I agree with that.

Well, one of us sounds like a fanatic. I'll leave it at that.

Who should have won WW2, the Axis or Allies?

Not sure what having children has to do with being conscious. Things have been having children since eukaryotes, which arguably are not particularly conscious. — noAxioms

Perhaps they have desires and urges we're not aware of.

Yes, but any p-zombie or human would say that. — noAxioms

When humans say "pain hurts" it's true. When a p-zombie says it, it's not. And, I'm not so sure a p-zombie would say "pain hurts". Why would they lie? Wouldn't they just be confused about what "hurting" is and ask for clarification?

I assume you are telling the truth when you say "pain hurts" and it does indeed hurt so you are not a p-zombie.

What a gross viewpoint.

So the thousands of innocent children murder by Israeli forces should have known better 17 years ago. Got it.

By that logic, the Israelis who died on October 7th were also learning some “hard” lessons for electing a terrorist government. Glad to know you’re cool with Hamas’ actions. — Mikie

How many German and Japanese kids died because their parents made bad decisions in the 1920's and 30's? A lot. Far more than Israel will end up killing. Innocents get killed in war. Hamas and the Palestinians should have thought about that when they went down this road.

Land is undoubtedly part of the issue with Hamas and Palestinians. From what I've read, though, I believe the motivation of groups like Hamas to slaughter Jews and die trying is primarily religious in nature. I can be convinced otherwise. What evidence do you have?

Why did they do all that then if it's so stupid? — bert1

Good question. Why did the 9/11 hijackers commit suicide to kill American civilians?

"Abu Mohammed picked up his rifle, said farewell to his wife and six children and went out to face the Israeli tanks, helicopter gunships and missile-firing airborne drones.

"Being unable to defeat Israel is no reason to surrender," the Hamas fighter said with a smile as he headed to the Gaza Strip's front line last Saturday, ignoring pleas from his family to stay.

"My children and wife are very dear to me," he said. "But reward in Heaven and the homeland are dearer."

The 38-year-old furniture salesman says he is not afraid to die for the cause of destroying Israel and forging a Palestinian state on all Israel's territory, the West Bank and Gaza Strip."
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-palestinians-israel-fighter/hamas-fighters-battle-on-inspired-by-god-idUKL0312451520080303/

Religious brainwashing has a lot to do with this.

But I don't accept a sweeping Western superiority — Baden

Western countries are superior to Middle East countries. You wouldn't choose to live in Iran, or Iraq, or Egypt over Israel for obvious reasons. Few people here would, especially women or LGBTQ.

and I definitely don't accept a sweeping Western superiority as a cover for war crimes.

The Palestinians thought it would be a good idea to put Hamas in charge. Hamas decided to commit mass rape, and kill a bunch of babies, old people and civilians. What did Hamas and the Palestinians think would happen when they went down this road? Did they think it would end well? Did they learn nothing from history? You call it "war-crimes". :roll: I call it the inevitable ass-kicking that happens after something like Oct. 7th.

I don't think so. All societies are not created equal. The United States was superior to the Confederacy. Churchill's Britain was superior to Hitler's Germany. Roosevelt's America was superior to Hirohito's Japan. And so on. Netanyahu's Israel, as bad as it is, is vastly superior to Hamas.

but because the Palestinians are poor and lacking powerful allies and because they diverge from us ethnically and culturally, so they can more easily be dismissed as expendable. — Baden

As a famous American once observed, elections have consequences. Choosing to be ruled by Hamas has led to some disastrous consequences for the Palestinians. Perhaps they will make better choices in the future. Germany and Japan also had to learn this lesson the hard way.

The point here is that equality is not a wedding vow, and it is worth admitting that we (meaning the West and its values) are superior to others, in terms of morality, technology, civility, and in every way possible. — Hanover

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Does pain hurt? Does it feel bad?

Another difference between P-zombie world and normal world is, Would P-Zombie language have any referents to mental states? Words like "ecstatic" or "agony" or "depressed"? If so, how would those words have come about? Do p-zombies ever look like they're in pain, or sad, or happy? What would cause them to exhibit such behaviors? If they burn their hand, would they then decide to act like they're in pain or would displaying "Ow, that hurts" behavior just happen naturally to them when they're hurt? Would torture work on them?

I find it very hard to believe. — hypericin

I used to come across "I'm a p-zombie" in the international skeptics forum many years ago.

I consider myself to be a p-zombie. — noAxioms

Are you conscious?

Them killing someone after an argument after drinking alcohol wouldn't be a crime of passion then. — Michael

Isn't it a little far-fetched to imagine a p-zombie getting in a drunken argument and murdering someone? Doesn't something like that require a lot of anger, which they don't have? For that matter, why would they drink alcohol or do any kind of drugs? There's no mind for them to alter.

The more we discuss them the more incoherent they seem.

What OP is calling into question is whether the definition of p-zombies is even metaphysically possible, I believe. — Lionino

Yes.

A p-zombie, by definition, will look and behave exactly like us. Anything we can do they can do (except have conscious experience). — Michael

How could a zombie commit a crime of passion??? By definition they have no passions.

True, but if feelings are sufficient for action (and I think it's obvious feelings are), and x has feelings and y doesn't, x may behave differently than y.
— RogueAI

They may also behave the same. Or it may be that both x and y have feelings but still behave differently. — Michael

Would a p-zombie ever murder someone after having a bunch of drinks at a bar and getting in an argument, and then a fight? Or is that uniquely a human thing?

Could a p-zombie commit a crime of passion?

t doesn't follow that are feelings are necessary for action. — Michael

True, but if feelings are sufficient for action (and I think it's obvious feelings are sufficient motivators to do certain things), and x has feelings and y doesn't, x may behave differently than y.

Procreating p-zombies are self-replicating machines that look and behave human. — Michael

Then we are self-replicating machines, since they are the same as us, except dead inside. But as Bert points out:

Do feelings cause action? It certainly seems like they do. — bert1

I think this goes to the heart of it. I don't think we're just self-replicating machines because I think it's obvious we are motivated by desires and feelings. Would a materialist grant that a p-zombie might act completely different than a human because it can't have desires or feelings? But if the materialist grants that, wouldn't that imply a p-zombie human and a normal human really aren't that much alike after all?

Would this assume that the standard model of evolution is the only route to conscious existence? It is entirely possible that an entire world of p-zombies is created completely by the random chance of atom arrangement (possible, but ridiculously improbably haha). I am by no means an expert, just word word 'impossible' always piques my curiosity :) — Daniel Duffy

It's true, a world of completely evolved p-zombies could pop into existence like a Boltzmann Brain. Would the p-zombies then decide to continue their species and reproduce? Is it still metaphysically impossible that p-zombies could evolve into beings like us in the non-Boltzmann way (the "normal" way)?

As I say in the next sentence, it is wrong to regard anyone who does Y as X. Many liberals recognize the need for border security. The question is how to go about doing that. The problem of thinking that anyone who advocates for border security is a fascist is that it blurs the meaning of the term and opens the door to actual fascists.

Some voters might put it in the hands of actual fascists. I would like to think that most voters would not choose fascism, but I am no longer confident that is the case. — Fooloso4

I think you're misreading Frum's quote. He's not saying border security is a fascist thing. He's saying that given a choice between fascists who happen to police the border and liberals who won't, Americans will pick the fascists.

I agree with Frum's tautological statement. — Fooloso4

I don't think it's tautological. Frum is saying that voters value border security so strongly that they'll pick fascists to do it over liberals who won't. That's not true by definition. Voters could behave differently and pick liberals who are soft on border enforcement. But that's not where American voters are at the moment. I think he's right on that.

I agree with Frum's tautological statement. I also agree that it is wrong to regard anyone who looks to secure the borders is a fascist. But what Trump is saying goes far beyond border enforcement. The borders could be closed today but based on what he is saying the immigration problem would remain. If immigrants are poisoning "our" blood then the distinction between legal and illegal immigration is dissolved. What is to be done with them? Sequestered? Deported? What about their children? Are they too poisonous? How many generations back should we go? — Fooloso4

I always ask Republicans how they're going to deport over ten million undocumented immigrants. I remind them there's a proud tradition of xenophobes using cattle cars to round up "vermin". I usually get called names after that. America has historically low unemployment. America needs an influx of young workers to prop up social security and medicare.

"David Frum
@davidfrum
If liberals insist that enforcing borders is a job only fascists will do, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't."

Frum is on to something.

The problem is intractable in America unless truly draconian measures happen. A society reaches a tipping point where there are so many guns floating around, it becomes trivial for anyone (including criminals) to get their hands on one. That then creates an "arms race" where law-abiding people buy guns on the off-chance an armed person breaks into their house/apartment. That increases the number of guns, making it even easier for criminals to get one, etc. America reached that tipping long ago.

That would amount to saying that the US should be globally influential. — frank

If not the U.S. then who? I would be fine with a strong UN that could fill the role of the U.S., and defend countries like Taiwan, Ukraine, Poland, S. Korea, etc. but that's not realistic. So, if the U.S. takes its football and goes home, China will try and fill the power vacuum. I would rather have the U.S. run the show than China, wouldn't you?

IOW, I'm not saying I support Hamas, but...

I was making the point that since consciousness is mass and energy dependant then thoughts are not immaterial. — Mark Nyquist

If thoughts are physical (and located somewhere in the brain presumably), and you imagine an orange, did a part of your brain turn orange?

https://iep.utm.edu/identity/#H2
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-identity/#Lat

Do you really want to go with this line to justify genocide? (Even de facto genocide?)

And to anticipate: yes, I think Dresden was a war crime and immoral. — Mikie

This is one of those cul-de-sacs of illogic Israel bashers run into. Should the Allies have won WW2? It's an easy question to answer. Or, at least, it should be an easy question to answer. Yes, the Allies should have won WW2. The Allies did horrible things, including killing untold numbers of children and civilians, but they were the lesser of two evils. So is Israel.

Seriously?

Ok, let's try that again: who should have won WW2, the Axis or Allies?

When you read, is there a voice in your head (i.e., subvocalization)?

So now several times the number of people killed in 10/7 have been murdered in Gaza. But it’s cool, because the intentions were good. Good guys never deliberately kill children. Or maybe they do, but it’s because they have no choice. Hamas is using them as human shields.

How depraved. — Mikie

Who do you think should have won WW2?

Let's paraphrase that more succinctly: capitalism, has been a scam — Vera Mont

Which country do you think has a superior system?

Sounds good.

Exactly as wealthy as the poorest. They would both own their homes and control enough land to cultivate food for their family and community, have their own source of energy, transport and communication devices, share in recreational facilities and health services, contribute to those services and practice a useful trade the product of which is distributed in the community - from each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
Wealth is an evil concept. — Vera Mont

This sounds nice, but never works in practice.

The mindless rock preserves the information until the curious ape evolves to think about it. — unenlightened

The mindless rock preserves the footprint. To go from footprint to information requires a mind.

How about my questions? Does a falling abacus process information? Do unobserved computers run simulations?

The information is there in the sand, literally imprinted as a record of the shape of the foot that trod there. — unenlightened

The footprint can only become information if there is a mind that analyzes the footprint and interprets it a certain way, draws conclusions from it, attaches meaning to it. Without the mind, how can the footprint be anything other than a footprint?

Imagine an abacus falling through the air, the beads going this way and that. Is the abacus processing information? What about a computer running a simulation of a tornado with no one observing it? Is it still a simulation, or is it just pixels turning on and off?

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