Comments

  • Ukraine Crisis
    I will welcome Russian tanks in my street if it avoids a nuclear war. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth a strategic nuclear escalation. Freedom be damned. I prefer to live and find the relative freedom possible even in the most autocratic regimes.

    Empires come and go. I'm not willing to die for one. I'm not willing to risk the lives of others for one.     — Benkei

    I can understand that pragmatic approach. Just have to remember that people have been (systematically) killed by the hands of empires that rolled in before. :( Quote spam ...


    variables:
    1. Putin doesn't use nukes, no escalation
    2. Putin uses nukes, no escalation
    3. Putin uses nukes, escalation     — Benkei

    4. Strike a deal, no escalation
    • no Ukraine NATO membership ✓ ← the main demand
    • ... (possibly UN peacekeepers) ...
    • Russia to clean up or pay for what they ruined (← incidentally, negative return on destructive investment)

    Is that sort of thing off the table already?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The big question is, are Russians Europeans? — FreeEmotion

    Why would that be a big question? :brow: It's not.

    ↪Benkei
    , none, except maybe add a bit more context to
    ↪baker
    's grievances. (Is "Petty Petkov" a good nickname?)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Syrian and Ukrainian refugees...

    These[Ukrainians] are not the refugees we are used to...[Syrians] these people are Europeans. These people are intelligent, they are educated people...[Ukrainians] This is not the refugee wave we have been used to, people we were not sure about their identity, people with unclear pasts, who could have been even terrorists...[Syrians] In other words, there is not a single European country now which is afraid of the current wave of refugees.[Ukrainians] — Bulgarian Prime Minister Kiril Petkov

    Disgusting. Petkov :down: :sad:.

    Not a whole lot sought refuge in Russia, by the way:

    Refugees of the Syrian civil war (Wikipedia)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Way back when, East Germans wanted to flee to West Germany, but weren't allowed to. West Germans didn't want to "flee" to East Germany, but were largely allowed to, as far as West Germany was concerned anyway.
    So, a sort of asymmetry or imbalance, if you will.
    With Gorbachev and the wall/curtain coming down, all that, there were concerts, busses of young people going to Russia for friendship (I know some personally), a sort of fresh optimism was going 'round, "enough with all the :vomit: posturing, let's party and be friends".

    If I were to have a vision for Russia, it might be a place where people wanted to go — no, not (necessarily) to escape Interpol. :) Say, with good accessible educational resources (for children, researchers), job and business opportunities, fair general safety and health support, reasonable freedom, increased trust, whatever, ... (came to mind while typing). But that seems different from Putin's vision for/of Russia, going by his actions at least. Authoritarianism, imposition, dreams of an empire, power, corruption, assassinations, ☢ posturing, stomping freedom, ... Not really a dream destination for a family.

    Someone should put together a Putin versus Gandhi game, maybe like a board game or something. :) However much I admire the staunch pacifism, I'm guessing Gandhi would be Putin's laughing stock. :fire:
    The Ukrainians aren't really pacifists (when invaded) as far as I can tell, despite faced by a heavy-duty ☢ ☣ :death: (and other arms) force.

    Anyway, I can't tell if Zelenskyy has a vision for Ukraine in the sense above. Could Ukraine become a place where people wanted to go? If Putin and his are caught in a geo-political-cultural thing, then what of the Ukrainians? They don't seem inclined to Gandhian pacifism, nor "Putinism", though many are Russian-speakers.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Was he just about to say "We're going to impose a New World Order", but slightly changed the phrasing? — Apollodorus

    Why don't you tell? It's your theory.

    In any case, maybe it isn't Russia who's behind the NWO agenda, after all .... — Apollodorus

    Tell what "the NWO agenda" is exactly.

    Actually, spamming this (already-spammed) thread might be too spammy. Though, I suppose, if you have something material, then do tell (in some thread).
  • Ukraine Crisis
    their NWO agenda — Apollodorus

    "New World Order"? If so, ye' can't be serious.

    Couple chucklesome quotes...

    Who do you think the establishment is? It's just guys like me. Their desks are bigger, but their jobs aren't. They don't conspire, they buy boats. — Quentin (Cube (1997))
    This may be hard for you to understand, but there is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It, it's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. Can you grasp that? — Worth (Cube (1997))
  • John Hick's Pluralism
    Well, W L Craig has ditched most of them (by far): How Can Jesus Be the Only Way? (Nov 19, 2019; 5m:19s)

    • Religious Disagreement (IEP)
    • Religious Diversity (Pluralism) (SEP)
    • Philosophical Implications of Religious Pluralism (Vibha Chaturvedi; 2016)

    It seems like figurative speech or text reading is necessary

    • pluralism (≈ disjunction) necessarily includes contradictions
    • perennialism (≈ conjunction) necessarily shrinks to all-but nothing

    I guess some sort of non-specific deism, or "spiritualism", or whatever, might work (technically) in some way, but you're not going to get all the elaborate religions under one roof like so.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Christoffer
    , I guess that put Voznesenks on the map, a town of some 34,050 mostly Russian-speakers.

    Battle of Voznesensk (Wikipedia)


    FYI, as of typing, Voznesenks' homepage takes me to a site in Japanese (sv1055·xserver·jp) entitled:
    鍵がないと気付いたらとるべき行動とは？ (What action should I take if I realize I don't have the key?)
    “I lost my key ... what should I do ...” It is common to lose a key in everyday life.
    I was frustrated and panicked.
    First of all, it is important to take a deep breath.
    [...]
    :)
    Might be a rip off some other random sites.
    Apparently, voznesensk·org is run by GMO Internet in Tokyo.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Saw an interview where Putin said the Soviet collapse was his defining moment. The interview took place at a school I think, and a young pupil asked him about the most important thing that happened.

    ... → KGB → Soviet collapse → Yeltsin → cozying up with oligarchs → ousting some oligarchs → ...

    Allan Little muses:

    Ukraine war: Putin has redrawn the world - but not the way he wanted (Mar 18, 2022)

    Ukraine's defenders are fighting for Helsinki. Putin has sent his troops in to impose a modern version of Yalta - which would kill off Ukraine's independence and leave it under Russian domination. — paraphrasing Timothy Garton Ash
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The other week, Zelensky gave a pep talk and he winked. He winked.
    This is what we've come down to. Presidents in war-torn countries winking to their people in support.     — baker

    Hmm... I thought he'd been visiting hospitals or whatever, talking with UN/EU/US, making some efforts to talk with Putin, tweeting about a deepfake featuring him or something, ...
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪FreeEmotion
    , rt·com is run out of Moscow (you can call them at +7-4997500075, by the way).
    Not banned, not here at least.

    Over a thousand children died from completely preventable consequences of poverty just in the time since you posted that picture. — Isaac

    Do you think that makes bombing the Saltivka residential district, killing Romanchenko, right?
    Putin's disrespect, like a loose cannon, contributes to the worry of the nuclear scenario and to resentment of Putin, as well it should.
    Great, what we need is another disrespecting, authoritarian top-bully with ☢ ☣ :death: :fire: and a Москва imperial vision, almost leisurely kicking others around.
    (This was sort of a "meaningless" comment,
    ↪Benkei
    .)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Onion Guide To NATO

    (just in case anyone didn't know)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The West is censoring Russian media, banned outright RT on every medium, even their website on the "world wide web" ... yet the West isn't even under martial law? Why is the west so afraid of Russian state media? We let the BBC, and CBC and PBS to exist globally, why not little ol' RT? If the West supports Ukraine why the censorship of RT? — boethius

    Russia Today (International) - Breaking news, shows, podcasts ← This RT?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Seems unexpected to me.

    fq043txvz9gwup0f.png

    Russian soldiers appear to be dying in Ukraine at a remarkably high rate
    Casualties in the early weeks far exceed the tolls in other recent conflicts
    The Economist; Mar 17, 2022
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↑ A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries in which countries it would be socially unacceptable to say they don't want people of another race as neighbours (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013) — Isaac

    Revision 2:

    Heatmap of countries where people pick different races as people they don't want as neighbors (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013)

    Does that work? :D
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Nazi (and similar) creeps are a concern everywhere.
    Where things get worse is when they attain political power.
    In some places they hide more due to legislation, in other places not so much.

    • List of neo-Nazi organizations
    • Racism by country
    • List of white nationalist organizations
    • Geography of antisemitism

    mkk0v3rxw9a4kp73.jpg

    ↑ A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries (The Washington Post; May 15, 2013)

    That's not to say that "two wrongs make a right", though.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    NATO, EU, US, Russia, China, ..., what about the Ukrainians? They're the ones getting bombed, not NATO, EU, US, China, or Russia; rather, the bombing + invasion is on Russia's hands.
    Putin demanded they don't become a NATO member, which they've come to terms with (big sigh on their behalf goes here :smile:).
    If they want closer trade with, say, Hungary, Germany, Austria, then what of it? Why not? It's a way to prosper.
    Seems less likely that the Ukrainians are inclined to look to Russia now.
    Putin vetoed Donbas UN peacekeepers out like it was just up to him. He's also brought up appeal to morals (even if bullshitting), not quite unheard of.

    More "propaganda":

  • Ukraine Crisis
    Can you imagine if even a fraction of this - totally symbolic, completely useless - self-satisfied wank was applied even for a moment to American crimes or infinitely greater magnitute? — StreetlightX

    Americans? They instead get impeached over blowjobs. :D
  • Ukraine Crisis
    We [...] unity. — Vladimir Putin

    :vomit:

    Demands ✓
    Responses ✓
    Meet ?
    Bombs :fire: ✓ ↻

    Were the demands always bullshit?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Some people are going for a trial thing ...

    • Statement calling for the creation of a Special Tribunal for the punishment of the crime of aggression against Ukraine
    • ICC prosecutor launches Ukraine war crimes investigation (AP)
    • Ukraine calls for Nuremberg-style tribunal to judge Vladimir Putin (Politico)
    • Why we need a new Nuremberg trial to make Putin pay (Daily Mail)
    • Putin’s use of military force is a crime of aggression (Financial Times)

    I'm guessing, at best, Putin will just have fewer viable travel destinations.
  • Rasmussen’s Paradox that Nothing Exists
    The hidden bit in the logic is that explanations are "another thing outside the thing". — apokrisis

    Yeah, so we actually have:

    1. anything must have some other explanation
    2. reality in total cannot have another explanation

    I'm not sure what could be self-explanatory here.
    General necessities are hard to come by; self-consistency might be a candidate, then again that just seems like us imposing so we can make sense of things, don't think there's any guarantee of that.
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    Do you really belief laws of nature and the basic stuff in it are clever enough to create themself? — EugeneW

    Create themselves? :brow:
    What does that have to do with anything anyway?

    If atheism were valid, atheists would not be able to open their mouths. They would have nothing to talk about. Atheism is in being a-theistic making them a-theists.
    [...]
    Anyhow, why should we listen to those who reject a God (a relatively simple addon) but then continue to believe in mermaids, unicorns etc.
    Atheism is a rejection of free-speech (primarily another element of the Left).     — Gregory A

    Seems the thread has veered off the opening post, and become a gallery for bloviating the usual old apologist arguments.
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    For most practical purposes, i.e. actual:

    a·the·ism (noun)
    • disregard/dismissal of what theists have failed to prove in the first place
    • absence of theism or doubt/disbelief therein, hence the leading 'a'

    Terms like antitheism, atheism, igtheism, misotheism, etc, are derived from theism, and theism can mean a few things. Diverse, fantastic, narrated (pseudo-historicized) characters, that supposedly intervene/participate/meddle in human affairs, and adherents go by whatever commands/rules, rituals, fate designations, ... Taking those stories to be literal history converges on fundamentalism. Does anyone seriously believe that a preacher in Middle Eastern antiquity supernaturally fed 5000-9000 people (in 2 rounds) with a handful of food...?
  • The Invalidity of Atheism
    It would seem the same applies to, say, anyone that disregards/dismisses ancient astronaut theories. :D

    Good grief.

    Suggested title of new post: "The Invalidity of A-Ancient-Astronautism"
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Cyber-activists/criminals hit war-activists/criminals ...

    Anonymous declared a ‘cyber war’ against Russia. Here are the results (Mar 16, 2022)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Mar 16, 2022:

    • Deepfake Zelenskyy surrender video is the 'first intentionally used' in Ukraine war
    • Meta takes down deepfake of Ukraine’s President Zelensky surrendering
    • Russian War Report: Hacked news program and deepfake video spread false Zelenskyy claims ← and Zelenskyy responds
    • Deepfake video of Zelenskyy could be 'tip of the iceberg' in info war, experts warn

    ↑ Busted.

    What should be noted, and is nearly not mentioned, is the Ukrainian side. Although they have made counterattacks, these have been small. And naturally they too have had serious losses. What is really lacking is that Ukraine would make larger counterattacks and surround larger Russian units and [...] — ssu

    Yeah, and Russian free rein in the Ukrainian sky, eyes and bombers, makes it difficult.

    ↪Book273
    , what you don't know can still kill you. But never-you-mind.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    If Putin doesn't start talking soon, then we might as well admit it: Putin just started bombing the $#!† out of another country and handed over a bunch of not-quite-genuine demands, with the world watching. :D


  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    , again,

    Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

    And it now seems off the table anyway — Putin's demand met. ✓ No Ukraine NATO membership.

    ↪boethius
    , the Nazi thing wasn't in Putin's demands (other than used as a pretext/excuse perhaps). Either way, UN peacekeepers ain't up to him to decide, as he apparently thinks, only to go in with his bombs blazing instead.

    By intensity of hatred, nations create in themselves the characters they imagine in their enemies. Hence it is that all passionate conflicts result in the interchange of characteristics. — George William Russell
    Don't become what you hate. — Akiroq Brost

    Concessions given. Time for Putin to stand down, or at least chill out and head to the talking table? One could hope.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Russians have now launched nearly 810 missiles against Ukraine -- almost half have been fired from within Ukraine using mobile platforms. The rest have been fired from Russia, Belarus, and a small number from the Black Sea. This is up from an estimate of 775 missiles offered by the official Thursday. — Ukraine using drones to 'great effect' on Russian forces: Pentagon updates (ABC News • Mar 11, 2022)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    , as the case may be, you don't get to decide if someone invades you or not, they do, and, as the case may be, you don't get to decide if they have a bunch of TOS-1s Su-34s ☢s or not, they do.
    You might get to decide whether to do something or not.
    An excellent opportunity for Machiavellian evil capitalists, wouldn't you say?
    I suppose you might scrap it all and hope for the best.
    Or, do you think everyone agrees to scrap it all? ☮
  • Coronavirus
    Analysis: Future infectious diseases: Recent history shows we can never again be complacent about pathogens (Mar 2, 2022)

    Either learn better to avoid, or learn to suffer better?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    IMF managing director expects "deep recession" in Russia (Mar 13, 2022)

    That effective?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Yep, and Elvis is still alive too apparently — Isaac

    Try throwing rocks and swear words at ... Defense industry of Russia (Wikipedia), Russia and weapons of mass destruction (Wikipedia), Infographic: Which countries buy the most Russian weapons? (Al Jazeera; Mar 9, 2022), Rosoboronexport (has a number of Putin quotes towards the bottom by the way), ... :D The invader has taken an initiative. Words/rocks ... no difference.

    Europe and the US are aiding Ukraine alright — Olivier5

    Right, Ukraine seems to have overwhelming support faced with the invasion, as well they should (nations, organizations, smaller groups), almost from day 1. Russia doesn't, as well they shouldn't.

    Quote spam ...
    The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. — Plato (-429 — -347)
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. — sometimes attributed to Edmund Burke (1729 — 1797)
    Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. — John Stuart Mill (1806 — 1873)
    Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. — Elie Wiesel (1928 — 2016)

    The Russians have free rein in Ukrainian airspace to monitor and bomb. (Including bomb civilian areas; must be kind of "boring" for the pilots?) Maybe that's all the advantage they need.

    I don't trust the Western narrative and won't unless it's corroborated by different sources and that generally takes a few months to clear up, considering how often we've been lied to. If I see Russians firing at a flat, then I'm wondering whether they were fired upon from that position and we've just not been shown that. I have no way of knowing but I do know we get maybe 5% of what's actually going on. — Benkei

    At least Putin's demands don't seem like fake news. No NATO membership for Ukraine, ... It's something to take to the talking table.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    (dupe, see subsequent comment)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/03/exclusive-kremlin-putin-russia-ukraine-war-memo-tucker-carlson-fox/ — Wayfarer

    Just saw this, also on Mother Jones:

    Report: Putin Threatened to Arrest Google Exec Over Pro-Democracy App (Mar 12, 2022)

    It's a trend.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    ↪Isaac
    :

    Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.

    Invaders set the tempo. They do as they please, or they're stopped. Maybe you hope they'll stop by themselves, just a bit of collateral damage?

    let's have a fucking World War — Isaac

    No, let's not. (You can stop drooling now. :smile:)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Nor Zelenskky. — FreeEmotion

    According to rumors on the street, a couple Ukrainian mayors have already been napped and replaced by Russian puppets. If not for numerous onlookers and potential outrage/martyrdom, I'm guessing Zelenskyy would have been in constant mortal danger. He might still be, though, to some extent; sure ain't far-fetched.

    On another note, if China gets involved by aiding Russia, then why not Europe, NATO, ...? Otherwise, it seems like another descent into Rule of the bully. Ukraine still isn't a member of NATO, like Putin demands.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Slippery slopes?
    Andreas Georgiou writes: Ukraine Invasion: A Dress Rehearsal for More of the Same Around the Globe
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Joining NATO to be taken as a separate discussion and agreement. — FreeEmotion

    It seems to violate Putin's vision (not his eyes) and likely the same for some old-school Russians. But, hey, if they're genuinely scared of NATO, then OK, a concession, to reach a more stable (perhaps even prosperous) situation...?

    An amendment? (peacekeepers = :up:)

    • Russia ends its military presence in Ukraine, including Ukrainian airspace
    • Ukraine cease military action against Russians in Ukraine
    • the Ukrainian constitution grants the Russian parliament veto right regarding Ukraine becoming a NATO member
    • Ukraine does not invade Russia or let other nations invade Russia via Ukraine
    • Ukraine agrees to UN peacekeepers
    • if Russia insists on an investigation into bio-facilities in Ukraine, then the same is to take place in Russia (perhaps under WHO/UN supervision)
    • Russia recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign state
    • Russia rebuilds (or pays for rebuilding) what they ruined in Ukraine, Russia returns (or pays for) what they took from Ukrainians

    The victims of the invasion/bombings are still the Ukrainians on the ground, not Putin or his Kremlin generals, or other Muscovites.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    So, going by Reuters, the deal the Kremlin offers is something like ...

    • Russia halts military operations in Ukraine
    • Ukraine cease military action against Russians in Ukraine
    • Ukraine change its constitution to enshrine neutrality
    • Ukraine acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory
    • Ukraine recognize the separatist republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states

    How about this instead?

    • Russia ends their military presence in Ukraine
    • Ukraine grants the Russian parliament veto right on Ukraine becoming a NATO member
    • Ukraine does not invade Russia or let other nations invade Russia via Ukraine
    • Russia recognizes Ukraine as an independent state
    • Russia rebuilds (or pays for rebuilding) what they ruined in Ukraine
    • Russia returns (or pays for) what they took from Ukrainians

    Think that'll fly? :) Not likely.
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