I'd suggest that here truth is foundational, and knowledge derivative.An attempt to analyse truth in terms of knowledge using a definition of knowledge in terms of truth will of course be circular. — Banno
For a large class of sentences, the truth of the sentence is decided by how things are, not by how the community thinks they are....where the external truth-maker is decided by the linguistic community rather than the believer. — sime
The United States elevates free speech in a way not seen in other jurisdictions, perhaps to the point of fetishising it. Other countries have found it possible to implement restrictions on acceptable speech. Wikipedia kindly provides a list of examples. As with gun law, the United States is an outlier. The preponderance of US citizens here will render the discussion somewhat parochial.There’s free speech, and then there’s hate speech. And there is no place — especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie — [for that] in our society.... We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech. — Pam Bondi
...some instances of hate speech can be seen to constitute acts of (verbal) discrimination, and should be considered analogous to other acts of discrimination—like posting a ‘Whites Only’ sign up at a hotel—that US law recognizes as illegal... — SEP
I am putting it to you that it is not a useful term. — Roke
1. The strategy and its implementation to be in line with the right to freedom of
opinion and expression. The UN supports more speech, not less, as the key means
to address hate speech
People - who won’t say what they mean - will decide the meaning of what you say. — Roke
...any kind of communication in speech, writing or behaviour, that attacks or uses pejorative or discriminatory language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of who they are, in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality, race, colour, descent, gender or other identity factor.
Well, yes, You seem to be expecting something from the JTB account that it does not provide. It's not a theory of truth.But Q1c was not about belief, but rather truth. Yes, it follows from believing something that I also believe it to be true, but that's not a reply to Q1c, which asks "Is it true?" Nothing I believe can supply the answer; it depends on the facts. — J
Well, yes.The best I can come up with is that claims to knowledge, like any other claim, have to be withdrawn if they turn out to be false. — Ludwig V
Presumably, if you give Wigner's friend a gas mask and put her in the box with the cat, the situation for Schrödinger, outside the box, remains unchanged... the cat is alive and dead; yet the situation for Wigner's friend is different - they can see the cat.
And crucially, Wigner's friend and Schrödinger will agree that this is the case. The rules of physics remain the same for both observers.
I'm not keen on philosophers indulging in speculative physics, but it's worth pointing out that "Shut up and calculate!" is itself a worthy metaphysical option... — Banno
No. We do have knowledge - we know things.I think what you're suggesting is that instead we should say, "I don't know if X is true. Such knowledge is impossible without circularity. But if it's true, then I know X. And if it isn't, then I don't." — J
It doesn't tell us if they are true or not, so much as if they are known or not.JTB is supposed to help us evaluate knowledge claims -- keep us epistemologically honest. And on this construal, it can't. — J
Above, it told us that Jim was mistaken. He claimed to know something that was not true.what use is JTB if it can't show us how to tell whether we know something or not? — J
Given that we believe the sentence, we believe that it is true. Do you mean more than that?I agree with you. But does that mean that the definition must take the truth or falsity of the sentence as given, in some way? — Ludwig V
Our evaluation might be better....my evaluation... — Ludwig V
My point is that the word ‘truth’ doesn’t have any aspect of its meaning that transcends the context of its actual use. — Joshs
Not at all.When you say “truth doesn't care about what is useful," you seem to be treating truth as something with its own independent nature. — Joshs
How can they be tools if they do not in some way "map" onto the world?So "truth," "relevance," "significance", these aren't mapping onto features of the world so much as they're tools we use for various purposes in different contexts. — Joshs
JTB sets out criteria for a sentence to count as knowledge. It is not a method for determining the truth of some sentence.My question is about how we'd know it to be true. — J
That the sentence is true is one of the criteria for the sentence being known. This says nothing aobut how we determined if the sentence is true.You seem to be saying that there's an independent way of determining whether X is true — J
I don't agree with the second part of this. There is a difference between a sentence being true and a sentence being determined as true. You again seem to conflate these. There is a difference between "P is true" and "J determined that P is true". JTB specifies that the sentence must be true, not that the sentence must be "determined to be true".JTB proposes that only true propositions can be known, AND that there is a way to determine truth apart from justifications. — J
Yep.I don't think a JTB account is committed to this. — Srap Tasmaner
Well, maybe not. Perhaps it's just about the grammar of the use of the term "know" - that we use the term for sentences that are justified, true and believed, and that a use contrary to these would be infelicitous. It's not a method for determining which sentences are true and which are not - which is what you seem to want it to be.I think JTB is intended as a test for knowledge, yes, not merely a description — J
Gender and race are important factors in the roles people play in unique contributions and the development of individuality. — Jack Cummins
Something along those lines was also at play in Asimov's Foundation series.A nullification of the butterfly effect. — jgill
Hm. — Janus
No. I know the cat is on the chair but it could have been on the mat. Hence "the cat is on the chair" is true but could have been false.if we know p could be false, then we don't know that it's true — Janus
Better to use "believe". Believing we know something is not the same as knowing something.Thinking we know something is not the same as knowing something — Janus
f p is true then it cannot be false — Janus
But is not knowing something is not false the same as knowing that it could not be false — Janus
Fixed that for you.Yes. Made-up by professional scientists, per the (obviously mis-read) links in previous post. — Gnomon
Modal contexts (what if's...) are stipulated. So the world could have be any way you might wish it to be. Your parents might never have met, or had a different child, or had no children at all... there is no one way things might have been; indeed there are innumerable (literally - without number) of ways the world might have been.My own thought experiment is of thinking about how life would have been if I had not existed. It involves eliminating oneself from every aspect and incident in which one has ever partaken in. I wonder about how different life would have been without me for my family, friends and in all respects..How would life have been different for others without my existence in causal chains? — Jack Cummins
‘Do you remember—’
‘I have a … very good memory, thank you.’
‘Do you ever wonder what life would have been like if you’d said yes?’ said Ridcully.
‘No.’
‘I suppose we’d have settled down, had children, grandchildren, that sort of thing …’
Granny shrugged. It was the sort of thing romantic idiots said. But there was something in the air tonight …
‘What about the fire?’ she said.
‘What fire?’
‘Swept through our house just after we were married. Killed us both.’
‘What fire? I don’t know anything about any fire?’
Granny turned around.
‘Of course not! It didn’t happen. But the point is, it might have happened. You can’t say “if this didn’t happen then that would have happened” because you don’t know everything that might have happened. You might think something’d be good, but for all you know it could have turned out horrible. You can’t say “If only I’d …” because you could be wishing for anything. The point is, you’ll never know. You’ve gone past. So there’s no use thinking about it. So I don’t.’ — Terry Pratchet
The problem I see is that if we know something is true we must know it cannot be false — Janus
I didn't misread the reference, I just focused on the parts that were pertinent to my post :
Mensura = to measure ; Mens- = mind*1*2 — Gnomon
Well, no, it doesn't.Again, this lies on the unsupported claim of an essential dichotomy of: "either causes need to be abandoned or else there is only ever one cause, 'God willed it.'" — Count Timothy von Icarus
which Banno has also picked up on, namely whether the T in JTB is doing any useful work. — J
See how, again, this asks how you know that P is true, and not whether P is true?When do I ever know something is true apart from having the right justifications? How can we make truth independent of justification — J
There, perhaps, is the problem.If the justification-truth circle is indeed a vicious one... — J
Seems to me that folk read JTB as the claim that in order to know something, we must know that it is true. — Banno