flexible standards lead to favouritism and bias. — god must be atheist

No more than minority standards lead to elitism and exclusivity. Philosophy is not the exclusive domain of academics and should be friendly to a diverse background of genuine interest. If anything, I feel politeness should govern, and rudeness be excluded. But that's just me. I'll settle for the current scheme of "Moderation."

There was nothing superficial about my reading. You are attempting to impose your idea of a rule on the moderators and the forum. That isn't how the forum works. It's a diverse community and it demands a flexible standard, which is what is accomplished by having human moderators exercising human judgement.

It's highly speculative, I'll admit. Nevertheless, I don't think it can be specifically disproved. The ubiquity of fractals in natural systems in my mind is suggestive that information might have a kind of ontological independence. I often wonder whether there is such a thing as "information density"....

It appears then that the only situation in which this occur would be the end of the universe itself, in which the universe would be unable to retain any memory of the past. — Bradaction

Yes, this does look like a 'hard stop' to everything. Unless perhaps there is an "information dimension"?

An example of such a debate would be a situation where all traces of humanity were suddenly removed from the universe, — Bradaction

I think the key counter-argument involves the condition "where all traces are removed" - this is not what happens in reality. In reality, every event "shapes" subsequent reality, so nothing is ever really "forgotten" by the universe as a whole. Michael Leyton wrote an interesting book Symmetry, Causality, and Mind, in which he considers how the mind recovers causal history from shapes; it is a decent read.

It isn't the role of members to "oust" other members (that's cliquey and elitist) it's the job of the moderators. Anyone can censor an annoying post just by ignoring it. It's easy.

Here's how I conceptualize this apparent paradox. Think of the universe as a set of particles subject to a very basic physics, like a computer simulation. In that case, a Laplacian super-computer could, given a known set of starting parameters, accurately predict the state of the universe at any given time. But no new information is actually being revealed by the description of any subsequent state. Every instantaneous state already contains the complete picture of every force and particle in existence. Extrapolating one step (or a million steps) forward (or backwards) only results in a different description of exactly the same thing.

The most interesting thing about mechanical theories is the point at which they fail. Physics is the science of...approximation.

As in all things, I endorse the individual's right to choose. Medical science - all science - is inherently imperfect, as the history of science abundantly proves. The number of times that expert opinion has reversed even in the course of the pandemic also testifies to this. So if the majority of people choose to vaccinate out of self-interest that is great. I am going to avoid the vaccine just as diligently as I am trying to avoid the virus. I work in the medical field andcould have been fully vaccinated in January had I wished.

:up:

Yes, and I think there are different kinds intersubjective agreement as well. There is agreement of consensus (we agree that we agree) and there is agreement of understanding. I think that latter is far more substantial, in the sense that it perhaps transcends the limitations of symbolic meaning. One never quite knows to what extent meanings are truly shared...but having that as an ideal or goal is a start.

I think that your understanding of reality is your reality. Interaction with the universe is not optional. So people exist in the state of understanding reality, which is primarily performative. If that understanding reaches a certain level of sophistication, then it can rise from being performative to being symbolic. And if the symbolization is accurate, than it can be codified and transmitted. Subject to the condition that such understanding ratifies ultimately at the performative level. I doubt the value of any pure abstraction.

Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxemburg
David Copperfield by Charles Dickens

You can if you want, but I doubt it's worth it. To me Habermas sounds just like neo-Marxism phrased slightly differently to the usual stuff. — Apollodorus

Habermas' theory of communicative action is much more anthropological.

what the apparatuses are through which control is exerted, how they operate, and who controls them. — Apollodorus

Habermas calls such "steering media" - money and power for example:

which bypass consensus-oriented communication with a 'symbolic generalisation of rewards and punishments'. After this process the lifeworld "is no longer needed for the coordination of action". This results in humans ('lifeworld actors') losing a sense of responsibility with a chain of negative social consequences. Lifeworld communications lose their purpose becoming irrelevant for the coordination of central life processes. This has the effect of ripping the heart out of social discourse, allowing complex differentiation to occur but at the cost of social pathologies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Communicative_Action

I think our whole notion of land-ownership has led us to the brink of catastrophe. Nobody owns the land. We human beings share it with myriad other life forms. If we do think of ourselves as somehow privileged in our relationship to the earth, then it can only be as caretakers. So whoever is prepared to look after the land to the maximum benefit of the natural order is the rightful 'owner'.

Post it up! You can always start a new thread.

I created a thread on false beliefs, or should I say, "false believing," a little while ago. What you are talking about has been central to my personal approach to philosophy since about 1990, and I've read and written extensively on cognitive biases and the notion of the ego as an obstacle to knowledge. It's a topic I can't get enough of. :)

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10704/believing-versus-wanting-to-believe

Have you ever considered what is the fundamental process of learning itself? — Tiberiusmoon

I have. What we learn must be something new, but not entirely unforeseen. It must either fill a gap in an already existing coherent structure of thought; or else completely overturn such a structure and its presuppositions. And wanting to learn is not enough. Sometimes the learning most needed is the one not wanted.

Thanks! When you say that the teleonomy element bears scrutiny, do you mean you believe that our fundamental ethical motivations are utilitarian rather than intuitive? — Adam Hilstad

You've already mentioned "collective teleonomy" - I think that the actual results of our teleonomic endeavours are a product of our evolved capacities, which are a product of individual efforts insofar as the individual either understands or at leasts conforms to collective principles. This is why I've been focussing on the whole phenomenon of social interaction and communication for the last couple of years. The human species is a hive, no less than bees are. Think of what we could accomplish if our mutual-collective understanding reached the level of cooperation of more primitive species. The ego may be our biggest obstacle.

It seems to me that the is/ought dichotomy is false, and the illusion of dichotomy is created by placing the ‘is’ first. I tend to think that we believe what makes sense given the evidence precisely because we ought to. In this way, ‘is’ derived from ‘ought’. — Adam Hilstad

:up:

As I mentioned in your other thread, i think your gloss of the is-ought relationship in terms of the ethics of meaning is excellent. I was going to suggest extending this to the whole is-ought problem at that time. It makes absolute sense to me. As to the overall meaning or mechanics of teleonomy, I think that is the thing bears scrutiny.

Thanks Pantagruel. I suppose I believe that we are truly rational animals. — Adam Hilstad

I believe that rationality is a capacity. But as thinking beings, we also have another capacity for self-deception. This is where philosophy (for me) really gets challenging, both as a personal and a social project....

Cheers! :)

Well, there is the fundamental divide, Buddhists believe that the material world is an illusion, the spiritual real; whereas most of the western world believes the opposite. However, both agree that "something is real." So I guess we all agree that something is real, and what is real is what is important.

I feel as though you’re manufacturing disagreement where there is none. I will say, that there isn’t any way to completely abstract experience is an assumption, as is saying that abstract reality is an illusion (although objectivity is admittedly always tentative). I completely however agree that higher logical order is created through moral action—that is the whole gist of my philosophy. And yes, in that sense I completely agree that belief systems and life projects are important. — Adam Hilstad

Don't get me wrong, your style is clear, and I see lots of excellent assumptions. "Meaning, in an important sense, is always determined by what an expression ought to mean. Meaning is ethical." I think this is insightful. "If we don’t make some effort to understand that with which we disagree, then who will?" This reminds me of Habermas. But the way you wrap it in this overarching concept of normalization seems overly-analytical.

"Normalization may also be understood as the continuous, iterative neutralization of artificiality within the understanding."

This seems artificial; understanding is natural, we make it artificial, when we over-analyze, and forget that it is an ongoing balanced project of analysis and synthesis, often occurring at an intuitive level. That said, I admire an ambitious system and it may work well for those with more of a taste for analyticity; I'm more of a holistic thinker.

Scheler and others I've read make no bones about the fact that different causal rules apply in different realms. This is also my perspective. However for an emergent whatever to be more real than the constituents from which it emerged, I think it would likewise have to be in some sense therefore independent of those constituents, and i find it hard to believe this could ever be the case. Equally real, but not more real.

I guess the only way this question makes sense is: Are emergent properties more real than the constituent elements of the systems from which they emerge?

Absolutely.

Can you add an SD card to your tablet for more capacity?

Have you read his book Ends and Means yet Jack?

The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley

Belief in the importance of abstraction/generality is a belief of a higher logical order, and therefore by nature it assists in building bridges between beliefs of lower logical orders. — Adam Hilstad

And I would counter with a quote from the final sentence of the book I just finished now by Max Scheler, in the final essay on "Idealism and Realism." He is discussing the illusion that there is some kind of "lawful formal-mechanical structure" that is independent of the vital life-projects of a living being:

"It is only if we are not conscious of the artificial abstraction from the existential relativity of this structure to life and of life, in turn, to spirit, that the illusion is created that this structure is valid for the absolute reality of the world."

There isn't any way to completely abstract from the lived-experience of the life-project, which is fundamental; more fundamental than the notion of some abstract objective reality, which is an illusion. If there is a higher logical order, it is being created through moral action, I would say. In which case, belief-systems and life-projects are indispensable.

Scheler's project of "essential intuition" (his version of the phenomenological reduction) does involve abstracting from all "vital projects" of life in order to intuit the essence of the real. Perhaps that is the bridge. but this essential intuition is personal, not communicative. I believe in the context of communication, we are thrust back into the realm of the project of coordinating belief systems (discourse theory, deliberative democracy, Parsons, Habermas, etc.)

Ok, but it does coincide with your theory that there could be a "complete agreement on matters sufficiently abstract that they remain insulated from the particulars of specific belief systems." The fact is, abstraction is just another kind of specific belief system, and one which seems to me to have the shortcoming of artificiality, per the example of database normalization. I think I take the opposite approach, that of establishing a bridge or common ground between different belief systems. There may be as many different belief systems as there are thinking beings.

I have a question. You interpret database normalization as "a process wherein redundancy, inconsistency and generally artificiality are eliminated from database design." But, in fact, data is in a much more natural state in its un-normalized form and normalization actually represents the imposition of a constraint of artificial abstraction (for reasons of computational flexibility, granted). In actual application, de-normalized materialized views restructure that data in the most naturally useful ways.

So I guess I'm questioning your interpretation and approach using the analogy or model of normalization?

I wonder if people born deaf can hear in their dreams?

it may be possible to become so immersed in the ideas of others that we may start to drown our own individual voices — Jack Cummins

This may be a good thing. I think that a sensible balance is best, but you have to have that constant influx of information. There are a lot of books waiting to be read! At the end of the day, my goal is to enhance the functioning of my own mind, and that requires information. Why would I try to do that by pulling myself up by my own bootstraps when generations of people have already dedicated so much time and effort to the project?

I've always thought that music points to the most profound experiences we can have as intelligent creatures of some kind. — Manuel

Me too.

I think Nils is right that sight is more functionally important. And I would definitely miss reading, but I don't think I could live without music. Also, if you lose hearing, you essentially also lose speech, whereas if you keep hearing, your ability to maintain a conversation is unimpaired. I would sacrifice my sight for my hearing I think....

When I started thinking about this, I thought, would I rather watch a silent movie, or listen to music?

It is less "experience changing us" and much more "experience becoming us". — Bitter Crank

But we tend to be involved in situations which reinforce our pre-existing traits. Most people go through their lives enacting some variety of the Freudian "repetition compulsion," similar situations arise over and over to which we respond in similar ways. It is only with recognition of this that the notion dawns of wanting to experience life in a different way.

When I was quite young I mostly read Sartre. Eventually, contemplating his notion of "radical freedom," that we are so free that we can choose to do anything, even to the extent of doing something radically different from our normal predispositions, I had a clear intuition this was an essential truth. I began to consciously strive to enact this choice. Instead of choosing to avoid doing something I didn't really like doing, like going to a party with a bunch of people I didn't know, I chose to do the thing that I didn't like. Not only do it, but embrace it, be outgoing and gregarious. And the opposite, refraining from doing some things that I would otherwise spontaneously do.

After having done this a few times, it became obvious that this worked. People see us as we present ourselves. We are what we do. The more I did this, the easier it became to make choices, not based upon past habits, but upon a reflective/intuitive sense of the direction in which I wanted to go, who I wanted to be. The transformation took a long time, and is still on-going. But I do feel that now I have the power to take responsibility for the quality of my own experiences, maybe not always, but overall.

Right, they are they antipodes because they are at the completely opposite poles. I may revisit Merleau-Ponty since you mention that, when I'm done with Scheler. It's been decades.

Husserl said that Heidegger and Scheler were his two philosophical antipodes.

One could argue from a phenomenological point of view that the cup is a cultural object. It loses its sense when we take away its socially assigned use. — Joshs

Yes, that's another valid realm. What the relationships between various types of realms of knowledge and the natural realm are is a complex question. As Scheler approaches it, there is more of a symbolic mediation, while essential intuition grasps prejudicatively.

I'm currently reading Max Scheler's views on phenomenology and science: "the facts of science...are never encountered in the natural world view." I tend to agree. It seems evident that our natural interactions are with the natural world.

How is it one would encounter an atom?