You mean all those non-combatants you displaced and then stole their houses and land? — Benkei

Oh please. From those towns they attacked Israel. So Israel goes in, Arabs flee, lose war, and then want it all back like the attempt at annihilation never happened and they can try again later. Sorry, but they lost and that has a consequence. Just curious, is there a precedent for a group going on the offensive, losing the resulting conflict, and then the defender just offering them their land back out of the goodness of their heart or a sense of fairness?

It's not simple theft. It's land gained during war. A war in which the enemy tried to wipe us out.

And the "Palestinians" are colonizers as well unless you're making the claim that they are indigenous.

It's interesting to me that despite not believing in objective morality you clearly do believe in following certain "rights"/principles invented some ~50 years ago extremely resolutely even to the point where its application inevitably results in mass chaos and death.

And why can't the Turks come and re-settle it again?

So the US goes back to the Natives then. And my own state of Texas would return to Mexico. But certainly there was an owner that predates Mexico. Not sure where we draw the line there but ok. :up:

But why do the Palestinians get it? Why not just return it to the Turks? Why do you suppose the Palestinians are the original inhabitants? It's in the name, isn't it? :chin:

I'm not entirely sure which post of mine you're referring to.

My point is simple: Allowing ~6 million Palestinians full Israeli citizenship calls the fundamental nature of Israel as a secular Jewish state into question. Israel may then very well end up being an Islamic state following Sharia law after the demographic change.

Would you rather see it a Muslim state? There are no millions of secularists pouring in to secularize the land. It is either Muslim or Jewish. But Israel is not governed by Jewish religious law. It is a secular Jewish state.

Maybe pockets of violence— maybe just issues at first but not in the long run — Mikie

Having 6 million Palestinians come to Israel brings "Israel as a Jewish state" into question. Now it is quite possibly a muslim state. And quite possibly a muslim state following sharia law as many other muslim states do.

For a state to function these types of questions can't be up in the air.

Sure, in every society there's people with different ideas. But inundating a community with another group with very different values is throwing gas on the fire and introduces magnitudes more strife and difference.

The Quran is anti-dog? — Mikie

A few of the hadiths cite dogs as a source of ritual impurity.

In any case, I can bring up the 3am adhan or attitudes towards dogs but the main thing issue is political power and representation. E.g. You can have your nice little community of communists, but if that community gets inundated by a different community with different values there can very well end up being strife as both groups vye for power and influence. Diversity is fine and individuals of another group may be fine people, but collectively a challenge is posed with mass migration.

Benkei and I were discussing the right of return - a scenario in which some ~6 million palestinians would come to Israel.

That's right, and therefore claiming to be the messiah is not blasphemy. — Leontiskos

:up: There have been plenty of messianic claimants in Judaism, including some very colorful ones.

Hey Mikie, what do you think of the idea of a mosque being built next to your house? They'll blast calls to prayer 5x daily including at like 3am (don't worry, the times will shift.) Excited? Great! Embrace diversity.

Also, hope you're not a dog owner. They don't have the best reputation in Islamic texts so be careful.

I take it you mean Amy-Jill Levine. Her scholarship is solid. I read "The Historical Jesus in Context" and some interviews somewhere. Being raised in a Jewish household she was unencumbered by belief in Christian dogma. She did not have to struggle with the belief that Jesus is God. — Fooloso4

Yes, thank you. :lol:

Currently reading "the misunderstood Jew."

In the case of the gentile authors, however, it seems likely that the distinctions between men and gods was not so clear cut. — Fooloso4

Yes, and this is a great post by the way. Agree that Psalm 82 is a polytheistic holdover reflecting a very old tradition that pre-dates monotheism. But yes, when we speak of conceptions of divinity we should distinguish between how e.g. Jews use it and Greeks use it. According to the ancient Greeks, some mortals can gain divine status after death. In Judaism the messiah is not God. The messiah is no more "God" than you or I although he's certainly a very special person.

I've already answered this pages ago and how current Israeli blood has been diluted to such an extent that their claims to other areas in the world would be significantly stronger than to Israel. But even if we would grant the existence of that right then certainly the rights of recently displaced is much stronger.

Edit: moreover I don't recall Jews being prohibited from settling in Palestine. — Benkei

If we were to implement this internationally it would result in mass chaos. Even just in Israel it would be mass chaos. Israel would be Islamicized by a hostile population. The West can toy with such ideas but Israel does not have such a luxury.

I was in Israel around 10 years ago and I don't remember the route but I did go to Jerusalem. Very beautiful country.

You should explain why people's rights cannot be exercised. — Benkei

What about the Jewish right of return to Bethlehem? Jesus was born there. Or are you only concerned with "justice" for one side?

Where do these rights even come from?

Maybe ur right. Israel just needs to welcome the Palestinians with a giant hummus and falafel stand and everything will be gravy. /s

On a more serious note, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Consider traveling to Israel. Then you'll see why so much blood has been shed over it.

Right of return means millions of Palestinians coming to Israel. Israel can neither support such a thing nor does it bode well politically. There would be fighting in the streets.

If we didn't have Philo and co. we'd probably hear similar things about how no Jew (or "no true Jew") would embrace Platonism or blend it with Judaism. Indeed, Protestant scholars tried to make exactly this sort of argument as they struggled to dislodge Greek thought from their form of Christianity (which is quite difficult given its influence is all over the NT and clearly in some OT books, such as the Wisdom of Solomon). — Count Timothy von Icarus

Indeed. Hellenism was influential on Jewish thought in antiquity and several canonical books (especially those written in the second temple period) do contain Hellenistic themes and influences. The rabbis did disqualify some works from canon on the basis that they were essentially "too Greek", but it would impossible to purge all Greek influence from Jewish texts.

I may have missed something, but when I read the Jesus of the Gospels I mostly see him arguing Jewish Scripture, interpretation of the law (halaka), using Jewish methods of argumentation, Jewish parables, referencing Jewish liturgy etc. I don't see him trying to Hellenize the Jews. I don't see him discussing Plato with the Pharisees. Philo studied it as he was an Alexandrian and he was from the upper classes which had the time and resources to pursue these activities.

The view that Yahweh can be man is shared by no Jewish sect ever but I grant you that it is possible that his followers believed it. Elijah and Elisha also performed miracles including raising the dead. Then again, the rabbis (possibly?) accuse him of leading his followers to idolatry so who knows. Why would Peter deny him 3x if he believed Jesus to be God?

Don't you have a master's degree? Why do I need to explain this to you? Or maybe you're just messing with me.

Point being, from what are likely the very earliest Christian sources Christ is seen as divine. The argument of folks like Erhman, that there is "no way" first century Jews would have ever thought their leader was God is undercut by the fact that the earliest source we have clearly shows a first century Jews who very obviously thinks Christ is God and thinks this despite close contact with the Apostles who followed Christ. — Count Timothy von Icarus

The earliest Christian sources are maybe from the early 50s?

Ehrman says that shortly after J's execution/resurrection discussions of his divinity occur among his followers and that there are a range of views towards J in the early church. I don't see any evidence that his followers viewed him as God during his lifetime. Amy Jill-Levinson argues that Jesus was an observant Jew. After J's death and resurrection, yes - the view that he is divine wins out in the early church and becomes Christian dogma.

Once a Jew believes Jesus is divine is he essentially becomes a Christian. So yes the earliest Christian sources view J as divine... to be a Christian source is to view J as divine.

Wikipedia on the 2017 Hamas Charter:

In May 2017 Palestinian political and military organization Hamas unveiled A Document of General Principles and Policies (وثيقة المبادئ والسياسات العامة لحركة حماس), also referred to as the new or revised Hamas charter.[1][2] It accepted the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, i.e. comprising the West Bank and Gaza strip only,[3] on the condition that also the Palestinian refugees were allowed to return to their homes,[4] if it is clear this is the consensus of the Palestinians[5] ("a formula of national consensus"[6]); but at the same time this document strove for the "complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea",[2][6] and did not explicitly recognize Israel.[3]

The "right of return" results in the destruction of Israel. So no, Hamas does not strive for peace with Israel. For the millionth time, they seek to destroy it. As they always have.

BitconnectCarlos apparently thinks in terms of erasing Hamas entirely, except others will emerge, plus there are other neighbors (mentioned by Tzeentch). What about two states? — jorndoe

I would love to erase Hamas and establish a Palestinian leadership that is more amenable to peace with Israel. Then we could consider a two state solution if peace and trust can be established. Right now, two states is too risky because it would allow Hamas to import heavy weaponry and in turn massively destabilize the region.

driven by religious extremists on both sides.

Bibi is not a religious extremist. There are secular Jews who are right-wing and devout Jews who are not right-wing. I don't believe Zionism is inherently correlated to Jewish religiosity.

I don't think there's any truly secular force in palestinian society. Nor do I hold a favorable bias towards secular palestinians but I could be convinced otherwise if you have the data to back it up.

Matthew 5:39. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

I will never endorse this view. — Tarskian

I suppose the Muslim version of this claim might be "if anyone slaps on the right cheek, slap them back so hard that they don't dare ever slap you again." Now that would be more in line with human nature.

Your government openly postulates genocide and you live in a white supremacist nation so when the masked terrorist comes to your door remember to make it easy for them. You're in the oppressor group, after all.

How do you even measure evil vs. evil when you don't believe in objective morality? your argument has no leg to stand on.

Bibi's regime + settler movement = Hamas, etc. — 180 Proof

I stopped reading here.

You do not understand the historical aspect of this conflict. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood - an organization founded before the state of Israel that seeks to Islamicize the world. Islamic fundamentalism is much older than the state of Israel and cannot be blame on Bibi or West Bank "settlers" -- some of whom have roots older than Islam itself. It is the Islamic fundamentalists who are the settlers. You think Islam is indigenous to Palestine? Think again.

The crimes of Israel are multitude and worse in intensity and scale than the crimes of Hamas and have persisted for decades. — Benkei

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't know evil if it knocked on your door.

I'm serious. A masked terrorist with a machete could knock on your door ready to kill you and your family and we could still say "well the Netherlands/the West is far more evil in both intensity and scale then this little rag-tag terrorist group ready to kill you." And it would be true. You belong to the oppressor and the masked terrorist is the oppressed.

Nothing more pure than the newly-formed terrorist group ready to indiscriminately murder. They are much much less evil than the countries they oppose and they can resist how they like.

So only one of four doesn't want to commit suicide? Really? — ssu

Martyrs also include e.g. those who die fighting Israel with a rifle in hand and (I believe?) any civilian who is killed by Israel. Thus Hamas is utterly unconcerned with Palestinian civilian casualties -- why allow them refuge into terror tunnels when they can achieve Jannah?



Palestinian governments will not punish Palestinians for committing crimes against Israelis therefore Israeli settlers sometimes seek vigilante justice in the West Bank.

no, you call for the destruction of only some oppressors. — Benkei

if you want the destruction of all oppressors just call in the meteor. All states oppress.

I dare you to be consistent and voice the same about Israel

I would if Israel ever committed a 10/7 with the sole purpose of slaughtering & capturing & raping as many civilians as possible. Even in the darkest depths of WWII Jews never stooped to that. They never gleefully murdered innocent German civilians. But maybe in your reality they just gleefully ride around murdering Palestinians for no reason. :roll:

You're just a mean little man filled with hate. — Benkei

You hate both sides to this conflict; I only hate one. Or do you not hate Hamas? :brow:

to make yourself feel good for defending oppressors and murderers. — Benkei

No, I call for the complete destruction of the oppressors and murderers - i.e. Hamas.

what are you referring to specifically?

But if you think that every Palestinians craves to be a martyr, because the gates of heaven will open and (I forgot how many) virgins are there waiting for them, I would disagree. — ssu

I would also disagree that every Palestinian wants that but it wouldn't be particularly reassuring to find that e.g. only ~75% of them want that.

Wanting to be a martyr is, contextually speaking, not that radical. Christianity lionizes martyrdom. Islam does as well, and Palestine is a highly religious society. I wasn't able to find any polls on this exact question. But the shahid holds a high place within Palestinian society and Islam does claim perfect knowledge of the afterlife as revealed through the Qu'ran.

It's not insanity. According to the Palestinian cultural narrative, the Jews stole their land in '48 and they simply want it all back. Make it all Muslim land again. It's not that radical. It was Muslim land for centuries. Polls of Palestinians repeatedly reflect this attitude. The "occupation" is Israel (i.e. Jewish self-rule) itself.

Except during the Battle of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1944, Judaism did not encourage the Jews either to put up a fight. It was all too easy to mass transport them to the extermination camps. — Tarskian

I don't even think that it was Judaism per se that helped spark/encourage the Warsaw ghetto uprising. I just know that at that point the Jews were finally able to acquire weapons from the Polish resistance. Rates of firearm ownership among Jews in Eastern Europe was very low. There were a few uprisings at concentration camps but likely not so much due to Judaism as much as the knowledge that they'd be killed regardless and that they wanted to choose the manner of their death. Judaism tends to emphasize fighting bravely (and choosing your battles wisely) and also staying alive as opposed to telling its adherents that this life doesn't matter & only the next one does.

Some even relatively conservative Israelis do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause at certain points. IIRC Benny Morris was sympathetic to the first intifada, but not the second.

But we're talking history here not current events. No Israeli is imagining themselves as Hamas today going into the tunnels.

That's not saying anything. We'd have all probably been teenage Nazis in Nazi Germany assuming the right conditions.

That's personal psychology.

Oh of course - Hamas surely has no interest in ruling Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or Haifa. They're actually an enlightened lot who are glad to share the land with their Jewish neighbors. Who says Islam needs to rule? Certainly not Hamas. They embrace religious diversity.

Similarly communism is also the best system. It just wasn't carried out well. If only the transition to it was led by people like you who truly understand the word of Marx.

In their own making in the way that they've been on a losing side of a war with Israel, that is true. — ssu

Possibly connected, in some way, to their unflinching insistence on their (stronger) neighbor's destruction and replacement with Islamic rule. /s

Sorry, but Gaza is really an open air prison

A prison of their own making formed through their own fanatical commitment to destroying their stronger neighbor. The billions they've received in aid line the pockets of their leadership and go towards their underground terror tunnels.

I recal them saying that Gaza is an evil city. — ssu

That was right after 10/7. Bibi compared Hamas to Amalek, I remember that specifically. Honestly I'd say it's an apt comparison. It's ugly but I can't argue with truth.

Clearly sympathizes?

Israel also provides medical care for wounded Palestinians. And provides amnesty for LGBTQ Palestinians who are danger of being murdered by their government.

It doesn't make sense that Gaza is reliant on Israel for food. Can't they make their own? Same with water. It's not expensive to provide.

If they are truly supporters of Hamas, then they should at least have the proper flag:

They were out yesterday in NYC marching with this flag. Hamas and Hezbollah flags present at those rallies.

Yet if the question is that if they sympathize with the Palestinian people, it's the culture war bullshit to say then that they sympathize with Hamas.

Everybody sympathizes with the innocent Palestinians just as anyone ought to sympathize with the innocent. But sympathy is not the same as support. Israel clearly sympathizes with the Palestinians as they just conducted polio vaccines there.

It is as silly as the talk from leftists about Trump supporters the racist alt-right neonazis.

Yet some Trump supporters are alt-right racists. Alt-right racists, and dare I say even nazis, do tend to fall into the Trump camp. Yet not all Trump supporters are alt-racist racists. And on the left the hard left and Islamists will likely end up voting Harris or voting for Democrats.

But feel free to swim in it if you want. Yes, your future American leaders worship Hamas. How could they do anything else?

It's not that far-fetched. We already have members in Congress like Tlaib and Omar in that camp. They're careful with their words but essentially they fall on the hard anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian side.

I encourage you to read the anti-semitism report about Columbia University, one of America's most elite universities -- I'm convinced that we're no fundamentally different than we were in the 1930s. We like to think humanity has advanced and become more progressive/kinder but the veil is slowly being lifted as more and more Jews are assaulted just for being Jews.

the idea that the kingdom is within. — Fooloso4

I wasn't raised Christian, but I have read the Gospels and this is always how I've treated the "kingdom of heaven" primarily. Perhaps the kingdom of heaven indicates some external future state of affairs, but the far more relevant interpretation is that the kingdom of heaven is within us. "The kingdom of heaven is within" makes the kingdom of heaven parables personally applicable/relevant. That to me is one of the most interesting things about the gospels.