A bit of the here-and-there regarding culture Mar-May:

^{• Putin lashes out at Russians with Western mentality (CNN; Mar 17, 2022)
• Putin Lashes Out at 'National Traitors' with Pro-Western Views (The Moscow Times; Mar 18, 2022)
• Putin lashes out at West ‘cancelling’ Russian culture, says it reeks of Hitler’s Germany (TASS; Mar 25, 2022)
• We should all be concerned that Putin is trying to destroy Ukrainian culture (The Conversation; Mar 22, 2022)
• A Kremlin paper justifies erasing the Ukrainian identity, as Russia is accused of war crimes (CBC; Apr 5, 2022)
• Why is Ukraine trying to cancel Russian culture? (Al Jazeera; May 6, 2022)}

Not pretty. Control, domination, self-power. Bears peripheral resemblance to:

^{• Canadian Indian residential school system (Wikipedia)
• Uyghur genocide (Wikipedia)}

:/

Some things mentioned earlier in the thread, apologies for the repeat...

• Putin's Russia goes (increasingly) autocratic non-democratic authoritarian oppressive
• the Donbas has been an organized staging area for some time
• grabs Crimea
• flaunts nuclear weaponry and delivery systems
• rolls out the submission-machine, bombing killing ruining shamming
• annexes four more Ukrainian regions (anti-NATO rhetoric still applicable)

Putin's (supposed) NATO-phobia thing has run low on hot air.

• the Ukrainians look elsewhere than Putin's Russia, Putin's actions might be creating a lot of Ukrainian Russo-haters (bad, and almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy)
• there's already a strip free of nuclear weapons in the north, Canada and the Nordic countries (as far as we know at least, and Putin apparently believes so)
• NATO would instead limit Kremlin's free movements/actions (with or without nuclear weapons in Ukraine pointing at Moscow)
• in retrospect, Ukraine seeking NATO membership has proved understandable, defense alone

Net result as of typing: by fire and sham, Putin has declared a fifth of Ukraine part of Russia.
, there you have some "strategic interests", happily married to domination, control, nationalism.

Things changed after in 2008 NATO stated they wanted to incorporate Ukraine — Tzeentch

The Russians have been saying that the matter of Ukraine is an existential threat to them since at least 2008, and it has been a hot topic way before — Tzeentch

Or perhaps Putin's aggressive tendencies reached a threshold in 2004 when his guy lost (to be ousted in 2014).
Putin has elaborated on his ambition for Ukraine to be Russian, standard procedures in progress.
What do you think could get in the way of Putin's "make Russia great again" mission?

Anyway, nothing new here, for which I apologize.

Funny how this has all of a sudden become a rallying cry. — Isaac

Does that disturb you? ;) Not much of a rallying cry, though, and hardly sudden. Besides, becoming a member isn't (just) their choice, seeking membership is. And Putin needed no more than that, by a logic to make things go south. :/

, you replaced my words with your own characterization — a characterization that would fit, what, half the nations on Earth? More?

Trying to remember what nations have threatened Putin's Russia with invasion/takeover, or a downright existential threat, but coming up short. There were some distressing mutual assured destruction situations during the cold war. Gay rights or democracy (or McDonald's) or whatever isn't an invasion. Yet, Putin's Russia is the victim here? That's the ultimate conclusion?

I don't (personally) agree with this statement by the Lithuanian minister, I'll just observe that it only takes one party to start/make war, no manner of votes or words can change that, call it "free will" if you like: "Nobody wants a World War, but dictators can only be stopped with weapons."

I'll just sneak a "missing" bit in. :)

"helping" the Ukrainians get slaughtered [by Putin's orders] — Manuel

By the way, they say there's been a surprising amount of unity/direction among the Ukrainians.
ROC style (in english)?

You see, if NATO would collapse (like SEATO and CENTO) and EU would become disorganized, Russia could approach every European country on a bilateral basis. And on a one-on-one basis Russia is strong and quite dominant towards every West European country. And that is the objective. It is the objective of an imperialist great power: it won't attack everybody, but sure wants to dominate all the relationships. It's not going to invade every country it can, hence it's not the Mongol Horde you are talking about. So the idea that Russia would try to invade all of Europe is quite naive. Yet without an EU and Atlanticism, Russia is the top dog in Europe. — ssu

:up: It's just the old divide and conquer strategy. (As an aside, Putin's cyber-henchmen have employed similar methods on the information highways to sow division/distrust.)

Let me play the threat-game for a moment ...

We, Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia, can't have weapons of mass destruction pointed our way sitting on our doorstep. Should actions toward that come to pass, we'd have to take counter-measures. And in case of threats from non-democratic regimes, more decisive measures.

That's Putin's logic applied if Ukraine was "enrolled" into Russia, and is equally applicable to Ukraine until then.

^{(Moldova is not a NATO member, the others are. Poland since 1999, Romania 2004, Hungary 1999, Slovakia 2004. Finland and Sweden are expected to become members.)}

EDIT: grammar

Things have taken some U-turns.

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky has said he is no longer pressing for NATO membership for his country, while he also said he is open to "compromise" on the status of Luhansk and Donetsk in the Donbas region — Peter Suciu · National Interest · Mar 11, 2022

President Volodymyr Zelensky has hit back at Russia's annexation moves by seeking accelerated membership of Nato.
That is a marked change from the start of the war, when he announced he would stop pushing for membership of the 30-strong Western defensive alliance because of Nato's concern about confrontation with Russia. He knows, however, that he will have to persuade every member state to agree, and Turkey for one is unlikely to. — Paul Kirby · BBC · Sep 30, 2022

Unless Ukraine is assimilated by Russia, this might continue, it's the Ukrainians' choice to make.

Recognition of Donbas, no. Recognition of Crimea -- maybe. — Xtrix

I'm guessing a neutral but independent Crimea would be unacceptable to Putin. Any chance of that?

For that matter, there has been past resentment/animosity between Poland and Ukraine, yet Poles have been quite helpful to Ukrainians in the present crisis. Things change. (Also, I'm sure Poles have little patience with Nazism.) What might the reasons be?

Sounds like a value judgement to me, which aren't very useful when trying to understand a political situation. What does it matter what you and I want? It has no impact on what is happening and why it is happening. — Tzeentch

It's not a hermetically sealed evaluation, you'll have to keep the rest in mind alongside.

As an example, if Putin had gone towards real democracy, transparency, non-authoritarianism, free press, less use of polonium-210, whatever (quite a bit has been posted right here in the thread already), then lots of people would be looking in this direction, be more enthusiastic. The autocratic non-democratic non-transparent authoritarian oppressive kleptocratic leadership/regime is a killer.

, returning to your comment and my followup, did you then confirm/deny any of this...?

no love lost if Putin's Russia was to remain more of a regional power than a superpower (e.g. without annexations) — jorndoe

straightforward that any number of nations (not just the US) are distrusting Putin's autocratic non-democratic non-transparent authoritarian oppressive leadership — here "distrusting" might be too mild a word — from what we've heard/seen, Putin is forcing it, little reconciliatory gestures, bona fides signs lacking

And for our country, this is ultimately a matter of life and death, a matter of our historical future as a people. And this is not an exaggeration: it is true. This is a real threat not just to our interests, but to the very existence of our state, its sovereignty. — Putin · Feb 24, 2022

↑ Fear-mongering an alleged existential threat, that instead proved an existential threat to Ukraine, then, depending on the Ukrainian situation, subsequently Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia — jorndoe

[NATO] limiting their [Kremlin's] free movements/actions

After all, context, perspective, all that, right?

Is it any wonder that Ukraine wanted to join NATO?

(like Sweden and Finland since)

Ukraine has received a fair amount of help, adding to the story.

, doesn't look like Putin is going anywhere.

What do you think of a neutral Ukraine?

, your comment has that faint whiff of nefarious conspiracy theory.

Sure, it's not that difficult to find something that's consistent with the theory (like most conspiracy theories), and, for that matter, there's no love lost if Putin's Russia was to remain more of a regional power than a superpower (e.g. without annexations).

From there on, to declare your comment more or less factual is rather questionable.

For example, it's more straightforward that any number of nations (not just the US) are distrusting Putin's autocratic non-democratic non-transparent authoritarian oppressive leadership — here "distrusting" might be too mild a word — from what we've heard/seen, Putin is forcing it, little reconciliatory gestures, bona fides signs lacking.

And for our country, this is ultimately a matter of life and death, a matter of our historical future as a people. And this is not an exaggeration: it is true. This is a real threat not just to our interests, but to the very existence of our state, its sovereignty. — Putin · Feb 24, 2022

↑ Fear-mongering an alleged existential threat, that instead proved an existential threat to Ukraine, then, depending on the Ukrainian situation, subsequently Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia (and, by extension, Europe).

Is it any wonder that Ukraine wanted to join NATO?

NATO and whatever/whoever are apparently in the way of Putin's Kremlin's ambitions, limiting their free movements/actions (also consistent with observations), and hence NATO and whatever/whoever are the evil ones here. Ironically perhaps, Putin's war has put Russia at risk.

A neutral Ukraine, again? What happened to that?

what Russia is doing is criminal — Manuel

It's not really the entirety of Russia, I'd say the autocratic Russian leadership. Of course some would blame the population at large for not ousting the leadership, I just don't think it's that easy/simple. As far as I can tell (conjecture on my part), Putin's agenda is one of domination, national pride, and it seems the end justifies the means. Then a real-life chess game.

, I need a memory upgrade. Curiosity will get the best of me.

do you write all of these links out yourself, or are these somehow copy-and-paste jobs? — Xtrix

By and large, they're docs that scroll by elsewhere (notifiers, friends, family, feeds, facebook, twitter, the evening news, etc), then I scan through some for broader context, do a bit of searching/checking, and keep some in text files. Yep, occasionally I reuse/post stuff from those text files, and yep I do type the darn forum code in myself. :) I suppose it is a bit of work, though it has become a habit to do fairly quickly. (Some of these forum posts of mine were typed into a text file first, including this one.)

FYI (not that it matters here), elsewhere I started a pandemic tracker mid-2020 or so, which has grown to a tediously long list of docs/links/events/whatever. Over time it became littered with anti-vaxxer stuff and such, probably as many as scientific studies.

(if that answers your question)

Talks could start by Putin calling Zelenskyy, or Zelenskyy calling Putin. That'd be fantastic. :up:

Meanwhile, Putin rolled out the submission-machine months ago, which has been offloading artillery fire and missiles since. A fairly impressive amount at that, occasionally unleashing the mercs during Vodka breaks.

• Stop attacks on health care in Ukraine (Mar 13, 2022)
• Ukraine sees room for compromise, as 20,000 escape Mariupol (Mar 16, 2022)
• Ukraine: Deadly Attacks Kill, Injure Civilians, Destroy Homes (Mar 18, 2022)
• Bucha massacre (Mar 31, 2022)

The daily killing of civilians, the torture, disappearances and other violations must stop. If the hostilities will not stop, then the absolute minimum required is to fully respect international humanitarian and human rights law and commit to protecting every civilian woman, man and child and those hors de combat. — Matilda Bogner commenting on findings Feb 24 - May 15 2022

• Ongoing shelling has led to homes being destroyed with many living in bomb shelters without access to basic services. (Jun 22, 2022)
• Russia’s War in Ukraine — The Devastation of Health and Human Rights (Jul 14, 2022)
• at its disposal is the scorched earth tactic, based on artillery superiority (Jul 17, 2022)
• Russian strikes on Zaporizhzhia kill at least 12, Ukrainian officials say (Oct 9, 2022) | Missile strikes on Zaporizhzhia leaves at least 12 dead, dozens injured (Oct 9, 2022; 2m:27s youtube)
• Dozens of Russian missiles hit multiple Ukrainian cities (Oct 10, 2022)

^{↑ Image source: Russian Missile Blitz Signals Escalation (Oct 10, 2022)}
• Damaged cultural sites in Ukraine verified by UNESCO
(anyway, reports continue on)

We're not just talking some skirmishes between combatants out Donbas way. The kind of madness here calls for guarantees, more than just he-said-she-said. I can see why Ukraine sought NATO membership, like Finland and Sweden since did.

Commitments to questionable future predictions aren't that easy to come by here, especially not in the case of handing over self-power. Loss of any trust there may have been doesn't help, either.

Diplomacy difficult, even if welcomed. :/ The destruction bombing onslaught shams is what there is to deal with.

If you want to just lay down and let them do whatever they like because you're so powerless, that's your bag, don't expect everyone else to be so weakly compliant. — Isaac

Spoken like a Ukrainian fighter? ;)

Another aspect of the situation and thread could be a purely military strategic tactical discussion. Might not have enough (real) information, would have to make assumptions along the way.

Frustration with Ukraine war spills out on Russian state TV (Oct 3, 2022)

Critique of Putin, use of the word "war", and speaking of leaving Ukrainian land is punishable or dangerous, though. No can do.

Belarus's Lukashenko warns Ukraine, deploys troops with Russia (Oct 10, 2022)

Military analysts saw this coming I think. Putin made a phone call or two, and Lukashenko sees the boogeyman to the south. Does it say something about the situation? (Is Putin in need of help, cannon fodder, distraction, getting scared, or something?)

What might happen if Belarus declares war with Ukraine?

You get that from a summary? — Isaac

Well, no, lots have been posted already.

all seeing this like we're choosing wallpaper — Isaac

But there are no neat solutions at the moment. :/ And so, comments keep going in circles. (Not that the world will listen to us anyway.) Commitments to questionable future predictions aren't that easy to come by here, especially not in the case of handing over self-power. Loss of any trust there may have been doesn't help, either. The attackers want to assimilate, the defenders want them to leave. Maybe China could put pressure on the attackers? Worth a shot for someone to promote? Hmm don't really see that happening, at least not in a way that really matters.

The only problem with Russia is the nukes but should we really worry about that when it's time to kick ass? :fire: — Baden

Sure hope it won't come to that. Kelsey Piper is pessimistic, in the long term anyway:

How to stop rolling the dice on the destruction of human civilization (Sep 22, 2022)

Meanwhile in Moscow ...

(crazies are everywhere)

Russia's Ukraine Offensive 'Absolutely Senseless': Ex-Military Leader (Newsweek; Oct 9, 2022)

I notice the implicit admission of Russian insurgency, an organized, controlled staging area, in Donbas. I guess it's no secret. Does undermine some Kremlin statements, though; the pretense that it's all uninfluenced natives by themselves wanting to look to Russia. I guess that's not new, either. Sorry if I repeated.

, well, now you have the two statements side by side, with the party that wants to take over being the worse of the two (which matters). Perhaps more importantly is the trajectory, the moves, the apparent intents, willing commitments, that stuff. Informative indicators.

Would this be a good time for Moldova to "covertly" take bac...over Transnistria, with the help of unnamed external parties? :D
Or perhaps bounce Russia from Transnistria, all sort of "unofficially" of course? *sshhh*
Could have an "election" guaranteed to have Transnistria join Moldova or Ukraine?
After all, there are nuclear threats on the horizon, and they're close with Romania, right?

I’m interested in finding out what I can do to stop the war — Xtrix

Very little it seems. :/

, citing AI's Ukraine report here makes a comparison with their Russia-report pertinent (corroborated by HRW's report by the way).

The Covid-19 pandemic continued to exacerbate the dire state of healthcare services. The rights to freedom of expression, association and peaceful assembly were routinely violated. Public assemblies organized by the political opposition were almost completely prohibited. Legislation on “foreign agents” and “undesirable organizations”, together with prosecutions on trumped-up charges and other forms of pressure, were widely used to suppress dissent. Threats and attacks against journalists, human rights defenders and other activists were perpetrated with impunity. Persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses intensified. Torture and other ill-treatment in places of detention remained endemic and prosecutions of perpetrators rare. Enforced disappearances were reported in Chechnya. The authorities failed to address domestic violence. LGBTI people continued to face discrimination. Arbitrary deportations of refugees and asylum seekers persisted. — AI: Russian Federation 2021

Joining the EU comes with some prerequisites that Ukraine would be subject to. Seeking membership is indicative of intent to improve in areas deemed to fall short, and sufficient transparency for others to evaluate. Conversely, there are indicators that Putin's Russia has been going in the opposite direction (maybe gay rights are the most visible, don't know). And they've been lashing out at (or been paranoid of) "The West" for a bit, while calling for nationalism and such. ^{(Nov 28, 2007, Feb 8, 2008, Sep 20, 2013, Feb 11, 2021, Mar 3, 2022, Mar 16, 2022, Jun 10, 2022)} It's not a contest, yet here Ukraine "wins" over Putin's Russia.

the destroyed/damaged/captured tanks — ssu

There have been other reports.

Haven't read of any booby traps. Maybe the Russians will add that to their arsenal, however wasteful it seems. :)

Russian strikes on Zaporizhzhia kill at least 12, Ukrainian officials say (Oct 9, 2022)

That kid there was/is scheduled to speak Russian only, by the way:



Not the first missile attack in the past week or so.
(Isn't this supposed to be a region that voted to join Russia anyway?)
Not seeing much genuinity or reconciliation here.

Primary casualties/losses include:

• Ukrainian non/combatants
• Ukrainian freedom due to invasion
• Ukrainian infrastructure, land/homes
• in occupied areas, Ukrainian culture self-determination freedom
• Russian combatants/invaders
• trust in Putin and team (or Russians in general especially by Ukrainians)
• some measure of international stability
• incentives to rely on or trade with Russia

:/
Solutions seem elusive.
Least common denominator as it were?

Overall advances & retreats Feb 24 - Oct 2 (not in detail)

Arctic soldiers relocated to the Kherson farms:

Russia’s Reindeer Brigade Is Fighting For Its Survival In Southern Ukraine (Forbes; Oct 7, 2022)
^{(alternatively via msn)}

No one's marching on Moscow, so that gives a bit of freedom. Armed authorities in Moscow are for something else.^{(2019, 2020, 2021, 2022)}

As an aside, neo-Stalinism came up elsewhere. Not just Russia, and has parallels elsewhere. Seems to be creeping out. :/

On a cynical note:

“The organizing principle of any society, Mr. Garrison, is for war.”
^{— Mr X in JFK (1991), wikiquote, youtube, imdb}

… with which I tend to disagree, from experience, though it can be an organizing principle at times.

if Russian (or anti-NATO) propaganda states that NATO expansion at the expense of Russian sphere of influence is an issue, then also Sweden and Finland entering NATO is an issue for Russian (or anti-NATO) propaganda — neomac

And, vice versa, if Russia was to take over Ukraine (the anti-NATO thing), then Russia equally becomes an issue for Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia (and, by extension, Europe). The nuclear rattling making it more so.

This would then suggest a neutral Ukraine. Un/acceptable? Ask the Ukrainians (first and foremost).

The Scandinavian countries have been part of mutual defense agreements for over a decade, so what exactly do you believe has changed that would make this so significant? — Tzeentch

If you're referring to the Scandinavian defence union, then not really.

Do you refer to them being EU members or what? — ssu

I was wondering, too.

It took Putin's moves for Denmark, Norway, and Sweden to come together in Aug 2022 (and Sweden to partially abandon their traditional neutrality).

Apart from the usual competitiveness, the Nordics/Scandinavia have been/are fairly close - borders, culturally, neighborly, whatever - aligning defense measures closer was a result of Putin looming on the horizon.

Another smoking accident has happened, this time on the Kerch bridge. — Paine

They pulled the "terrorist" card out. :D Not surprising I guess, though a bit of pretense goes into that.

in favour of negotiations — Isaac

That'd be great.

talks, diplomacy, more transparency, more bona fides signs

I doubt negotiations would be accompanied by a cease-fire, though. Doing so would give whatever parties room to replenish, settle, impose, prepare, etc, instead of bona fides peace. We've seen/heard plenty bullshit already. Diplomacy would likely have to be in parallel.

What the Ukrainians want has come up a few times - for the invaders to quit the bombing killing ruinage and leave. What Putin wants isn't quite clear - a demilitarized zone has been mentioned, shams, removal of Ukrainian culture and self-determination have been observed, down to elementary school (in some ways by the same playbook as the "Uyghur [cultural] genocide").

Would a neutral Ukraine be acceptable? As it stands, I'm guessing not acceptable to Putin. Otherwise I'm guessing yes.

^{• On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians (Vladimir Putin; Jul 12, 2021)
• Moscow's ethno-cultural war (Vladimir Rozanskij; Apr 12, 2022)
• Putin Aims to Triumph in Battle for ‘Cultural Supremacy’ (Bloomberg; Sep 6, 2022)
• Putin Is Trying to Turn Ukraine Into a Culture War (Lionel Beehner, Thomas Sherlock; Sep 9, 2022)}

Misc recent briefs ...

^{• Zelenskyy on 'impossible' talks with Putin (Oct 4, 2022)
• Ukraine regains control over Russian occupied areas (Oct 7, 2022)}

Putin's moves already prove why Ukraine wanted to join NATO - limiting free Kremlin movement/action.
EU relations/membership is another matter (though subject to Putin's rhetoric just the same).

Finding (ad hoc) fault at everyone is easy enough, and is a distraction, a diversion.

A self-determining Ukraine wasn't in Putin's cards.

Standard procedures are underway ... Sep 13, 2022; Sep 14, 2022

, so this move?

so, your proposed "solution" to your question is to cease the foreign aid to Ukraine and see what happens

As an aside, related to the so-called de-Nazification thing:
Ukraine crisis: 'Thousands of Russians' fighting in east
Reported Aug 28, 2014, a few months after the Crimea grab. Putinian insurgency.

Now there's a...mixed crowd of some 20,000 fighters (allegedly, I'm guessing less):
International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine
That's gotta' be...something to deal with.

Anyway, if, for a moment, we disregard self-governance/sovereignty, then it seems most/everyone's good with a neutral Ukraine. Actually no, Putin and Peskov have mentioned demilitarized. At what point can the Ukrainians feel safe, retain (at least non-military) self-governance/sovereignty, pursue international affiliations, get on with life? At the moment, with what's come out and happened, I don't see the Putinian cosa nostra holding back in a way that matters, no bona fides signs for that matter.

Just in ...

It's all doom and gloom on Russian state TV right now
But criticism of Vladimir Putin remains absolutely off limits — Francis Scarr · Oct 6, 2022

^{Kremlin Spokesman Says No Mobilization Despite Ukrainian Counteroffensive Success (Sep 13, 2022)
Putin mobilizes 300,000 troops for war in Ukraine and warns he’s not bluffing with nuclear threat (Sep 21, 2022)}

This is relevant because if ceding territory to Russia ends the war and if there's no good reason to think that doing so will create a major loss in welfare, then we ought to support such a solution, even if the Ukrainians themselves don't. — Isaac

so, your proposed "solution" to your question is to cease the foreign aid to Ukraine and see what happens

Evidently, the Ukrainians aren't giving away self-governance and sovereignty, and have had some successes in repelling the invaders. Their choice, as is their foreign affiliations. Staking a lot of people and future on such a reason (unjustified at the moment), speaking on their behalf, is a bit bold (perhaps presumptuous, especially if it's not your children that have to live with that decision), at least it seems that way to me. Think you can squeeze some guarantees out of Putin? Err...useless. :D Putin's (alleged) NATO fears would then become Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia's Putin fears; the nuclear threats and what-not don't help.

Peace would be achieved by following this ...

[To Ukrainians] go home — Putin · Feb 24, 2022

[To Russian combatants and such in Ukraine] Go home — Zelenskyy · Aug 30, 2022

;)

• The Ukraine War in data: Russia acknowledges nearly 6,000 war dead (the real figure is probably much higher) (Sep 22, 2022)
• Ukraine Situation Report: Advances Cripple Russian Efforts To Replenish Forces (Oct 5, 2022)

Why not just go ahead and do a side-by-side comparison of freedom?

• Media freedom in Russia (Wikipedia)
• Freedom of the press in Ukraine (Wikipedia)

The latter has a comparison table that includes a few other countries: Press freedom scores as perceived by Freedom House

A more detailed analysis would include the (supposed) rationale in the various cases.
In the same round, an apparent/expected trajectory might be informative, moves and trends and deterioration/improvement and such. Isn't that one of the things that matters? Where things are going?
Hand-picking a couple of select cases isn't really the best way to go about it.

• Press freedom index in Russia from 2013 to 2022 (Statista)
• Press freedom index in Ukraine from 2021 to 2021 (Statista)
• Press freedom in Europe - statistics & facts (Statista)
• 5 charts on views of press freedom around the world (Pew Research Center · May 1, 2020), some care less/more than others
• World Trends in Freedom of Expression and Media Development: Global Report 2021/2022 (UNESCO)
• Infographic: Where is press freedom restricted? (Al Jazeera · May 3, 2022)
• RSF’s 2022 World Press Freedom Index : a new era of polarisation [EN/RU] (ReliefWeb (UN/OCHA) · May 3, 2022)
• Press Freedom Index (Wikipedia)

Russia doesn't really come through better than Ukraine.

Looked a bit odd to me; seems to check out though...

• Newsweek (Sep 26, 2022): Mobilized Russians Asking How to 'Surrender' Through Hotline: Official

• Business Insider (Sep 27, 2022): Russians are calling up the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense asking how to surrender, Ukraine says

• New York Post (Oct 5, 2022): Thousands of Russian soldiers calling ‘I Want To Live’ surrender hotline: Ukraine

1000s?

Originally opened around May 21, 2022...

I guess, why not?

• Al Jazeera (Jul 11, 2022): Putin expands fast-track Russian citizenship to all of Ukraine

... Communism =/= socialism... — 180 Proof

You beat me to it. :)

, what do you think would happen then? Rule of whatever group managed to round up most members anyway?

(as mentioned earlier, I'm not playing the game of resetting the 300-something-pages thread back to square one, oddly forgetting comments, speeches, quotes, statements, actions, history, whatever)

, so, your proposed "solution" to your question is to cease the foreign aid to Ukraine and see what happens. Or did I misread?

^{(I suppose this might be where those quotes of old have lessons to teach?)}

that's up to them — Isaac

Sure, as are their foreign affiliations other than Putin's Russia.

If you're not interested in a conversation, just say so. — Tzeentch

Did converse, like here, here. :shrug: (doesn't mean just running with your story and call it a day, this ↑ dismissal ain't it, responding "unknown" is fine too)

But speaking of western support for the war in Ukraine.

Would the West still be supporting the war in Ukraine under say, a Republican US president and a right-leaning (read, anti-EU) Europe? — Tzeentch

Who knows, but (again) ...

It sure ain't just some elites in Washington and Brussels.

Say, would ...

talks, diplomacy, more transparency, more bona fides signs

... be worthwhile?

The question is about which strategy is most likely to quickly reduce the scale of war crimes. — Isaac

If only we could tell. :/

The Ukrainians want the invaders to quit the bombing killing ruinage and leave. They're apparently not just going to give up. They're looking to affiliations other than Putin's Russia; their choice to make.

What does Putin want...? To de-NATO and de-Nazify...? Hard to tell exactly, though statements speeches history whatever suggest broader ambitions. Consequences over some time, not really easier to tell.

^{(Plato, Tacitus, Burke, Mill, Niemöller, Wiesel had some comments, by the way)}

One could at least hope for talks, diplomacy, more transparency, more bona fides signs, even cease-fire, etc, it just seems strained at the moment. :/ How to end warring?

In other news, max seddon reports ...

my country — Tzeentch

India?

an impression — Tzeentch

Hm "get out more"? It sure ain't just some elites in Washington and Brussels.

the Russians have taken the approach — Tzeentch

Putin took "the approach" of invasion nuclear-threats bombing killing ruinage land-grabbing + conscription.

Western backing of Ukraine is hanging by a thread. The only parties that truly want it to continue are the Washington and Brussels elite. — Tzeentch

Huh? Support for Ukraine has been something, both "in spirit" / goodwill in general populations, and materially. Have you checked the reactions all over...? It's not just some elite highups in Washington and Brussels.

If Russia was to just take over, say, Donbas and Crimea, then their anti-NATO thing would still apply. Less so if they'd taken over Kyiv and captured/killed the government, I might add. As an aside, without a secured route to Crimea via Berdiansk/Melitopol, they'd still have a route via Kerch. There are whatever plans at work, possibly changing now and then, some possibly rushed or pushed out.

By the way, the referendums are only valid in some corner of the Russian system, despite the handshakes and (theatrical) fanfare by Putin in Moscow. They serve only to justify Russian incursions/conscriptions/whatever, to have a formality/declaration to stand on, to the Russian populace. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians continue on to take their land back.

(I'm guessing you're not serving in Kherson, . :smile:)