do you believe the balance between our focus on the positives and negatives has an optimal state or are we necessarily in various states of flux regarding how we regard others?
— I like sushi

I think humans are necessarily in a state of flux, depending on mood and circumstances. And what we digest - reading, listening, looking and learning, eating and drinking. If there is an intake imbalance, then our output might likewise be affected. The more we can be open to another perspective, no matter our 'likes/dislikes', the more we might understand and less likely to become unlovely, narrow-minded bigots. — Amity

The more we read of 'Americans' and their political/judicial system, the more we shake our heads.
But there is more than one kind of 'American'. Some voices are never heard or aren't recognised. It's scary to see the anger and violence that results. Always simmering under the surface. With guns, loved, polished and used. Beautiful to some, they symbolise individual control and believed to be a God-given right.

Back to the underlined above. @I like sushi, you didn't respond. There seems to be a path from aesthetics to ethics. Seeing people as 'lovely', or not. Loved or hated. The basis of how well they are treated. How practices are unjust towards those not favoured. The unforgiving good v bad.

I was thinking that writing that down might help me get out of the mental state I was in. I can't say it worked as I was hoping it might, — wonderer1

Yes. It probably takes more than a single poem to work wonders on a troubled mind.
However, it is effective. And you know that it's about more than you. There's the writer-reader relationship. I read it and felt the persisting, personal pain of the past and present...how memories can fade but yet flashbacks won't let you forget. It's mental.

[...] I see Michael in Patty's arms.
He is near a year old.
As Patty approaches though the crowd of strangers Jeff reaches out to take his son from his wife,
but Michael has spotted me,
and reaches out to be held,
by me.

But there is so much emptiness in this space now.
Thirty eight years,
and I only see bits and pieces of one.
Many of the bits are so faded,
amidst those that seem indelible in this space. — wonderer1

They say that time heals...
It made me think of war-time PTSD. And the WWI soldier/poets.
https://www.historyhit.com/culture/influential-poets-of-world-war-one/

I noted the contribution by a war-time nurse, Vera Brittain, who wrote her experiences into a poetry collection describing how little recognition the women at the front received.

This 'lack of recognition' is part of the pain. I've just listened to an audio book, 'The Women' by Kristen Hannah. It tells the story of a young nurse who served in the Vietnam War. How badly the soldiers and nurses were treated by the public - and some family - on return.

The use of drugs and alcohol - the process of recovery. I don't think such events can ever be forgotten but life moves on...it's mental. War. What is it good for...? Now, there's a question...

Thanks for the pointer. There is much to TPF that I haven't explored. — wonderer1

Yes, well. The 'hidden' is sometimes worth looking for...

Familiarity breeds ... "bizarre and beautiful spider" bites. — 180 Proof

Contempt with familiarity. I can see this in close long-term relationships when boredom sets in. Or everyday life with no obvious heroism. But the ordinary can be extraordinary.

Do you find that the more you know about someone/something that it leads to a loss of respect? Not valued as much as the initial impact on senses and intelligence?

Would you look for more excitement - an exotic bite that could kill ya'?

What about the closeness of family? Your Mum. She might bore you to death with her memories and repetition of stories but does that lead to contempt? Perhaps just fleeting if love still there...

Just as in philosophy, we read and respond to the same old questions and responses. But a love persists. We can re/engage by using imagination/creativity, building on tradition to think outside the box. Make it interesting by a turn of the head or eye-swivel.

Or mistaken identity – shock of recognition – (like "seeing a ghost"). Btw, I don't care for musicals — 180 Proof

:smile: A ghost did appear - my ex-husband! Love's sweet dream :smirk:
Musicals. I used to enjoy. Tastes change.
Sorry if I assaulted your (and others') senses with a negative aesthetic experience. But you probably didn't even watch the clip. Cringing is allowed. Without pain, there is no...

BTW, I think more men enjoy musicals than would care to admit - same with love stories :razz:

Thread Title: People Are Lovely

To the degree they are interesting (i.e. unfamiliar), I agree. — 180 Proof

Well, that's an interesting perspective :chin:

The unfamiliar certainly holds its attraction, as can the familiar. Like attracts like. Why we want who or what we want can be a magical mystery.

A bizarre and beautiful spider can be interesting. Right up until it exudes its venom through its fangs.

Your words had a strange effect. I thought: 'strangers across a crowded room'. First Love?
The shimmering image of the South Pacific (50's film) with its themes of romance, prejudice and war.

Some enchanted evening
Someone may be laughin',
You may hear her laughin'
Across a crowded room
And night after night,
As strange as it seems
The sound of her laughter
Will sing in your dreams.

Who can explain it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you reasons,
Wise men never try.

Some enchanted evening - South Pacific

:smile: Gotta love the Marcus but, of course, he's not always right - well, that is my opinion! :sparkle:

What I assume, from ChatGPT, is the formal notion of confirmation bias. It seems that within a context, one can even develop a confirmation bias towards the positives of people. — Shawn

Well, of course! Ain't that what I just said? :wink:

People Are Lovely

In what sense 'lovely'? Beautiful, attractive, pleasant, enjoyable. In a social situation are we easy-going and pleasing in manner? Loved and appreciated for being kind? Careful and caring.

I note this has been placed under 'Ethics', so is it a case that our behaviour to others reflects, is related to our taste and liking (aesthetics)? Are we more forgiving of friends than those we perceive as being hostile to us. Happier when we find beauty within and give expression to that in a smile, laughter and hope. Compared to feeling bad when we sense an ugly, mean spirit expressing hate?

Do you believe the balance between our focus on the positives and negatives has an optimal state or are we necessarily in various states of flux regarding how we regard others? — I like sushi

I think humans are necessarily in a state of flux, depending on mood and circumstances. And what we digest - reading, listening, looking and learning, eating and drinking. If there is an intake imbalance, then our output might likewise be affected. The more we can be open to another perspective, no matter our 'likes/dislikes', the more we might understand and less likely to become unlovely, narrow-minded bigots.

People seem to be attracted to, angered or swayed by, extreme stories in the media. Or just plain celebrity gossip. A daily, if not hourly fix of woe, angst, vicarious excitement.

As an additional and more personal question, do you find it hard to be nice to people? — I like sushi

Sometimes but not generally. It's about caring - not about yourself or what people think or how they look.
Start by being good to yourself. Not giving yourself too much of a hard time. Still that unbeautiful internal voice. Take good care of yourself.

But it's clear that even if we have a lovely garden, it might be a single weed that gets our attention. It stands out from the rest...and needs to be pulled.
Not that weeds are bad! And some wilder gardens can be just as beautiful in their own way.

I don't mention or even notice that every slice of bread is delicious and satisfying, but the odd mouldy crust gets my attention. — unenlightened

Yes, I think that is true. And one of the reasons I try to counterbalance any negativity by at least doubling the positive. Being aware of the pull of negative emotions. Accepting there will be 'low' moods but not dwelling there too long, when possible. Not always easy...

It's somewhere to go in TPF emergencies, but also an optional social space for different kinds of interactions — we'll see if and how that develops. — Jamal

Got it! :up: But still not persuaded to join, thanks. Have fun seeing how things go...best wishes!

But I guess only a few or even nobody is in that forum. The main point is to not leave behind our relationship and keep our data to the extent we could. I don't see the point of joining a random philosophy forum with moderators who are unknown to us, and we will not know how they would welcome us. — javi2541997

Your guess would be wrong. PN has an interesting history - it came with recommendations when I was a student. A long time ago...

NB - I'm not trying to persuade others to move. I understand the reasons for using Discord as a temporary solution for TPF's current problem. Thanks @Jamal and others for clarification.

This is not a 'me' against a 'we'. I happen to know PN, the magazine, the forum, participants and the mods from way back when, under a different name. Like TPF, it provided what I needed 'at that time' (2015 -18). It's not a 'random' forum. It is separate but related to PN proper. I'm looking forward to reading the mags and perhaps participate in any of the article discussions.

As @Baden wrote recently in Feedback: 'we all need to recognize where we are and act accordingly.'

I love TPF and all who sail in her. It still means a lot to me. Best wishes :heart: :sparkle: :flower:

OK. All of this has made me realise how important both philosophy and creativity matter to me.
I was reminded of other options. So, I re-visited 'Philosophy Now' and have subscribed to the magazine.
https://philosophynow.org/shop

I left the PN forum some time ago. Unfortunately, there are only 2 mods there - and it was pretty much an 'anything goes' bar scene. Not sure how it is now. Rick Lewis has more avenues to explore and invest his time in. We will see...

Yay! If all our issues could be so easily solved.

Discord has an article about Understanding and Avoiding Common Scams
https://discord.com/safety/understanding-and-avoiding-common-scams

and a blog updating you on crashes, bugs and fixes:
https://discord.com/blog/discord-patch-notes-august-30-2024

How to Discord
9 Tips for Hanging Out
https://discord.com/blog/9-tips-for-hanging-out-on-discord

I used up my available chances to edit my account, so now I have to wait 3 days. Fine. 3 days, 3 years, whatever. Screw it. — BC

Have fun whenever you get there :pray:

:lol: So damned funny. Now at great risk of dying from laughter.
Worried where this might lead...a nasty bout of Zeuxis-Chrysippusitis? Fuck :mask:

Thanks but all I see is messaging. So, yeah, 'dynamic' just like TPF Shoutbox.
Nothing like:

I prefer to take time to read, think and write calmly and carefully. So, 'more dynamic' holds no attraction. — Amity

Still, worth having as a temporary measure :up:
I doubt I will use it.
OK, must get on with...other stuff. It's been interesting :cool:

It's pretty much the same as this forum, just with a different interface. — fdrake

Can a screenshot be taken so I can see what you're all talking about?

Got ya'! 'Safe and sound' is a good enough expression but it raised my worried eyebrows and blood pressure :smile:

You're right. I didn't realise that some widnae ken whit it ment!

The phrase “out of the woods” is a common English idiom that is used to describe a situation where someone has overcome a difficult or dangerous challenge. This can refer to anything from recovering from an illness or injury, to solving a complex problem, or escaping danger.

Synonyms

Out of danger
Safe and sound
Free from harm
Secure
In the clear
Past the worst
Beyond trouble
In good shape again — Understanding 'out of the woods' idiom

There's a risk that Plush, our current platform, will cease operating before we manage to set up a new forum and move all the data across, so I've tried to ensure the community doesn't fall apart — Jamal

Ah, OK. That makes sense. I had thought that our personal data might be accessed/compromised.
I don't know much about the safe and sound concerns you mentioned when it comes to forums.
Good Luck with sorting things out :sparkle:

'Safe and sound' issues? What happens when the site is down, other than inaccessibility? — Amity

Still concerned about this. What are we at risk from?

Thanks for further explanation and for thinking ahead. Another 'hang out' like Shoutbox is not what I want/need but I know others do. Good idea! :up:

:smile: Well then, I think I can cope :cool:

I have no idea what 'easy dark mode' means! And after reading wiki, it doesn't seem to be a place I want/need to go.

In the event that this website closes, — javi2541997

If the website is in danger of closing down permanently, then perhaps the owner and Admin might consider creating a 'New TPF'? But I know they've been there before and done that...so very well :up: Perhaps it is indeed time for change and something different.

I'm not a fan of voice chat. So, if more TPF participants start to use Discord, then so be it.
Although I enjoy the company and discussions here, I would not be 'devastated' to leave. I've done so many times and survived. I don't think my absence would make all that much of a difference. I've exchanged email addresses with a few.

more dynamic than a forum. — javi2541997

I prefer to take time to read, think and write calmly and carefully. So, 'more dynamic' holds no attraction.

Life goes on. Refreshing. Best wishes to all :sparkle:

The site has been down for a while today and I don’t know if we’re safe and sound yet. It got me thinking we should have somewhere online to gather if that happens again.

So I urge you to join the new TPF Discord server now. Just follow this link and sign up to Discord if you’re not already on it.* — Jamal

'Safe and sound' issues? What happens when the site is down, other than inaccessibility?
Personally, I can cope with a temporary inconvenience without having another online place to gather.

I am not on Discord and I don't think I want to go there. Is it 'safe and sound'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discord

Perhaps others can give feedback as to its benefits for TPF.

I wouldn't wish to start a thread on Murdoch's ideas at this stage due to repetition, but even though this thread has turned into a surreal mix of ideas, hopefully some will see the discussion here. I have been reading the essay'The Sovereignty of Good Over Other Concepts'. — Jack Cummins

No, I wouldn't expect you to start another thread. This one is flowing well with a kaleidoscope of multiple views, ideas and recommendations. It could well go on forever - the Eternal World of Jack and Friends. The thread I had in mind wouldn't be focused on Murdoch's ideas alone. But how they fit in with the bigger picture of...oh...well...Everything :wink:

I really don't know how you manage to read, digest and share so much, so quickly! I already feel overwhelmed but have ordered the hardback 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals' and 'The Nice and the Good' from Abe's 2nd hand bookstore. Only about £3 each with free shipping.

You are fortunate to have such a great library nearby. I've been reading a little about her ideas and writing online. For example https://www.themarginalian.org/2022/03/30/iris-murdoch-against-the-gods/

Includes Links to https://www.themarginalian.org/2019/10/21/iris-murdoch-unselfing/

I enjoy the aspects related to beauty, nature, attention and unselfing. 'The spirit relaxing into our essential nature, sharing existence'. (paraphrasing).
And can hardly believe she took on Plato in her own version of Dialogues! What an imagination.
The short and easy articles include works of art. Enjoy :smile:

*groans* - thanks for heaping yet another onto my pile :roll:

The title makes it seem as dry as dust but I read a short review and it seems she uses her literary gifts to present her ideas clearly and lightly:
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/iris-murdoch/metaphysics-as-a-guide-to-morals/

I am reading the volume of essays by Murdoch, 'Existentialists and Mystics: Writings on Philosophy and Literature', which I was fortunate to find in my local library. There is a lot to read and ponder in it, as it includes a lot of discussion, including a whole section on reading Plato.

One of the important aspects which I am finding in her work is her comparison between the arts and philosophy. This is pertinent in understanding Murdoch because she wrote novels and philosophy, so had experience in both fields. — Jack Cummins

Excellent. Probably deserves a thread of its own. Given my recent explorations into 'The Philosophy of Creativity', I would love a deeper focus on this. I am not likely to start a discussion anytime soon but simply gathering ideas. I think I might have to invest time in this book! :up:

For a lighter way into Iris Murdoch's themes and ideas. Where to start...

'Murdoch wanted her fiction to teach us lessons: often the lesson being about freedom, and how doing what you want will affect those around you.'

Murdoch's The Nice and the Good

Often there’s a balance in Murdoch’s novels between reality and unreality, where prosaic settings are coloured by heightened emotions and exaggerated elements, giving them a fantasy-like flavour. And this may be the novel of Murdoch’s which most draws on traditional fictional styles – a philosophical investigation you can curl up with – but retains all of her individuality. — The Booker Prizes - A Guide to Iris Murdoch's Best Novels

I haven't read it but it sounds good!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nice_and_the_Good

I will try to read more of Murdoch. So far. she seems to be engaged with very 20nth century problems. As a student of classical Greek literature, this is no advance in understanding the way views of the soul changed over time. — Paine

Murdoch wrote that in a sense it is true that philosophy makes no progress. From:

Iris Murdoch, Philosopher: A Collection of Essays - Reviewed.

This collection is a milestone in the history of Murdoch scholarship. It seeks to establish "that Murdoch is of importance and interest to the same people as read the moral philosophy of Kant and Plato or Philippa Foot and John McDowell". [...]

I am delighted by the increasingly sophisticated secondary literature on Murdoch's philosophy represented by Broackes' collection, but while reading it I found myself nostalgic for the intimacy of Murdoch's unmediated address.

I am referring here to the experience of reading, for the first time and without preconception, the opening sentences of The Sovereignty of the Good:

It is sometimes said, either irritably or with a certain satisfaction, that philosophy makes no progress. It is certainly true, and I think this is an abiding and not regrettable characteristic of the discipline, that philosophy has in a sense to keep trying to return to the beginning: a thing which is not all that easy to do. — Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews

If you haven't already, read Iris Murdoch's short book The Sovereignty of Good wherein she discusses 'beauty (art) as a way of seeing – attention to – reality' and therefore (an unorthodox) Platonic approach to moral judgment. — 180 Proof

I think that would be worthwhile :up:

I am still looking for a free version of Murdoch's essays on these topics so I shouldn't criticize what I have not read yet. — Paine

Yes, good idea. Free reading material is difficult to find. However...

You might find this helpful. If you can't bear the accent, a transcript is available:
@180 Proof - haven't watched it all, so not sure how correct it is?
The Sovereignty of Good (Iris Murdoch): Overview