This is one of the loosest MB's I've been on. — RogueAI

We frequent different depths of the Internet, that's all I can say.

It's all great fun. — RogueAI

It is. It certainly is. :grin:

If you're so smart how come you never figured out that science is true, or that Earth is a big ball of molten rock? — karl stone

I'll admit many posters here have me beat as far as strict encyclopedic memory (knowing/being able to immediately recall all the "buzzwords", and base concepts, of established mainstream philosophies and their authors and able to use them flawlessly as a second nature in debate and discussion). In my defense I've simply never taken the time to study them. I wanted to be "my own" philosopher, not being "influenced" (stealing) the ideas of other people. It didn't quite work out as I envisioned, no not yet, but a noble effort remains a noble effort. :wink:

Science is about discovery. Most discoveries are simply more correct than they are incorrect. This is what constitutes a scientific "fact." They don't change often, but sometimes they do.

It's not that the Earth isn't a big ball of molten rock, or that geothermal energy is not viable, it's that you've explicitly stated your belief in a conspiracy that powerful groups are actively suppressing the value and use of geothermal energy, for reasons you've yet to logically explain ("Big Oil" could just use their money to corner the geothermal market, make legislation and more that effectively results in little to no change in profit, theoretically at least, if one believes they're so large and nefarious).

I mean it's interesting to think about. Humans are opportunistic by nature, so greed is hardwired into our DNA and as a result "culture", despite efforts to make it a taboo. It's plausible. But just pointing to the sky and waving your arms around without really showing any proof is no way to convince anyone of anything, be they a thinking person or not, now is it? :chin:

If you're so honest, why can't you admit that's valid and relevant? — karl stone

It's factual. But see the bolded text above as to why it is you, my good sir, who makes other things not related to geothermal more relevant, which as a result consequently makes the idea of geothermal less relevant, at least in the framing of your concerns and their priority.

Not as dense as you are dishonest. — karl stone

I've illustrated no dishonesty in any interaction we've had on this web forum, whereas you, as others would agree (and perhaps may be inclined to soon punish as a result) have shown much denseness.

So, that is the dynamic upon which things rest. Not yours. But that. And that alone.

Oh contraire. Part of the problem is that we need abundant constant clean energy going forwards - not to spend fortunes mitigating some small part of carbon emissions, intermittently, in ideal weather conditions. Without discussing what may very well prove a bone of contention for those invested, emotionally if not financially in wind and solar; in terms of what these technologies are able to deliver, then the question of feasibility is mooted.

I cannot show how Limits to Growth is misconceived without proving the qualitatively superior nature of high temperature geothermal technology, not thereby inspire with a vision of a prosperous and sustainable energy abundant future. — karl stone

See, this is fine. Up to the point you fail to realize "magma energy" is akin, at least in the argument you framed, to anything that is non-dependent on "ideal weather conditions", such as solar and especially wind that are in fact dependent on such. The known (magma, atomic, etc.) and the unknown are one and the same. You simply have the apple of your eye which in its specificity is detracting from the base philosophy. If you want to promote a specific energy source, and not an idea, get some money, and go lobby at your local government. This is not what this forum is for. It's for discussing general ideas rationally, not evangelizing specific and dogmatic paths to such.

These subjectivists are preparing to die; engaged in anti-enlightenment, anti-capitalist, anti-rationalist, post-modern nihilism, via antinatalism unto the absurd. How can I break through to them; that there's is in fact a long and prosperous future ahead for the making, all to play, to hope for, to dream of and talk into existence were I contrainend from offering more than cursory demonstrations of fact? — karl stone

This has nothing to do with anything of the above (first quote), at least in the context of strict philosophic debate.

I tweeted Greta Thunberg everyday for months and got no replies — karl stone

Oh how dense can you really be. You remind me of the unfortunate ilk I have to be associated with. Do you really think any celebrity reads anything people send them? Other than law-enforcement associated types who scan incoming messages for possible threats and alert the proper authorities? On social media especially? Of course not. Big name media persons who garnish majority attention in newspapers, or even unknown models on explicit (or semi-explicit) photo sharing sites such as OnlyFans. It's run by people other than the person themself. You're responding (and spending, wasting rather, your effort and resources) on random persons who will never communicate anything you wish. It's amazing talking to someone who knows (or at least is able to articulate) knowledge much greater than I yet fails to grasp such not only common sense but basic knowledge.

Come to think of it, how is capitalism tied to Christianity, when it can also be said, as you noted earlier, that plenty of communistic type of offshoots also arose out of it? — unimportant

How could you be so dense? What is tied to every single name, claim, and refusal of such is one thing: human nature. People are liars. Natural opportunists. It's hard-coded into DNA and evolution.

No different than how even the least of us follow every single trend to a tee. No one wants to be left out. The outcast. So, in a society where Christianity is law of the land, if you're a good person, you're a Christian. And if you're a bad person, guess what? You're also a "Christian."

The same goes for any title or concept. Intelligent beings are opportunists, which means, if they have the capacity to speak, they will inevitably be liars. This isn't hard to understand. So why make it so?

So by philosophy you mean metaphysics; intellectual logic chopping rather than anything concerned with truth, wisdom, or justice as it pertains to the real world? I cannot agree; that's not what philosophy is. It's more than a mere talking shop; it's about asking how we live. — karl stone

Of course not. Furthermore, conflating metaphysics with intellectual "logic chopping" is absurd. Yes, logic is required for any sort of meaningful communication, at least when it crosses a certain threshold beyond idle pleasantries and grunts of displeasure in the form of sentences. This is an odd side of you that's coming out now. You're betraying a certain willful ignorance now that reminds me of how you made strange, esoteric references and remarks to other long term posters here. As if you've been here much longer and are much more familiar with persons here than you like to portray yourself as being to random interlocutors/casual posters such as myself.

Proving high temperature geothermal is technologically possible is not about mechanics; it's about the sustainability of human existence. — karl stone

It's an aside, as far as the underlying and larger philosophy. It doesn't matter if it's geothermal or wind or solar, if the mechanics are sound, that's all that matters and the topic reverts (or rather returns) to what it rightfully should be: the discussion of whether or not human endeavors alone can result in sustainability that results in our continued existence, or whether or not our existence can be sustained at all and how to best go forward.

The specific mathematics, equations, and studies of the type of energy are not part of the particular philosophy you purport to discuss. It's either, feasible, or it's not (but perhaps something else is). Anything specific to geothermal shouldn't require more than a half sentence per its relevance to the philosophy of sustainability. If, again, that's what you purport your desire is to discuss?

Basically, it doesn't matter. "If geothermal energy is feasible" or "if geothermal energy is not feasible but perhaps something, whether currently known or otherwise, might be", is one and the same as far as this purported philosophical argument of "sustainability" is concerned.

It's like attending a meeting in an intellectual debate club, and everyone is dressed as asked, minimal themes, nothing shocking or ostentatious, and here you are, decked out in every piece of clothing, button, or pin that advertises your one belief. It's a distraction. That's what it is — and that's all it is — a distraction. And from so deep within that heavy layer of non-necessity, I wouldn't be surprised if you failed to see such yourself. But. You're clearly capable of such. So. Come now. Step outside your current seemingly unbreakable will and current fascination, and see the larger debate for what it is. See the forest for the trees.

you sure do have a keen insight into the site owners' inner workings. — karl stone

I enjoy reading his posts. Not habitually or in an obsessive way, just casually as I see new ones on the front page. I have the site loaded up a lot. I like being intellectually stimulated. It keeps me off... other things. Usually.

It's common sense, really. Why run and actively engage in something for 10 years without pay if you're not at least mildly impassioned about it.

I hate my younger self. His naivety in allowing people to befriend him for no apparent reason is responsible for at least half my woes. — karl stone

We have that much in common, at least.

I'm wondering how you - who have such insight into the thinking of someone you profess not to know, has no insight whatsoever into the thinking of someone you profess to be a friend? — karl stone

I in fact do have much insight, as does anyone who has been here for several years and reads the posts of said individual. I mean, sure, every post he made could be facetious in some attempt to obscure his real character, for some reason, but aside from that. It doesn't take much to gleam a fair amount of a person's character from observation of a prolonged, natural expression of their posts online. Sure, he could just be a liar. But if not, it's just my opinion. Surely not infallible. I'm "in support of your membership here", I suppose is the more apt-expression as opposed to "friendship." An ally. Same concept, really.

I might appreciate my membership here more if it didn't feel I'm unwelcome. — karl stone

This is more of a philosophy forum. The science is related, indirectly, sparsely, tangentially, perhaps. But a topic centered around discussing the scientific facts of a theory is categorically off topic. Absolutely fine in the Lounge, but again, this is more about philosophy. Non-physical things. It just comes off as this obsession, that may very well change the world we live in, but nonetheless ultimately rests outside of the scope of what this forum is intended for (philosophy).

Professions of friendship confuse me. Why would you want to be my friend? — karl stone

Let's just say I see a young me (albeit much more intelligent) in you. I would hate for brashness and your obfuscation of "pushing the envelope" or "being a trendsetter" (like the philosophers named in your second post) and simply refusing to follow the rules for no other reason than to do so not required to express or share your point be your downfall here. When you clearly have so much more to offer.

I'll show what I mean. You, like most if not hopefully all persons who post here consider this site as "just the Internet." I.E. there's plenty of intellectual circles to post, engage, and become part of online. This is simply one of a great many. It's a casual hobby. Something you do for fun, no different than taking up an interest in woodwork or perhaps even twiddling one's thumbs. But not to Jamal. The site owner. He may be temperamental at times, for reasons none of us would ever know or be able to judge. But. One thing is for certain. He's worked hard on this site. He's invested great amounts of time, effort, and frustration in ensuring it's a respectable and above all fruitful forum for discussion of higher intellect, specifically philosophy. It's important to him. So it becomes a somewhat strict place as a result. And if you habitually fail to acknowledge that, specifically by, in an almost juvenile and mocking fashion, respond to "don't spam the shoutbox" by what one might construe as retaliatory spamming of the forum, well, it makes it seem like you don't really appreciate your membership here. Which is a loss for many, not just yourself, I might add. And I'm afraid his hands would be tied as to his response, now wouldn't they?

This would have probably been best communicated via private message, but I doubt this thread will linger for too long. So I'm happy to share my TPF "patriotism?" in the interim, I suppose. :grin:

Shameless plug.

Do I get a say in this? — karl stone

Have you ever? :lol:

Hey I may not be one of the players here, not so popular (as you might be able to gather from my username, I don't desire such), but as it happens to stand I may be one of your few friends here. As nominal a fact as that may be, you should be appreciative of that.

Bruh. What are you doing.

I think "being trans" is a thing. — Dawnstorm

I think it's more hijacked by those who are larger and less intelligent to bully those who are smaller, skinnier, perhaps talk with a bit higher voice, or are otherwise closer to what modern societies think of as "feminine" simply because they're cruel and miserable people who they know deep down the world would be better off without. You know the kind. The "if I'm not actively oppressing someone, no matter who it is, I don't feel normal — someone has to be inferior and beneath me for me to function properly" type. Horrible people raised by similarly horrible people thus creating a never-ending chain of blight on moral society. Until people like me are given authority by a fatigued and desperate population whose only wish is to live in the heydays of their grandparents when men knew how to act and how to respect one another.

Men are very prideful so calling someone something that suggests they're "less of a man" or "like a girl" or "little boy" that makes the implication they're unable to defend others or themselves, can be quite hurtful, to the point of mental re-configuration ie. trauma if done perpetually, repeatedly, and of course in tandem with violence or other belittlement or humiliation.

If you shout at someone loud enough, and belittle them while doing so, you will re-wire their mind to make them believe anything. It's occultic and hidden in nature but there are forms of psychological torture and programming available across the web that essentially offer step-by-step results on how to do so. I wouldn't recommend looking them up or having that on your history but, they're there. Basically like imagine a woman being kidnapped in her teens and held captive in a literally cage beating beaten, starved, force-fed (or not fed) and being insulted for a decade or longer. Their mind would turn into something unrecognizable and they would believe themself to be whatever the captor wants them to. That's a more dramatic version of what happens with some people who were bullied into believing they're unfit to even share the same gender of some very negative and cruel people.

So, as long as one can acknowledge that the above scenarios are not only possible and could adequately explain many persons who claim to be such, but do in fact happen, alongside the idea that a person may truly have gender dysphoria that came about organically and not by the work of social engineering, peer pressure, or persistent trauma, that's something I could consider as valid.

Other than that, some people just think whatever the "next big thing" is is cool and are trend followers and would falsely identify as someone who has true gender dysphoria, thus depriving the true person with gender dysphoria of their struggle, plight, and rights simply because young and uneducated people whose minds are not even fully developed have a tendency to mis-diagnose themselves if ever given the opportunity to do so as opposed to a thorough multi-session exam by a licensed medical professional.

I don't know of any forums that are prepared to fight the legal battles required to oppose the colloquial sense of Article 17 of the GDPR. In theory they could fight those battles, sure. — Leontiskos

If in the jurisdictional province subject to the aforementioned document ruled binding by the relevant governing body, one is not allowed to administrate a website where communication is possible without being subject to GDPR, then that's correct. Terrifying, yet correct.

The argument would be, there is no battle to fight if the war is simply considered irrelevant. The terms (might, I haven't checked this particular forum software of website's specific stipulations) say "everything is public communication". Article 17 is specifically about "personal data." Which they (anyone who signs up for an account to post) agreed is a non-existent concept on SiteXYZ.com, for example. I'll erase their legal first and last name or address if they were so foolish to post such, but beyond that, two people have a right to make a contract and anything that makes that impossible deprives one's right of participating in society and the legal due process.

Sure, if that's what it says that's what it says. But of course some legal contracts (yes, those things most people don't read that in fact legally serves as if they did) do consider posts made public communication, even so-called "Private" messages. At least the term that there is no such reasonable expectation of actual "privacy" on a private forum. A webmaster can view private PMs if he wishes, due to the nature of the underlying terms.

Yeah, if I'm some amateur web developer and I make a forum with no terms whatsoever that you literally just punch in the web URL and click "Post", that probably applies.

But no matter how thorough those terms are, it can't supersede the right of two people to make a contract that said work of party A belongs to said venue or otherwise party B. It's simply not possible.

I can't know what it feels like to give birth — Michael

Surely pain is measurable. Sure, specifics of such, as one could imagine privately without needing speak such graphic details are unique to those who experience them. That aside, we more or less all have the same "hardware", so to speak, at least mentally. (absent those who don't, of course)

It's not some inconceivable concept, that is. Kidney stones, for example. I'm told the pain of such is quite awful.

In most contexts. . . no. . . you seem too obsessed with ones chromosomes that your comments do not in fact make this clear. — substantivalism

To be fair, the consistent "caller of chromosomes", as it were, is not @Harry Hindu, he's simply responding to what information he was given to accept or refute.

Why would it be? — substantivalism

Because people don't like liars. Lies can be small and inconsequential, such as falsely stating you don't know where your good friend's keys are after a night of drinking where he is clearly unfit to operate a motor vehicle. Or they can be fatal. Or unethical, per one's religious belief standards, such as feeding a person who follows a certain religion forbidding the consumption of pork. A person who follows a certain religion that forbids the consumption of pork will not die or burst into flames if they ingest pork. But it brings what can be considered existential shame per their religious belief. Is it foolish? Perhaps. Is it up to you to say what a man's life purpose and pursuit of such purpose should be, where there is no other affected party but the one man? I think not.

Because I now don't care about gender or sex — substantivalism

That's fine. Some people don't care about professional sports racing or even life itself. But this is a topic of discussion for people who in fact either do care, or have some relevant knowledge as to the topic at hand.

Argument being, posting on some random website is not a requirement of life or a human right. I.E., you went to some dude's house because you wanted to (of your own volition), and he said, "oh, sure, you can come in if you do X and Y but not Z." Would you like to come in then yes or no? And the dude said yes so that's all there is to it. :100:

There's a free speech thing to "necessary" social media like Google and Facebook which some food and lodging companies or services either explicitly require or effectively require to utilize but for something like a private forum, I'm not so sure.

Like I could literally take $20 and buy theREALphilosophyforum.com, or something and start my own forum if I had the mind to. And that would be my right. So no one is deprived of some intrinsic right in such the scenario described above.

As I understand it, in some jurisdictions users have a legal right to have their posts and identity removed from the website if they so wish. — Leontiskos

IF they didn't agree to legally binding terms at the moment of account creation. Which most all forum software requires (not for the benefit of the forum host or users mind you but the software company itself).

"All content submitted becomes reproducible, archiveable, yadda yadda" Not too sure on all that really but from what I've seen.

How society looks at women. What it is to be a woman is built by society from the day a girl is born. How a woman is viewed and views herself is built minute by minute by society. Luckily, in 2025 most of society is fairly relaxed and doesn’t discriminate and laws have been put in place to prevent discrimination but there is still a fundamental difference between men and women. — Malcolm Parry

Could the same sentence(s) be said accurately if the words "woman" and "women" were replaced with "man" and "men", respectively? Why or why not?

What would it be like in a world where men never existed and only women did? They would just simply be "human" assuredly? What about a world where there was always three biological genders (say with a third form of genitalia that may or may not allow reproduction with one or more genders, perhaps including one's own)?

I get your point. It may be shallow in the sense that what it means to be a conscious human being is just so deep and rich a topic of discussion that it transcends our biological differences entirely and makes said differences seem ridiculous to talk about in comparison, but, it's still a topic nonetheless that has far reaching social and psychological implications. Having a womb and being expected to literally house an entire human being inside you for 9 months vs. the idea being all but an alien concept to one who doesn't, etc., etc...

Not because of genitalia or menstruation or even physical disadvantages but how they are perceived by society. That is gender. — Malcolm Parry

Genitalia (presumably the underlying biological reality and innate chemical differences that produce the difference types) and menstruation is gender? Menstruation is a social construct? Really? Like women can just will the cycle a way? And conversely I can menstruate if I just really set my mind to it? I think that claim of yours needs a slight looking at and a fair amount of tinkering before it's "street legal", per se. While we're on the shtick of chastising arguments. :snicker:

Finland — boethius

Finland? BWAHAHA oh mate. No offense. I know many good Fins. Alright just these two guys. But really? Free health care? Free everything?

This is basically you guys if you keep that crap up.



No and I mean I talked to a Finnish (aspiring) politician. He made it seem fair. Sure, if someone's wife or husband is killed in a car accident and they are in true irretrievable anguish (which I believe the concept of such to be a lie) they can live the rest of their days in reasonable dignity. That sounds fine. But we all know, what sounds good on paper and that echos between the halls of good and wise men, does not always translate to the so called "Real world".

I will make a post about it. — boethius

Please do. But! Try the Lounge.

It's complicated/concerning, in the country I'm from "police harassment" means people who are sworn members of a municipal police force committing civil rights abuses, not what one might expect from the context of your story (you were harassing members of a police department).

It's still all, very, very interesting.

I was not aware of any issues. I was arrested a few weeks ago, then held in a psychiatric facility on suspicion of "police harassment", so have my own stuff to deal with. — boethius

That's actually the most interesting thing I've read here in a long time.

Anyway, he made a post about Trump and I made a reply along the lines of "that's the kind of person people relate to, as the average person's nature is low-brow, impulsive, and is basically the lowest common denominator", like I couldn't care less about the topic I just felt that was a fact that adequately answered the question and he completely ignored my post and just called me a "Trump worshiper", despite, again, simply giving my factual input as to the dynamic of the modern politic. Basically just an honest factual analysis of human nature as to how it relates to modern politics. Again, truly, I couldn't care less. So in my opinion, the individual in question is perhaps a bit sensitive or otherwise on a hair-trigger on certain if not many topics. I wouldn't take it personally, I suppose.

Oh now you care. After he's gone. Yeah. How typical of you

If you'd really care to know such information may (possibly) be found by observing my and his limited interaction from my posting history. (Which in fact I wonder if is even possible to view)

I'll give you my opinion point blank. If you'd like. But that shall be delivered privately, you can message me, if you'd like. Otherwise, don't speak ill of the (no longer posting). Have you no respect? :lol:

A social construct is defined as an agreement between members of a society. — Harry Hindu

Not necessarily. Fear of a prolonged electricity outage could be considered a social construct, a wholly modern invention, while it is certainly not an "agreement" between anyone. It's outright undesired. But the intrinsic nature of losing something one desires, no matter how foolish and unnecessary, makes it widespread and common. Begrudgingly acknowledging what we do not wish to acknowledge is an agreement, but denial remains a true factor in society which invalidates any sort of conscious or willful agreement.

Gender as a social construct would be the agreement between members of a society on how each sex behaves. — Harry Hindu

This is where it gets weird. Fuzzy, if you will. I'll continue to your next sentence as to "expectation."

To identify as a one gender or the other would be identifying as an expectation society has of the sexes.

How is an expectation, or agreement among members of a society, an identity? — Harry Hindu

Expectation is fine. No one is forced to behave a certain way other than the basic codified laws. Don't murder people, don't park at Zone A after 6PM, etc., etc. ad infinitum.

Sure, people don't expect you to walk around in public cursing and grabbing one's genitals in front of mixed company, but legally, that's allowed. One might be socially ostracized, but as long as no codified law is broken (harassing, stalking, or assaulting said person) that's just nobodies concern.

To the point, an identity is what one holds as a fundamental core of their existence. For example, one might consider oneself a lover, another might consider themself a fighter, or an intellect, or a "blunt" person. That's their right (in most all countries) to pursue what they consider happiness, be it fulfilling or not, provided it doesn't break codified laws.

Parents often expect their children to be "good persons", and such might be considered one's identity. Don't you consider yourself a good person? That's one aspect of your identity sure. But, as I'm sure you agree, that doesn't cast an unchangeable mold as to who or what you are (or perhaps can be). Does it?

It is based on an understanding there are these biological realities of male and female a priori to the social construction and it is the social construction that is dependent upon these biological realities to exist. — Harry Hindu

This is what I would consider the key point of your argument. While I agree, surely plenty don't. And though I feel you've answered this quite succinctly, surely @Michael will address this quote specifically.

Society is not saying that wearing a dress makes you a woman. Society is saying that you are a female and we expect you to behave this way because you are a female. — Harry Hindu

Society can say whatever it wants. I mean, sure, in theory, society can pass a law saying people under 5' should be killed for their own well-being, or perhaps that certain people should be enslaved. It doesn't make it right. Naturally, one must adapt to survive. So even in unjust times and scenarios, one would be wise to, I suppose, "get with the program" and do what you must do to survive. This has been the one consistent reality since the beginning of time. But, that doesn't change the underlying deeper reality that just because something is how it is, doesn't mean it's how it should be or would be best for all. You can agree on that much, yes?

In short, social expectations don't conflate with modern legal systems that separate persons by sex during moments of vulnerability (using the bathroom, being seated for a prolonged period with one's pants down and around their ankles thus immobilizing the person). Men have a primal desire to mate (engage in intercourse) with women. Anyone who avoids that fact is simply ignorant of the larger discussion. And human persons born a male are liable to retain such desires regardless of artificial medical operation. Am I wrong?

I'm tired of going in circles with you. I've already answered the question using your own definition of gender and you are still having a difficult time. — Harry Hindu

I've noticed there's some disconnect between the two arguments here.

So, what is your argument in one sentence. Or two. One as simple as possible, and one as thorough as possible.

From what I can tell, as it stands at the moment of writing, the disconnect or disagreement is as follows:

@Michael believes a "transgender man" is a proper title that accurately describes a human being who wishes to identify as a gender that he was not born as. Whether this is a will, whim, or some deep longing and extreme existential desire that we are horrible people for preventing, he has yet to answer.

You believe, no, wishing you were someone else (be they a different gender, race, wealth class, or what have you) is simply a wish and not part of reality. Nor is it a medical need or necessity that requires a "remedy".

Do you agree with that, or no? If not, why not? Please be specific.

Realistically I believe post-gender thinking is the best way forward, though I'm not sure how possible it would be to convince people of this. — MrLiminal

This goes back to the heart of the debate, why would you have to "convince" someone of something that doesn't actually result in any benefit or alleviation of burden? Something that's not organic. Sure, I'll be the first person to agree that medicine, that is to say, the best path forward, in and of itself, may not taste good or otherwise be pleasurable at the start. Same with any effort, exercise, or endeavor. But why people do all of the above, things that may be at first or even overall unpleasant, is because all of these things result in one simple thing: result itself. It's "self-evident" that exercise, though often unpleasant and grueling offers benefit. Same with hard work, effort, and dedication. So, if your belief is not "possible" to justify (at least in your current understanding) I would have to ask the obvious question: what makes you think it justified to hold to begin with? :chin:

I think we are capable as a society of accommodating our various biological differences without getting as hung up as we do about what parts people have or if we think how they act matches their parts. — MrLiminal

The best part about modern society is that everyone is equal. Provided you follow the law. You can walk around thinking you're a cat and have a right to pee anywhere, but in reality, if you break the law, you will be placed under arrest or otherwise suffer real and tangible punishment toward your person or asset. That's the only way to get people to behave. And that's how the world we live in is.

In an ideal world, rude people or those unable to behave civilly would have been bred out along time ago. Problem is, this is a post-war world with 5,000 years of war, conquest, and various other immoralities. So, it's populated with the worst of the worst. That's what we're working with here. The solution is fairly obvious but as far as politically correct things going forward: it's about following the law and being a law-abiding citizen. Ensuring those who have true value in civil society (intellect, morality, compassion, heroism, etc.) are allowed to reproduce in greater numbers while those who are not slowly dwindle in number, thus making the world a better place for all and preventing it from becoming a hellish dystopia no one really wants to live in.

Also, glad to see you back after your 5 month absence. Feel free to post in the Shoutbox as far as what you've been up to. :point:

I do feel that's insulting to the majority of citizens. — Vera Mont

I feel people are not as educated as they, not only used to be, but could be. In short, I feel there's more to be known than what exists in the average human mind and that the gap between what is known and what could be known amounts to a level, a dark chasm, of ignorance that is demonstrably hazardous and does actively result in unnecessary, preventable harm, trauma, and suffering. In short, I'm a "what you don't know can in fact not only hurt, but kill", kind of guy. If that's alright?

That's what I believe and I know it can be justified by simple observation. Not a "truth hurts" kind of person (the absolute worst people who seek not truth but harm or validation of their own decrepit character like to say that when they haphazardly stumble upon a rare moment of false vindication of their poor life choices), but yeah, it's what I believe to be a fact. If one disagrees, that is perfectly acceptable. Though, it would be nice to show evidence to the contrary. I can back up my claim. Why not do so for yours, if you'd like?

So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be? — Michael

Born something he (or she, I don't indulge or humor nonsense let alone keep track of such) wasn't. How simple is that to grasp? Sure, it's natural to wish you were a few inches taller if you happen to be short, or a bit larger if you happen to be small, or much more wealthy if you happen to be poor, etc. At the end of the day, you were born as you were, not necessarily as you desire. And that's all there is to it.

You should not reinforce people's unhealthy delusions and obsessions, that only validates the only thing going on here, which is a lie. A delusion. At best a mistake and inaccurate analysis of one's self. It will never be anything more than that.

And sometimes a biological boy comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological girls, and sometimes a biological girl comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological boys – and this is not wrong because these gender roles are a social construct that have no direct connection to DNA or reproductive organs at all. — Michael

All of that is fine, well fine enough, as there's more important things to deal with, up until the point that one considers it logical to permanently and irreversibly alter one's non-disabled and fully healthy body and form, most critically those under the age of what is socially considered a functional and legal adult.. That is what you're blatantly avoiding, my good sir. And I believe you are doing such intentionally for whatever reason that is again up to the public writ-large to determine why and perhaps what should be done as a result.

What delusion? — Michael

That you're something you're not. It is common for men to shame other men and compare those they either do not respect or deem inferior to them or who are smaller than them as being "women" or "like a girl."

Just because someone is ostracized or otherwise feels out of place or "not a man/woman" ie. not a normal member of his or her group who fits in, doesn't mean that person is actually gender dysmorphic. They just don't feel normal because they either are not physically and get treated differently as a result or other persons have convinced them of such by sheer will alone. It's a tragedy. Plain and simple.

It's also not something that actually happens. This is a ridiculous strawman. — Michael

Dude. That's literally what the whole discussion is about. Yes, it is very ridiculous. But this is the topic we're discussing. Why are you doing this? Acting like that's not what the majority of people who have "gender-affirming" surgery effectively go through mentally, if not much more simplified. You're clearly intelligent enough to not have to avoid the topic. I'll let those viewing make their own decision as to your motives and reasoning for playing dumb.

You claimed that sex parts dictate which bathroom one can use such that people with a penis use one bathroom and people with a vagina use another bathroom. — Michael

I mean, while I can't answer for @Harry Hindu I feel the following a likely sentiment or inevitable question.

Do children not grow up wishing they were, I don't know, Superman or something? Some greater being with superpowers. Of course they do. That's why the genre and market of such is so popular. People want to be something they're not. And that's fine, as a child. But when you grow up and start physically and irreversibly altering your body over a delusion, something that's just not real or factual, it's just not right mate. Especially for those whose brains have not fully developed, which all science says does not occur until AT LEAST 25-- minimum.

Say I have a pet cat and I'm amazed at how high it can jump and the how it always lands on its feet. Just because in some fictional future one might be able to get implants that allow one to behave or interact with the world similarly, doesn't mean it should be done. Again limits have to be drawn, for the good of humanity.

Or, sure, someone who's taller than me. Or much larger and stronger. People shouldn't be chasing something they're not, they need to be content with the hand they were dealt and recognize it as a unique human experience that they have the privilege to enjoy, even if it is less than favorable.

What kind of world are we going to hand off to our children? One as its supposed to be, where people are people, yes with their faults and on occasion undesired features, shame, and everything in between. Or some dystopia where one person feels unwell or is maladjusted to life and wants to become a cyborg with 3 arms or an extra set of genitalia or less or more or I mean, it's just absurd. Limits must be drawn. Just because something can be done (bizarre and extreme surgery), doesn't mean it should.

Those exceedingly rare cases 1 out of like 500 million who have true chemical and biological androgynous syndrome, that's one thing. Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously. Not in a world of real issues and tragedy such as human trafficking and starvation. I'm sorry.

All you did was insult the electorate. — Vera Mont

I'm sorry you feel that way. But it happens to be a fact that the average person is not educated as far as most efficiently and effectively managing nations, entire peoples, even small to medium-sized companies. Many are. But most are not. I'm not sure what's so controversial or insulting about what is generally considered commonly held and widely-agreed upon knowledge

They don't need a king to tell them what's good for them. — Vera Mont

No but they clearly had an effectual role model or leader or at least adequate teacher, or perhaps they did not, and the society in which was created by those who had such inevitably molded them into what they were.

Again, I'm not saying things are not best as they are, and such things should be left alone. This is simply the nature of the discussion we both willingly took part in and the facts of the alternate forms of governance need be stated as the facts they are. That is to say, just because one contender happens to have lost in the end, does not mean their positive attributes need be forgotten or dismissed as if they never existed or don't have eternal context in the field going forward.

Well, so much for Martin Luther King Jr., Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, Eleanor Roosevelt, César Chávez, Malala Yousafzai Greta Thunberg... who needs 'em. — Vera Mont

What of them? They lived wonderful (if not tumultuous) lives and even in death continue to inspire others. Where is this parsimonious sentiment of yours coming from? Because, surely, it's not from anything I've written or attempted to communicate.

Is it that you overestimate toddlers' ability to negotiate traffic, underestimate adults' ability to express political views, or have historically unfounded faith in the ability of monarchs? — Vera Mont

No, I quite agree, the system is best as it is, such as it is, of course. That doesn't mean we don't live in a compromise whose downsides are not on full display at every turn and perhaps can be improved. Do you not agree? :smile:

Voters are emotionally immature idiots and we need the guidance of someone ordained in something. — Vera Mont

Not at all. It's the simple fluid dynamics of social progress. People want happiness, and that requires ignorance. At least, minding one's own immediate affairs. Being one's brother's keeper is a stark burden to bear. Ignorance is not, in and of itself, some immoral quality, it's simply one the majority possesses and this fact needs to be acknowledged, is all. If human rights are so important, why don't we just let toddlers walk around free and unrestricted from the moment they're allowed to walk? Is it because we're cruel fascists with a desire to control and quell all human spirit and endeavor? No, it's because we don't want them to get hurt! And that is the basis of all kingly authority. Well, at least, it used to be, once upon a time. :grin:

But that's a tale for another day.

As by the Holy Emperor Donald I? Done! — Vera Mont

Someone told me once, if you have to pick an extreme example to make a counter-argument, perhaps you should consider listening more closely to what the person speaking to you has to say. :smirk:

It does, if the election is conducted properly by the currently government; that is, the process meet a pre-set standard for fair elections. That's what constitutions are made for. — Vera Mont

Oh all the laypeople want are their short-sighted desires met. The layperson seeks not truth but mere empty validation, and so finds neither. No matter how ridiculous and hazardous to all around or who will come after it may be. Literally F all to what comes later. Any real election you might as well offer each and every citizen a rope to hang themself. Because that's all they would ever accomplish without the educated, intelligent class to show them that impulse is not intuition, pleasure is not purpose, and childlike emotion is not passion or knowledge. Laypeople need to be governed. Immensely. Lest they die by their own hand -- or worse, forever live in a Hell of their own making.

It’s both, which is why the article on gender that I directed you to says “gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender.” — Michael

Well shoot why not a fourth gender? Or a fifth. Or a sixth. Or a 12th while we're at it! This is not slippery slope fallacy, this is what people will attempt to argue for. A limit must be drawn lest mankind wander forever lost in a dystopian deluge of his own making.

but the idea of sustainability in an ultimate sense; a sense that comes with the threat of human extinction - was not a concern until a post industrial era. — karl stone

What in the actual !@#$ does that have to do with anything? You don't have to think you're going to die if you don't do something to realize it might be of benefit to society and help men live better lives. Caring about what is vs. what could be transcends into several debates. "Leave well enough alone", "don't fix what ain't broke", etc. are some simplified examples.

This is where myself and other rational and educated folk might disagree. What proof do you have? That's simply where such written record post royal era becomes part of written history. What of it? Have you no concept of what monarchy is? No, of course not. It's quite clear.

Let me say this to you. Are we so positive you're not politically entranced to the point of denying yourself, and a result the fine viewers and spectators of this excellent arena, a larger, more important debate of self-control, restraint, and responsibility?

My assertion that 'environmentalism is based in Marxism and anti-capitalist degrowth' is slightly inaccurate. — karl stone

It is wholly, completely, and utterly inaccurate. A literal work of fiction and unfortunate delusion, for any who would partake such falsehood as fact. The concept that understanding the finite nature of this world and that it should be protected, predates any of the terms mentioned. Do you really think knowledge of the land and advocating for protection of one's productive capacity only came about in the 16th or 18th century?

Sure, during that time many societies were under strict rule, often kingdoms, which discouraged such free radical thought. So, coincidentally, such thoughts were not recorded or mainstream. Perhaps in that aspect there is some rationale to indirectly justify beliefs to the contrary. But not absolutely.

Surely, you cannot deny that the environmental cause has been taken up by the radical left as a critique of capitalism? — karl stone

As I've said multiple times, people have a tendency to "take up" anything that seems common sense to proliferate insanity and nonsense. Whether or not a just cause or fundamental ideal is currently or actively controlled, in a certain area, land, or territory, by people who could care less about the actual cause is not the issue. I mean, sure, it's a grave concern. But now we're changing the topic. Yet again. If you wish to make a topic about "are things intrinsic to human existence, whatever they may be, being used by those who have an agenda that is not about what they purport" or even simpler: "are people liars?", Sure. That's fine. And you should make a new thread on that. Meanwhile, we're discussing the current topic at hand as you've written it currently.

I'm still at a loss to understand your hostility. — karl stone

Hostility? My friend and dear sir, who I would love to perhaps one day meet and talk life over tea and scones, may I be so bold as to remind the good sir: this is a debate forum. Ideas are on the chopping block, to be attacked with whatever logical rationale one's mind is able to produce. Why would you think yourself any different and take such normal — mundane in these parts — criticism and expected pattern of discussion as "hostile?": That my friend is the definition of bizarre.

Let us circle back. I had a disagreement with what I believed to be a cornerstone or "rudimentary assertion" of your argument, and I made such known. Do you not believe the statement I quoted is fundamental to your discussion or would you be able to accept that, whether it may be right or wrong, factual or not, there's a deeper argument to be had? 'Tis all I wish to know, I assure ye. :grin: