Comments

  • Ukraine Crisis
    , apparently so; well, the Ukrainians agreed to remove whatever about Crimea from the deal, i.e. no mention thereof.
    Seemed like they focussed more on peace guarantees (future).
    I think they also differentiate Donbas becoming part of Russia and an entirely independent Donbas.
  • What would you order for your last meal?
    Can't decide between a tasty delicious portable nuclear bomb with a dead man's switch, and a large bottle of Jack Daniel's No 7 (plus ice cubes). :D
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The New York Times got hold of some documents, did some interviews ...

    Ukraine-Russia Peace Is as Elusive as Ever. But in 2022 They Were Talking.
    — Anton Troianovski, Adam Entous, Michael Schwirtz, Andrew E Kramer, Julian E Barnes, Maria Varenikova, Gray Beltran, Rumsey Taylor · New York Times · Jun 15, 2024
    The sticking points that kept Russia and Ukraine apart
    — Anton Troianovski, Michael Schwirtz · New York Times via Japan Times · Jun 16, 2024

    NYT publishes alleged draft of failed Russia-Ukraine peace deal (note, this is Russian state media)
    — RT · Jun 15, 2024
    From security guarantees to territorial control, these differences led to failure of Ukraine-Russia peace talks
    — Firstpost · Jun 16, 2024

    Someone summarized ...

    • Russia withdrew previous objections to Ukraine's full membership of EU
    • Ukraine proposed never to join NATO
    • Russia wanted Ukraine to make Russian an official language
    • Russia wanted Ukraine and all other signatories of treaties to lift 2014+ sanctions and publicly call on others to follow suit
    • Ukraine was to give up Donbas and recognize Crimea as part of Russia
    • Ukraine did not recognize Russian sovereignty over occupied territory (independence being a separate topic)
    • Russia's ceasefire proposal stated that Ukraine withdraw all troops
    • Ukraine wanted allies to be bound by a treaty to intervene if attacked again
    • For Ukrainians, binding security guarantees were the basis of a potential peace agreement signed by several countries
    • The Kremlin required Russia to be among guarantor states, all of who must approve response in case of attack on Ukraine
    • Ukraine to be permanently neutral (with limited militarization)

    More recently ...

    Ukraine Peace Summit: Putin demands more Ukrainian land to end war; Kyiv rejects 'ultimatum'
    — WION · Jun 15, 2024 · 5m:26s

    Ukraine conference joint communiqué: full text
    — Thomas Escritt · Reuters · Jun 15, 2024
    80 Countries Back Ukraine's 'Territorial Integrity' At Swiss Peace Summit
    — RFE/RL · Jun 16, 2024
    Ukraine summit strives for consensus, way forward uncertain
    — Dave Graham, Sabine Siebold, Steve Holland, Thomas Escritt, Dan Peleschuk, Alvise Armellini, Matthias Williams, Mark Potter, Hugh Lawson · Reuters · Jun 16, 2024
    Swiss summit backs Ukraine’s ‘territorial integrity’, calls for peace talks with Russia
    — France 24 · Jun 16, 2024 · 6m:59s

    Not really much new.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Can be generalized some while remaining relevant:

    I believe that a state favouring one religion above others is inherently discriminatory and should progress into an actual democracy instead of the (Apartheid) ________ state it is now. The idea of a ("jewish") ________ state that favours (Jews as Jews) ________ is obviously wrong to anyone with a modicum of knowledge about human and civil rights.Benkei

    There are some in the region (including an old foe of theirs). :/


    Albanese is apparently a controversial figure. According to UN Watch ...

    Exposed: Francesca Albanese’s Global Influence Network Targeting Israel (— UN Watch · Jun 11, 2024)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    (Did you mean "to Russia by" instead of "to Ukraine by"?)

    strives to maximize the damage to Ukraine by drip feeding weapons (... just enough to prop it up at an incredible high cost to Ukraine)boethius

    Your "drip feed" theory presumes cohesive organized "feeders" with that (hidden) agenda.
    Haven't really heard anyone pushing/discussing that (supposed) agenda, more like the usual debates quarrels dis/agreements bureaucracy.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    More of the alternate world thing ...

    Matviyenko interviewed by Skabeyeva posted by Natalka on Jun 8, 2024 and Gerashchenko on Jun 10, 2024:

    Well, we didn't do anything bad to anyone. We didn't attack anyone.Valentina Matviyenko · Jun 2024

    I suppose they could head south and take a look.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Edel writes:

    Why Russia Is Happy at War
    — Anastasia Edel · The Atlantic · Jun 9, 2024

    Incidentally reminded me of some earlier comments, e.g.:

    The fact is that Russia simply isn't a normal country that would try to have good relations with it's neighbors. It seeks the role it had when it was an empire/Superpower, makes huge gambles and takes extreme risks. It's extremely reckless. There simply are no benefits in trying to appease Putin.ssu
    There should be another narrative than the imperialist one when it comes to what Russia is. This narrative creates the reality were Russia sees necessary to intervene and dominate it's near abroad. First and foremost, the collapse of the Soviet Union, is seen as a mistake. An unfortunate accident. Russia is seen to be an multi-ethnic Empire and therefore it should obviously control what has been part of the Empire. And this makes everybody so nervous about Russia. It's not acting as a normal country. Yet the imperialist narrative dominates official Russia. It is fomented with the huge conspiracy that the West is against Russia, hence to defend itself, it has to attack.ssu
    For Russia to become a normal country and shed it's bellicose aggressive behaviour a humiliating defeat could do it. The Soviet Union came so splendidly and peacefully apart that people like Vladimir Putin understood it as a mistake, something you can and have to fix.ssu
    But I'm hopeful that Russia can shed it's fascist tendencies and perhaps become a normal democracy someday. But I acknowledge it will be difficult. Yet Spain and Portugal aren't anymore fascist.ssu
  • How would you respond to the trolley problem?
    Doing nothing is still a decision in the scenario.
    Besides, it's easy enough to come up with a scenario where doing nothing would result in more deaths than, say, two other options.
    Say, pulling lever left results in x deaths, pulling lever right results in y deaths, doing nothing results in x+y deaths.
    Inaction is just one aspect of the conundrum, it's not so much about rejecting personal responsibility, more about pitching ethics against psychology, I think, or something, where there may not be a definitive answer.
    Another (minor) aspect could be: swift decision-making.
    Given no time to think it over, what would be the most likely decision?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Something about the Jan 6 2021 attack I'm wondering about.
    What could possibly happen after the storming of the buildings?
    It wasn't a swift hit-and-run type attack.

    Would the mob occupy them?
    I don't think that could block Congress from moving ahead later, or stop much of anything really.

    Hold hostages?
    From memory, most of those who worked there left or got out before the attackers took over, e.g. Pence was (predictably) ushered away by the Secret Service; there wasn't anyone stopping people from leaving (or attacking them) that I recall.

    Maybe they expected that a fair portion of the US population would join in...?
    Including in law enforcement and military?
    That's the only way they could succeed as far as I can tell, however remote that seems.

    I suppose the attack could just give an impression of a weaker, fragile state of the US government, which might be enough for some.

    Attacking those buildings doesn't really come through as much of a coup d'état attempt by itself, but I might definitely be missing something.
    More like a party gone haywire, though I'm sure there were some serious extremists and dedicated instigators in the mob; what about domestic terrorists or Iranian agents?
    Might be more interesting to back-track what participants/organizers did, whether they got together beforehand, where (or from who) their ideas originated or otherwise were reinforced, what their motivations were, ...
    I'm thinking it wasn't just the Clown that put ideas in their heads, but I'm speculating.
    Further motive (who might benefit in some way), means, opportunity (nudging rioters — and shamans), ...
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Someone's
    extremelyboethius
    full of ‹redacted›. You've been given enough evidence already, yet keep going all "Putin's Russia is :up:" whether implicitly or explicitly. :down: At least you're right that the two situations aren't quite the same.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    More samples of the ☢ rattling, in concert, corroborated by whatever sources, seemingly suggesting the circle is afraid of something:

    Russian Ministry (May 6, 2024) threatens the UK
    Putin (May 29, 2024) threatens "the West"
    Ryabkov (Jun 3, 2024) threatens the US
    Sivkov (Jun 3, 2024) threatens Poland
    Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens Germany
    Lavrov (Jun 5, 2024) threatens French
    Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens "the West"
    The Kremlin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens (provokes) the US
    Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens "the West"
    Gurulyov (Jun 5, 2024) threatens the Netherlands
    Putin (Jun 6, 2024) threatens the UK

    I guess the response has always been: leave Ukraine be.

    Toth and Sweet opines:

    Russian spies, lies and sabotage are coming to America
    — Mark Toth, Jonathan Sweet · The Hill · Jun 8, 2024

    Well, the article aligns with:

    Russia’s Threat Puts Security at Forefront of European Elections (4m:35s interview)
    — Konrad Krasuski, Piotr Skolimowski, Natalia Ojewska · Bloomberg · Jun 4, 2024
  • A List of Intense Annoyances
    theiyr're
    they're their there

    that must of been quite something

    I'm better then you

    youre
    you're your

    whe're
    we're were where
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    Yet if they do have an ancestral homeland it is in Africa.BitconnectCarlos

    Go a bit further back and we're (likely) all Africans.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    A path to peace talks is to sideline the extremists and fanatics on whatever side, them'gotta go, and whatever crimes dealt with.
    Doesn't take a whole lot of zealots to sideline more accommodating moderates.
    Why the heck would Muslims and Jews be attacked on other continents over this anyway?
    "Righteous" attackers everywhere have a case (that can be found here in the thread), right?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    When people start listening to clowns, then we get a circus.

    Will refrain from linking to Antisocial Bullshit (or Patriots·Win or Gateway Pundit) further here...

    Trump supporters call for riots and violent retribution after verdict
    — Joseph Tanfani, Ned Parker, Peter Eisler · Reuters · May 31, 2024
    22 Experts Predict What the Trump Conviction Will Mean for 2024 and Beyond
    various · POLITICO · May 31, 2024
    MAGA faithful call for riots and lynchings after Trump’s guilty verdict
    — Io Dodds · The Independent · Jun 1, 2024
    US 'Civil War' Predicted on Russian State TV
    — Mandy Taheri · Newsweek · Jun 2, 2024
    Trump alludes to violence by supporters if he goes to jail - but says he’s fine with house arrest
    — Andrew Feinberg · The Independent · Jun 3, 2024

    Tracing backward, who/what stands to benefit from the division unrest ... parts?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , complementing your speculation, let me try some aspects of what's (been) going on (e.g. evidence in posts)

    • Russian losses in world war 2 aren't the first thing you hear about around the world (cf the Holocaust)
    • Russia didn't "win" the cold war (like "the West")
    • Russia hasn't comparatively seen marked development (cf Japan)
    • Russia/Moscow lost some control/influence internationally
    • Russia isn't really a top-tier economy on the world stage (like the US)
    • Russian Rubles aren't common in the international market/trade (like US$s, which came to Moscow)
    • Russian isn't commonly spoken internationally (like English, which instead invaded Moscow)
    • Russia hasn't been sort of inconspicuously "growing" (e.g. Ukraine and others going West instead)
    • Russia isn't really a top influence(r) and power for all to (respectfully) listen or turn to

    But

    • Russia is the largest country in the world (and powerful)
    • Russia can (does) produce impressive amounts of artillery
    • Russia does have lots of educated/smart people
    • Russia does have lots of resources, including some scientific/technological capacity
    • Russia does have the largest nuclear weapons arsenal around

    Frustrating for the present old-school autocratic Kremlin. Well, they can do something about that, one indignant way or another. Enemies identified, plans in motion. This stuff has (in part) set the stage for their (current) goings-and-doings.

    By the way
    • the Kremlin (circle) has a background in spycraft and up-scale manipulation
    • the Kremlin has anxiety about Russia breaking up into different independent nations
    the Kremlin has seized impressive domestic control
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Russia Moves to Expropriate Homes in Occupied Regions
    — Ann-Dorit Boy · DER SPIEGEL · May 7, 2024

    Centrally organized land grab, a contemporary Kremlin version of lebensraum, neo-imperialism.
    There's been some further reports of these efforts.
    (I suppose we can speculate that refugees may not have a home to return to, in the future, unless they buy it back from Moscow (and obtain Russian passports).)
    Whatever comes out of the Kremlin, that's part of what they're doing.
  • The Barber of Seville
    The barber paradox is also related to the Epimenides paradox ("damn Cretins") and the liar paradox.

    "You shall be careful with self-reference."

    A function cannot be its own argument, because the functional sign already contains the prototype of its own argument and it cannot contain itself.

    If, for example, we suppose that the function F(fx) could be its own argument, then there would be a proposition “F(F(fx))”, and in this the outer function F and the inner function F must have different meanings; for the inner has the form ϕ(fx), the outer the form ψ(ϕ(fx)). Common to both functions is only the letter “F”, which by itself signifies nothing.

    This is at once clear, if instead of “F(F(u))” we write “(∃ϕ) : F(ϕu) . ϕu = Fu”.

    Herewith Russell’s paradox vanishes.
    Wittgenstein

    I'm guessing these sorts of things show up elsewhere as well.
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    Some politainment:

    'MAGA communism' derided as 'deranged fringe movement' – but it's winning converts
    — Travis Gettys · Raw Story · May 24, 2024

    It's almost like those guys make an effort to choose so that you can rely on choosing differently. :D
    I guess their livelihoods are somewhat limited, comedic entertainment, run for office, ...
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , wait, that's (5,7)(9) propaganda in your book? No wonder you see propaganda and conspiracies everywhere. :grin: Especially against Putin. :chin:

    Try this (for a change): Entertain a thought experiment or hypothetical to think about what changes and what doesn't in the scenario. (Hence putting it out there as a question (that you instead call propaganda).) Common practice.

    FYI, here's a piece of lightweight propaganda, maybe you can tell the difference:
    US to blame for Iranian president’s death – Belarus (— RT · May 24, 2024)
  • The Barber of Seville
    Figaro shaved Bartolo, but not Rosina though she didn't shave herself, at least I don't think she did, but what do I know — no matter, in a universe where Figaro is hairless, no such Figaro-shaving is applicable in the first place. Unless shaving a fake beard counts.

    British barbers regularly cut their clients throats instead and dispose of their bodies in meat pies, to avoid this sort of difficulty.unenlightened

    Canadians append a verbal "Sorry". :D

    So, anyway, does the King of France shave himself or not? More importantly, have you stopped shaving your palms yet, well, have you?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Where are you even getting this from, following your own link:boethius

    It was an attempt to converge acceptability, not a recitation of an old proposal, but to revise bits, hypothesize, and derive whatever therefrom. :D

    You can post as much propaganda as you wantboethius

    Huh? Where do you see that? As mentioned, it was an attempt to revise an old proposal slightly towards more acceptability, and take it (onwards) from there. (Would you like me to reformulate, maybe in Klingon...?)

    Alert: Trump's GOP busted for embracing Putin's 'dictator plot': Comedian Klepper x Melber
    — Jordan Klepper, Ari Melber, Molly Jong-Fast · MSNBC · May 22, 2024 · 6m:57s
    People here in Washington, DC are just ignoring that, making people believe like Ukraine can win, Ukraine can't, Putin won't lose, Putin will not lose, he's not going to lose.Ron Johnson

    MAGA'ers and @boethius echoing the Kremlin circle — "We're invincible" — in words or spirit.
    Of course the invaders can be sent home (reportedly a large number already has + o / w). Not via those fatalists though.
    By the way, the Kremlin has kicked off another round of their nuclear rattling (rerunning exercises, threatening the UK, France, whoever), I wonder what they're afraid of.
  • The Barber of Seville
    The Barber of Seville shaves all the men of Seville apart from himself.Nemo2124

    Should have been:
    The Barber of Seville shaves those who don't shave themselves.
    Who shaves the Barber then?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    :D Because it's all deep fakes and hoaxes and conspiracies

    9c5qkotshams1dx6.jpg
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    the lies of Michael CohenNOS4A2

    What about the lies of the Clown in the first place?
  • Useful hints and tips
    As of typing, PlushForums is a bit skimpy on documenting supported formatting syntax.
    Most can be found (or reverse engineered) via the formatting options:

    lruzj19drb8ypfc8.png

    But not these:
    Lorem ipsum [sup]superscript[/sup]
    Lorem ipsum [sub]subscript[/sub]
    [list=1]
    [*] first item
    [*] second item
    [/list]
    
    They render like so:
    Lorem ipsum superscript
    Lorem ipsum subscript
    1. first item
    2. second item

    Some formatting constructs can be nested, others not.
    Some unicode characters can be used, others not.
    These may change over time.


    A side-effect can be used to indent a text block:
    [list]
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
    Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
    Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur.
    Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
    [/list]
    
    Which renders like so:
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
      Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
      Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur.
      Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
    Being a side-effect, it should perhaps not be used.
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    And it is also difficult to do.Sir2u

    I was just thinking of history books. Extreme examples could be: the Holocaust was unjust offense, the imprisonment of Jeffrey Dahmer was just defense.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , peace, more accommodating than the original, protection of people (was raised by the Kremlin), would show bona fide interest rather than neo-colonialist/imperialist/irredentist land grabbery, ease up on unpopular conscriptions, cut down on the destruction and killing, some sanctions relief (perhaps including frozen assets), in the general interest of affected citizens, a step towards (re)building international trust, would work against European/whatever rearmament, independent Donbas is reportedly the sort of thing older Donbas folks occasionally dream of anyway, ... There could be further revision, e.g. military non-alignment (was raised by the Kremlin), a fresh Kharkiv style Pact, ... Doable? Kyiv would have to make concessions. Too much peace-mongering for war-mongers? :)


    My interest in a revised peace plan such as the above, would be Kyiv's and the Kremlin's responses, but I can only guess.

    There's no mention of reparations (potentially apart from 3 or 8 if taken further), which is rather costly, hence a significant burden.

    Perhaps this could be another revision:

    9. Guarantees against future aggression

    I'm guessing something along those lines could be acceptable to a majority of countries. After all, it would mean peace (to the extent that refugees could feel safe going home), and a victory in that respect.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    A suggested revision of Ukraine's Peace Formula:

    5. Donbas and Crimea to become free transparent independent democracies, under UN supervision (Europol might take a role) until such a time that their developments are deemed sufficiently safe free independent recovered (with borders) for the UN to take leave

    7. Investigation of all alleged war crimes, and prosecution where found (e.g. ICJ, ICC)

    Seems reasonable enough, as well as technically possible. Or something along those lines. The UN is large enough to handle the load. I'm guessing Kyiv would consider and the Kremlin would deny (pure conjectures on my part). But this could well mean bona fide peace.

    Could it be done?
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    , well, it's trivial to find examples of unjust offense and just defense.

    Anyway, I was trying to convey differentiating offense and defense, as opposed to war without further nuance. Seemed a bit like you were doing the same.
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    The moral case is clear, "we are all people" and those lives are all equal. That's why the just war tradition sets out to find objective criteria and random squiggly lines on a map ain't it.Benkei
    The "We are all people" concept does need to be accepted by both parties in a conflict if it is to be acted upon. If only one side plays by those rules, they will be the ones to suffer because the other party will use it to their own advantage.Sir2u

    So, something is missing here.

    Is there such a thing as a just offense, and such a thing as a just defense?
    Heck, while at it anyway, what about an unjust offense, and an unjust defense?
    Isn't violent conflict typically chains of offense/defense (except the best defense is a good offense)?

    Human rights movements and prisons say unjust offense and just defense, seems like a no-brainer, with the offense/defense nuance.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    FYI, published a year ago, has takeaways:

    Kennan Cable No. 82: Putin’s Home War: Imperialism vs. Economy
    — Marsha McGraw Olive · Wilson Center · May 2023 · 9 pages (pdf)

    Short article with some historical background:

    Why the USSR Collapsed Economically
    — Matthew Johnston, Michael J Boyle, Katrina Munichiello · Investopedia · Jun 24, 2021

    Might be of interest to some.
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    To any sane person homicide is :sad:.

    But as a last resort, it might be rightfully be labeled a tragedy.
    Tzeentch

    Hmm Can't quite figure out if that's a :down: or a don't know or a :up:
    Leaning towards reading your comments as a :up: which is the most common anyway
    Is my interpretation way off...?

    In my old Dojo, we were taught: trouble → run. :up:
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    , so, homicide to defend your loved ones is :up: then?
  • Are War Crimes Ever Justified?
    :ok:Tzeentch

    How far does this go I wonder...

    How about yourself, would you choose death before homicidal self-defense? (due to immorality of homicide)

    If they come for your loved ones, would you also be (or run) elsewhere? (after all, there might be killing involved)

    In short, are there boundaries? Would homicide (or whatever-cide) ever be OK?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , critique or (supposed) prophecy? Should such a time come, "hungry nice fascist/authoritarian powerhouses" would appreciate similar sentiments toward an effective European defense. And they'll help them along too. Divide and conquer has worked well enough. Maybe ask the Baltics Finns Swedes Moldovans Ukrainians about (the ehevil) NATO. (I'd repeat other things, but, anyway, nevermind.)


    Small group of pre-war buddies, now paratroopers, with journalists, enter a battle zone. Metal in the air. 14 hours documented in 26 minutes. It's about sending the invaders packing, and that's it. Started with the Kremlin's ownership/entitlement attitudes and "vision". Probably not what you want in your neighborhood.
    Surrounded by the Russians. UA Paratroopers & United24 Journalists under RU Assault. Kayfariki & BSDG (— UNITED24 · May 4, 2024 · 26m:48s)

    I'm a bit surprised how little anti-drone weaponry has been developed. Maybe a drone-capturing drone? Not trivial, but much tech is available.


    red linesTzeentch

    Ukraine has its own "red lines" otherwise known as borders. So does Belgium, Finland, Japan and others.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Combined with the swift deteroriation of democratic principles in almost every Western democracy and we'll have a nice fascist alliance in a few decades.Benkei

    Incidentally, who do you think is eagerly trying to help that along? :D Thus sort of making full circle, well, in part at least?

    Virtual Hatred: How Russia Tried to Start a Race War in the United States (— William J Aceves · California Western School of Law · 2019)
    The Corruption of the American Mind: How Foreign Funding in U.S. Higher Education by Authoritarian Regimes, Widely Undisclosed, Predicts Erosion of Democratic Norms and Antisemitic Incidents on Campus (— NCRI · Nov 6, 2023 · 53 pages)
    Vladimir Putin’s plan to ‘tear the US apart’ during 2024 election exposed (— Charlie Bradley · Express · Dec 23, 2023)
    Russia’s War on Woke (— Mikhail Zygar · Foreign Affairs · Jan 2, 2024)
    Doppelganger operation (— EU DisinfoLab · Feb 2, 2024)
    President Grills Ivanishvili and GD in Final Address to Parliament, Offers to Mediate United Opposition Platform (— Civil Georgia · Feb 6, 2024)
    It may be too late to stop the great election disinformation campaigns of 2024 but we have to at least try (— Tom Felle · The Conversation · Feb 9, 2024)
    The Threat from Russia’s Unconventional Warfare Beyond Ukraine, 2022–24 (— Jack Watling, Oleksandr V Danylyuk, Nick Reynolds · RUSI · Feb 20, 2024)
    Denying Russia’s Only Strategy for Success (also see Reflexive control) (— Nataliya Bugayova, Frederick W Kagan, Kateryna Stepanenko · ISW · Mar 27, 2024)
    Czechia busts Russian propaganda network targeting European elections (— Martin Fornusek · The Kyiv Independent (Deník N, Der Spiegel, Le Monde) · Apr 1, 2024)
    Tracing the rise of Russian state media on TikTok (— Valerie Wirtschafter · Brookings · May 2, 2024)
    (↑ there are more reports, that's one state actor among others)


    And if NATO doesn't become some "nice fascist alliance in a few decades"? We already have hungry nice fascist/authoritarian powerhouses (that would like to see the sentiment above grow to action). This sort of anti-NATO rhetoric is indeed naïve, short-sighted, and
    ridiculousBenkei
    Unless...there's a suitable replacement in place?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Telling a fine story as usual, @boethius. :)

    over 2/3rds of Ukrainians were against NATOboethius

    Are you referring to the May 2014 gradual switch, observed in polls?

    1991              · Ukraine-NATO relations start
    1993-6            · Ukraine given some security commitments by Russia, UK, US
    1997              · Ukraine joins Planning and Review Process (NATO)
    1998              · NATO-Ukraine Commission
    20100118-0207     · Yanukovych wins election
    20131121-20140222 · Euromaidan
    20140218-23       · Dignity Revolution
    20140318          · Russia annexes Crimea
    20140329          · Kyiv: Ukraine is neutral, non-aligned
    201405--          · Roughly all polls switch from neutral to NATO
    20140525-26       · Poroshenko wins election (CyberBerkut interference)
    20190401-19       · Zelenskyy wins election
    20220224          · Russia invades Ukraine
    20220308          · Kyiv: Ukraine not insisting on NATO membership
    20220930          · Ukraine applies for NATO membership
    20230404          · Finland joins NATO
    20240307          · Sweden joins NATO
    

    whereas Ukraine is pervasively corruptboethius

    You keep repeating this (and the like) just as if having pre-settled the matter (to yourself).

    The Ukrainians have been looking to the EU for some time, despite Putin's warnings. They've shown willingness to reform, have independent election observers (+ generally, foreign press and whatever), ditch officials having been found corrupt, work with the EU to develop a fair democracy, ..., during invasion + bombing. More or less the opposite of Putin's Russia — that dominating neighbor they want to wrestle free from. In short, they're trying, whereas your comments has a faint whiff of racism occasionally seen elsewhere and fatalism (peppered with a bit of conspiracy), while portraying Putin's Russia as impregnable, faithfully echoing Putin's words. (Heck, "trying was always futile, Ukraine is Russian", right?)

    Putin signs decree setting Russia’s development goals for 2030
    — TASS · May 7, 2024
    Russia to join ranks of top four global economies — presidential decree
    — TASS · May 7, 2024
    join ranks of the top four global economies by the purchasing power parity
    agro-industrial production volume should grow by 25%

    I'm sure a good chunk of Ukraine under the Kremlin would help with that. :)