Ask the scribes. I have no problem understanding what is meant. — Gnostic Christian BishopAlway's glad to find a responsible endorser. A question arises concerning the coherence of the following text, which you understand.
Rev 4;11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. — Gnostic Christian Bishop
Small steps first: who is speaking, and with what authority? (Not to be confused with the author, unless they're the same. — tim wood

We cannot know who said what or when they said it. All we can know is who is said to have said it.

I am dealing with the words and don't care who said them. This same goes for all that is in the Christian book of myths.

I have no problem in coherently reading what is said. What is incoherent to you?

Regards
DL

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

Thanks.

Regards
DL

So you aren't entirely opposed to Kabbalah but you are opposed common Christianity? — christian2017

Kabbalah does not put god above man and is a knowledge and wisdom seeking ideology or thinking system. It is almost extinct and few even know what it is. Further, they are not the homophobic and misogynous and are not victimizing half the planet today with discrimination without a just cause.

I've already showed you in other conversations we had that God/Jesus is not genocidal nor misogynistic. — christian2017

He will rule over you --- be silent in church and do not dare try to teach men is scripture.
Jesus also supports a no-divorce policy for women. Who was more against women getting the vote more than Christian men?

Yahweh already showed his genocidal side often in scriptures and Jesus is going to genocide all who do not accept him when he returns.

All these belie your view. If you are going to make false statement, back them up.

Once again thanks for the book recommendation. I find videos take too much time to watch, in terms of trying to figure out if the video is true or false. — christian2017

She is a scholar. Not a televangelist liar. Books are better, no argument.

Regards
DL

imperfect dna — christian2017

Scriptures say that only perfection can flow from perfection. To think perfection would produce imperfection is linguistically impossible. Then again, the bible shows god's creating as merely good. Just another of many contradictions in the book of myths.

Gnosticism began with the belief in supernatural. Gnosticism at the very least began in the 1st or 2nd century AD if not before. — christian2017

With it' present name perhaps. I think free thinkers have always existed. We know that esoteric system like kabbala started in about the 13th century BCE.

There are also older tradition that have sought wisdom and not some god before that. The oldest serpent shrine is what, 79,000 years old or so.

Your form of Gnosticism doesn't have alot of material available to all as Christianity has. — christian2017

Understood, but Christianity is a stagnant religion that posits that a genocidal god is somehow good and cannot evolve away from that really stupid thinking. Their homophobia and misogyny is also out dated and should have been revised out of their ideology. Gnostic Christianity did evolve in the distant past and we continue to denigrate Yahweh for the prick that he is shown to be. We were never homophobic and misogynous as we tied god's righteousness to equality because we are a universalist religion with a heaven but no hell. Our heaven is also more as Jesus described. Here and now. He also indicated that only the enlightened would see it as he and I do. What do you see?

When people study Kabalah (spelling) the people who want to know more are very often required to sware an oath (similar to free masons) before they can get more information from the Kabalah sage.. — christian2017

Back then, religions/tribes liked to tie in their adherents. It was all about the cash even as it is just that today. That is why so many Christian sects and denominations hate each other so much.

In this day and age you are more likely to get ridiculed for being Christian than a gnostic, so I'm not sure why your type of Gnosticism doesn't have a lot of reading material associated with it. — christian2017

Christianity and Islam have soured the soup, so to speak, and Gnostic Christianity, even though it is hands down the best ideology that I know of, will go the way of all religions, as secularism and laïcité take over the future.

I don't mind as it is close enough morally to Gnostic Christianity.

Secularism looses the esoteric part of religion but so few of us reach the enlightenment stage that few will do the work required to get to that deeper level. I can tell you that it is hard work, and the rewards are individually rewarding but does little for the masses. The limits of enlightenment are not rewarding to those who seek some supernatural unknowable god.

Here is what I found and this link shows how hard it is to express. I just call it a cosmic consciousness and even I do not agree 100% with the description given.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGQTstWVCIw

I can tell you that from within that cosmic consciousness and knowing of our Father Complex, it is impossible for me to know if I was within myself or within an outside cosmic consciousness. DNA research is showing that our DNA stores a lot more information than we thought. We know for a fact that it hold multi-generational information.

If interested in Gnosticism, I recommend you read the Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. She does a great job of analyzing Gnostic Christian thinking.

I also think there is a time limit for enlightenment. I was 39 when I suffered my apotheosis and I think I was a late bloomer because it took me that long to learn how to love or to find love.

Regards
DL

he will choose "evil", — Daniel C

Good thinking and good questions.

God is said to have no wants or needs, which as you know, is not what scriptures say.

They have god in heaven for who knows how long, all alone, and then suddenly decides to create a defective heavenly hosts that he later has to cull for hell, a full third of his defective angels and demons.

IOW, god screwed up even before creating us. Not perfect as you put but only good according to Genesis2.

But in his omniscience, "God" knows in advance what man's choice will be: he will choose "evil", — Daniel C

I cannot agree if as you requested, we stick to the Christian dogma.

Christians seem conflicted on this. They call Eden where we fell, but they also see it as where we were elevated, which is closer to the Jewish and Gnostic Christian interpretations. Why Christianity scrapped the Original Virtue that Jews and I see to a fall is not known, but we do know that that view conflicts with Christianity as they sing in their Exultet hymn that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

They are trying to have their fall while elevating Adam as the sustainer of god's plan.

Not very intelligent that.

Regards
DL

I was under the impression that evil grew out of free will. Isn't that the standard theological stance on evil's origins? The ultimate prize was freedom and evil just happened to be part of that deal. — TheMadFool

True in many cases, but I take the position that our free will is limited by evolution.

Evolution forces us to both cooperate and compete. When we cooperate, there is no evil. When we compete, we create a loser who will feel that evil has befallen him. That is the source of all human against human evil.

We have the free will to choose when we compete, mostly, but we do not have the free will to never compete unless we let ourselves and our line go extinct by exercising it.

Regards
DL

How is this even coherent? — tim wood

Ask the scribes. I have no problem understanding what is meant.

What is incoherent to you? If you need a more modern translation, google away.

Regards
DL

How do you feel about Marcion? — christian2017

I agree with some of his views but not others.

He was using our myths in a literal way to put against the literal reading Christians.

That is just using one set of invented lies against another set of lies.

That is why I stick to reality, which is the Gnostic Christian way as we only believe in things that can be known as true and real.

Ours is more of an ideology than a theology even as we use the god word. God to us is just the best set of rules to live life by. These can change over time depending on the moral maturity of any peoples.

You may have noted that secular law is a hell of a lot better than theistic laws.

The one uniting factor of all Gnostic sects is that we put man above god. We recognize that they are all man made.

Regards
DL

If God can predict everything in 100% detail, but if he also allows room for error, wouldn't it make sense that really bad things would happen? And to go on further that he would know that these things would happen. — christian2017

You propose what breaks the law of the excluded middle. If 100% is known, there is no room for error.

Things are 100% or not. One cannot have both options at the same time.

Gnosticism, but you wouldn't give me any reading material. There are different types of Gnosticism. — christian2017

True, that is why it is better to ask specifics so that I do not have to explain the lies the inquisitors used to try to justify their murders of us.

All types of Gnosticism begin with one being a free thinker and being an esoteric ecumenists with no supernatural beliefs. We are naturalists and know that trying to know the unknown supernatural god is a waste of time. Our myths are just myths to us and were invented as talking points before Christianity went stupid and began to read their myths literally. I seldom use them, other than the more moral or esoteric terms and sayings.

I use the following to show our general modern thinking.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

So you are saying any from of prostitution is alright? — christian2017

I am not interested in reversing all your asinine assumption, especially when you associate me with a religion other than my own.
.
I am also not interested in your lies or attempts to justify your a hole god's genocides based on faith instead of morals.

Regards
DL

1. How do you feel about ancient temple prostitution in ancient Iraq. — christian2017

They were a major part of the economy and had their a great value and the respect of the people.

2. Are you aware Joshua didn't commit genocide because there were plenty of Amorite cities in ancient Iraq at the time of Joshua. ~1300 BC. — christian2017

Genocide need not be a complete decimation of a people. Jews were never close to full extinction but we use genocide to express what happened to them. Jews see Yahweh as evil for some of his instruction to cause destruction.

3. If you killed someone's parents (Amorite/Canaanite) are you supposed to tell the surviving child "i murdered your parents, when you are a teenager you'll understand these adult things" — christian2017

Only if you are stupid.

4. were there adoption agencies in the 2nd millenium? — christian2017

Sure.

5. Would you argue some behavior is worthy of capital punishment? — christian2017

Yes, but only if it is to prevent murder. I do not believe in capital punishment as a nation cannot be seen as revering life if they are taking it. Saving some via murder shows the veneration of life. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

6. Were you aware that the Amorites were known for child sacrifice? The later Jews were too and i understand that . The Bible speaks against that. — christian2017

Where city states had finite resources, it was either kill the new babies or kill the workers who were more important than another hungry mouth that could not feed itself. Baby sacrifices were kept to a minimum and that was helped along by the Temple Prostitutes and the religions that tried to sanctify sex between men and their wives so as to keep pregnancies to a minimum. History has overblown the numbers as most nations did not have to do much of it. Killing babies is revolting to all people and it was only done in dire times.

7. Would you say the Amorite children (non-adults) went to heaven — christian2017

There was no heaven at that time. Just shoal, the grave, if I recall correctly. Christianity invented heaven and hell only much latter.

How does genocide directly (as opposed to indirectly) relate to the teachings of Jesus Christ? Is the Roman Papacy a good way to judge Christianity? — christian2017

Christianity, like all entities, are to be judged on their moral thinking and ethical actions, regardless of their belief in imaginary gods.

As to Jesus and his return, I adlib. Choose me as god or die. That is genocide of all non-believers.

Regards
DL

How do you know how i act outside this forum? — christian2017

I did not speak of that.

How would i prove if you are ethical and how would i prove if im ethical. — christian2017

I would know your moral thinking by what you say. You could lie, sure, but your words are what I would be evaluating.

Regards
DL

i'm sorry Christian Bishop, can you tell Jesus for me? — christian2017

I'm not surprised you do not know him.

Scriptures show you how to know him but you are not interested in following the dictates of a moral man.

Too much of it goes against Christian beliefs.

Regards
DL

I could correct you, but I see no point. — ISeeIDoIAm

Thanks for showing your lying character.

You won this debate.

Regards
DL

i didn't cuss but it was a little too mean so i deleted it. — christian2017

If you thought it, you sinned. So says Jesus. Repent foul sinner. ;-)

Regards
DL

Might we not merely be annoyed with ourselves, or find ourselves dull or fractious, in order to survive? — Ciceronianus the White

We are already as you describe and things are getting worse. I would add stupid to your list.

Regards
DL

Thanks for the chat.

Regards
DL

Correceth, is not hateth. — Coben

I never indicated it was while quoting that it is the loving thing to do. Reading comprehension is good.

So, what you are saying is 'my idea that we hate ourselves is the only approach that can work. — Coben

Loving sure has not worked. I did not qualify my views as the only approach. Stop putting you lies into my mouth, please.

As to your personal psychobabble. Shove it.

Regards
DL

insistence that we love one another. — Valentinus

He can insist all he likes.

Go ahead and explain how you would show your love to the rapist on your wife.

What of all the Christians who love a genocidal god?

Is that them loving their enemy?

You are positing an unconditional love and there is no such thing. It is not natural as love always has conditions to be real love. Like the need for reciprocity, works and deeds, which BTW, is how Jesus defined love.

Regards
DL

the rabbit hole. — ISeeIDoIAm

Mind your own hole, junior league ump.

Regards
DL

Could we find some grounding in what your belief structure is? For instance: what distinction are you pointing at when describing "self love" vs "self hate". I'm assuming this has become a semantics issue. — ISeeIDoIAm

Not really semantics to me, but I may have answered you with my last reply. Let me know.

What I am trying to do is have people think in the way this scripture shows.

https://biblehub.com/romans/7-15.htm

Regards
DL

Coben — Coben

You want to hate many things, to improve things, yet ignore that it is mankind who is doing the destroying and should be hated.

We default to loving ourselves and each other and unless we change to what you dislike, nothing will change.

Love more like scriptures tell you to love, which is the way I love.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

You do not seem to want to love that much.

Regards
DL

They are not perfect reflectors of reality. — Coben

I aske for examples and you talk about cameras.

Belief in miracles is for the brain dead.

Regards
DL

What do you mean by 'hate of self' here. Are you actually suggesting we learn to hate ourselves? — Coben

We are the enemy of the environment and should hate what we do to it. I do not separate what we do from what we are, so hate whatever you like of those two options.

Here you are appealing to our self-love. Many of us will die, our lives with be less good, those that survive. — Coben

Yes, as we are allowing our default position of love to rule us when I think we should let our hate for what we hate rule us and move us to do the right thing for the future generations, if it is not already too late to mitigate that harm.

Hating the systems is not the same as hating the self, or? — Coben

Are we not a part of the systems we should hate?

Take us out of it and all you can hate is the system. I don't care as long as we get the people running those systems. It always comes down to us. We are our systems.

Regards
DL

But even without any dishonesty all sorts of miraculous things can be confirmed or 'confirmed'. — Coben

Such as?

Regards
DL

a miracle is just one camera trick away. — TheMadFool

So are aliens.

Neither aliens or gods are curing amputees.

Regards
DL

I am saying that if we do not have a one world government ot theoc4racy, we will not solve our many problems and will likely curse our children with a near extinction.

How much of our garbage do you want to pass up to your children?

China's interests are well met with laïcité French style. For now, I like what China is doing they are fighting fascist religions with fascist programs.

Regards
DL

Foolishness.

Regards
DL

holy insight. — Eleonora

That is a title that can only be given to your insight. To label it yourself as holy shows a poor use of language and an over inflated ego.

Regards
DL

Because until you know her, you cannot fully comprehend yourself. — Eleonora

Comprehension was not the issue. Equality of all our man made gods was.

Regards
DL

I am my God. — Eleonora

Then explain why you would put your goddess above my god?

Are we not all created equal and in gods image?

Gnostic Christians are universalists. That is one of it's highest forms of perfection as an ideology.

Regards
DL

There is no such thing as believing the wrong thing. — Eleonora

The religious say that when trying to justify their immoral homophobic and misogynous teachings.

It would have been nice though if the inquisitions had thought that way.

Christians would not have murdered so many, even of their own brain dead ilk.

Regards
DL

Then you are not above God in my meaning. — Eleonora

Your god is a moral monster.

What attracts you to her?

Regards
DL

For some, that god commanded genocide and infanticide is disputable. — TheMadFool

Not to literalists and the vast majority of Christians are to some degree, literalists.

They have to be to believe in Satan and Jesus, heaven and hell.

I agree with your view of the witnesses.

Miracles ended when the camera was invented.

Regards
DL

So is Gnostic Christianity then an agnostic form of atheistic approach on Christianity? You know your brain doesn't have to be dead to utilize your heart indiscriminately, right? Why even filter what goes on in between? — Eleonora

Gnosis is the root word for agnostic.

We are the esoteric/mystical parts of early Chrestianity, Christianity, Judaism and their Kabbalists.

We, like Buddhists and other enlightened religions, put man above god because we know we have invented all of them.

We do believe in a spark of god within each of us but that is more of our instincts to have us be the fittest.

Read on Jung and Freud's Father Complex. That is the modern form of the spark of god within us.

Humans are more than most think, but we are not supernatural.

Regards
DL

Why are the religious such ass holes?

Regards
DL

We're so lucky to have someone enlightened like you — christian2017

I do not see a denial.

Don't be an ass hole, if you can help it.

Regards
DL

. And there can't be its end. — Anonim

Strange that the rest of your universe is dualistic, yet you create an exception for your god.

I care if you are following the immoral ways of the mainstream religions. Are you?

Have you rejected their vile ideologies?

Regards
DL

There are the indisputable facts - fossils and all - but these facts point to creationism as much as it points to evolution et al. — TheMadFool

Even if creationism were true, would you kneel to a genocidal and infanticidal god and think such a moral monster to be good?

Regards
DL

Wayfarer — Wayfarer

+ 1 for this.

Regards
DL