Gnostics are dualists, seeing ‘this fallen world’ as a trap, and all matter evil and a source of misery, the only escape from which is gained by asceticism and denial of the world. Nothing about traditional gnosticism was 'human-centred' - in fact that's the main reason they lost the battle with orthodoxy. Although I suspect that this is one of those conversations where facts don't matter, so I'll butt out. — Wayfarer

Lies propagated by the inquisitors to discredit us and justify their use of murder.

Let me speak to the lie of our hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
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The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

What you wrote here does not contradict what I wrote. — Coben

You wrote nonsense, like this ---.

"I am saying that love is a kind of faith,"

Faith is based on nothing.

Regards
DL

What is this a playground with clever comebacks? — Coben

If it is, you are out of your league.

Regards
DL

You’re kidding, right? You want me to list people I know and then prove their existence to you? — Brett

I asked for one example of what you said existed. Apologies for trying to get you to put your money where your mouth was.

Regards
DL

So, whilst the deterministic worldview of the montheistic religions rules out Free Will, — Jacob-B

I do not see that.
In fact, I have a little test that proves that even under determinism, we still have a free will to exercise that is only constrained by nature and physics.

It is a really simple test if you would like to give it a go. So far no one has been able to refute or deny that they have a free will.

You might not even need to take it to change your view if you can recognize that if you have a free will, you can give it up upon request, should you -- chose-- to do so.

Regards
DL

Actually, I’ve found them to argue as heatedly as you do. — Brett

Show one instance.

Regards
DL

but that doesn’t mean the supernatural is impossible, just that you don’t like it. — Brett

You are correct that it is the effect of such stupid beliefs that I dislike.

Gnostic thinking on this is shown in many movies that show that if there is one supernatural realm or god, there could be as many as fractal math. Gods over god over gods.

It is an endless cycle of gods, which is stupid.

Regards
DL

But in any case, it's not much evidence of anything. — Coben

It is evidence of how one must think to believe B.S.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Regards
DL

And not rational. — Coben

That was what your reply was, yes.

Loves takes two as one cannot have true love alone.

Regards
DL

So is love. — Coben

Seriously?
That would be stalking, not sharing love with another.

If you share love through faith, then it cannot be a true love as true love must have works, deeds and reciprocity.

Regards
DL

We use faith in learning, in fact telling people they will succeed increases their success even if the person saying knows they are poor students. — Coben

I think you are misusing the word faith.

If a student is poor in math and has not begun a logic trail in his mind that recognizes how 2 + 2 = 4, throw as much faith at him that you like, but he will never grasp math without logic and reason which are anathema to faith.

Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

Regards
DL

I'm not so optimistic as that. — Frotunes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Regards
DL

Actually we can have somewhat justified beliefs about things we do not know. It is not binary, even in science. There are degrees of evidence and models that we use that imply things that we have not yet demonstrated, and then individuals can know things that they cannot prove to others, and more. — Coben

I can agree with this.
You are talking about faith based on facts and a logic trail.
Religious faith is just based on hope without any facts.

Regards
DL

I disagree. I doubt science, with its limits, primitiveness and cultural factors. But that is a lot different than believing in a delusion like the existence of God/gods as the religions fantasize. — Frotunes

Science, I think, recognize their own shortcomings and at least tread lightly till they are sure of their hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRLR9jhP_DM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Regards
DL

A person who has no faith in the supernatural has too much faith in Science.... RMC — halo

Faith without facts is for fools.

Thor is the only real god. Prove me wrong.
That idiocy is what faith leads to.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't say intelligent person. Someone who actually believes in a lie of such improbably fantastical nature would be termed much more aptly as delusional than intelligent perse. Creative, perhaps, but delusional all the same. — Frotunes

I agree but did not want to put that as an O.P. because the theists would just run away as is their habit when they cannot do apologetics for their god/delusion.

Regards
DL

What it amounts to is nothing more than a belief? — Brett

True. A belief I am happy to do apologetics for while Christians just run away instead of trying to do apologetics that they would lose if the topic has any moral implications.

Have you ever tried to get a religionist involved in a moral discursion?

They run like beaten dogs.

Regards
DL

I can’t help thinking that in the past this has led to some pretty tragic situations. — Brett

True, but if you look at history, you will see that most of the wars have been religious wars. Sure, that was still a person starting it but for religious reasons more than political reasons.

Regards
DL

I just haven't experience their perspectives personally. — MacGuffin

That is good news. Nice to know you are not homophobic and misogynous or can think a real prick of a god is somehow good.

I think it our duty to fight such immoral thinking.

If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

Whereas all I see in your posts is hostility to anything religious, — Wayfarer

I am hostile to all who have given up thinking to be a sheeple to a genocidal son murdering prick of a god whose religion grew with inquisitions due to not having moral arguments to convert with.
If your not then your moral sense is defective as you are supporting a homophobic and misogynous religion.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

Are you better than the natural, non-human world? — yupamiralda

We are the top predator so the rest of the non-human world would certainly say yes, as they would like to be the top predator.

For all I know, they would also like to have our mental/intelligence capability.

Do you not think yourself better than a chimp at a keyboard?
Would you risk your life to save one?

Regards
DL

Just responding in kind, young friend.

Live long and prosper! — Pattern-chaser

FYPOV, that made sense old friend.

Regards
DL

Funny folks, the faithful. — god must be atheist

In thinking, true, in actions, I would not use the term funny.
Given that they have grown by inquisitions and jihads, I would say they are immoral and deadly when given power.

Regards
DL

Well, who cares? — Brett

Gays, women, and all others who are discriminated against without a just cause.

All who hate inquisitions and jihads, be they used to kill or to just try to prevent freedom of thought and religion.

If that is not you. then your morals suck and your not worth my time.

My subjective view of the mainstream supernatural based religions is that they are garbage and based on lies and a vile genocidal son murdering prick of a god. This has people calling an evil god good.

What is your subjective view?

Regards
DL

No supernatural gods, no evidence, nothing, but they are ‘demonstrably’ less moral than humans? — Brett

Atta boy/man.

Regards
DL

Does the name Stephan Hoeller mean anything to you? — Wayfarer

Yes. I have listened to some of his work and agree with a lot of it. Not all though, although I cannot recall what I did not agree with him on.

Regards
DL

Wouldn't physical evidence of the supernatural prove it's physical and therefore natural? — Hanover

No. If I had supernatural powers, nothing would stop me from popping in and out of other dimensions and being able to interact with them.

Even Yahweh killed an animal to make a garment for A & E. Not that that myth is real.

Just appearing in a new dimension would displace things at the sub atomic level. I guess as no supernatural entity has stuck around long enough for us to know.

Regards
DL

Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy? — Gnostic Christian Bishop
You’ll need to explain that to me. — Brett

The tax exempt and tax breaks that religion enjoy is in the 80 billon a year range in the U.S alone.

What they save and keep has to be made up by the general public otherwise that 80 odd billion would cause a deficit.

You and I are members of the general public and like it or not, we are both subsidizing religions though/with our tax cash.

Regards
DL

You grasp Objective Reality by logic and reason? Lucky this topic concerns the supernatural, then. You are clearly much loved by the Gods, to have given you such power. Power they withhold from all other men. — Pattern-chaser

Why did you ignore my question and returned with this garbage instead?

You seem to want a one way conversation and are tripping over your own tongue with foolishness.

Regards
DL

How? — Pattern-chaser

By applying logic and reason of course.

That is how you do it as well. No?

Regards
DL

Better still to recognise the truth of your first sentence. If you apply it to the second, you may see that you can't recognise a fantasy, nor tell fantasy from 'reality'. That is my point. — Pattern-chaser

I do recognize the truth of my sentence, or I would not have written it.

The rest of what you said makes no sense to me as I recognize that the condemnation of humanity is a lie and also have a good grasp of the real and the imaginary.

Regards
DL

But your response is equally problematic since you cannot know whether we will find out most things. — Coben

We have no idea how close we are, knowledge wise, to all that can be known and what can be done.

Speculative nonsense is all we can have of what we do not know, especially of the supernatural.

Regards
DL

I don’t see what this has to do with individuals believing in something other than the material world. — Brett

Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy?

Regards
DL

A necessary, common-sense, fantasy, given our position, but fantasy nonetheless. — Pattern-chaser

True that reality is a collective hunch.

Still better to not add to the objective reality by adding a fantasy that one must believe in to be saved.

Do you need saving and what did you do to be condemned?

Regards
DL

Much of "reality" is unknown and unknowable to us. — Pattern-chaser

Science would disagree.

To not at least stick to what can be known, and think what cannot be known is real, would be people giving up logic and reason for fantasy.

I do not see that as a good idea.

Regards
DL

It would certainly help — Frotunes

I agree and think so by a long shot.

Regards
DL

Nothing can or will change anyway until our fiat money system goes away. — halo

You put nothing that I agree with and speculate on so many issues that I would not know where to start my critique.

You have already taken the defeated's position and are kowtowing to our oligarch owners.

Regards
DL

if the wealth proved sufficient. — Pattern-chaser

From looking at the stats, I note how little it would actually take to reverse the trend of the rich stealing from the poor.

Crumbs from the rich table is all that is required to put our socio economic demographic pyramid into a moral state or shape.

Regards
DL

So your answer is a fool and his money are easily parted. — Brett

It would be nice if it was only the fools money, but non-believing tax payers have to make up the billion dollar short fall that religious tax exemptions create.

Believer or not, you are paying for lying clergy to continue lying.

Regards
DL

Why do people assume the supernatural, or gods, or whatever, should conform to our all-too-human ideas about morality? — yupamiralda

Because if they do not, they are inferior and not worthy of us.

Secular law has already shown it superiority to theistic law and morality and if our gods cannot conform to that better morality they should be condemned.

To not do so has us ending todays with homophobic and misogynous inquisition and jihad using inferior religions.

Regards
DL