Glad to oblige, thanks for the invitation — ernestm

No problem buddy.

My research shows, ----Reciprocity dates as far back as the time of Hammurabi (c. 1792–1750 BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(social_psychology)#History

Ancient Egypt[edit]
Possibly the earliest affirmation of the maxim of reciprocity, reflecting the ancient Egyptian goddess Ma'at, appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do."[9][10] This proverb embodies the do ut des principle.[11] A Late Period (c. 664–323 BC) papyrus contain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Matt. 22: 37-19? In any case you have something you call "the golden rule." As for whether Jesus's actions comport with that is a research problem the answer to which found in the aforementioned book and to my knowledge no other. — tim wood

Correct. That is the book on which I based the question.

I do not see Jesus living by the Golden Rule.

Regards
DL

There's a difference, no? Altruism is real, no? — TheMadFool

There is a difference and both are real.

Here is the sequence.

Selfishness is served by our altruism and empathy towards others.

Altruism and empathy are tools that we use to insure that our selfish desire to live is served before all other considerations.

Life wants to live, --- not that life or our instincts can think, --- and then live as well as possible.

That is why we use tools like empathy and altruism. We are successful to where we now threaten our own extinction, because we are too nice to each other.

We have become soft and that is destroying us. We have to start to be harder on each other so as to improve on what we are doing to our eco system.

Regards
DL

there simply is nothing that persists to which we may impute selfishness. — TheMadFool

Yet we are all born with that instinct.

So you have no other suggestion as to our prime directive, and will ignore the perfect logic that our DNA gives us to survive as a selfish prime directive.

You are a science denier without even a substitute theory. You have hit a blank wall and just keep on doing the same thing.

Regards
DL

it doesn't make sense for life to act selfish towards the nonliving. — TheMadFool

I agree.

Who did such a stupid thing?

As to DNA. They are what genes are made of so there was no changing goal posts.

The information encoded in it, to you, does not last long yet science has shown that it goes from generation to generation, and in some instances, skips a generation, to pop up in the next.

You have not kept up my friend.

But that aside, if you do not see the great instincts we have with our selfishness, what do you think our prime directive from our instincts are, if not be selfish?

Regards
DL

I suggest not talking on this forum again and seeing a psychotherapist. — ernestm

I suggest you bite me.

Regards
DL

If reproduction is about selfish genes then, these genes must persist through generations which they do not. — TheMadFool

Reproducing is a part of selfishness, sure, but survival comes first and given that there are old around, the DNA lasts long enough.

Regards
DL

1. Altruism is meaningful and not an illusion and is contradictory to selfishness

2. The selfish gene theory is believed to explain both selfishness and altruism. This is an inconsistency isn't it? — TheMadFool

No it is not.

Our selfish gene will do whatever it selfishly want to maintain life.

Our selfish gene defaults to cooperation, as that is the best survival strategy, and it includes altruism and empathy towards others.

Ifr selfish, I will try to make friends, given that we are all tribal by nature, and that means being nice to others which is when our altruism and empathy come out.

Regards
DL

I've seen Jesus spelled as Yeshua...but "Yahweh" is the name of Abraham's god. — Frank Apisa

The apostles creed make the monotheistic Christian religion only having one head.

Christians stupidly try to put 3 in one and that is what I am working with.

Regards
DL

then it shouldn't be able to explain everything — TheMadFool

Pfffft.

Life's first priority is to seek thet it's best end for itself.

More life as life's first concern is a selfish situation, without which the fittest could never emerge.

Give me and all of us selfish, --- or give us extinction.

Selfish is what makes us so nice to each other. Too nice perhaps.

The notion of a selfish gene is unsettling. — TheMadFool

Selflessness is anti-love. You want those you love to know that they come first on your loved list.

True love first, lip service love later.

Our selfish gene defaults to cooperation. That is our good side.

We are killing the planet with love for ourselves and each other. Quite the paradox.

Regards
DL

Ok. I agree.

Regards
DL

The root of the Golden Rule is empathy — TheMadFool

I saw nothing to argue in your views.

I see this quote as close but not quite getting to the root.

I think we are pushed by our selfish gene which creates our empathy and altruism.

A small point but biologists seen to see the selfish gene creating all our reactions.

Regards
DL

The way I heard it, the devil thought it worth having a three way tempt of Jesus in the desert. — unenlightened

True, and that bolsters the Christian belief that he does no evil. You seem to use that to refute the does no evil meme.

But Jesus the idea, Jesus the direction, Jesus the imaginary friend, is another matter. — unenlightened

Indeed. That is why the question asks if he lives by the Golden Rule that he preached.

Care to opine on this as it is what the O.P. is all about?

Regards
DL

Let me put a reply I put at my other thread.

-------------

You guys have scared all the theists away.

Know that I post this type of question here looking for decent apologetics or arguments that I can use in my work of discrediting what I see as a harmful religion. I know my enemy and want to use the bible and how it represents a vile god that theists promote as good.

I hope I get some of those arguments.

If either of you wish to provide your best to the exact question, please do.

I feel ,it my duty to be anti religion and seek ammo. If you are capable, please show me the best tou have.

Bashing is good, but sound arguments are better and this is supposed to be where philosophers hang out and not just bashers.

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Perhaps — christian2017

Perhaps?

How can you have the moral high ground while idol worshiping a genocidal god?

Would you agree that I have the moral high ground if I idol worshiped Hitler?

Hitler could not cure so killed. Your god can cure yet chooses to kill.

Which one is taking the moral low ground?

can you rephrase that sentence. — christian2017

I like it as is.

Regards
DL

There's the problem. — InPitzotl

What is the problem with knowing their weaknesses and seeing them as them as my enemy?

Should I just ignore that, in the past, they used their inquisitions on us and in the present, they still think themselves justified in denying us our right to think as we please?

We are presently competing for moral supremacy, mostly, and with their inquisitor attitude, it is quite hard to have a friendly conversation. Reciprocity is fair play where I come from and should I show love when they show hate?

Should I love them as my enemies as Jesus preached, while also promising that when he returns he will kill everyone that does not accept him as King?

...what's a Gnostic doing relying on the bible for his arguments? — InPitzotl

I am not a Gnostic. There is no such thing. I am a Gnostic Christian.

We have never given up our brand name and have always used that label.

Regards
DL

You got your OP taken down because it was low quality not because you're a Christian. Be thankful we're allowing you to spout your ignorant religious bigotry concerning atheists on this thread. — Baden

I would not pull anything, because the more atheists know about how their religious interlocutors think, the more ammo is provided to use against them.

Just reading the bible gave me my arguments, that they cannot win.

Knowing your enemy is good as it shows you their weakness.

Regards
DL

You said no such thing but this is implied due to your being flexible because then anything goes! — Vaibhav Narula

Not anything, given the parameters I put.

Regards
DL

And i have morals that you disagree with. Like you believe abortion among other things is ok. I don't see the two of us seeing eye to eye. — christian2017

Ok? No. I dislike any potential human being aborted.

What I think is ok is to let others make their own decisions on important parts of their lives. A free willed choice that many would not allow, while preaching that all should have freedom to think as they will.

What you think is ok is to impose your views on others without putting your money where your mouth is to insure the best end for those children. That is a non-lethal inquisition which is a Christian forte. That was the royal you Christians BTW.

All for the idol wordship of a genocidal moral monster god.

Regards
DL

thereby every disagreement is reduced to triviality. — Vaibhav Narula

I said no such thing.

On redefining. Stay flexible.

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

======

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than—Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebration—one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...theists-religious-european-christians/560936/

Regards
DL

You think your ethics are good. But my ethics are different from your ethics. — christian2017

If push came to shove, I doubt that we would differ much.

If you want to go all over the place, issue wise, do it in P M.

Better still, start on O.P. on the morality of Christianity verses Gnostic Christianity.

I will clean your clock.

Genocidal satanic gods fall quite quickly.

Regards
DL

Atheism is God denial, no religion involved.

Yes people claim to be Atheist who misrepresent it.

If that's conflated to mean lack of any belief or void of belief, I don't agree. — ztaziz

1 Do you not fit the description of that word?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio
The Latin term religiō, origin of the modern lexeme religion (via Old French/Middle Latin[2]) is of ultimately obscure etymology. It is recorded beginning in the 1st century BC, i.e. in Classical Latin at the beginning of the Roman Empire, notably by Cicero, in the sense of "scrupulous or strict observance of the traditional cultus". In classic antiquity, meant conscientiousness, sense of right, moral obligation, or duty towards anything[3] and was used mostly in secular or mundane contexts.[4][5]

2 You do not agree with the many atheist priests and churches? Why not?

They seem to be leading atheists. Do you not have an ideology just as the religious do?

3 You have an ideology just as most adults do. What is it?

Regards
DL

even someone who simply refuses to believe in any ideology, — Vaibhav Narula

An ideology is a thinking system. We all think and follow the thinking by actions. All people have some kind of ideology. Thinking people all think in a way that falls under some ideology proposed by someone.

That is true for you and I and everyone else.

Sure, we have started to meld words like atheist agnostic, religious agnostic religious atheist etc.

That is why I just call them all ideologies to KIS.

This post shows how foolish the labelling is getting.

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Regards
DL

Communism/Atheism has killed far more than religion in alot less time. Just imagine the death toll in 500 years as far as Atheism goes. This doesn't even include abortion. How do you feel about Abortion? — christian2017

Think of the numbers that religions have killed for the 4,500 years before that.

Abortion? Wrong issue here, but lest you forget, most were done by Christian women.

Regards
DL.

Probably not many. Not all of the Christian church participated in the Inquisition. Are you aware of all the killing done by Atheist/Socialist rulers? — christian2017

Yes. All allowed and encouraged by governments. Including Christian governments, that all encouraged inquisitions and jihads.

Regards
DL

That's a Christian church with a controversial minister. Don't spread bullshit. — Baden

I mentioned that it is one of many.

Be your own bitch and provide another or ---------------

Atheism is the lack of a (religious) ideology — Baden

I can believe that you do not follow an ideology.

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

What do you call whatever guidance you follow.

Regards
DL

Frank Apisa — Frank Apisa

Given the information just above, I agree.

There as many combinations or variants in thought that are screwing up traditional labels like atheism and religion.

I am trying to focus on the majority within the groups named.

Regards
DL

Why don't you start by telling us what you think religion is, what you think atheism is, and what you think they have to do with each other. — tim wood

Be it a religion or atheists as a group, I class them both as tribal groups. Each has an ideology that they cling to. I KIS that way because of what is going on in reality.

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.
------------
I quote ---

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than—Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebration—one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...theists-religious-european-christians/560936/

Regards
DL

The point is that ideology is necessary for religion, but not sufficient for religion, so not everyone who follows some ideology is therefore religious, even though all religion is ideological. — Pfhorrest

So what would you have me add. A part of their theology, which I have included in their overall ideology? It is already there.

IOW, there is nothing else that they follow.

Or ---- I repeat ----

What would or could be added? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Regards
DL

But why don’t you clarify where your atheism is? — matt

Not being an atheist, I cannot.

I can as a Gnostic Christian and Jesus, I can.

First, you should consider all that is written of Gnostic Christianity by old sources with doubt as much of it is Christian history that was written to justify the many inquisitions sent to annihilate us.

That is like Hitler writing of what Jews believe. Lies, lies and more lies, just as Christianity lied.

This following is likely the best way to proceed. Note that the first scholar is talking of the ancient intelligentsia and their intelligent ways and that Gnostics were a large part of that intelligentsia. That does not mean that I see myself as such. It just says I recognize them and try to emulate them as their ways are my ways.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL


.

I’ve never heard of such things. Link? — Pfhorrest

There are many. Here is one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtJPSmI9pY

Necessary conditions are not sufficient conditions. — Pfhorrest

What else do atheists follow if not their ideology? What would or could be added?

Regards
DL

The idea essential to religion is moral providence. Even Buddhism which does not believe in God believes in moral providence because it believes in the law of karma. So is atheism a religion or not? I'd say it depends. — Vaibhav Narula

I do not like Karma. It is victim blaming. No?

Lets chat on your last

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

Regards
DL

We also shouldn't assume everyone executed during the iquisition was relatively innocent. — christian2017

What had they done, even if guilty, to deserve death?

When Christianity ran out of heretics to kill, they turned to killing witches.

How many of those do you think were real witches and deserved to die?

Regards
DL

...and here was me thinking this might be a thread about atheism... — Banno

It partially is.

What did you think it was going to be about and what were you going to say about it.

I spoke of their good side, you seem to disagree with it, being disappointed and all. Are you one of the evil Christians?

Regards
DL

christian2017
I've never heard someone say Gnostic Christians are the good christians.[/quote]

https://www.google.ca/search?q=john+lennon+the+only+good+christian&sxsrf=ALeKk02otgMe1NTLUBJSmb1LLKWy2O3LUg:1587001922431&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiojODu6uvoAhVHU98KHQGtAtgQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1324&bih=594#imgrc=krfw1FY3YlhXDM

Regards
DL

Everyone thinks they are of the correct opinion — Pfhorrest

True. Christians thing genocide is good, given that Yahweh used it so often.

Gnostic Christians see any god who uses it as satanic. Not to insult Satan.

What do you think and why?

Moral people want to know.

Regards
DL

i disagree. Why do you always post videos to back up what you say instead of articles? Do you have an article to back up your claim. I've never heard someone say Gnostic Christians are the good christians. — christian2017

I do not know what part s you disagree with and to your last, it is not my fault that you have not gotten around enough to hear that.

Why do you think the inquisitions were used if not because we had an ideology that evil Christians could not argue against?

Regards
DL

Man created God for his pleasure. — A Seagull

Indeed. This is good, but then it turns to evil as we ket ourselves be subsumed by them and then let them rule over us.

Gnostic Christians refuse to let that happen. We are like how Jacob is described before he named himself Israel. We strive both for and against god. First to learn, then do better. We strive to be the fittest person which is what god should be defined as.

Regards
DL

Stop using my name in vain pls — Evil

What do stars say?

Any media, good or evil, is good.

You should like that we do you for pleasure.

Regards
DL

Other than essentially not being allowed to be preachers, i don't think the Bible is misogynistic. There is a lot more suicide among men in our modern age than women. — christian2017

I adlib the bible.
He will rule over you. Do not dare try to teach men. Need I say more. If so, do some googling before your reply.

What suicide rates have to do with it is beyond me. Perhaps men know that many women are brighter than them and they can't take it.

Why do you assume divorce benefits women? Women could divorce men if the man cheated. — christian2017

Sure, and be branded as a fornicator to make it harder to find a new husband. Why do you assume a divorce would hurt women, when it allows then to find a loving partner instead of staying in a loveless relationship?

Where in the Bible did God/Jesus condone genocide? I already showed you before that Joshua didn't commit genocide. — christian2017

No you did not as you forgot Noah.

As to Jesus, I thought I quoted this.

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

Both Christianity and Islam are fascist regimes and both threaten to use genocide or inquisitions and jihads on everyone that does not follow them, should they ever get the power.

Why would you think otherwise given their vile murderous history?

Regards
DL

Care to support that statement? It does not make sense of what I have read. — Valentinus

The only support available, I think, is the vast numbers of gods on our menu, and the fact that no god has ever popped up to correct any of us.

I could point to the bible itself that says that god is unknowable, then follow up with a bunch of lies telling us all that they know of an unknowable god.

Many scholars have also made my point over time. Here is how one puts it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

Scriptures say that god is a jealous god. A jealous god would not sit back and let usurper gods take deceive those he loves and would pop up to remind his followers that the other gods are not worthy.

Regards
DL