Suppose we're in the Library of Babel and a curator says, "You want an explanation for consciousness? Yes, I have the book right here." Would we be able to understand it?

So many of Trump's hires turn against him. What's that about?

Firstly, I doubt it's possible to know all the physical facts about anything let alone brains, and secondly most of what we call physical facts are conceptual models given in mechanistic causal terms. — Janus

You don't need to know all the physical facts of an engine to figure out what it is and what it does. The same should be true of brains, but it's not. No matter how much an alien/machine intelligence studies a working brain, it will not know if it's conscious or not. Is your claim then that there is some undiscovered method of science the machine intelligence/alien could use to figure out whether something is conscious or not? Shouldn't we at least have some hints by now of what that could be? Are you a mysterian?

I already said the engine is easier to understand being far less complex, and also because our models are mechanistic, and it just may not be possible to understand how the brain gives rise to consciousness mechanistically. What more are you angling for? — Janus

It seems obvious to me that the alien/machine intelligence could know every physical fact there is to know about brains, and still not know the most salient fact: they're conscious. Do you agree? Doesn't that put brains in an entirely new class of things: things you could know all the physical facts about and still not understand them completely?

You would have to pull the engine apart and examine the components and analyze their functions and inter-relations in the overall process of its running.to understand how it works. — Janus

OK, the alien/machine intelligence takes apart the engine after it stops running. Then it takes apart the working brain. Is the engine going to be mysterious in any way? Is the brain?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bill-barr-trumps-indictment-very-damning-even-half-true

""He was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents. Those documents are among the most sensitive secrets the country has.""

For be it for me to be redundant, but this is the man's own Attorney General saying this. What say you?

OK, suppose you have a working brain hooked up to life support and a running engine. Would the engine be mysterious in any way? Would the alien/machine intelligence know that the working brain is conscious?

I don't think so; in any case it's not just a matter of knowing you are looking at an engine or whole motor vehicle but of being able to explain all its functions and macroscopic interactions and inter-relations in terms of the understanding of fundamental particles.

Even if it were possible, it would be such a complex task, I think it could hardly be referred to as "reductionism". — Janus

Fair enough. Let's assume an alien (or better yet, machine intelligence) was examining, for the first time, an engine and a brain. I don't think the engine would be mysterious in any way, but I think the alien/machine intelligence would not be able to figure out the brain was capable of consciousness.

The functioning of an internal combustion engine motor vehicle cannot be understood in terms of the fundamental particles that constitute it. — Janus

Do you mean just the fundamental particles? What if you knew the fundamental particles and all their interconnections/arrangements? Wouldn't you be able to figure out that you were looking at an engine?

It's not meaningless, you just don't agree with it. Do you think consciousness is an illusion? Chalmers demarcates soft illusionism and hard illusionism in that paper I linked. At least read the first couple of pages.

That's a position you still see a lot these days, but I think it's on the decline.

I didn't ask you to evaluate the claim only for the meaning of "illusions" in your statement. What you're reply says is nothing but 'I don't like the sound of it'. — 180 Proof

I was reading a paper by Chalmers last night in response to your reply. You might be interested in it.
https://consc.net/papers/debunking.pdf

That's who I had in mind. Consciousness explained indeed.

The claim that consciousness is an illusion of any sort, in any sense of the word "illusion", is absurd.

Of course, and like an idiot I didn't even consider this aspect. — Tom Storm

That cuts both ways. I know atheists who are so invested in their atheism and the idea they are simply biological machines, they embrace strange notions, like mind and consciousness don't exist or are illusions.

The world seems physical and substantial and from that experience and the reificational potentiality of language we naturally extrapolate the notion of substance. We really have no idea what either physicality or mentality are in any substantial sense. — Janus

The sun also seems to move across the sky, the Earth seems flat, and it seems like we're not moving 10,000+ mph through space. We should be careful about making leaps from what seems true to what is true.

Not only that but many of Trump’s legal losses are not the result of him committing crimes, but the result of anti-Trump lawmakers creating and altering laws to get him. — NOS4A2

Did you actually read the indictment, or listen to analysis of it?

I thought he would be president awhile and that would be the end of it. — NOS4A2

That would have been the end of it, after he lost in 2020, but the GOP went nuts with the stolen election crap, and now he's the GOP frontrunner.

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-finalizes-25-million-settlement-victims-donald-trumps/story?id=54347237

What did you think would happen when you boarded the Trump Train? Did you think it would end well? Like the Scorpion said to the Frog, "You knew I was poison when I got on your back."

I think now you're just trolling people here to get a rise out of them.

"Against boredom even gods struggle in vain."

Trump indicted again. I love seeing the "lock her up!" crowd get sent to the pokey.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-russia-shelling-civilians-fleeing-dam-collapse-rcna88324

Evil.

Ukrainian counteroffensive has officially begun.

Hence, we already have absolute chaos under our so-called rule of law. — quintillus

No we don't.

I remember this bothering Streetlight X, the US getting off now because the actions of Putin are so clear obvious. — ssu

Yeah, I haven't seen some of the quislings around lately.

:up:

Can you give me a quote from a panpsychic saying that kind of thing? — Patterner

Panpsychism is the idea that consciousness did not evolve to meet some survival need, nor did it emerge when brains became sufficiently complex. Instead it is inherent in matter — all matter.

In other words, everything has consciousness. Consciousness is not limited to humans and other animals.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/panpsychism-the-trippy-theory-that-everything-from-bananas-to-bicycles-are

That jibes with the stuff I've heard.

I don't have reason to believe it is. I've chatted with it quite a bit. Amazing though it is, it does not at all seem like chatting with a conscious being. And it claims not to be. — Patterner

That's true, but it could be programmed to say it is conscious (I imagine). I've talked with it a lot too, and when I had it ranking jokes on a 1-10 scale, I was impressed. I won't say I think it's conscious, but the next iteration? And the one after that? Eventually, these Ai's are going to sound just like a human. And if someone did think it was conscious, and that consciousness was affecting ChatGPT's output? I don't think that's a stupid position.

I have tremendous problems with America, to the point where I'll probably become an expat when I retire. But I recognize a petty tyrant when I see one. You don't have to dig deep on this one. Putin thinks the breakup of the Soviet Union was a tragedy. What else would you expect from an ex-KGB thug? He tried for the easy land-grab and it blew up in his face. The rest has been incompetence piled on incompetence piled on a mountain of dead bodies.

America, of course, is thrilled to be fighting this proxy war. But that doesn't make it wrong. For once in America's recent history, it's realpolitik goals and the morality of the situation happen to intersect: helping the Ukrainians is the right thing to do.

Fascinating! How did your toaster respond? Audibly? Did it burn the words onto a slice of bread? — Patterner

A panpsychist would say it's all conscious. I don't agree with it, but it's not a stupid position. They're not morons. I was being facetious with the toaster, but not with today's Ai. Are you sure ChatGPT isn't conscious?

It's like playing Zork, but the computer isn't a moron.

Yes, I figure universal mind is essentially a god surrogate - held in place by similar fallacious justifications and essentially by faith. Instead of (in the case of Yahweh) arguing there can't be something from nothing, therefore god - AI seems to be saying, there can't be consciousness from nothing, therefore universal mind. Universal mind still functions as 'god', as the foundational guarantor of all conscious experience. — Tom Storm

Yes, I think idealism ultimately entails a godhead.

Satisfied swine rather than sad Socratics? IMO, as a species, we owe most of the achievements of civilization to the latter and much of the incorrigible inertia / neglect to (the wallowing of) the former. — 180 Proof

I go back and forth on that. Who wants to be depressed, but the thought of losing my intellect horrifies me.

While I've considered it worthwhile to respond to your trolling up till now, because people who are serious thinkers seem likely to be reading along. I'm not seeing a point to continuing. So thanks for the discussion. — wonderer1

I'm trolling because I asked you questions about brains and consciousness? You better develop a thicker skin if you want to be taken seriously here.

delete

10 print "I am conscious"

OK, now what? Do we assume a Commodore 64 is conscious because it says it is and there's no downside?

Let's give your toaster and car whatever tests of consciousness we can think of. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until they fail a test. — Patterner

What tests do you propose we give an AGI that we suspect is conscious? Ask it?

What's the upside and downside of the options? — Patterner

The upside is that we're not making a horrendous mistake and mistreating something that's conscious. There is no downside. But as I said before, this applies to toasters and cars and my computer as well as AGI's. How far do you want to extend this courtesy to machines?

The popular Western description echoing that Russia is a gas station impersonating a country is entirely a product of envy. — yebiga

Do you really think that westerners, particularly Americans, envy Russia?