So when you refer to humans as the most insecure and weak species, you mean when they are babies? — Coben

That for sure, but also as we grow. Our insecurity makes us form and or join tribes that appease our insecurity and fellowship needs. Tribes mean safety in numbers and we continue to join or be in tribes till we die. Even religious tribes that we know have immoral tenets like Christianity and Islam, which shows the depth of our insecurity.

My favorite moral psychologist talks of some of this if you have the time to give this link a listen.
Logic and reason is likely all you need though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

Right! — Pattern-chaser

This is the old matrix type of thinking that led to so many movies.
If there is one matrix type of reality, then there could be thousands overlaying it just like fractal math has multiple never ending layers. One supernatural god opens the door to many of the same.

Regards
DL

God just called you a damaged vessel — Ocean777

Thanks for sharing your delusion and showing that you are a piss poor apologist for any god.
Talk to god a lot more. You really need it.

Regards
DL

You have to meet God in person again & again — Ocean777

So you prefer to talk of god's reality, where we have no possible end game, instead of talking the morals of your god, if as scriptures say or not, where we can have an end game.

That is a sign of hypocrisy my friend.

How much of the bible have you scrapped?

What do you believe are your god's morals in terms of what little of the bible you do believe and use?

Let's chat morals or end this endless and useless discussion about god. I don't think you even believe in god as you totally ignored my apotheosis, while continuing to talk of yours.

Regards
DL

The supernatural" covers much more than just this. — Pattern-chaser

Being imaginary, the supernatural can cover whatever people say it covers.

If Yahweh or any other mainstream god can live in some supernatural realm, then so can Odin and Thor.

Right?

Regards
DL

He would take me to Hell & I was made to watch people being herded in & judged one by one, & then they were thrown into the fiery lake & i had to watch them burning in agony. — Ocean777

Interesting.

Did you, or will you, ask Yahweh why he does the opposite of what Jesus said he came to do?
You show Yahweh taking the satanic moral position and killing when he can cure, while Jesus said he came to cure and not kill.

Ask your god Yahweh why he does the satanic thing instead of the Jesus thing.

You do think it is better to cure than to kill I hope.

God says that no angels can manifest on earth or they will be torn apart by Satan's dogs. — Ocean777

??

Do you not believe that the sons of god, angels, came to earth as Nephelims and used the earth as a brothel and forced god to use genocide in Noah's day? Do you believe in Noah's flood?

If you keep an open mind toward God then I am sure that God will manifest some personal proof for you sooner or later. — Ocean777

I have admitted to having suffered my own apotheosis and spoke with god the one time and learned enough to keep me for many years.

I find it strange that god would have to spend so much time with you and just shows you un-provable and really worthless garbage instead of giving you wisdom.

All I got was one instruction. It was all I needed I guess.

Regards
DL

PoeticUniverse — PoeticUniverse

+ 1

Regards
DL

AngryBear

+ 1

To not think in metaphors and analogies is foolish.

Regards
DL

Sometimes it is absolutely bizarre stuff which I would never imagine could happen in my life, & yet it happens just as God told me it would. — Ocean777

Verification and documentation is required for others to believe as you do.

Strange that your god did not tell you to do that.

Your god seems to lack competence in communication techniques.

Regards
DL

Again we only have the word of our fellow man as proof & that is never enough. — Ocean777

I have also been mocked for claiming an apotheosis. I expect it though and am surprised that you do not, especially from so called believers because the vast majority of them do not really believe the way they say they believers. Most religionists are liars and hypocrites just like their preachers.

Belief is a dead end discussion and that is why I focus on the important part of religions which is the morals they teach.

The religious know that in moral terms, their gods are rotten to the core, and always run away when moral discussions are at hand. If that were not the case, the mainstream religions would have grown by good moral tenets instead of inquisitions and jihads. For of arms is all they have while force of good morals should be their forte.

If you have had an apotheosis, I am surprised you did not know this as my apotheosis certainly taught me that. I guess that the god you found is not the same god as the one I found.

A shame as mine seems more in tune with what is important.

Regards
DL

I don't think we are the weakest species. Not in physical strength, nor in adaptivity. — Coben

We definitely grow into that, sure, but look at how long it takes as compared to all other life.
You seem to begin your evaluation when we are adults but ignore how weak and dependent on others we are for so many years when we are young.

It is not something that is selfish in the human sense of egotistical. I can assure you that Dawkins is not attributing personality to dna. — Coben

I agree with this and hope I did not indicate otherwise.

how could we possibly be the weakest most insecure species? — Coben

See above.

This second part, bolded below, makes no sense to me at all....
We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species — Coben

Let me put best thinker in the fittest description even if that is possibly debatable.

We are not all born with the equal ability to think. Nature will not know this and thus will still push all poor thinkers to being the best thinkers and fittest. It can only work with what was born though. Nature demonstrably tries to bring all organisms to their best possible end, even though that best end might be inferior to the fittest of our species. I hope that is understandable the way I have put it.

I don't see nature making sure most people are the fittest of our species. — Coben

Neither do I and don't think I suggested that. I do suggest that nature pushes us all to be the fittest and it is to us to select who those fittest are. The tribe decides that, not nature, although we are a part of nature so I might be contradicting myself with the language and could say that we guide nature and human standards of fittest. In times of peace, we might see the most peaceful as the fittest and at time of war, the strongest warrior might be seen as the fittest. The fittest will likely always be seen as the one most helpful in the survival of the many.

Nature is working with each individual to insure they are the fittest homo sapien? I don't see this. Many seem content with less than being fittest, some content with not being fit at all. — Coben

This is not surprising as our tribal natures insure that there is a hierarchy in our species as otherwise the tribal members would war against each other perpetually.

Imagine us as a pack of dogs. One the fittest has been found, the Alpha male, the numbers of challengers or challenges to his rule tend to drop off till he shows weakness. That is when he is deposed.

Regards
DL

How do these ideas fit together? — Coben

Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms — Gnostic Christian Bishop

.... the most weak and insecure species.
and...
Our DNA, the selfish gene, drives us to be the fittest. — Coben

Those statements give true facts and all three stand on their own merit.

We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species.

If you disagree, tell us why?

Regards
DL

As you say this gene that drives us to be the fittest. — Coben

Are you trying to say that our genes are not pushing all of us to be as fit as possible?

Let's have your argument instead of your word games.

Regards
DL

It then leads the soul through the earth to experience good & evil & learn how to be good — Ocean777

We instinctively know the good, in fact, we default to doing good as it is the best survival strategy. History shows us that what we are learning to do is mitigate the evil we must do as we compete for resources to survive.
Science and evolution shows we must do evil. It is mostly just not lethal anymore thanks to our l;earning well how to mitigate the harm.

Take away the harm and we go extinct.

Regards
DL

How did our selfish gene that drives us to be the fittest in your conception allow this to happen? — Coben

I would not use the word allow.
We are a part of nature.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms. It can only work with what it has in terms of the DNA available to it.

Regards
DL

Furthermore, by shilling for the ruling elite, you completely lose credibility. — alcontali

I have a healthy disrespect for all social control entities, be they religious or political but your mind had already pigeon hole me thanks to your own deep biases.

Regards
DL

Seriously, arguing over maximum penalties is quite pointless. — alcontali

I agree and don't know why you went there.

As to the rest of your idiocy. Garbage.

Regards
DL

Oops

Question (because I'm ignorant): do you mean yourselves as individuals or as members of a community? That is, do you suppose yourself personally to be God? Or do you suppose yourself as individual as part of a larger entity that itself is God? — tim wood

It is all personal, just as all presentations of any god from anyone is a personal representation or picture of the mental image they have created for themselves of god.

Regards
DL

That is because you are a worshipper of the ruling elite. They are your gods, but they are certainly not mine. — alcontali

Don't class me by your fears ace.

Gnostic Christians are esoteric ecumenists and perpetual seekers. We do not idol worship anything or anyone.

The rest of your garbage was not worth my time.

Regards
DL

Therefore, I have a vested interest in countering the ruling elite with any alternative available, including religion. If sometimes religion can be the tool of the ruling elite, it can also trivially be repurposed into a tool against it. — alcontali

Are you advocating barbaric religious laws be the law of the land the way Muslims do?

Would, for instance, we be better off to stone unruly children as the bible prescribes or just keep usin other secular non-lethal methods?

BTW, Americans fear their government while in other more advanced democracies, the governments fear the people.

American have lost the decent balls they used to sport.

Regards
DL

we want to be god. — Arne

As we should, if we are following our genes that push us to be the fittest of our species.

Regards
DL

my problem is that people such as pastors are getting paid and money is being made in the face of religion even in spite of what it is or what it supposedly is. — Maureen

We are the most week and insecure animal on the planet.

Religions are created to appease our tribal natures, fellowship needs and insecurity.

Money is not much of a consideration and perhaps that is why theist pay to be lied to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

Regardless of whether God(s) of any religion do exist or have always existed, their existence has never been considered substantial for whatever reason until their respective religion was developed. — Maureen

Perhaps. As nations, I can agree, but not as individuals. It seems that we are born with a mental itch to scratch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM

In at least the Jewish era on up, religions did not really believe in a literal god. The intelligentsia were more like what Gnostic Christians developed into and before Christianity stupidly began to read their myths literally.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

Religions are basically tribal units.
Religions, in that sense, have always been around and as far as I know, our tribes, for about 75,000 years have has shaman and chiefs and the shaman was seen ar representing god or mostly gods.
I would say a lot of naturalistic religions as that 75,000 year reference is to a serpent worshiping tribe in Africa.
25,000 years back, in Eastern Europe we see mostly female worship and peaceful coexistence. 5,000 years ago we developed our gods of war and have been gifted with almost constant war since.
We need to have female gods come back to save our lousy male asses.
The best man for almost all jobs is a woman.
I am a man and know that truth.
Regards
DL

There is no argument against it; — god must be atheist

Sure their is. It can be shown to be speculative nonsense and one of a zillion options.

That is why thinkers will reject the supernatural as a waste of time.

Regards
DL

Also God might have morally justified reasons for these actions that your limited, fallible, finite mind doesn't have access to. — GodlessGirl

That is what the religious liars want you to believe, yet the bible says that we are not as stupid as the liars want us to think we are as they pick our pocket in church.

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Only moral cowards will not step up. Cowards can never be moral. You might be one if you believe the B S you have been lied about by some lying preacher.

Regards
DL

It also appears to me that you think God exists but you just don’t like him. — Brett

I hold no supernatural beliefs and see god as an elevated man.

I will not waste my time discussing gods existence here. There is no end game to that pointless discussion.

It is the Christian morality that I am here to discuss and how they can idol worship Jesus and his revers in Yahweh at the same time.

Regards
DL

But what you have to decide is what you mean or understand in your own usage by the word "god." Until you settle on that, even provisionally, you're not going to get very far. — tim wood

How I define gods is irrelevant as I am discussing an imaginary god and not the only real god one can have, which is just a template in our own minds. That fact is why we Gnostic Christians will call our god I am.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Tim

As you can see, my definition is intelligent and that view does not apply to when I discuss the Christian god.

Regards
DL

How? Or if because you say so, then what do you mean in saying it? — tim wood

Logic and reason says it. Would you mane an entity god who did not have decent moral tenets?
Not likely.

Do you mean of the actions attributed to God in the Bible — tim wood

I mean any god form any of the so called holy books.

Regards
DL

faith
noun: faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope, expectation
"he completely justified his boss's faith in him"

antonyms: mistrust

2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

That is not the definition of love, stupid. Go look it up and learn English.

Regards
DL

You're just making stuff — Coben

Then I guess we are done as I see you doing just that.

Regards
DL

Yes, I have become my enemy and have bested his ways with truth instead of his lies.

Regards
DL

If you were capable of looking into a mirror, you would see more than one ugly similarity between you and what you are attacking. — DingoJones

Not uglier. Better and more learned.

What you were talking of is garbage. If you want to match wits, get some.

Regards
DL

If we look at Christian pacificism there are advocates from many branches of Christianity going way back. Yes, gnostics are included. — Coben

True.

It is also true that in Christianity, it did not take well as evidenced by their many inquisitions and murders.

Regards
DL

don’t make up a shortcoming about others in order to explain your own. — DingoJones

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

and indeed low levels of intelligence are associated with high levels of fundamentalism, — Gilbert

I have noted that as well.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Regards
DL

In the OP you said the gods or God does not have good moral fiber. Why do you say that? Which religion are you talking about? — christian2017

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

They are fierce defenders of pro-life, — god must be atheist

Only if someone else foots the bill.

They will not put their money where their mouths are.

Regards
DL

Even presenting quotes from the very gnostics he quotes that go against his position never leads to a concession. — Coben

Yes, because I can speak to then from a modern and evolved viewpoint.

We are not what we were 1,000 and 2,000 years ago.

We have progressed while the mainstream have stagnated with their homophobic and misogynistic teachings.

Regards
DL