schopenhauer1
4.2k
↪Frank Apisa
But c'mon.. nothing will change. More technology doesn't change the way money is distributed. Revolutions in ways of life seem to cause massive death, so that's out. My advice is to simply not put more units of labor to experience work in the first place (don't have kids!). If you put someone in a game they didn't ask for and then say, "But you should like it because I like it", that seems pretty unfair, and now they are stuck with your decision. — schopenhauer1

I suspect that if everyone were guaranteed a decent life...MANY THINGS WOULD CHANGE.

I won't see it. (I'm 83) But my guess is that there are people alive right now who will see the drastic change needed. Capitalism, as now constituted in America, cannot be sustained. Capitalistic entities, by their nature, demand that profits be MAXIMIZED. What that means is that labor will get screwed.

Once we got past the hunter/gatherer societies...labor always has been the factor of production that gets screwed. Kings and nobles were not interested in sharing wealth with peasants any more than absolutely necessary. The rich class is not interested in it either.

Chester
179
↪NOS4A2 Many jobs can not be done by machine...especially the sort of stuff I do, but the real drudge can be done by machine...fruit picking..law... that sort of shit. — Chester

Right you are. No machine will ever be able to deliver TLC when needed like a human nurse; no machine will be able to serve up a shoulder to cry on like a good human bartender; and no machine will ever fashion a hand-made tie...or a home-made pasta dish like a competent cook.

But it is amazing how many jobs machines can do better and more productively than humans.

That is something we have to deal with.

Now would be a good time.

Quick story:

I had a friend who was a night janitor at a YMCA. It was a great job...he loved it...and was good at it. He came in when the Y closed...and worked until morning when it opened.

He was so efficient, he could do all the cleaning (very much to the satisfaction of the Director)...and still have time to shoot some hoops; practice his handball solo; lift some in the weight room; work on the rat-a-tat-tat and heavy bag...and shower before going home.

Trouble was...every once in a while the local magistrate used to sentence some offenders to community service hours...and he would require some of them to satisfy their hours at the Y.

My friend used to end up with 6 - 8 - sometimes 10 "helpers" on some shifts.

On those shifts, the place never got completely cleaned...and he had to work his butt off after they left in order to catch up. Those shifts...no hoops, no handball practice, no lifting, no punching the bags, and no shower before leaving.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Ain't hard to figure out.

Chester
177
↪Frank Apisa Not wanting to work is not the same as not being good at it. — Chester

I agree totally.

BUT...not wanting to work often results in a person not doing a productive job.

Chester
173
↪NOS4A2 I used to think that but since if been on furlough I've decided I quite like not working. There's plenty to get on with provided you're not struggling for money...plus the missus and I get on well most of the time. Work is generally an unfulfilling drudgery for many people...especially those without the qualifications or training to get a skill/career as opposed to job. — Chester

Right you are. Spending more time with the family...tending more carefully to the house and yard...reading more books...playing more golf...

...all make life just as fulfilling as working.

We've introduce BILLIONS of slaves into our workforce...and we are still struggling to work harder.

Fucking nuts.

jamalrob
2.3k
Believe it or not many people want to work, not just out of necessity, but because it provides purpose, dignity, and fulfillment.
— NOS4A2

Yes. — jamalrob

And many do not want to work. Better to give them what they need to live a reasonable life...and keep 'em the hell out of the way.

Everyone here has worked with someone who would increase productivity by simply staying home. OFTEN it is a boss...or a supervisor. But there are plenty of peons who fit that shell also.

The people who are not productive should not be allowed to work.

People DO NOT HAVE TO WORK.

In fact, America could dramatically increase its overall productivity...if it limited the number of people who are allowed to work.

EVERYONE should be provided with "enough"...and "enough" should be defined as the kind of life one could live if earning $50,000 to $60,000 per year.

That should be the basic.

Then...the ones allowed to work...can fight it out the way "getting more" is fought right now.

EVERYONE should be provided with the means to live a decent life without working for it...and then the ones who WANT TO WORK...and who are productive enough not to be a drag on productivity...can duke it out for the MORE.

I KNOW MORE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT SMOKE DOPE BUT WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM SMOKING SOME...

...THAN I KNOW WHO DO SMOKE IT BUT WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM GIVING IT UP.

Any "rights" you suppose you have, you have only because other people fought and died to obtain.

But we do have "natural rights" insofar as we can die in an attempt to get other rights.

prothero
238
↪StreetlightX I'm not sure if your counting me as "one of these people". I merely think Biden has a responsiblity to put forward a coherent message of his vision for the nation and I do not see that he is being successful at that. I am optimistic that a message of hope would prevail over a message of fear and division but I am hearing a message from Trump and from Biden there is barely any message at all getting through. Surely a candidate for president does have an obligation and responsiblity to articulate his vision for the future. — prothero

Take your fingers out of your ears, Prothero.

The message is there...and is being articulated. The reason you are not hearing it is because you are refusing to hear it.

neonspectraltoast
161
I don't trust Biden as far as I can throw him. I know he really serves the money. Great that you want Trump gone. There may be a whole lot of people just like you. There are people like me, too, who none of you respect and evidently just don't need.

I'm not voting, and I don't feel I matter enough to help determine who wins. Your idea of appealing to people like me is looking down on us and trying to shame us into voting. And for what? Biden? I can't relate to that clown.

A vote is a personal expression. It's about what you want to be personally responsible for. It's not what you say it is; it's what I say it is. And I don't like this society, of which Trump and Biden are both symptoms of the same problem.

You've got no problem with it. Fine. I do. I'm not into what this society is. Biden or Trump, you get the same society. Biden is just a placeholder for the next utter fascist who sparks the interest of the status quo.

In fact, we might be safer with Trump, because at least he's dumb and we all know it. What happens when a charismstic, yet evil, politician comes along? Electing Biden does nothing to change that fate. In fact, he engenders it.

The malfunction is society as a whole. — neonspectraltoast

I'm not trying to shame you into anything. Your overwhelming negativism is the price you are paying for being alive.

Pay it if you must.

What I owe the country and the future of the planet is to remove the cancer from office. The next step -- and this is important -- is to push the Biden administration to the extreme. — Xtrix

THAT!

If he doesn't listen at all, then perhaps the next election vote in a (sensible) Republican out of spite. But the Republicans are now so dangerous that I can't see myself voting for them unless there's a major overhaul, particularly about science. — Xtrix

And also THAT.

Yeah, very different thing. The language matters because it's about responsibility. The only people directly responsible for Trump being in office are those who vote for him. — Baden

Bullshit.

The only people who think that way...are people who don't truly think. They just shoot off their mouths.

An election is about a lot more than getting people to vote FOR you...it also is about working to insure others DO NOT vote for your opponent.

That is the reason the GOP is so anxious to get as few people to the polls as possible...because fewer people voting help insure their victory.

People with your mindset, Baden, are as much responsible for Trump having been elected...as are the people who actually voted for Hillary Clinton.

And people with your mindset may be responsible for getting Trump re-elected. All so that you can claim some bogus moral superiority.

I repeat something I previously shared: People with your mindset, Baden, are the reason brilliant men like Voltaire, Confucius, and Shakespeare wrote:

“The best is the enemy of the good.”

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."

“Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.”

Benkei
2.9k
↪Frank Apisa Summary: "not Trump" therefore decent. As I said, very low expectations.

I get that you're at the point where voting for the lesser evil feels like a morally outstanding act (I disagree but we don't need to repeat that dance ad nauseum). But you're still voting for a sleazebag so let's not call Biden decent, shall we? — Benkei

I consider Biden to be a decent man...and an intelligent one.

If you do not like that consideration...don't read what I write.

I had a higher priority choice, but now that Biden has it, I support him with enthusiasm. Our country will be a much better country with him at the helm.

Benkei
2.9k
but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career.
— Frank Apisa

You've got rather low expectations. — Benkei

No, I do not have low expectations. I have realistic expectations.

And I am not as jaded as some of the people who populate the Internet forums.

At 83, I've seen several instances of "these are the worst of times."

Meh. I did live during the Second World War...so I've seen some really horrible times. But even then, I was living in America...and the shooting and bombing being felt in Europe and the Far East were not a part of my life.

I did live during the Vietnam War...and the turbulent 60's - 70's. In some ways, that was even more ghastly.

I lived through the Nixon era...and thought that was horrendous. But compared with today...that was a piece of cake. Nixon, with all of his faults, was ten times the president that Trump could ever be...even if Trump were able to get past mental age 8.

Biden will be enough of an improvement over Trump to make all this chatter about his "character" and "intellectualism" to be like talking about sunscreen during a nuclear attack.

StreetlightX
5.2k
The only thing to blame if Trump is reelected is the superficiality, stupidity, childishness, and greed of Democrats.
— neonspectraltoast

And people here - and elsewhere - want to reward them for it, and then blame those who do not.

Notably, unlike a certain bullshit effort of mental gymnastics in which not voting counts as voting, this is a rather straightforward case in which voting for someone tautologically implies support. — StreetlightX

I support Joe Biden. He was not my first choice...but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career. He's make lots of mistakes...which is what happens when you do a lot.

So withhold your vote...and aid Trump.

Sounds to me like you should be supporting him outright. You sound like one of those kind.

StreetlightX
5.2k
God you're thick lol. — StreetlightX

No. YOU are, though.

You are moving the goalposts all over the place to make it seem you have a decent argumetn.

Ain't gonna happen...because you do not.

So...best to continue with the deflection. That IS what you've got.

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa I'm sorry you don't English good. Must be a hard life.

Also you like using explicit sexual imaginary alot. You got some issues to work out. — StreetlightX

We were discussing senators forcing staff up against a wall and forcing their fingers into their vagina.

We were discussing how difficult that would be.

Now you are presenting cases of politicians doing things that easily can be done...as evidence that the near impossible could easily be done.

Quit while you are far behind. You obviously do not have the intellectual resources to catch up.

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa Maybe you missed my Wiki link.

:sparkle: Here it is again. :sparkle:

Here's at least :sparkle: 90 lawmakers since 2017 :sparkle: at the state level alone. — StreetlightX

Wow...a list. What next...a grocery list?

Please point out on that list where a senator backed a woman up against a wall in the Capitol Building...and put his forced his hands into her vagina.

THAT was what we were discussing.

Supposedly, according to Baden, it happens all the time.

So?

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa I don't just think it - I'm going by juridical record. Feel free to ignore reality of course.

Scratch an establishment politican, find a moral lowlife. — StreetlightX

There is a "judicial record" of senators backing staffers up against the walls in the Capitol Building...and shoving their fingers into their vaginas?

What the hell world are you living in?

StreetlightX
5.2k
What planet do YOU live on, Baden?
— Frank Apisa

This one, where the American halls of political power are filled to the literal brim with sexual misconduct. And that endless list being just the convicted ones.

The pearl clutching is hilarious. Your senators and representatives are sexual freaks, and have been since day one. Biden 'hair sniff hall predator' is no exception, but a conformist to the rule. — StreetlightX

So you are another one who thinks senators regularly back staffers into walls and shove their fingers up their vaginas?

Jesus H. Christ!

Baden
10.2k
The accusation against Biden does not make sense to me. It seems to me to violate what a famous lawyer called "the rule of probability." That is, in the particulars it seems too unlikely and improbable.
— tim wood

No it doesn't. It's not only very probable, it happens all the time. E.g. Trump, Clinton. What planet do you live on? — Baden

It happens all the time????????

A person who has never been accused of any kind of sex deviance at all...and a SENATOR at that...

...attempts to assault a woman IN THE HALLS OF THE SENATE IN THE CAPITOL BUILDING!

Backs the woman against the wall...and manages to insert his fingers into her vagina?

THAT happens all the time?

What planet do YOU live on, Baden?

neonspectraltoast
159
I can't vote for a rapist. I'll be sitting this one out. — neonspectraltoast

If you do not vote...you will not be "sitting this one out." You will be helping Trump. Trump, and the GOP, are hoping as many people as possible "sit this one out." Trump and the GOP are doing every thing they can to get as many people as possible to "sit this one out."

Although the technology is richer every day, at the level of desires that underlie these technologies there is nothing new under the sun.
What will happen after everything we currently want to be invented in terms of technology will be invented? — Eugen

We will ask for it, all of it, to be improved.

Interesting take on the issue, Ernest. Original.

Actually, killing someone infringes on all sorts of rights...but since the 2nd Amendment specifies the "infringement issue" it seems to have merit here.

Allow me to be frank with you. You should pursue it earnestly...and see where it leads.

jgill
476
I like what Biden has to say about climate change, but I think more emphasis needs be placed on preparing for climate change. Water rising in the streets in Miami, . . .. :worry: — jgill

Sounds like a reasonable take on the issue, jgill.

Trump has the constitutional means to call off the up-coming election and remain in office. — frank

He does?

How so?

The focus on Trump's boorish character, for example, is usually just a distraction, — Baden

Baden...how can you say that Trump's boorish character is "usually just a distraction"...

...when you specifically said, "The point here is to highlight the fact that at some point, the character of the person elected must matter."

Are you suggesting that "the character of the person" matters...unless it entails the character defect of "boorishness?" Do you not see that "boorishness" in the leader of a nation like America is essentially disqualifying? How does one thread the needle of diplomacy with other nations (and with other domestic political sensibilities) with the limitless supply of boorishness Trump brings to the table?

Engaging in speculation about character is superficial and easy. It matters to those who can't think their way out of a plastic bag - don't play that game. — Xtrix

Good advice. I thank you for it.

But tough to follow.

Baden was essentially faulting me on the issue of not paying enough attention to the fact that "the character of the person elected must matter."

IN A DISCUSSION REGARDING JOE BIDEN VERSUS TRUMP!

Incredible to me. But I will attempt to heed your advice. Depends in part on the kind of new comments that come forth.

Baden
10.1k
As for your friend Frank, Xtrix:

But if it were a choice between an accused pedophile Joe Biden and Trump...

...I would choose Biden before Trump in an instant.
— Frank Apisa

Any comment on that hypothetical? Do you see anything potentially wrong with making a credibly accused pedophile, President? The point here is to highlight the fact that at some point, the character of the person elected must matter. — Baden

Jesus H. Christ, Baden.

IF the choice is between Trump and Joe Biden...

...IF...

...(and that seems to be the choice that we will face here)...

...and "the character of the person" MUST MATTER...

...how is the hell can you find fault with me saying that I would choose Biden over
Trump in an instant.

In your hypothetical, one would be an ACCUSED (!) pedophile against whom almost no other credible charges have ever been made...and the other is a self-acknowledged shit pile of immorality against whom hundreds of charges...ranging from cheating people out of money to whoring...have been made? In addition, Trump is a crook, a whore-monger, and an ignorant, stupid, classless boor.

What is motivating you to argue what you seem to be arguing?

Anyone not doing everything he/she can to finally vote Trump out of office...is taking a dump on the Republic.

Get off your nonsense.

frank
4.9k
↪Baden This is Linda Hirshman with a fuck-ton more interest in the question than you'll ever have.

From the NYT


"I’ll vote for Mr. Biden this fall.

I won’t say it will be easy. I have been writing on and agitating for women’s equality since “The Feminine Mystique” came out in 1963. I know how supposedly “liberal” men abused the sexual revolution in every imaginable way. I am unimpressed by their lip service to feminism, their Harvard degrees or their donations to feminist causes.

In 1998, I was one of a few establishment feminists to argue on behalf of Monica Lewinsky, when the unofficial representative of the movement, Gloria Steinem, threw her under the bus in the pages of The New York Times to protect Bill Clinton. I maintained my position until, two decades and a #MeToo movement later, Ms. Steinem issued a non-apology for the essay. So I hate, hate, hate to say the following.

Suck it up and make the utilitarian bargain.

All major Democratic Party figures have indicated they’re not budging on the presumptive nominee, and the transaction costs of replacing him would be suicidal. Barring some miracle, it’s going to be Mr. Biden."

She says dispense with the "gotcha" you chimps. — frank

Thank you, Frank, and my thanks to Linda Hirshman.

How these geniuses think the transition to someone else would not be political suicide is beyond me.

In any case, Joe Biden has been a pragmatic, intelligent, reasonable guy for his entire career. I not only will vote for him...I will do so with pleasure and enthusiasm.

Shawn
10.6k
I'm getting mad depression dudes. Idk what's going on lately. — Shawn

Some kind of virus goin' around.

But if it were a choice between an accused pedophile Joe Biden and Trump...

...I would choose Biden before Trump in an instant.
— Frank Apisa

Seek help. — Baden

For what?

Baden
10.1k
In any case, what you term "morals" factors in very low on my list of qualities I want in a president.
— Frank Apisa

So if it turned out Biden was a paedophile, you'd still support him? (Or to make it more analogous, let's say he was credibly accused of paedophilia). What exactly would he have to do for you not to support him? — Baden

One...I said "morals" (or what others consider "morals')...were low on my list of qualifications...not absent from the list. I would, like any other sane person, hope for a "moral" president. But the term "morals" can be rather twisted. There are some (probably many, in the US) who would consider being "God fearing" to be moral...and being agnostic or atheistic to be immoral. I consider that to be nonsense.

Two...if a CREDIBLE accusation of pedophilia were made against Biden...I would be hugely disappointed. HUGELY! (I would also be hugely skeptical.)

But if it were a choice between an accused pedophile Joe Biden and Trump...

...I would choose Biden before Trump in an instant.

In my opinion, Trump MUST BE removed from office.

Hanover
5.5k
And below them...will be the people who are doing what you are doing, Baden. That bottom group will be regarded as the true sludge.
— Frank Apisa

I understand the approach of supporting the ideology but not the person. You can logically be a good person and vote for a bad person. It really comes down to what degree you expect your leaders to be good people versus wanting them to support your views.

I don't follow your position tough. You blast Trump for being a disgusting person and provide that as reason not to support him, but you give Biden a pass for the same behavior. — Hanover

I most assuredly do NOT give Biden a pass on any behavior, Hanover.

I suggest, as strongly as possible, that he is a MUCH better choice when the choice becomes Biden or Trump...as it seems to be settling.

If Biden is guilty of assaulting Reade, I condemn it in the strongest terms, but I still would choose him over Trump.

ASIDE: For reasons I have outlined elsewhere, I suspect the thrust of Reade's accusations are false. Something almost certainly did happen...but not nearly the kind of thing she is alleging.

Logic would require some consistency here. Either be a pragmatist and vote for a bad person whose politics you agree with (and so withhold your criticisms when your Trump opponents do the same), or condemn anyone who votes for a morally bad person. — Hanover

Logic would not require that at all...in any way.

In any case, what you term "morals" factors in very low on my list of qualities I want in a president. I want competency, intelligence, and a desire to put the country before self as much as possible...much higher.

I've expressed some reservation in convicting Biden myself, despite mounting evidence because I do think as a society we're too quick to judge. However I do wish to distance myself from any suggestion that the accusation against Biden couldn't possibly have occurred because digital penetration is impossible without arousal and consent. That argument indicates an irrational advocate unwilling to accept any damaging evidence. — Hanover

I suspect SOMETHING happened...but not what Reade is alleging. As for disagreement with my position...I accept that you disagree. If it is necessary for you to think of me as "an irrational advocate unwilling to accept any damaging evidence"...I will have to live with that.

I take your position really to be to do whatever is necessary to get Biden elected, regardless of what double standards, logical contradictions, or ad homs you have to engage in. Fair enough, but I don't think that position holds much weight in a philosophy forum and it's very doubtful that's a winning marketing strategy either. — Hanover

"Take" whatever you want regarding my "position" on this issue. I have stated my position clearly...and it does not match up with your characterization of it.

Baden
10.1k
↪Frank Apisa

It's you and the Dem machine who want Trump to win. Why else would you be getting behind a senile accused rapist? You realize without suburban women, you have zero hope of winning, right? You realize vast swathes of them are not going to vote for someone they think is a rapist? And you realize you can't make them forget about Tara Reade by calling them Nazis? What you need to do is make Biden stand down. If you don't do that, I conclude you want Trump to win. — Baden

Conclude what you want.

Last election I supported and voted for Hillary Clinton...and attempted, as much as possible, to persuade the people who spoke against her (but who obviously realized the danger of a Trump presidency) to stop speaking against her and to rally to her cause, because doing what they were doing was aiding Trump in his election bid.

This time, I realize the jerk-offs who are doing the same thing to Joe Biden...ARE jerk-offs...and not worth the effort to entreat them to pull their heads out of their asses.

Trump will be remembered in history as the most disgusting, destructive thing that ever happened to our Republic. His supporters will be regarded as slightly below him on the ladder of loyalty to nation and and sanity.

And below them...will be the people who are doing what you are doing, Baden. That bottom group will be regarded as the true sludge.

Well...it seems that the people who helped insure Trump's election in 2016...are at work seeing to it that he will be re-elected.

What a bunch of chumps.

What you are perceiving as "punishment" may not be primarily a punishment.

If a person murders and is sent to prison...is that "punishment" or is it simply removal from society in order to protect those the offender has not already murdered?