It is the current state of political affairs that most concerns me. Does being a 'Socratic philosopher' help? — Amity

If we observed midichlorions, it would indicate Jediism is true. — Hallucinogen

↪180 Proof That seems to be a very good account of morality — Tom Storm

I recall Slavoj Žižek making the entirely reasonable riposte that, 'If there is a God, then anything is permitted'.

Do you think that the development of morality is a significant aspect of our evolutionary trajectory?

a world where there are no absolutes — Fire Ologist

Do you agree with me then, that anyone who does not believe in natural, objective truths, really has no ground to stand on to build up a morality? — Fire Ologist

Would you call your morality utilitarian?

Just because God said to Moses “thou shalt not murder, steal, and lie” [ ... ]

It’s still an objectively good idea to say murder is wrong, no matter how you derive that idea.

Aren’t suffering, pain and pleasure subjective ...?

Don't limit yourself. — Harry Hindu

Is it not relevant in a thread discussing religion and metaphysics to assert that religion is a type of delusion?

And does this assertion provide a non-dual "bridging" between theism and atheism ...?

Would the answer to the thread's question ...?

Do you know what is the Good? — Janus

If someone claims to know what is the Good, do you know, can you know, that she knows what is the Good?

Show me where this thread is about the defining attributes of "theism". — Pantagruel

Some people who don’t believe in God, also say things like “there is no truth” or “there are no absolutes.” — Fire Ologist

So something is there for you to work out a morality.

• humans are natural beings which are imbedded in and inseparable from nature and its regular processes (re: objective facticity);
• natural beings suffer from what they do to and what they fail to do for themselves or others;
• humans know what makes humans (and other natural beings like humans) suffer and therefore how to prevent or reduce human (natural beings') suffering (re: disvalue);
• virtues are habits reinforced by preventing and reducing suffering (re: disvalue) whereas vices are habits reinforced by neglecting or increasing suffering (re: disvalue);
• human flourishing means maximizing virtues and minimizing vices)

... moral laws ...

Does the above make sense to you now? — Fire Ologist

if I didn’t believe in God and objective truth

You don't have a left in the US. You have a slightly left of centre Sanders who is silenced by the Democratic Party which is itself right but not as authoritarian as the Republicans (unitary theory of government Bullshit). — Benkei

I recall qualifying the 2020 election as a choice between two evils. One of those evils got a lot worse. It clarifies once again that the USA doesn't qualify as a democracy. If the political system cannot produce choices beyond a vegetable and a criminal then quite obviously other people are in control what you get to vote on. We call that banana republics. — Benkei

Based on Abrahamic, Hindi, pantheonic Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Babylonian-Persian-Mesoamerican-Aboriginal traditions, I understand theism as consisting of [at least] the following claims:

(1) at least one ultimate mystery
(2) created existence,
(3) intervenes in – causes changes (which cannot be accounted for otherwise) to – the universe
(4) and is morally worthy of worship.

Cite any deity-tradition, sir, that you consider 'theistic' and that does not conceptualize its (highest) deity with these attributes, or claims. :chin: — 180 Proof

[W]hy make moral laws we all should follow if there is no such thing as laws we all should follow? — Fire Ologist

Please answer my question. — L'éléphant

By destroying people's freedom and ability to think, theism can cause untold damage. The step from believer to satanically evil is very small. All one needs to do is project one's own nihilism and religious absolutism onto others. It even works because fanaticism craves converts. — Tom Storm

Nature is not created equal or fair, and as a result, some human population had fared better than others. — L'éléphant

All the religious person can do is interpret scripture or respond from personal perspectives regarding how they 'imagine' god wants them to behave. — Tom Storm

If we grant that there is objectivity ... — Fire Ologist

God serving as judge of moral objectivity

I believe those of us who think every “object” we take up is ONLY constructed by ourselves, are just wrong, because there is an objective reality with mind-independent distinctions in it.

This is because I believe ..

Ad hominem, not an argument. Quite telling. — 180 Proof

↪180 Proof It isn't against you. It is a generalized fact about the epistemological makeup of individual entities, of which you happen to be one. — Pantagruel

Or you have failed to observe the evidence in the events comprising your own life due to your own attitude, or simply some inherent limitation of your cognitive makeup. — Pantagruel

Do I have free will? — kindred

To deny the possibility of something that someone else has experienced because you have failed to experience — Pantagruel

The substance of any belief is the effect] that belief has upon the actions of the believer.

... punching bags to us post modern sages. — Fire Ologist

All you’re doing here is saying god equals objectivity. But you can’t demonstrate a single belief any god holds regarding morality. Pretty sure you can’t point to a single objective truth about that god. And you certainly can’t demonstrate a god. — Tom Storm

How could it be an illusion though, seems to me I have an array of choices. — kindred

... traditional tropes, such as the Biblical vision of God creating the world for the use of humanity have contributed to this looming crisis.

Our economic system is unsustainable, being predicated on endless growth, with collapse being the only alternative. Nothing to do with tradition, unless you count the tradition amongst economists of discounting ecological costs as a part of the economy. That greater disrupter of tradition, science, has been telling us how wrongheaded this economic thinking in terms of "externalities" is for more than half a century. — Janus

the degree to which the coalitions which make up the Dems coalesce again like they did in 2020 to make the election about opposition to The Neofascist Criminal Clown in Roevember. — 180 Proof

That isn't nonsensical though, is it 180? — AmadeusD

What do you want and expect from philosophy? — Fooloso4

[The] purpose of philosophy, especially for those who recognize that they (we) are congenitally unwise, may be (YMMV) to strive to mitigate, to minimize, the frequency & scope of (our) unwise judgments, conduct, etc via patiently habitualizing various reflective exercises (e.g. dialectics, etc.) And in so far as 'wisdom' denotes mastery over folly & stupidity (i.e. misuses & abuses, respectively, of intelligence, knowledge, judgment, etc), I translate φίλος σοφία as striving against folly & stupidity.

No theist can identify objective truth either. — Tom Storm

Lots of evidence there is no such thing as free will. — Fire Ologist

If there are no rules, we can’t languish in the anxiety of breaking the rules.

The premise here is there is no god, no objective truth.

No God, no hope for anything more than nature drawing its breath. — Fire Ologist

Why be ethical at all?

Seems philosophy and ethics would be annoying and tiresome.

So maybe atheism is not only rational, but accurate, but if it is so, aren’t ethics and truth irrational?

It’s all bullshit we tell ourselves. — Fire Ologist