I highly recommend this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shame/201305/the-difference-between-guilt-and-shame — David Mo

That is one way to look at it, another is that "guilt" imposed internally, regardless of the social situation, and that shame involves feeling towards others. Hence, "guilt" is usually related to religion, while shame is not.
That is the distinction between Western "guilt culture" and Japanese "shame culture" that Ruth Benedict makes in her famous book "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword". Old, but still relevant imho.

Omniscience and free will is mutually incompatible. So take your pick.

ust one example country, Pakistan, to give you an indication of the interest in STEM fields amongst Muslims: — alcontali

Pakistan has a population of 200 million; of course there are universities.
Talking about this mythical elevated interest in STEM fields, can you tell us how many Nobel prizes in STEM fields have been one by muslims?

Muslims have no problems whatsoever with STEM fields. — alcontali

Really?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16258-how-to-stop-creationism-gaining-a-hold-in-islam/

I prophecy that Islamic scholars will keep thinking they are the wisest in their consensuses, but will feel sorrow as their world is left behind — Gregory

You are not a very prophet. Islam growing massively, and not because of some intellectual success, but because of the combination of demographics and Western political corretness.

You have a very poor epistemic understanding of what the term "knowledge" means. That is the source of your confusion. The underlying reason for that is that your stint in the liberal arts has totally confused you about what this term is all about. There is technically no knowledge in the liberal arts, because none of its beliefs can be justified. — alcontali

I do not know what you are waffling about about, and I suspect neither are you. I pointed out a numer of facts about islam, which you first denied and then declared you did not know. I pointed islamic scholars which first did not know and then declared are irrelevant. You accused me of not knowing islamic scripture and I pointed out I indeed read it. Then you declared only islamic scholare are are able to interpret islamic scriptures (something that you denied earlier).

You know nothing about me personally, yet you claimed I am Jewish (which I am not) or that I study liberal arts (which I do not). Now you are waffling about nuclear power plants.

Let is just say that II sure as hell would not want to rely on a nuclear power plant designed by someone with your, err, logical thinking abolity.

A psychologist would describe Islamic nations as distinct groups of sex addicted workaholics. — Gregory

Where do you get the "workaholics" from??

In Islam, the ulama (/ˈuːləˌmɑː/; Arabic: علماء‎ ʿUlamāʾ, singular عالِم ʿĀlim, "scholar", literally "the learned ones",[1] also spelled ulema; feminine: alimah [singular] and uluma [plural])[2] are the guardians, transmitters and interpreters of religious knowledge in Islam, including Islamic doctrine and law — Wikipedia on the Ulema

....and every time I have quoted an islamic scholar, you said you don´t know them and anyway in islam there is no scholarly authority.

Go figure.

You know absolutely nothing about the Islamic scriptures. — alcontali

Actually, I have read them all, plus plenty of interpretations by leading clerics (which you admitted to being completely ignorant of).

Religious law is a formal system of morality that rests on system-wide premises, i.e. its scriptures. — alcontali

Islamic scriptures are a wildly incoherent collection of oral transmissions. The only system-wide premise that you will find is "good is what is good for islam". So not sure what you want to enter in your model.

My argument against the resurrection as historical fact: there are miracles claims in all religions. Thats what a religion is. — Gregory

You should not generalize about "religion". There are very different ones out there.

I think that the christian religions should start using some sort of rigorously trained expert to interpret their moral code — Sir2u

Christians have managed to extract an enlightened, positive ethical system out their befuddled books. As is evidenced in the real world, by the progress of christian-based societies. I think you should leave well-enough alone.

It may work like that in the liberal arts, but it does not work like that in any serious STEM field. It also does not work like that in religious law. — alcontali

Religious ideology is not a "serious STEM field". It is mass psychology, and the masses of islamist fanatics out there in the real world do not know or care about your sophistry.

Well the old Testament has the Jews killing pregnant women by tearing out the fetus. — Gregory

Ah, the Old Testament. But those are old Jewish stories preceding Christianity by 3000 years or so, so I never understood how that is part of "Christianity".
But I concede the point. If you want to bash the Old Testament, go ahead. I understand it is full of blood and gore.

Religions like Christianity and Islam (as opposed to Indian religions) say that God is the lord of life and can order killings. — Gregory

Order killings? Are you sure of that? Afaics, Christianity includes the concept of sanctity of life. Islam, in contrast, does not.

Islam will have to demonstrate that their system truly clarifies moral issues and gives us more motivation to follow them — Gregory

Islam does very clearly classify moral issues and does give motivation to follow (brutal punishment on on one side and 72 virgins on the other....). However, the islamic moral system is not one that correponds to modern, enlightened, compassionate ethics.

As I see it, there are no such religious scholars who "carry various degrees of respect". Only what they say, can "carry various degree of respect". If their advisory syntactically entails from scripture then I will carefully accept what they say. Otherwise, I won't. — alcontali

Well, if you want to base your argument not on any statements by clerics but solely on the literal contents of the Koran, you end up with systems like Afghanistan under the Taliban and Syria under ISIS control. That is where literal, full-bore, 100% Koranic scripture is realized.

If that is what you want.... oh, and by they way, those place are also 100% cleansed of Jews, of course.

There is no Pope in Islam. — alcontali

I did not say anything about a pope. Why do you keep misquoting me?
However, I am sure you know that various clerics in the islamic world carry various degrees of respect.
Al-Quaradafi has an enormous influence in Sunni islam, just like Al Sistani has in Shia islam.

If you did not know that, check it yourself.

And when Al-Quaradafi praises the Nazi holocaust and hopes that muslims will continue the good work of mass-murdering Jews, yes that DOES carry weight,

Now go on and try to change the topic again.

No, no. It was carried out by Nazis. — alcontali

Carried out by Nazis, applauded by muslims, and also assisted by muslims. Read up on the Nazi muslim SS troups that the Al Husseini recruited, i.e. in Yugoslavia.

And Yussuf Al-Qaradafi is not just "a" random cleric, he is the spiritual head of the Muslim Brotherhood and massively influential in the (sunni) islamic world.

You keep evading and misleading, but I think I have made it abundantly clear why I find islam problematic

Natural disasters are punishment of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala for those people who are either disbelievers or cross His limits; — Natural disasters and calamities in light of Quran and Sunnah

You trying to change the topic. The holocaust was not as "natural disaster". It was carried out by Nazis and assisted by muslims. And in the eyes of the lead Sunni cleric, it was a good thing, and he hopes that Muslims will continue it: "Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers."

So what was that again about Nazism being incompatible with islam?

The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans on Europeans because of European ideology. — alcontali

What the heck is "European ideology"? Something you just made up?

As for the islamic view on the holocaust, the leading Sunni cleric confirms that it is Allas will:
"Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the Jews people who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them—even though they exaggerated this issue—he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them. Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers."
(Yusuf al-Qaradawi)

No, these European Jews were just supposed to stay in Europe. — alcontali

,,,,,and get murdered. Yep, very compassionate.

By the way, the term "Palestinian" simply means resident of Palestine. That includes Jews (the original inhabitants), Christians, Druzes, Muslims, and others. The Druzes, Christians and Jews have no problem with immigration of Jews, Only the Muslim Arabs have.
Your use of the term "Palestinians" to mean "muslim Arabs" is highly misleading.

I have posted two links for that. — alcontali

Yes, I answered that now. I too would "cooperate" with someone who gives me the choice to either a) flee or b) be murdered. I do not think from that you can conclude I am friends with the thug who gives me the choice.

But then again, it is not as if the Zionists weren't good friends with the Gestapo and the SS either: — alcontali

Ah, sorry I get now what you are referring to. Yes, the Gestapo and SS were originally ordered to facilitate Jewish deportation to the historical Jewish homeland in the British Mandate of Palestine, while the Mufti of Jerusame and muslim clerics in general preferred the mass murder of Jews, that is correct.
However, you get from that to deny that Nazism and Islam do not agree in their hatred of Jews is not clear from me. The writing and statements are quite clear.

But then again, it is not as if the Zionists weren't good friends with the Gestapo and the SS either: — alcontali

Where do you get that from? Any source for this truly bizarre idea?

Really? I dont think he is trolling. His response is pretty typical for what I get from muslim zealots.

Youre being trolled dude. — DingoJones

Really? By who? It is hard to tell these days. I.e. when I turn on the TV and see the talking heads at CNN, I really can´t tell if I these people are serious or just have a great time trolling everyone.

You're a sun worshipper and I prefer the moon. — Gregory

You do realize that the moon is the islamic symbol, meant to replace the cross, don`t you?

As I have mentioned earlier, the holocaust could simply not have taken place in the Middle East or in any other Muslim-majority country because the Nazi policy of die Endlösung der Jüdenfrage is in violation of a long list of legal clauses in the Quran. — alcontali

Really now? You do realize that Saudi Arabia and Gaza Strip are 100% free of Jews ("judenrein" as Hitler would have called it), and in all other Arab muslim countries, the few remaining Jews are living under discriminatory Dhimmi conditions. What was that again about "apartheid"?

Also, what does your "long list of legal clauses in the Qoran" say about the Armenian genocide, carried out by the Ottoman empire, which quite rivals the Nazi holocaust?

For a starters, an alim acting in the capacity of mufti is supposed to produce religious advisories that are syntactic entailments from scripture. None of what the Mufti of Jerusalem wrote, referred to scripture in any fashion, let alone, syntactically entailed from scripture. — alcontali

So now you are bashing Al Al Husseini? I would agree he is worthy bashing (just as his friend Adolf Hitler is), but you are pretty alone in that assessment. Husseini is a well respected cleric and went on to be come teacher of Hassan Al Banna, who founded the Muslim Brotherhood, the most powerful and influential Sunni islamist organization today.

Well, I am glad you are distancing yourself from the Muslim Brotherhood, but you are also distancing yourself from islamic teaching then.

You are saying that the Jews "might actually have been safer" with people whom you portray as being full of "hatred of Jews".
If that view is not contradictory, then I really don't know anymore what is. — alcontali

No, I did not talk about "people". I talked about the ideology, just like the Mufti of Jerusalem did.
Try to argue without misquoting people.

What do you think about Mein Kampf being published as reading material on islamic websites?

I rest my case. — alcontali

What case?? I never said that Jews where never in history persecuted by others than nazis and muslims. That is a strawman.
That does not change the fact that nazi and islamic have a great affinity. As incidentally, many of co-religionists quite openly admit. Why do you think you find Mein Kampf on islamic websites like this? Because the islamists so much disagree with Nazism??

http://islam-radio.net//historia/hitler/mkampf/pdf/eng.pdf

Your opinion is not even necessarily shared by other Jews. If they expected to be mishandled by the Muslims, why did the Sephardi Jews flee to the Muslim Ottoman Empire? — alcontali

LOL, since when am I Jewish? That is news to me. Yes, Jews were persecuted by various rulers in the Middle ages, and they might actually have been relatively safer in the Ottoman empire as Dhimmis in the Millet system. That does not mean they were not discriminated there.

None of this invalidates the similarity between islam and nazism, for example in the rabid antisemitism, which you (unsurprisingly) also express here.

It is perfectly relevant to the uncanny similarity between Zionism and Nazism. — alcontali

I do not see that. "Zionism" simply refers to the concept of a Jewish state. It is not a political system inn itself, it certainly does not resemble Nazism, since the Nazis wanted to erase the jews.

It is not part of Islamic doctrine. — alcontali

It absolute is, which everybody who has read the Korann and Haddiths knows, and which islamist leaders have clearly stated
.

at the Zionist apartheidsstate of Israel fundamentally shares with Nazism, it is their well-attested racism. — alcontali

Whatever Israel does or does not do is irrelevant to the similarity between islam and nazism, which I was pointing out to you.
Has it ever occurred to you that the hysterical hatred of Israel by the muslim world is precisely because the hatred of Jews is part of islamic doctrine?

You very well know that any elusive connection between Islam and Nazism is much more of a stretch than between Zionism and Nazism. — alcontali

No, I do not know that, and the claim is quite absurd. Zionism is the claim for a territory for Jews. Nazism is a totalitarian ideologys that includes a rabid hatred of Jews, which it shares with islam (as Ali Al Husseini pointed out).

Racism is not part of Islam, while it is the core foundation of Nazism and Zionism. — alcontali

Well, that depends how you define "racism". The Koran is chock-full of hate against Jews, something it shares with Nazism. That why Al Husseini called it gingerly "The relationship to the Jews." The Nazi Jew hatred is probably founded in Hitlers crazy race theory, while the islamic Jew-hatred is based on the scripture.
The result is the same, however, which is why we have the similarity.

Well, apparently he was lying in bed with the devil for reasons of political expediency, assuming that the end would justify the means. — alcontali

No, the mufti explained clearly why he like Nazism, and that affinity is inherent in islam and continues today. Consider that the holocaust is widely considered Allah`s good work, that muslims should continue today. So, no Faustian pact here, but congruent ideologies.

Islam is the meaning some people find given to them and which they impose on themselves and others within this self-contained universe. — Gregory

That is the problem right there. I have no issue with "religion", in fact I tend to think having a religion is healthy for a societ. The problem with islam is that it is a "poligion", a political ideology with a religious cover, complete with political system and legal system --- and not a political and legal system that any person who looks at it objectively would want to live under.

Can islam be stripped of its Sharia and political ambitions and turned into a pure religion? That is an open question. Majid Navas thinks so, other like Bassam Tibi are sceptical.

In fact, at that point in time, the Nazis were much more interested in collaborating with Zionist organizations than with the Mufti. — alcontali

You are not a historian, and your selected Wikipedia snippets do not change the ideologial similarities between Islam and Nazism, as outlined by Ali Al Husseini. The Mufti was also busy recruiting Islamic Nazi SS regiments, in particular in Yugoslavia, who were busy murdering Christians and opponents of the Nazis. The holocaust is praised islamist worldwide today, if you are unaware of that, good for you, but it does not change the reality.

Who called the United States "awful"? I certainly didn't. — Xtrix

I just checked, and no it was not you. I was commenting on another posters message. So why do butt in, and in such rude manner?
You might want to take a walk, take a deep breath, and get all that adrenaline out of your system, rather than banging on the keyboard.