Comments

  • A new home for TPF
    Someone who is really a well resourced predator would have the sophistication and accomplices to carry out such a crime without creating any evidence that is what is happening. They will come to court as simply country folk with good cause and better reputations.

    Such an actor could make a company to make a company to make a company to, all in different countries, just to sue Jamal.
    boethius

    I mean, I'd probably consider agreeing with @Hanover at this point.

    The scenario you're describing is like something out of an international spy movie—almost. :smirk:

    No one person could ever really be as "invulnerable" to the level of hypothetical you describe, I'd wager. (A wealthy and well-oiled quasi-criminal organization, let alone an entire government who makes it their waking purpose to come after one man, it'd be much easier just to buy him out, I'd figure)

    The question I had initially the moment I first read the topic of a new forum was: "Why?" Naturally he answers "why" in the post, one of the primary reasons being legal safety/resilience followed by reliance on a larger, more successful forum software company (Plush doesn't update or really "do" anything these days and hasn't for quite some time). I don't know much about OSA compliance or UK data/Internet laws in general (other than they're pretty strict and to some people unfair/possibly Constitutionally unsound), but, do you think his main reasons in the first post of this thread are not as pertinent or vital to a continued and secure operation of TPF as he attributes them to be? :chin:
  • A new home for TPF
    3. Harassment by the government. Maybe someone posts on the forum something about some minister that minister finds out about (as they obsessively police their online mentions) and then uses their government power to go after your business and you yourself: audits, hate speech, money laundering, whatever.boethius

    Wouldn't that be like, a huge deal, turning @Jamal into a celebrity overnight and elevating this quiet little corner of the Internet into something anyone here wouldn't ever imagine in their wildest dreams? He would be the ultimate "every man" martyr everybody and their grandma would get behind—point being, it would make the elected official look bad which is not in any elected official's MO. No?

    However, if the plaintiff can force you to spend money then they can just keep doing that until you're broke.boethius

    Aren't there equal safeguards against this blatant and codified form of abuse of the legal system? Frivolous lawsuits, "lawfare", etc?
  • A new home for TPF
    As for liability, having limited liability is not written in stone.

    If you get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds the winning party could then argue that it was not lawful to create that kind of liability as a small business to shield yourself from the legal consequences of your reckless speech actions and therefore you should be held personally liable.
    boethius

    I think his point was, based on his understanding, which I assume to be accurate, OSA compliance basically protects a person from all of that, assuming they abide by its guidelines, which require ability to moderate and delete offending content. It's not rational to attribute a site owner as somehow being able to know what unknown random persons they didn't raise who happened to sign up and begin using their publicly-available site say (freedom of religion is freedom of belief, which is tied to ability to speak such belief in the form of speech, otherwise that's a proxy violation of freedom of religion) before they say it, only that if it is deemed offensive or problematic that it may be removed in a timely and permanent manner.

    As it stands now, Jamal is a UK citizen open to anyone who is also a UK citizen to take him to court, if they have the wherewithal, of course. If I, as a nobody, notice offensive or extreme content, I would simply contact the hosting provider. And yes, it does vary on jurisdiction, precisely as you say. Though what is interesting is this is "hosted" software (as will the new forum be, presumably) meaning it depends on not only where those servers are located but how experienced (or inclined toward the particular site owner or free speech in general) the forum company that provides the software and hosting, which per basically all forum software licensing agreements it can terminate the forum "owner's" license or ability to use it at an any time for any reason, mind you. This is the key difference between the current and future dynamic versus if Jamal would have coded a forum software himself from the ground up

    As an aside: What would stop me from filing a request, right now as things are, to either the forum company or if this were actually privately-hosted, the hosting company and essentially accomplishing the same thing (getting the site shut down or forced to remove offending content or otherwise fundamentally changing how it operates?

    That said, you seem to know your stuff. Such wisdom is best heeded, perhaps? :smile:
  • A new home for TPF


    Interesting! I also feel it relevant to note TPF does, apparently, have its share of enemies. Not really "enemies" of the forum itself (that would be weird) but people who have axes to grind toward one or more high-ranking staff members and would consider as you say "blowing the whistle" for things that they likely could introduce themself or otherwise would reasonably show up organically either way.

    The staff generally seems left-leaning as it is, people who tend to post with assertions or implications that could be read as "offensive" are generally lopped in under "low quality posts" and don't tend to proliferate here for that reason alongside others. There are intelligent people who have a history of intelligent (acceptable) posts that do express beliefs that others may find not only disagreeable but perhaps offensive and inappropriate, but I can count them on a single hand. Point being, it seems the "UK authorities" and general TPF staff sentiment are more or less on the same page as far as what should be allowed and what shouldn't. But you never know. You never know. Good looking out! :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    Are you asking about Marco?

    He's an annoying fucking twat, as elucidated with exceptional eloquence here.
    Michael

    So, he's just a guy, one out of 8 billion mind you, nothing special, save for the fact, he that did something some odd years ago nobody else seems to recall, that annoyed you and a few others.

    I wasn't there, I don't know, forgive me if that comes off as callous or discounting of your ability to perceive right and wrong or goodness and virtue in men, I just know nothing of the guy beyond the few sporadic mentions of his and a few other unspeakables here, and your comment, seeing as you're a moderator, piqued my interest, is all.

    I will read the topic you linked to now in full, every comment, specifically those who are staff or who otherwise seemed to have been here a while to see what type of "larger story" or "picture" one can reasonably ascertain.

    I thank you personally for your response and suggest perhaps, due to my nagging curiosity, might have been responsible in leading this topic slightly off topic. This was not intentional. I apologize, and honestly thank you for indulging in my juvenile curiosity, and will direct any other further comment or inquiry of the matter to you in a private message if I feel the need to. (Which I likely won't)

    While, as I'm sure you may be able to gather, your "Sleeping Beauty" thread may be above my current level of understanding (just a wee bit over my head), I look forward to engaging with you in it in the not too distant future. :smile:
  • A new home for TPF
    Some of us had concerns about him, and the future of the forum, so Jamal made this place and we moved over.Michael

    I recall hearing enough about "the old place" so as to form a relevant and accurate enough (albeit understandably underlying-ly ignorant) narrative, yes,

    So someone uninformed, and forgive my ignorance, a man made less than ideal decisions and temporary (albeit unnecessary) sufferings or hardships were placed on many folk at the time. Yet a new land was formed and thus all passed or alleged and perceived hardships should no longer hold any meaning.

    So, why don't we, that is to say all who were involved see this as a happy ending, per se?

    Forgiveness is not an acceptance of past wrongs but rather an acknowledgement that a better future not only can but has been obtained. There will always be people who gain power who use said temporary transient position unwisely. This is expected, nay, a requirement for the free and at times tumultuous world in which we live.

    I don't see how the memory of this man is not all but water under the proverbial bridge. What have you to fear in the present day and age as far as this person is concerned?
  • A new home for TPF
    If Marco comes back I may have to burn the place to the ground.Michael

    See this is why places like this, at least in the Lounge, should have a topic or something where past "legends" (or villains to some) can have their stories told unbiased from both sides of the proverbial fire.

    Don't you ever go to a new place and wonder what the stories, tales, and legends of the locals are? What the people who actually made a place what it is today have to say and what they feel and as a result what the true zeitgeist of a place is beyond friendly smiles and pleasantries? The blood, sweat, and tears behind the benches and walls we pass by every day without batting an eye or giving a second thought toward really are and what they represent to those who have seen and lived times we ourselves have not?

    I've been here for 5 years. I've seen the name "Porat" come up a few times, but with such intensity and quiet understanding between those who seem to know, it's... curious. Meanwhile, myself and new persons just view this as almost a mental tic or idiosyncrasy from otherwise respected posters because, it just doesn't make any sense where the rage or discontent comes from. It demands an explanation. And those who are free from fear due to being unbiased or otherwise not "in the wrong" have no reason for all darkness and secrets to become light and openly discussed.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Calling someone naive is calling someone incorrect or ignorant of things you deem yourself as being correct or knowledgeable of or about. — Outlander


    No doubt, but then you added:

    You're calling them wrong, essentially, which is putting into question not just every single act or non-act they've ever engaged in or disengaged in in the entirety of their life, but their entire life worth altogether (ie. "the meaning of life" itself). — Outlander


    Which is completely nonsensical.
    Tzeentch

    Intelligent beings have a habit to be inclined to correct themself when given reason to. Social intelligent beings consider public opinion as a valid reason due to the fact group or family oriented societies are the only ones that have survived to this day and age. Sure, the average person shakes off the average passing comment, but that doesn't change the nature of the opinion the mind has a natural tendency to consider, at least for a moment and perhaps unconsciously, as a possible fact.

    At this point we're just calling science nonsense. Which I can respect, for those who provide sufficient reason, which you have yet to.

    Whether your beliefs and judgements proliferate themself in your mind due to resiliency, or perhaps ignorance, they nonetheless do independent of a larger fact or reason, not including cognitive bias, the brain likes to be right and will see things it enjoys (pattern recognition) to support this homeostasis. However, this is simply not relevant when it comes to actual analysis of the world outside our own head.

    This means you find the normal pattern of possible evidence introduced into a situation or dynamic followed by reasonable analysis and consideration of such as "completely nonsensical" . This is the thought process of dogmatist. Can you not step outside your personal sphere (no matter how many people echo or embrace it, or how valuable it seems, or possibly may actually be to, you) for a moment to see the larger picture that the majority of people hold and follow?
  • Are humans by nature evil
    "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." ~Steven Weinberg180 Proof

    Not quite. All it takes is making someone believe something—anything—that results in dehumanization (or dehumanization by proxy ie. elevation of one's self over others, which per human ego and evolutionary confidence is an easy, almost natural ingrained dynamic of the human experience to appeal to). Very easy. Natural, even, per our scientifically recognized "own race" bias. Sure, most beliefs that have profound effect incorporate some idea of a higher power, otherwise it's just one man's opinion in a sea of innumerable others. There are few people on Earth who at the end of the day aren't looking out for number one first and foremost. If it comes down to your kid or a stranger's kid getting fed, let's not kid ourselves as to who you're going to act toward getting fed, irrespective of gods, religion, and who's food it "rightfully" is or should be.
  • A new home for TPF
    The one big improvement I could make to the archive is to include the categories.Jamal

    I'll give you one hint.

    To retrieve the category automatically from the HTML content of the topic URL, use this Regular Expression (which I'm sure Perl supports):

    Reveal
    <li class="(?:.+?) Active"><strong><a href="(.+?)">(.+?)</a></strong></li>
    


    Item #1 will of course contain the fully matched string, Item #2 will contain the URL structure (ie. "/categories/1/general-philosophy") and, the magic Item #3 will contain the Category Name (ie. "General Philosophy").

    Now all you have to do is fetch and retrieve 13,000 webpages and sort through them. Not as daunting as it might sound, but you should know that. :smile:

    (Unless of course the "dump" or rawest form of database storage you can access has some field or notation for category, in which case it'd be even easier!)
  • A new home for TPF
    OK, I'll leave them. I've found a decent compromise, which is that they won't be indexed by search engines but anyone can visit those pages, given the URLs (or find them from the archive's search page or whatever).Jamal

    Or, you can just copy and paste them (along with relevant information such as the particular contest name and type, date of publication, user vote data, and author, if available) to a new, locked read-only sub forum on the upcoming new site? Unless the comments or reviews are of such dire importance. :snicker:

    Or would that result in some sort of unfortunate gray area as far as the legal standards and obligations you're seeking to meet and fulfill are concerned? :chin:

    If so, perhaps there can be a further compromise such as a single pinned thread in some sub forum that links every single short story/poem/literature from every competition that links to its respective content on the archive site? Or would even that be disallowed?
  • A new home for TPF
    Using ChatGPT to do in an hour more than I could have done in a week, I managed to turn a dump of my posts from Jamal's archive into a useable database then a searchable local web page. Still pretty basic but at least I will have access to this stuff locally. Somewhat satisfying.Banno

    Yeah. Most people can do that too. I have a "dump" of everything I've ever said, thought, or experienced in a usable database I can search and access as well. It's called my brain. :lol:

    I kid, of course. Always happy to see a rare casual "personal" post from one of TPF's hardest hitters who makes this site what it is. Always mystifying and enlightening, yet never concealing or pompous. Well, not terribly often, at least. :razz: Post onward, as if the fate of humanity depends on it. It just very well may. :gasp:
  • A new home for TPF
    As I recall, PF was bought by somebody for more than it was worth, but then almost immediately abandoned by its new ownernoAxioms

    That's... one way to look at events. For those who see beyond the mortal eye, who become aware to what the real battles are, it's clear. Free thinkers tend to be.. problematic, shall we say.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Complete nonsense. I'm doing nothing of the sort.Tzeentch

    But it was you yourself who already established these people who disagree or otherwise think differently than you are "ignorant" or "inexperienced" AKA "naive". You can't backtrack or pivot in a way that undoes your main argument. Painting one's self into a corner is part of life, we all do at one point or another. But stepping onto said paint (your argument), then walking into clear hallways (my argument), then acting like your tracks aren't clear as day (the inconsistencies of your argument) is a whole different animal one doesn't need to invoke upon one's self. Introspection, self-reflection is what normal people do, not only when proven (or otherwise told they might be) wrong. Is this natural part of the human experience really so unknown or unfathomable to you?

    Calling someone naive is calling someone incorrect or ignorant of things you deem yourself as being correct or knowledgeable of or about. This is but the simple definition of the term.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Calling people naive isn't demonizing them.Tzeentch

    Is that not the same thing to naive people? If they were perfectly in line with (perhaps what is but your view of) rationality there would be no disagreement or issue on your end now would there?

    You're calling them wrong, essentially, which is putting into question not just every single act or non-act they've ever engaged in or disengaged in in the entirety of their life, but their entire life worth altogether (ie. "the meaning of life" itself). That's going to result in an equal if not greater reaction or response than if you intentionally set out to do so as your only prerogative.

    It's a profound thing to force someone to question. One's results may vary. Particularly if one is outnumbered by a naive populous. Surely you've processed such base and highly likely future outcomes yourself, yes?
  • A new home for TPF
    Yeah, I was just thinking about that. The comment URLs on this site don't contain the dicussion IDs, so I can't just use a basic mapping. But I don't want to include an explicit individual redirect for every one of the million or whatever comments.Jamal

    You may be able to use something like this:

    An .htaccess file redirecting comment link sytnax to a web script:
    Reveal
    RewriteEngine on
    RewriteRule ^discussion/comment/([0-9]{7})/?$ jamals-script.php?commentID=$1
    


    A web script (of any language) that attempts to locate a corresponding discussion based on a given comment ID:
    Reveal
    $commentID = $_GET['commentID'];
    
    if ( preg_match( '{^([0-9]{7})$}', $commentID, $matches ) )
    {
        // comment ID is a 7-digit numeric string
        if ( $friendlyURL = searchDatabaseForPostID( $commentID ) )
        {
            // assuming the above function returns the relevant friendly URL segment or FALSE if not found (ie. "1234567-friendly-title-here")
            header( 'https://tpfarchive.com/discussions/' . $friendlyURL . '.html#comment-' . $commentID;
            die;
    
            // or, simply read and print out the intended target (perhaps add a javascript function to let the page "jump" to the given comment, similar to how Plush operates currently) up to you!
            // $page = file_get_contents( 'https://tpfarchive.com/discussions/' . $friendlyURL . '.html?jumpToComment=' . $commentID );
            // echo $page; // presuming you add a special JS bit when "jumpToComment" URL var is detected, if a user has javascript enabled, the end page shows to the browser as the original comment URL but is actually the contents of the above "file_get_contents" request. this may be desired or to be avoided based on user preference. you can even edit the html post-retrieval and throw in a one line javascript bit in the <header> tag yourself before displaying to the user
            // die;
        }
    }
    
    // if we are here either the comment ID was not valid (7 digits) or the comment ID was not found
    header( $_SERVER['SERVER_PROTOCOL'] . ' 404 Not Found', true, 404);
    include( '404.php' ); // or simple print a 5 line 404 html page
    die;
    
    // or, simply redirect to default 404 page
    // header( 'https://tpfarchive.com/notfound' );
    


    (untested psuedo-code.. but I am involved in this line of work presently, so I'd be hard pressed to find out it's non-functional..)
  • A new home for TPF
    All discussion URLs, i.e., all links to specific discussions/threads/OPs from the old site (this one), will be redirected to the relevant pages of the archive. This means threads which are indexed on Google and linked to from other sites will not leave a trail of broken links behind them. I'm not sure if it's worth doing this for individual comments too.Jamal

    Ah, beautiful. Yes I figured the discussion syntax is quite easy to create a redirect for. Looks like a basic static 301.

    The comments would be interesting since they do not contain any part of the discussion URL. This would mean having the comment ID fed to a script that pulls up the discussion ID and then redirects the user to the relevant discussion URL prefixed with a hash anchor containing the comment ID. Preferably also sending a 301 Moved Permanently header. Provided you or another staff member created the archive site from scratch (not using a pre-boxed framework or library) your knowledge in such fields seems sufficient enough to do so easily (and most importantly: properly or safely). :smile:

    Edit: I notice Plush forum discussion links seem to make use of "friendly URLs" containing the title or a signifcant part of the title in the URL link. Is this done dynamically or is there a data entry alongside the discussion ID containing the final URL fragment (ie. "16281-a-new-home-for-tpf.html")? I suppose it doesn't matter as long as you have all 13,000 final URLs in a list that can be easily indexed and retrieved.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Your naive empathy is not a virtue.Tzeentch

    And naivety is no intentional offense. Which means it is not an unreasonable position to hold. So, how will you reach those who are naturally compassionate without ostracizing yourself by attempting to demonize people who only want what's best for those around them and of course the world?
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Again, I'm not interested in sob stories.Tzeentch

    That said there's 8 billion people with 8 billion interests who you have no say over whatsoever, so. Not seeing the relevance of your lone opinion as far as anything relevant to the real world and actions in it going forward. But yeah, thanks for sharing. Makes the community even more tight-knit to know our personal preferences such as favorite recipes, colors, and other little personal interests (or non-interests).

    I'm not sure if one giving a factual account of dire, human circumstances the majority of people can relate to and sympathize with a title of "sob story" is supposed to remove or lessen the legitimacy or relevance of the underlying facts that constitute a given situation—or convince rational people (who don't have an unmistakably medically-deficient and reduced capability to understand empathy or human emotion)—of anything. It doesn't, by the way. :smile:
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    It has not. The main character of Breaking Bad is obviously a "hardcore criminal", and this was the subject from the very beginning.Tzeentch

    Ah, there we are. I had only joined in after the following page where I responded to your sentiment that in fact had no such mention of any "character" or TV series but only the general concept of drug dealers.

    Jolly good to have cleared this up. Funny how these little misunderstandings come about organically and on their own. Another victory for intelligent discourse and rationale. Cheers. :party:
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Showing understanding and leniency towards hardcore criminals on account of them being "large, violent, dangerous children" is the sympathy route.

    Why choose sympathy for them over sympathy for their many victims?
    Tzeentch

    Perhaps one shouldn't. But now the subject matter has shifted. We are now talking about hardcore criminals whereas before one might consider just another dumb kid who's never even been in a fight who got caught up with the wrong crowd—or perhaps racked up too much of a debt with people you don't want to owe money to or otherwise "has to" lest something very bad happen—as one of these "hardcore criminal" drug dealers you profess to know all there is to know about. This is the disconnect between your apparent sentiment and that of an average person. You presume to know things which you have no way of knowing. Why?
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    Are you saying that criminals are essentially subhumans I ought not judge on the same basis as I would ordinary people?Tzeentch

    There are few people selling drugs who—if they would make as much money selling drugs doing something legal with around the same level of time and energy spent—would still be selling drugs.

    This is not to suggest that these are all moral people who toss and turn at night struggling to come to terms with a life they despise yet are forced to live in order to survive, of course not. They like the easy money and likely view the world as a dog-eat-dog place. They don't want their clients to die, but they certainly want their money, and if a man can't go through life and conduct himself like an adult with willpower, that's nobody's fault but his own. The world is a tough place and nobody is going to hold your hand through life. This is the extent to which the average person (criminal or not) tends to "think" about "the world" and anything beyond nominal, trivial, personally-relevant everyday topics.

    There's a kind of philosophical paradigm I can't recall right now. Judging by the intent of an action versus judging by the outcome (end result) of an action. If I give a homeless guy $500 and a place to stay so he can turn his life around, and he instead buys a gun with it and goes on a shooting spree, am I just as guilty as If I had literally handed him a gun and drove him to a place he asked to be driven to after telling me he "wants to shoot some people"? According to some people, yes, yes I am.

    Bad example. A better example (or at least comparative scenario) would be if I was the person responsible for introducing this woman to the fish she consumed, that she never would have consumed otherwise, that resulted in the amputation of all four of her limbs. Any reasonable person would consider the chain of effects a horrible, one-in-several-million freak accident and perhaps spend as much time consoling me as they would the victim! Again, to some people—and they point to a valid reality and chain of events—if I would have just minded my business, perhaps by being stingy and not giving anyone any gifts, the woman would be fully mobile today. It's true, after all. But is that really fair? Most people would think not.

    To answer your question: In my view, most young adults are like children. Large, violent, dangerous children. They don't really know what it is they're doing, at least, the things they do and the resulting consequences of such doesn't mean to them what it means to someone more intellectually-inclined. They know right from wrong, but in an unrefined, rudimentary sort of way. They have a grasp of it, an idea of an idea, per se, not unlike a young child in grade school when it comes to algebra. What's not important is whether the person is smart, dull, a literal child, or a fully grown adult. What's important is bad actions are stopped, equally, and that the punishment (if any) is proportional to the capacity of the individual to understand why what they did was wrong. We don't execute dangerous mentally ill people even if they have killed before. But that doesn't mean we do nothing and let them roam about unimpeded.

    Remember, alcohol is just as dangerous as many drugs. It can be addictive, it can be harmful, it can turn a person into a raging out of control danger to themself and others, it can kill a person and even result in the deaths of many persons, directly or indirectly. Should we go around yanking young supermarket clerks, bartenders, and liquor store staff off the streets and placing them all in some deep dark hole somewhere? I don't think so. And neither do you. :up:
  • Disproving solipsism
    Anglo-American philosophy has been stranded for some time in an attempted pivot away from Cartesian dualism. The OP is pestering the issue anew.

    You could probably find a forum focused on welding if the OP question seems like a waste of your time. :grin:
    frank

    I find most people who become entrapped in the belief that "nothing is real" that is to say "other people aren't real" do not appreciate the philosophical depths of true solipsism and are simply struggling with something quite non-philosophical and dangerous to themselves and those around them, is all.

    It's a fine topic. For the few whom it actually applies to.

    There is a huge and mighty choice between solipsism and idealism and choosing to dip your feet into the real world.Colo Millz

    This seems to disregard the main tenets of solipsism. It's not a "choice." It's literally the real world. That is to say, what you, or to your credit, any normal person would consider "dipping [their] feet into the real world" is doing the exact opposite. It's derived from a tale in Greek mythology (or perhaps the mythology was derived from an actual worldview) where a mortal is damned to live an eternity alone, all while thinking he's in a world full of innumerable other persons, thus making it an ever more vindictive punishment than if he was perceptively alone and sure of his or her fate. Again, it's a line of thought best avoided altogether. Particularly for those susceptible to the wills and minds of others.

    Also, @frank this is what I'm talking about. Most people who believe "other people aren't real" (or sure, the deeper tenet that is, nothing except myself and my thoughts can be "proven" as real) really don't understand anything about the deeper philosophy, only the immediate descriptor (or in my view, symptom).
  • Disproving solipsism
    Isn't this one of those things that—while seemingly deep—actually has no effect at all? Like, what if there really is a Firmament above Earth? Are you reasonably, in your lifetime, ever going to be rich enough or permitted by a government to leave the atmosphere and colonize another planet? No? Then why worry about it? What does any of it matter? "Oh it's just such a profound difference between what I thought was reality versus what it actually is!" Oh please. Don't give me that. No it's not. This is basically the same thing as the "monster under the bed that disappears every time you check but only for as long as you're checking" argument. What if your actually the legitimate heir to the throne of England? No one will believe you. And thus, nothing will come of it. So, a non-issue remains exactly that. A non-issue. Save for those who have an abundance of such, I'd wager. :smirk:
  • A new home for TPF
    It's helpful for identifying trolls.frank

    Which isn't relevant in enlightened communities such as TPF. They don't exist here. It's either too "boring", niche, and "slow", among other things, the main thing being the "customer base" (ie. intelligent people don't contribute to the feedback loop that people looking to provoke negative reactions online look for. There's nothing for people like that here. This would be akin to setting up a bear trap in the suburbs. There's just no legitimate use or reason to.)

    This is where your "normal operating standards" (that are very useful in, again, normal places) don't have a place in intellectual spaces that explore free thought. All it would do is determine unpopular viewpoints, and give false credence that something unpopular is inherently bad. Judging a book by it's cover. I doubt anybody here who's a significant contributor would choose to read or ignore a post based on "likes" or "dislikes". And I would hope the vain pettiness that many people feel in "disliking" a view instead of logically refuting it (often due to lack of ability to) is non-existent for the majority of posters here.

    Though I'm disinclined to (biased against) "likes" and dislikes" (it just seems like it's everywhere and taking over everything online), I can understand upvotes. Some people like to reply to a post they agree with with things like " :up: " or " :fire: ", which doesn't bother me. It's a message board at the end of the day, after all. But if staff wanted to cut down on simple posts that work out to "I agree" or "I disagree (but can't or won't explain why)" and view likes/dislikes as a better option than that's all there is to it I guess.
  • Ideological Evil
    No. I am not arguing that delusion is an issue. I said reason and destiny. Not madness and destiny.Tom Storm

    You also said "those who think" they have reason and destiny on their side. Which is precisely who I was referring to when I referenced "self-confidence" (or possibly self-delusion). Essentially, we all think we're unique, in some ways. That we have purpose and our actions are justified by our beliefs. No? Is this not the breeding grounds for the inevitable state of mind you describe?

    It's best not to presume what others here know or don't know about themselves on a forum.Tom Storm

    That's correct. However I give people the respect and benefit of the doubt to assume they post honestly and are describing their worldview and sentiments to the best of their ability. Analyses in line with generally-accepted psychology and proven patterns of human behavior is just one step above mere presumption. Meaning, if someone expresses a sentiment of how "all roads are two lanes", this would lead an observer to conclude said individual is ignorant of the existence of freeways. Maybe they're not. But if one is expressing their view of the world and how they see it honestly and to the best of their ability, it's a fair presumption analysis.

    That said, I'm not sure what your point is.Tom Storm

    Just that it takes two to tango. People, especially desperate people, can be led to believe anything. If people were more educated, or yes, perhaps just intrinsically better than how they are, those leaders who ended up committing crimes against humanity and other human rights abuses (who were not born into cemented power and so had to become such from the ground up, of course) never would have been anything more but unknown figures. The average person likes things that are not conducive to enlightened societies (primal pleasures, violence, and conflict) more than things that are (highly cultured entertainment, operas, plays, higher learning, and such). It's not that these preferences are the mark of an evil majority, it's just that the former is "easier to understand" and therefore one who peddles the former is more likely to be taken seriously and elevated to power or social worth than one who truly believes in the latter.

    In a sentence: it's not that a person who "thinks they have (whatever it may be) on their side" that's dangerous, it's the fact that the majority is easily convinced of anything so long as you push the right buttons. As far as believing in one's self (having "reason" or "destiny" on "one's side"), sure, hard work tends to pay off. Dedication tends to result in, well, results. "Confidence is key", I suppose? Is this some sort of revelation? Come to think of it, I'm not sure what your point is, really. :razz:

    And that's quite alright. :grin: We both, in our own complementing ways, made this discussion just a bit more broad and insightful than it was previously, just a bit more "worth one's perusal" to those who will read and participate in it after us, I'd say. Bravo, to the both of us.
  • A new home for TPF
    It works. I have a couple of subreddits which I've never had to moderate. Downvotes do all the work.frank

    And this is a further point! Perception bias toward popularity. "If it's popular, it's right and should be paid attention to, if not, it's a waste of time." Also known as "judging a book by its cover"-ism. The greatest crime against human thought. I'm not immune. If I see a post from a staff member (at first I thought I was just a victim to authority bias, until I thought about it and realized, no, I genuinely recognize the elevated intellect of those who just so happen to be authority figures here, and that's perfectly okay) I pay it extra attention, and I've noticed generally tend to agree with it, or at least consider what specific viewpoints I hold that would differ as perhaps less refined than I would have otherwise. This is only natural for social beings. Yet it can be dangerous if it leads to a feedback loop of confirmation bias (ie. this is a forum of smart people, therefore, what is disliked is stupid, and what is liked is smart). That's fine for Reddit, for the majority, but with all due respect, this is not now nor hopefully will ever be anything like Reddit. Simply put, if the "norm" and "what's popular" in life and society was sufficient for those here, they wouldn't be here. They wouldn't seek greater. But we do. That's why we're here. We're not satisfied with the cookie-cutter norms and standards of everyday life that the layperson eats up as if it were ambrosia. Am I wrong?
  • Ideological Evil
    Which reminds me that the most dangerous people in the world are probably those who think they have reason and destiny on their side.Tom Storm

    Is it really that simple, though? The partially-disrobed homeless dude on the corner believes he has reason and destiny on his side. So, respectfully, it's far more complex and substantial than that one requirement of self-confidence or self-delusion.

    It takes two to tango. Human nature resulted in every crime against humanity. The front men or perpetrators, merely pawns of fate and catalysts of the darkness that churns within every man.

    Why are libraries full of lifetimes of wisdom and virtue empty yet arenas of combat and near-death cheap entertainment full at any given moment? Ask yourself that. And you'll find out something about yourself you did not wish to know.
  • A new home for TPF
    Maybe we could trial downvotes? They have a harsh side where immature people downvote to signal disagreement, but they can also be an effective means of community self moderation.frank

    Seems rather needless, perhaps even detrimental to exploration of free thought and differing view points. If you have a valid and logical disagreement, you simply make it known like an adult instead of attempting to obscure one's—essentially baseless—personal sentiments as if they were anything but exactly that.

    I wouldn't mind. So long as they don't actually do or mean anything. Otherwise all this will result in is not community self moderation but censorship against views that are perfectly valid yet not aligned to one's own—not even views—but ingrained dogma masquerading as views.

    Provided someone isn't literally just making things up that cannot be substantiated, one should have the respect to give any posit or position one doesn't either agree with or understand a proper response to reveal one's own understanding (or as it is many a time, misunderstanding) of the author's sentiment so that their own sentiment can be revealed and scrutinized in return. We wouldn't allow a perfectly valid albeit controversial claim to be replied to with "Yeah, well, I don't like that idea", as if it contributes anything to logic or reason and human understanding—which it doesn't. So why allow it in the form of trivial, faceless "down votes" devoid of any reason or explanation? :chin:
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    It's not a sign of intellectual rigor, broad-mindedness or virtuous humanity to empathize with career criminals; it's cowardice masquerading as such.

    I can assure you none of you would be pleading for nuance if you had had a single experience of the pitiless malevolence with which such individuals operate.

    These people ruin lives, communities, entire societies for petty monetary gain. They deserve no sympathy nor quarter.
    Tzeentch

    For the record, I largely agree with you. However I would like to offer the reminder that most people go through life fully, living and dying in a state of quasi-debilitation never really knowing or understanding the things some of us take for granted in life. Simply put, the lights are not all on upstairs.

    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" seems to be the words of a fool in your eyes, no? :smile:

    While most people will state they "don't care", the reality of the individual is they simply don't understand. It's like dealing with a dog. It hungers, so it eats. It is blameless until one tries to view it as anything but what it is—an equal—which is unfortunately what you seem to be doing for reasons I cannot imagine.
  • A new home for TPF
    what I think of when I think of a chatbox is an ongoing text group conversation, where the comments are brief and move back and forth quickly. That does describe the Shoutbox as it currently exists, although the comments can become longer and more involved, sometimes being used as a place to test out discussions as opposed to starting a thread. It's the longer conversations I wonder if will get lost under a chatbox feature.Hanover

    :100: :up:

    I also thought the layout from the old site was better in certain ways (although it had countless bugs and unreliability problems) because it showed the categories and the posts by recency by each category and not just everything at once.Hanover

    It definitely varies per individual, but generally speaking I'm fairly certain the majority of people prefer a (at least default) "dump" of ALL topics sorted by most recent activity. It just makes the place look more active and exciting (ie. not "dead"). Further customization on what topics are displayed or not displayed once a user signs up handles every possible concern IMO.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    I bear responsibility for my own actions, and not for those of others.Tzeentch

    That's not the point. There would be no "you", period, were it not for immorality. Therefore you have no non-hypocritical position to hold as far as judging others for their own. Human history is a smorgasbord of cruelty, indifference, and suffering inflicted on those who bore no crime other than being not as strong as somebody else.

    You're in a position to not be killed (ie. to survive) solely and exclusively by acts of immorality, because those before you did so so that you wouldn't have to. They're dead. They can't be "arrested" or judged. Whereas you, can. We ignore things that happened a long time ago for no other reason than it happened a long time ago. This is not a reliable foundation of morality.

    There is nothing odd but your assumption as to what it is I believe seeing as I have said nothing about myself personally other than what applies to all living human beings.

    It's not that serious. It's a discussion about facts and the philosophical nature of said facts. Don't take it so personally.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil
    A man voluntarily chooses to spend his final days on earth destroying the lives of as many people as possible by getting them hooked on meth - what room for nuance is there in our judgement of such a person?Tzeentch

    The intent was to make money so as to gain resources necessary for survival. Let's not pretend your existence was not brought about by selfishness and immoral acts committed by those who came before you. You're literally the spawn of immorality, in a way, we all are. Nothing you do or say will ever change the reality of your existence. This world is not, especially back then, a black and white calm theater of two types of people: those who are decent and worthy of life, and those who are terrible people who inflict suffering for no other reason than to do so. That's a rose-colored glasses type of delusion.

    If a government allows a subject to have a child without ensuring they are aware of all the reasonable dangers in this world, that government is at fault. But. They'll be called "tyrannical" or "authoritarian" just for trying to protect the well-being of human life by making the tough decision of who can reproduce and who should not right at the moment. If we say "oh freedom" and let people do whatever they want (as it is currently) we blame the parent for not educating the child as to how to avoid things that are dangerous. Some people have addictive tendencies. This is an indisputably and universally intrinsically negative and disfavored quality over those who can consume an otherwise addictive product that may lead to permanent harm if not used in moderation.

    So, all relevant factors considered, what do you do? We have three options. Option 1 is to force government to ensure only those permitted and granted to reproduce do so while others are punished and ultimately disallowed from reproducing freely. Option 2 is to make examples out of parents who raise kids that end up not listening to rational and reasonable warnings and things to avoid that are hazardous. Option 3 is to commit eugenics and ensure people who are prone to addictive tendencies are not born and do not result in those like them being born. Take your pick. Whichever you choose, you'll have more people than you can take at once against you. So. Time to re-frame one's argument—and of course—approach.

    I don't necessarily agree with the implied sentiments the average person making the hypothetical argument seriously and outside of the context of philosophy would most likely hold, of course. That said, I doubt anything conveyed is less than truthful as far as real world solutions and cause and effect is concerned.
  • A new home for TPF
    How could a live chat not function as a "community posting room"?Jamal

    First and foremost, it's not that big a deal. Though I feel impassioned enough to make this reply, as I do think, as someone who is not advanced, that is to say, not intimately acquainted with the ins and outs of higher philosophy, the Shoutbox is a joy to visit, peruse, and respond to. Probably an easy second favorite part of my experience with this website, behind reading threads, of course.

    In my experience a traditional Shoutbox or "live chat" is generally at the very top of the forum index (though this can—usually—be altered and even "collapsed" or outright hidden per user preference) and is roughly 5 - 10 lines of text "tall". Though it can be scrolled up. This discourages all but simple pleasantries and spontaneous "what's everybody up to" or perhaps the occasional "thoughts on today's topic of XYZ?", which is wholly sufficient, sure..

    But what about @jorndoe's ever popular news updates? These take up a good amount of screen real estate in the context of a live chat that encourages more spontaneity thus encourages more "fun" or "social" or otherwise "unsubstantial" replies.

    As it is now, sometimes the Shoutbox takes a few days to reach a new page (10 replies), sometimes it creates more than one page in 15 minutes. From my experience live chat permanently truncates a certain number of older replies based on however many new replies are made. It's nice to be able to go back and see what was said a day or two ago.

    Again, it's not that big a deal. Just my 2 cents on the matter. Which a mod did agree with as far as making something of the sort, I might add. It seems like a 2 second thing you can make or not make at any time so again try and not read too far into it.
  • A new home for TPF
    Existing members will have to sign up to join the new site [...] there will probably be a permanent announcement on the archive site.Jamal

    Does this mean there will be an entirely new domain name as well? Or something like a https://thephilosophyforum.com/archive link that will point to the soon-to-be-archived forum we're on now?

    This is a good domain name. A private browser window Google search for "online philosophy forum" shows TPF as #1 result for me. 10+ years of search relevance is worth keeping /utilizing as the access point for the new forum, if you ask me.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    There's no such time. Time came into existence along with the universe; the Big Bang is not an event in time but a boundary of time.Banno

    Huh. Interesting. I was not focally aware of that. There's no semi-equivalent (I get it's not a matter of simple terminology or verbatim but a truly transcendental concept altogether—somewhat)? There's no hypothetical future where humans have mastered time travel (and beyond?) that any matter currently in existence can be somehow "placed" or otherwise "end up" at such a point? Why is that? (It's honestly fascinating to ponder, is all)

    This sort of speculative physics makes for poor threads.Banno

    Perhaps. That said, I don't need to remind anyone here that all generally-accepted theories as well as most if not all scientific facts began as mere speculation. I fail to see an intrinsic evil in the practice per se, though I can see how it can be a bit disfavored and come off as irrelevant.

    Either way, I appreciate the newfound knowledge. :smile:
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    The big bang is as an explanation for, and from, what we see around us; the very opposite of what you are suggesting.Banno

    If you were to somehow—right now—go back in time to a few moments before the Big Bang—with no idea that it was about to create what we call "the known Universe"—yet retain your knowledge of the known Universe, such knowledge would technically be "beyond reality" since the known Universe hasn't been created at that point.

    The "known Universe" doesn't exist in reality at that point in time, other than in your head. Yet a few moments later—unbeknownst to you—it would. This is an explicit example (albeit hypothetical and per current scientific knowledge, currently impossible) of not only a valid posit of something "beyond reality" but a (theoretically) factual occurrence of reality being extended to something it was not previously.

    Trivially, maybe "Big Bangs" happen all the time (in an "eternal" sense or context of frequency/occurrence) and another might happen in the future, removing all traces of the current Universe (this one) in favor of a new Universe that currently does not exist in any form (which technically, may have been what happened and may very well be the origins of this Universe, one simply does not know). Run it through ChatGPT if for whatever reason I'm not communicating to you sufficiently.

    I'm basically saying there was a time this Universe (rather everything that we consider part of this Universe) didn't exist in any sort of recognizable form like it is now (ie. "pre-Big Bang" reality). At that time, talking about the Universe would be referring to something "beyond reality", yet would eventually become reality. It's the only example I got, but one example is all it takes to turn something from "100% absolute every single time" to "well, in most cases..." Which is a crucial distinction in philosophy (and basically anything else).

    I mention consciousness arising from simplex organisms in case you say something like "but this Universe DID always exist, it was just all inside of the Singularity!", which I would respond by saying "that would be like saying consciousness always existed inside the first single-celled organism it just 'became active' once organisms evolved highly-functioning brains and resulting intelligence", which would be patently false.
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    Why would you suppose that? Do you think the big bang is beyond comprehension?Banno

    My implication was, based on said theory, there was a point before what is commonly referred to as "the universe." A point (no pun intended) where "reality" or "all there is" was substantially different than what it is currently. So much so it can barely even be discussed and remains but a humble, albeit generally-accepted theorem.

    If, hypothetically, one could place themself, as they are, prior to the "Big Bang", everything we know now, the entire Universe as we know it, would, in theory, be "outside" or "beyond" reality. Wouldn't it? It didn't exist at that point. Not in any conceivable or fathomable form. Not really. No different than saying consciousness existed before intelligent beings came about.

    The current universe would be "beyond reality" at the time prior to the Big Bang. Just as consciousness would be "beyond reality" prior to the first intelligent being. Is this not correct?
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    Because reality is what there is.

    To posit something "beyond reality" is to posit more of what there is. It is to extend reality.
    Banno

    "Beyond reality" is not a region; it is a grammatical error.Banno

    Are we to understand you reject the Big Bang hypothesis, then? What theory as to the origins of this universe might you favor, pray tell? :smile:
  • A quandary: How do we know there isn’t anything beyond our reality?
    All of existence is a prison. The question is, what is outside that prison?an-salad

    This is unexpectedly profound, perhaps that was your intent, perhaps not. For the average person, even those who claim to have found the charms of love or who otherwise remain placated by the juvenile pleasures life has to offer (wealth, physicality ie. "the flesh" or "pleasure", feeling of esteem and respect from strangers, hollow as these things are, they remain the sole driving force behind most of life's actions and ambitions, and of course, naturally, most of life's suffering) all have the same thing in common. We inevitably want more. No, we delude ourselves, often passively with empty gratitude shared in public (ie. "I'm so grateful, I couldn't ask for more") so as to sell an image to an ultimately uncaring world. But this inevitability manifests in "mid life crises", peculiar hobbies, marital strife, microaggressions, and more if left unexamined and unaddressed. Not to mention those who have yet to find peace and purpose.

    Regardless of our status in life—perceived, real, deluded or anything in between—we all have one sobering dynamic in common. We all hunger and thirst. Both physically and of course symbolically, for that which we do not have, and even that which we do have. This is clear as day and does not require any sort of explanation for someone living in abject poverty or afflicted with a debilitating condition or ailment, naturally. But what of an upperclassman with everything the average man (or woman) reasonably strives for in life? Stable, high-paying job, big house, loving partner, beautiful family, good friends, respect from his or her peers, an abundance of wealth (including time)—and above all—that ever so elusive feeling of true peace at the very last moments of one's day to be followed by true purpose and drive at the start of the following, only to repeat indefinitely until the last of one's days. What of that man? Is he simply deluded? Or are those who compare his life and status to imprisonment merely jealous and disappointed with their own (projection, perhaps)? Surely this must be the only relevant dynamic (a binary "one or the other") in relation to the aforementioned questions posed. Mustn't it?

    Surely he (and anyone else with half a mind) would never attempt to equate such a charmed and privileged existence to that of a "prison", would they? No, not in a million years. Or so it seems. One argument—and not a particularly good one (without the right biases in my opinion)—would be to start by taking a page from the stereotypical "anti-materialism" playbook. Along the lines of "one doesn't own possessions, one's possessions own the person, requiring constant and daily vigilance and occasional villainy to ensure one continues from one day to the next living in the manner in which one has become accustomed, all the while knowing, deep down, he would be not only hopelessly lost but simply destroyed if he were to lose any one of these things many men live life without, for even the slave with golden shackles undoubtedly remains but a slave." No, it's not particularly great, but it has merit given the right context.

    I notice you go one further by saying all existence is a prison, so even an enlightened anti-materialist who has given up all worldly desire is still "imprisoned" due to him being conscious of himself. No different than a historical wealthy monarch in charge of vast swathes of lands, armies, and treasure. This would seem to betray an almost "antinatalist" or "anti-human" sort of world view, along the lines of "all life is bad and the less of it, the better." Not a very popular position to hold, quite dangerous even, yet the philosophical validity is not lost entirely.

    The brevity (or simplicity) or your remarks, while profound, do leave much to interpretation. "All of existence" is a very broad term. Perhaps a bit broader than one initially realizes. Logically speaking, if "all of existence" is a prison, that would mean, the only thing beyond "existence" and "not a prison" would be... non-existence? This makes your remark astonishingly less profound, or at the very least, less vast in terms of philosophical context. There would seem to be two possible dynamics that can follow from that point. A sort of spiritual or metaphysical reality that transcends (has existed before and will exist after) the life and death of the body. Or, as mentioned previously, a sort of, in my view rather myopic, "anti-life" or "antinatalist" view of the world.

    Either of which are valid—if not somewhat tired and largely titular—positions to hold, sure. Life, particularly the majority of human existence before the modern age of science and technology that largely alleviated the prevalence and tenacity of human suffering, is seemingly skewed in disproportionate favor of opportunity of things like pain, injury, illness, suffering, death, etc. Simply put, there's more things that can go wrong than go right as far as the human experience goes in the context of existence as we know and define it. But what of it? Where do you make the leap from "I think, therefore I am" to "I think, therefore I am not?" Was this intended or merely an adverse side affect? :chin: