If you will read scriptures in a way that they say what you want them to say instead of reading them to say what they say, that is on you.

When god says Satan moved him to do evil without a cause, I read it that way.

You blame mankind for being stupid, while ignoring that our stupid natures are given to us by your god.

Your morals are truly compromised as that ex preacher says they are.

Strat thinking like what is shown in this clip. If moved to, watch the whole movie and note how it ends. Like their mind set, I do not want you to stop seeking god. I just want you to reject the genocidal god you adore and seek a moral one.

You are a female. If you, like me, a hard hearted man, do not come near tears watching it, you will know for a fact that you are not thinking the right way. Try to answer his question of, what kind of god would torture and murder a baby.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL

Jesus probably didn't say — Relativist

Jesus probably didn't say anything anywhere, given that he is a mythical character.

As Joseph Campbell said, he is likely just one of his Heroes of 1,000 faces.

Regards
DL

For the sake of argument in line with your premise, perhaps the first part was simply an exclamation as it is today and the latter directed toward those present. — Outlander

Jesus would not call those present 'my god".

'God is beyond human comprehension'. Isaiah 55:8, as one example. — Outlander

The bible says that sure. Which means that all of what is said of god is either speculative nonsense or an outright lie from those who say anything about god. Right?

Regards
DL

Why not go right to the father? — schopenhauer1

Because Jesus ascended, in the myth, to Yahweh's right hand an judgement seat and has to be gone through to get to the Father whom Jesus basically retired. In older terms, he became the Hand of the King.

If this was said at all, it probably indicates that he thought there was going to be some sort of End of Times miracle that was going to happen around the time of his death that did not transpire. Of course all the christology over the years layers it with whatever makes the narrative of the trinity and resurrection story look good, so there ya go. — schopenhauer1

He likely was expecting a miracle, and knew he had failed in his bid to have the messianic prophecy happen. That failure to do so wasted his suicide and he knew it and that is why the majority of Jews rejected him as savior.

Regards
DL

I just went to read the passage you mentioned and it doesn't say what you are saying it says. The passage says that God is letting Satan know that Satan's plan is to get God to to evil to Noah. But if you keep reading further it's clear that God declined to do evil to Noah so Satan did it instead — Julia

It does indeed say that in my bible and further down, it just has god setting the limits for Satan.

God is the don while Satan is the hit man. You are blaming the hit man while leaving the don who sent her off scot free.

You are not thinking in a moral way or are a moral coward who fears to face the truth.

Here is an ex preacher testing Christians and their double moral standards that are like yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mJCCARjyNM

And where does it say that God repented in the Noah story? — Julia

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God missed whatever mark he had set and repented for his sin.

Regards
DL

Where does it say the Being makes mistakes? — Julia

In Job 2;3 where he admits to being moved by Satan to sin by doing evil without a just cause and when he repented in the Noah myth.

You say god kills as the best result when he could take the moral high ground and cure.

You ignore that he murders millions and cures the few who you did not name.

I think your are making shit up so show where he cured anyone in the O.T.

Regards
DL

And what makes you think that when this Being kills — Julia

Yahweh is shown to kill instead of cure in many parts of scriptures, even to the use of genocide.

If Yahweh used the Golden Rule, he would cure instead of kill. No?

If you did not know that he kills many and cures none, it does not seem like you read your bible?

Let me bring you up to speed just a bit.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL

Well, the Being you speak of is one that basically made up the golden rule and taught people how to live by it which is basically the way the this Being does it. — Julia

Are you speaking of Yahweh?

If so, how does his killing when can just as easily cure, live up to the Golden Rule?

Further, how do you get that he created the Golden Rule when most religions that are older, like the Egyptians, have a Golden Rule in the book of the dead?

if anyone disagrees then it means they don't fully understand the golden rule the Being had then created. — Julia

How do you understand the Golden Rule in light of Yahweh killing instead of curing?

Regards
DL

Not what I said. Fuck off a hole.

Regards
DL

I have no idea what to do. — neonspectraltoast

I love this old gal. Follow her advice.

I say it PARTLY in jest, given your distortion of my views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8kOHPnqXG0

Regards
DL

If that's what you need to believe, and your entire philosophy rests upon, be my guest. You understand the true nature of time and consciousness. Right. Meanwhile I and the rest of the scientific and philosophical community will continue to try and study it. — neonspectraltoast

I have no need to believe anything. I do believe what I think is true based on the facts I have accepted as true.

Nowhere have I said that I understand all there is to know of time and consciousness.

If all you are going to do is distort my beliefs, then ----- you know what to do, liar.

Regards
DL

Sorry, "time is linear" isn't the end-all be-all of discussions about the nature of time. — neonspectraltoast

True. It is just a truth.

Regards
DL

without explanation is not the same as without a explanation. — hachit

Given this idiocy, move along buddy.

Regards
DL

Remember I defined the supernatural as that without explanation, not as Frank Apisa does. — hachit

WT hell.

Same question on transcendence.

Regards
DL

Entropy and the anthropic principle have nothing to do with it. — neonspectraltoast

They refute you, but if you cannot see that, this is pointless. If you are going to deny science -----

Regards
DL

Frank Apisa — Frank Apisa

No argument on this.

Regards
DL

i believe in the transcendent — hachit

Faith has no facts. Beliefs do.

What facts make you believe in the supernatural?

Regards
DL

Frank Apisa — Frank Apisa

No argument on this.

Regards
DL

Of wich suicide and worship of death were known to be practiced. Cannibalism is in the gray so we don't know if it was true. — hachit

You have been listening to the lies the inquisitors put out there to justify their many murders.

Go ahead and believe all the lies you want and keep honoring your genocidal prick of a god..

Regards
DL

your arguments hold no water if hericy is include in them in this case the hericy is the idea of the evil God, as by definition he is omnibenevolent. — hachit

Sure. Like all genocidal pricks.

Thanks for showing us how you honor genocidal characters.

Regards
DL

But what do I know I only studied demonology, angelology, and witchcraft. On top of theology (the study of believe) — hachit

What did you gain from studying fantasy?

Demon and Satan seek to steer us away from God. — hachit

I see that fantasy as quite good, given that Yahweh is a genocidal god.

If I tried to talk you out of honoring Hitler, Stalin or some other genocidal moral monster, would you see me as a demon or Satan?

Regards
DL

And I believe this is true, because I've seen evidence. — neonspectraltoast

Show it.

Regards
DL

he theory is that all times coexist simultaneously and our perception of linear time is an illusion. — neonspectraltoast

That theory is foolish given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Break your illusion by counting to 2.

Regards
DL

So you're going to act like time is a well-understood phenomena? It's been posited by no less than Albert Einstein that it's a fourth dimension, and that we live in some kind of mysterious block universe. — neonspectraltoast

I don't care where my consciousness exists as long as it is mine and somehow connected to me, or vice versa. Einstein 4th dimension is space time. No?

You're right, consciousness exists in spacetime. That's kind of my whole point. If time isn't strictly linear, and consciousness cannot exist independently of it, then you have to explain what that means for consciousness. — neonspectraltoast

Time is linear, from past and now to the future now will create. All that means for our consciousness is that we follow the same time our minds perceive.

If you have seen time being anything but linear and in the one direction only. If that is not what you see, explain.

Regards
DL

If you haven't explained how consciousness relates to time, you haven't explained consciousness. — neonspectraltoast

??

Both terms are well define in dictionaries and if your definition does not stray too far from those, I am sure I would agree with your explanation or definition.

Consciousness, of course, needs space time to exist in.

Regards
DL

That's beautiful ) — ernestm

Not to me and not as stated as you can see by my question to our friend, as it ignores that consciousness is already made up of sub-atomic particles that, as energy, would revert into matter and kill the consciousness that is the entity.

Regards
DL

If heaven exists, we are already in it. From the start and forever. We never really die. Just tansit to different type of energy. En — ttjordy

I agree on matter and energy, but if you are your consciousness, unless you think it can persist after the brain death, it would disperse and you would die. No?

Regards
DL

What exactly do you think you are doing? — ernestm

Exchanging and comparing POVs and showing why mine is superior.

Mine lives by the Golden Rule while yours does not. Mine is moral while yours is not.

Regards
DL

Part of my position is that other people are entitled to their own beliefs. — ernestm

I see Gnostic Christianity as having two mandates. The one is to show our better ideology and the other is described by this adage. For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

You would want to be correct in any poor thinking you were doing and I think all people would so I applu the Golden Rule on this.

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL

The soul is agency of choices. And then in the end the soul is judged for all the choices it made. — Syamsu

Judged by who?

Regards
DL

For me, heaven always starts right now. It's kind of an existentialist thing. How are you , but the way? I just made love with my girlfriend. She's adorable ) — ernestm

I agree, but think she is starting to get fat. ;-)

But maybe it isnt a fantasy, — ernestm

If you are thinking of being a Gnostic Christian, remember that we hold no supernatural belief and "maybe it isn't fantasy", is not something we would say. IDK is the more intelligent reply.

Regards
DL

I dont believe its right to deny them that hope in any way. — ernestm

I think that truth is the best and that to let one live in a fantasy that might make one give up an earthly pleasure for some imaginary pleasure later, is cruel.

If we are talking of someone near death, that is one time where the truth would just cause pain and no pleasure and a white lie is good.

To give a white lie to someone not near death and able to seek all enjoyments would be cruel.

Regards
DL

As I understand it, that's for each person to figure out for themselves. — ernestm

True, but if you are to quote something, you should opine on it and give your conclusions.

Gnostic Christianity is all about speaking of what we know. You are speaking of what you do not yet know.

Try this. That refers to the maturity of your thinking where your ideas will never be defeated in debate or arguments. I have not tasted that death for a while and I miss it. I hate to think that when my apotheosis put me higher up Jacobs ladder, that I reached the last rung.

The journey, so to speak, is the fun of the trip. Getting to the destination/reward is not nearly as enjoyable.

"Reign for a while" likely means undefeated arguments till your death.

Regards
DL

ernestm — ernestm

Whoever figures out the true meaning of these sayings won't taste death:

“If you seek heaven,” Jesus said, “you shouldn't stop looking for it until you find it. When you find it, at first your spirit will first be disturbed. But later, it'll be full of wonder. When you find heaven, you'll reign there for a while. Then you'll find rest

How do you read/interpret, " won't taste death", and "you'll reign there for a while." ?

Regards
DL

↪Zophie Heaven and non-heaven are the same thing, by this theory. There is no place which is not heaven. It just changes with time what heaven is to you. — Rucan

I agree.

Regards
DL

Rucan — Rucan

I can relate quite easily to your issues here.

Let me give you my Gnostic Christian view, that shows why heaven is right here and right now.

The logic trail is incorporated in this old O.P.

----------

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

You're just straight evangelizing now. Nobody wants to read that crap. — frank

I am showing a way to think that all religions who put man above some supernatural god do.

If you don't like that, too bad. Go complain to someone who cares.

Regards
DL

I got that far and stopped reading. Sorry. — ernestm

Don't be sorry. Many cannot give up supernatural and foolish thinking.

To a Gnostic Christian who recognizes his god within, loving ones self and god are the same thing.

Most settle for a genocidal absentee god instead of a living breathing one.

Regards
DL

The point of Jesus' teaching is that the two commandments are inseparable. — ernestm

Actually, the two command are actually one. The other is redundant or just a repetition, depending on how you define god..

To Jesus, man is the highest form of life therefore and god. Jesus asked, have ye forgotten that ye are gods?

Most have forgotten. I hope you haven't.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

The topic most people prefer to debate is how it can actually work successfully without believing in God at all. — ernestm

Just look at your own instincts that default to cooperation instead of competition.

We are born with the Golden Rule as our guide to cooperate because that is the best survival strategy.

That is why we default to it till old enough to compete to be the fittest.

Regards
DL.

the TEN COMMANDMENTS, no longer required animal sacrifice for atonement of sins, — ernestm

Where in scriptures is this documented?

Regards
DL

The point was, when Jesus fulfilled the holy covenant by sacrificing his own blood, — ernestm

Jesus tested the savior prophesy and failed to return and that is why the Jews rejected him as their messiah.

The Jewish law is clear that Jesus could not die for us. That is a Christian lie and quite immoral.

On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards
DL