I cannot fathom your level of delusion.


"On 15 May 1948, the civil war transformed into a conflict between Israel and the Arab states following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine.[15] The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.[16][17][18] The 10 months of fighting took place mostly on the territory of the British Mandate and in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon, interrupted by several truce periods.[19]"

Israeli war crime — Benkei

You will never be able to define a war crime to me so don't bother trying.

Although I will say what is the difference between a war and a crime just a rhetoric question?

But yay firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel is a war glory

confusing them with Palestinians in The Knesset — Benkei

You claimed the Palestinians (just Arabs) were being kept poor or are you applying that to the Palestinians in the Knesset?

Or are you just an outright lying propagandist anti-Semite. You decide.

Delegitimizing the millions of Arabs in Israel as poor victims is not only lies, but patronising dishonest, Anti-Semitic and deranged.

Well done your deranged prejudice has shone through. Good luck at creating peace in the Middle East.

Palestinian Arabs living Israel (nearly 2 million) are not real Palestinian Arabs. Well done solving that psychotic conundrum in your mind.

I have not caused Any problems in the Middle East but you certainly are by your barrage of lies. Well Done.

I don't expect you to Enlighten me on How Hamas took control of Gaza . Must have been the Jews fault!

That's not freedom, though. That's just an unwitting form of subjugation. — thewonder

What is freedom?

I would consider anyone who is happy, however deluded, free from suffering. Which is the only freedom we want.

Denying the responsibility of parent for children's suffering is a delusion and subjugation to a fiction. Believing in fake countries, boundaries and human rights is a subjugation. Recognising the ruthless position we are in nature is enlightenment. This "debate" focuses on unearned premises and axioms and moral authority being used to condemn the Jews. It is not based on Natural Law or naturally emerging rights. It is the smug superiority of those who gained their own comforts through years of slavery, colonialization, oppression, misogyny and war and now they si ton their sofas condemning people with out this mental protection.

I am sorry for your brother, but don't think that you should use such an anecdote to promote the nihilistic cynicism that you have adopted. — thewonder

I am not using it. It is a fact. Nature causes and allows massive suffering.

Here is the Reverend Dawkins

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference"

Morality is opposition to the reality of nature and moral indignation is nay but a ripple in a pond.

You can only want out of a cult. You may not realize that you do, but, within the full breath of your reason, you would. — thewonder

I am the only person in my family who is non religious. Freedom for the rest of my family is not abandoning there religious indoctrination. In relation to the topic of this thread notions of freedom are distorted. Apparently Palestinian Arabs do not want to be free form Hamas, Misogyny, racism, Anti-Semitism, Islamic fundamentalism etc. Their only source of lack of freedom is Israel (ie the Jews) and not their own ideology?

Have Gazan's spoken up against Hamas. Umm yes after they have fled Gaza to the safety of somewhere else. Saying Hamas's captives in the strip support them is like saying I endorsed my childhood in a cult. Because I was indoctrinated and defenceless.

Anarchists today have mistaken Anarchism for generalized chaos — thewonder

I am not an expert in anarchism but survival of the fittest is controlled anarchy were viable situations survive.

I am a skeptic of evolution but we are told it is a controlled form of chaos. Things survive but with no moral claim on their successes.

The anarchy is in letting things freely emerge without the intervention of minds. Antinatalism is not anarchy however. It is akin to Eastern religion and ending the cycle of life an death.

It recognise the trap of hedonism (The hedonistic treadmill) and surviving for the sake of surviving.

keeping Palestinians poor, — Benkei

They have had billions in Aid. Where did the stockpile of 30,000 rockets come from? Nearly 2 million Palestinian Arabs live in Israel.

Here is a list of Palestinian Arab members of The Knesset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

You seem kind of distressed. — thewonder

Like everyone else on the thread who seems to be in a state of hysteria and indignation. Making genocide allegations and what not.

Freedom is good, man. — thewonder

The human body is a mortal prison.

I can't see the freedom in that? Any freedom I get will either be in an afterlife or in finding personal integrity in this life.

Part of my personal integrity is defending Israel and the Jews with my last dying breath.

A person necessarily demands to be free from coercion — thewonder

I will read the rest of your post later.#

However.

I grew up in a religious cult and was abused my entire childhood without freedom. Nature does not provide and respect freedom a lot if not of most young animals die in infancy. Most fertilisations end in miscarriage.

I just was not as privileged as you to demand freedom as a child hence I was imprisoned in a cult and attempted suicide as a teenager. It is too late to grant me rights now. No One cares. They are trapped in their own ideological delusions. People seem to think everyone else is the same as them and does not appreciate huge ideological and personal gulfs.

Anyone supporting Islam to me is a child abuser. I grew up in a Christian cult but they are endorsing the same kind of helplessness and abuse. And apparently you can't criticize Arabic/Palestinian/Muslim child abusers misogynists and homophobes because the real problem is the Jews.

Feel free to tell me who they are. :smile:

The axioms on which one is condemning their enemy — Andrew4Handel

I condemn everyone for having children not Just the Palestinians and Jews. You can ignore it all you like But Palestinian Arabs are having large families for just one reason. Having children is indefensible and harmful but having them to try and win a land dispute is delusional and sadistic.

I have been evicted from a property because the landlord was a crook but I didn't fire 1,500 rockets at him. I suffered abuse my entire childhood and have not used that to justify killing anyone.

We have a right not to be forced into existence.
— Andrew4Handel

Are you seriously not noticing any of this? That’s.... impressive. — khaled

That is not a contradiction.

No one has rights and that includes parents. They don't have the right to have children I misphrased by saying "we have a right"

If their are rights the primary one is not to exist because some other selfish narc wants children.

I thought you were an antinatalist? Are you going to support the right of Arabs/Palestinians to have 14 children whilst living in a cave?

The lack of rights favours no one. Moral nihilism favours no one. No one can defend their position using nature. Reality is anarchist and your position may survive or it may not.

Things that need validating or explaining here are.

The validity of Nationhood status
The validity of classing something a war crime

The validity of any moral system
The axioms on which one is condemning their enemy
The denial of ones own prejudices
The use of inflammatory language like "War crimes" and "Genocide"
Your own personal authority behind the ethical statements you make.
Your actual political spectrum and biases.

Why anyone should take YOU seriously

Why you expend energy on one particular conflict and not the vast majority of conflicts and suffering in the world.

What role your position has in fostering a peace if that is what people (allegedly) want.

Why the death of a small minority of children out of countless child deaths every day should feature in an "argument" on a philosophy forum.

Why you don't believe in the theory of the survival of the fittest.....

There aren't too many good reasons not to believe in human rights, — thewonder

Where would they come from?

We are part of nature and nature allows us to suffer and die it doesn't enforce anything moral. No animal has rights and billions die everyday.

I have stated before that I am an antinatalist. The biggest problem is creating a person (which is a death sentence) leading to them inevitably suffering. We have a right not to be forced into existence.

I have mentioned elsewhere that my older brother died after a debilitating 25 year illness. Humans rights did not prevent years of disability and suffering, Human rights do not sublimate whatever nature has in hold for you

The problem with this conflict as I said previously is the reification of human fictions and bogus claims of moral superiority and ownership validity.

There is much to say of the motivation for the creation of Israel, but you can't really cite a time before the common era so as to make the claim that this or that population was somehow already there. — thewonder

I have stated repeatedly here that I think property is illegitimate and that we are subject to survival of the fittest. I am taking issue with Israel being a pariah state whose existence is less legitimate than anywhere else.

If you don't believe in the legitimacy of ownerships, countries, law and human rights (for good reason) then you see any claim as being equally invalid and no one with a reason for moral superiority.

I am not saying this is you but why do most hippies live in liberal democracies where they don't face existential threats. I am aware my "freedoms" are being defended by the capitalist, exploitative, militarized structure I live in and not by esoteric ideologies.

There's all kinds of complex circumstances that play into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. People say that it's just about land, religion, Western exceptionalism, Islamic extremism, Jews, Arabs, Jerusalem, or whatever else, and you can look at it in all of those ways, but it was created out of a lot of circumstances and both has and does not have the complex history that it is occasionally said to. — thewonder

But the main issue seems to be who "owns" or "deserves" the land.

I think humans are overpopulating and slicing up the world into ever slimmer pieces without a sense of personal or collective responsibility.

I don't consider I own anything and am just lucky to have things and I believe in stewardship where you preserve things in a good condition for everyone to enjoy. Aggressive national land rights and resource right claims are just over exploitation.

But As I have said I think this conflict is a microcosm or microscope on the problem of resolving land disputes. It is a personal preference whether you think one side has more rights than the others.

I live in an area with a lot of homeless people. Life isn't fair.

It is not just a land dispute, though. — thewonder

What else is it?

I am only claiming the alleged genocidal acts are disputes over land ownership.

I wonder what counts as a "plan" here. Do they mean formal documentation? In what sense do the Israelis have this plan? — BitconnectCarlos

I have said to him and others that both sides on the extremes can be claimed to be intent on genocide. Any Arab or Jew who wants to completely expel or kill the other is genocidal. Unfortunately that is the Stated Aim on the Hamas charter.

A genocide may happen but that will be everyone's fault. Because of the rhetoric and lack of reasoned debate.

OK fascist — StreetlightX

I am an antinatalist and I condemn anyone for having children.

I think you are harming the Palestinian cause if you are going to claim having large families during this conflict does not add to the suffering.

What is your actual argument apart from the fascist ad hominem? (I grew up in a family of six. neither of my parents should have had children based on their mental state and they were both very religious) I know what is like for parents to cause unnecessary suffering and have unnecessary children because of their crazy beliefs.

You apparently cannot differentiate between a land dispute and a genocide. I can't help you there. I have outlined my position in detail. Even if you think all of the area belongs to the Arabs it doesn't mean they should have 14 children each. If you cannot see how they are exacerbating the conflict and suffering then I can't help You there either.

A 'dispute' in which one power is subjecting an entire population to destitution — StreetlightX

Thank you for continuing lying. There are nearly two million Arabs living in Israeli borders. How many Jews live in Palestinian territory? Which is more diverse, Israel or the Palestinian territories?. Who is this "entire population". Your position is an unexpected fantastical exaggeration and caricature. I can only think of ONE motive for it because it is out of proportion to what is happening.

Your problem may be that you think all the land belongs to the Arab/Palestinians and see any Jewish presence thereas an affront.

WHO ?actually gets to decides who owns land? It is certainly not you nor is it the UN. (see previous posts for my critique of land ownership)

You should also cite an argument straight out of Mein Kampf about overpopulation too, because that is totally not the calling card of fascists. — StreetlightX

Hitler was a vegetarian, animal lover and had one testicle and Male so apparently now all these things are illegitimate.

Stating the Middle East is overpopulated is fact based on limited resources. Stating People in Gaza have had large families to outnumber the Israeli's is a fact. Blaming Israel for a Palestinian having 14 children whilst living in a cave has got nothing to do with eugenics. It is about apportioning of responsibility which I have stated clearly and extensively here. So now you are throwing out red herrings and ad hominin?

You apparently think all the problems in the region are only caused by the Jews. I'll have some Antisemitism with my cornflakes please.

More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight.

In what sense have Palestinian Arabs died out? Their population has went from in the hundred thousands in the mid 19th century to 7 million plus.

It is land dispute. There was no independent self governing country called Palestine in history. It was part of the Ottoman empire and other Empires, with a diverse population. The Palestinian Arabs rejected the initial two state solution and some of them actively supported the invading countries which tried to wipe out the Jewish presence, which is a true genocide. People have lost land in wars all the time throughout History.

When The Arabs either fled or where expelled into neighbouring countries during a mutual war the countries they went to would not assimilate them into these countries and have persecuted them, denied them equal rights and kept them with a refugee status with the 8500, 000 Jews that were expelled or fled from Arab countries and Iran were assimilated into Israel with equal rights.

If you lie about History then you can make anything anyway you like.

Anyhow I have been asking people here to legitimize the existence of their own country and no one has done so. You probably aren't in a fight for survival because like me in the UK you have a national army, police force, nuclear weapons and etc to enforce any citizenship an property claims you make. But this is not the justified and rational creation of country but the reliance of force to keep up a fictional national narrative which really beneath the veneer is an exploitative survival of the fittest.

You are starting your claims on weak "evidence", disputable claims, faulty axioms, historical ignorance, bias among other things. Enjoy keeping the hate going and ensuring Israel continues it's existential battle for survival.

I'm going to go commit a murder and use this as an excuse I'll let everyone know how it works out. — Maw

What is the excuse for indiscriminately firing thousand of rockets into Israel. They would have caused mass casualties if Israel didn't have bunkers and the Iron Dome shield. That isn't an attempted genocide in your books?

Well 6 millions Jews were killed so that makes it OK if Israel commits a little genocide in turn as a treat. — StreetlightX

That genocide is in your imagination. This is a conflict over territory and it is one of the least lethal conflicts in history.

It is a genocide to you because you don't want Jews living in Israel but that is your genocidal opinion.#

And no doubt you forgot the exodus of 850,000 Ethnic Jews from Arab countries at the same time as the Exodus of Palestinian Arabs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Was that a genocide in your book?

Regardless, however, you seem to value the lives of Jews over those of others when you claim only they deserve to survive. — Ciceronianus the White

I gave my reasons for this.

Do you think you can overlook the killing of 6 million people. Obviously it is relevant to the situation in the Middle as part of history. The expulsion of Jews from Israel by the Romans, the ensuing diaspora the crusades, pogroms and so on. Where did the Jews originate from and the Hebrew Language. The Jews are mentioned in the Quran.
If people killed 6 million of my relatives I wouldn't give a fig what people thought of my actions. Consider the genocide, colonialization and warring history of the rest of the world they haven't a moral authority to give or a moral leg to stand on

In this specific context I was talking about people having 8 children (or even 14) (like the case I cited earlier) and blaming the Jews or Israel for their problems. I can cite evidence that people In Gaza have deliberately had large families to outnumber the Jews. They are not having children to reduce their suffering or for the survival of an ethnicity they have simply overpopulated a finite space (like the rest of humanity is doing). You can criticise one sides actions and criticise the other sides.

But Like I say even if you think someone own a piece of land (something I think is metaphysically impossible) that doesn't mean you can do what you like on it such as overpopulate it increasing children's hardship.

Why complain if Israel, or any other nation of children-producers, disappears from the face of the world? — Ciceronianus the White

I think the the Jews are the only race left on earth that deserves to survive after the attempt to eradicate them and the thousands of years of persecution, displacement and the 6 million holocaust deaths.

I still don't think they should have children.

But Also I only blame parents for the suffering of children because procreation is the only way suffering can happen. I am not happy. I suffer everyday and have like everyone else an inevitable death sentence. No one who has children truly cares about children accept in maybe a delusional hypocritical way with cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization..

The concern about Palestinian children is highly selective and not matched by concern for the vast bulk of suffering and exploited, orphaned, molested and starving children.

I can blame someone else for my suffering but if I have a child now, for no good reason that I can't guarantee a good life that is my fault. Having a child in a war zone is like leaving a baby on a cliff edge. It's child abuse. But instead we are going to argue about the problems having children caused.

Prevention is better than cure.

Why don't you tell is what your axioms are regarding countries, — Echarmion

I don't think countries exist outside human fiction. There are continuous land masses inhabited by humans with arbitrary borders. No other species has a notion like countries and they just jostle for territory (survival of the fittest). War is an extended form of the competition found among animals. (Were you unware of the thousands of wars in human history including the over a hundred years war between Britain and France. What about the occupation of the UK by various groups including the Romans, Vikings and Normans.)

I live where I live through luck of birth not because I deserve to live here or have a birth right . I don't own my property. I have to pay rent to someone else. Many unfortunate people are homeless and orphans around the world.

Human rights are also a human fiction based on peoples desires not anything innate or biologically defended.

I don't live in a fictional world were I reify human fictions as concrete entities. I am neither nationalist or patriot.

I believe in stewardship and cooperation more than ownership. But nevertheless if we were to Claim "A" owned "B" what rights is that supposed to give them? If you own Buckingham palace should you be allowed to destroy it. If you own a forest should you be able to burn it down? If you claim to own part of the middle east should you be overpopulate it and stretch the limited resources and make you children live in need....NO

It's ironic to the point of hilarity (you know, if the topic wasn't dead children) that you criticize the notion of "countries" and "ownership" and use that same criticism to excuse the violent attempt of a country to establish complete ownership over a territory. — Echarmion

I said both sides are using the same tactic. The Palestinians were defeated in the early bouts of conflict when they supported the attempt to eradicate Israel/Jews in the 1940's invasion by the surrounding countries. Extremists on both sides are calling for the subjugation or eradication of the other side.

If you are not interested in the validity of the notion of countries and ownership then you may as well commit mental suicide. You are starting an argument on easily defeasible premises. That's why you ignored the bulk of my post.

Brining up dead children in a rational debate is just a facile appeal to emotions.

Both sides can be accused of ethnic cleansing. They both appear to want total domination of the land. On the (re) creation of Israel it was invaded by the surrounding Arab countries trying to wipe it out.

I have raised this issue before but this conflict illustrates the problem with notions like "countries" and "ownership" Countries tend to be formed by force not reason. Europe has centuries of wars and shifting boundaries and massive colonisation.

With the relative peace and security in Europe after 2 world wars you can be complacent of your own moral superiority whilst facing none of the same challenges.

What makes someone believe that THEIR own country is a legitimate entity and yet not Israel?

What makes a country legitimate?

Hamas won a democratic election in Gaza. Israel did not like the results and punished Gazans for voting Hamas in. — Manuel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict

"The Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights has found that over 600 Palestinians were killed in the fighting from January 2006 to May 2007.[14] Dozens more were killed or executed in the following years as part of the conflict."

Let's weep for personal tragedy to obfuscate the slow genocide of an entire people. — Benkei

The population of The area "Palestine" was 800,000 in the mid 19th century there are now 7 million Arabs living there. So where exactly is this genocide taking place? In your imagination?

Go argue your Zionist lunacies with someone else — Manuel

It is called not being Anti-Semitic and supporting Jews.

I see. — Baden

I doubt it. You engaged in a bogus moral debate based on false premises weak axioms and emotions. Defend your axioms and let's debate. Let's have no slogans and sentiment.

Well there you have it. The thin veneer of the Pro Palestine's.

Go argue your Zionist lunacies with someone else. — Manuel

And good luck with your rabid delusions.

not giving up land they are stealing s — Manuel

Property is theft. Land is only owned by force

We are talking about today, which is what matters. — Manuel

Yes. Israel is on the verge of civil war. There are around seven million Arabs and seven million Jews living in this area and you toxic inflammatory opinions are not going to bring peace. But for some reason you think you have a moral high ground. Puzzling.