The British people were misled when they voted to join the EEC, had they known that it was really an exercise in empire building they would never have voted to join. We are ahead of the game because we can see the direction of travel for the EU...an overbearing state apparatus that seeks ever greater control over the populace... and so we have voted to leave.

I know 2 people who work at a very high level in financial services. One of them voted for Brexit and the other for remain. The one who voted remain voted remain because of the fear of economic cost not love for the EU. Both of them could get work anywhere in the world without restriction, they do not need the EU for work. You will have no problems visiting or working in the UK in the future.

I used to like the idea of proportional representation but I have come to the conclusion that it would lead to unending compromise...it hasn't exactly made the EU positive in the eyes of many of its citizens has it? Funnily enough it led to a huge influx to the EU of Brexiteer politicians ...if other countries had done the same and sent Euro sceptic politicians the whole edifice would have possibly come to a standstill .First past the post means that British citizens get to see who exactly to blame and credit .The idea that they "lord it over " us is a joke ...the British are the most politician sceptic people in Europe , we think most of them are cunts...I hate my local Tory MP even though I voted for her!

Some German SME's...Volkswagen, Siemens, BASF, Bayer...plenty of buying power there. What do you think about the Germans flouting EU regulations and bailing out their manufacturing sector whilst the rest of the EU can't afford to?

Too busy mate...taking the dogs for a walk.:)

Completely agree.

There's a saying in England that if the Scots want independence let the English have a vote too...they'd be guaranteed independence.

I have a feeling that many Europeans are wilfully blind to the internal fault lines within the EU. Europeans like to be led , it's in their nature, the British however are naturally suspicious and doubtful of politicians ...we tend to think they couldn't organise a fuck in a whorehouse , so why would we want more of them, but hey-ho.

Even assuming there are going to be costs to the UK economy in relation to not getting a deal with the EU I'd be ok with that because I put national independence above pure financial gain...a financial gain that has costs of its own which I have pointed out.

I linked to a post earlier that showed Germany is already breaking EU rules to protect its manufacturing base...Italy and Spain can't afford to do that so guess who will be waiting in the wings to snap up Spanish and Italian companies... German companies. You Europeans never learn whereas the UK, especially England, is usually ahead of the game.

Just out of interest, are you Dutch? If so why do you care if the UK leaves?

Basically on paper there is a single market for services within the EU, however each country has different rules and regulations concerning services...for instance different countries recognise different qualifications. So in effect there is only a partial free market within the EU which means that countries like the UK which are overwhelmingly service industry economies do not fare as well as countries like Germany which primarily trade in manufactured goods.

A no deal Brexit may well negatively effect our trade with the EU, but it will also negatively effect EU trade with us. It's in both parties interests to come up with a sensible deal ...but I'd take no deal, I don't like the idea of the EU blackmailing us and in any case I think we can make up for any losses by trading more with the rest of the world. 80% of the world is not the EU after all.

The EU really is constructed for the benefit of Germany...but once the effects of this virus have played out that may well change .I really do think the EU is on borrowed time, this virus may well be the bail of straw that breaks the camel's back...but we shall see.

Three things,

1) It seems you can't imagine roofs other than tiled roofs.

2) Linking to an openly leftist organisation (LSE) as proof of how terrible the Tories are isn't in the slightest bit scientific or reasonable.

3) Poor people in the UK don't appear to be starving , in fact many of them look like they're eating like pigs.

There are "facts" and there are facts. The LSE is a leftist organisation that generates "facts" that back up its faulty political prejudices .I can not accept anything they generate as being truthful.

You leftists love "facts"...you generate them in the same way that horses generate manure.

Most intelligent thing I've read from you mate , cheers, I will.

Wash those spuds properly mate or you'll get diarrhoea.:)

Cheers mate...I was trying to imagine what you looked like .:) Some of the ideas were a bit rude though....

For people that don't know...the LSE was founded by fabians.

I don't like you either, so no probs.

...and using the LSE as proof of anything ...fuck me hang your head in shame...

Missed this , sorry.

Population growth combined with smaller family units (single occupants etc).

Funny thing about [mod edit: verbal diarrhoea follows].

Nice one Baden...you're almost a dictator here...your dreams are coming true in a very small way lol. You're still basically English though, that you can't change.:)

I mentioned that Oliver Cromwell ensured that most "Irish" are basically English.

Population decrease now will cause a population resurgence later when people begin to like living here again.

You do know what percentage of people that get the virus die , don't you? I think you'll find most old people will survive this...

The constant population growth idea would end in disaster for individual countries and the planet. Do you think these younger workers stay young forever? Other solutions to ageing populations must and are being found.

Something else...my wife works in a care home ...everyone that works there is British apart from one African born lady, 20 people work there...so much for Brits not willing to do dirty jobs hey.

Complete BS. The Uk is over populated and mechanisation means many menial jobs will be done by machines over time (taxi driving for instance).The idea that an ever expanding population is a good thing is utter madness.

I don't "put tiles on a roof".

The cost of living is not on the rise with all goods and services...for instance most people can afford electrical appliances that older generations could only dream of, food's got cheaper in real terms cars are cheaper in real terms . One of the biggest cost growths has been in housing, and guess what causes the cost of housing to go up? Increased population and smaller family groups.

As it happens I have never blamed immigrants for coming here, but let's not pretend that the huge, unprecedented, scale of immigration hasn't caused severe issues ...pull your head out of the sand.

I'm not from up north...nor am I a socialist. Me and you couldn't be more different in our outlooks. My whole life has been one of physical labour (apart from now lol) , I've probably shifted thousands of tons with my body, that has helped keep me in touch with reality...I doubt if you have done much more than "push a pen"... but, tbh, I don't care.

It will be far easier for us to form trade deals with smaller nations than it will be to get a sensible one with an empire that is more concerned with preserving itself as a post-democratic political entity than the well being of its citizens.

The EU is a good trading partner to a point...obviously they sell us a lot more than we sell them and there was not an open market for UK services in Europe. Given that we are a service driven economy that's not a great deal for us ...but a great one for the likes of German car manufacturers. It was a badly balanced deal. Also , as I've shown, it looks like Germany is in for a bad time with its banking sector in a mess and its manufacturing sector about to get blown to bits by this virus...the UK on the other hand isn't as dependent on exports as Germany...last time I looked exports made up about 15% of our economy, for Germany it was about 60%. If Germany has an economic crash it's hard to see how the EU will be financed.

Foreign investment in this country is a double edged sword. The Chinese have bought vast tracts of London real estate...not so great I'd argue...but I'm not against foreign companies creating jobs by "saving" our manufacturing here provided they don't just do it as a cover to "steal" our ideas or to asset strip.

According to this we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world and about £28 billion more over all trade ...so don't intimate that I'm a liar.

Where have I lied? Point my lies out to me or shut the fuck up.

Another EU worshipper I take it lol.

Total BS, some countries are not as aggressive in their counting methods...do you remember the Germans counting methods with their diesel emissions? You can't trust these numbers...if anything the UK government is deliberately counting people dying with rather than because of. I heard on the radio the other day that a chap involved in a serious car accident , in a critical condition , died of his injuries...but he happened to have the virus so his was a covid 19 death.

I think it is despicable that people like you seek to blame Western governments for a Chinese crime ...it says a lot about your ilk.

When people talk about UK trade they like to say that EU trade is greater than US trade with the UK. That is true to a degree but we have a greater trade surplus with the US...but more importantly it totally ignores the fact that the UK does and can trade with the rest of the world.

A few facts...

The UK has more trade with China than Spain...and in both cases the trade involves twice as much coming to the UK than going out.

The UK sells twice as much to the US as we do to Germany.

We trade more with Japan than we do with Sweden.

We have more trade with Hong Kong than we do with Poland.

We have more trade , and sell more to, South Korea than we do with Denmark.

Sweden and Ireland are the only EU countries that we have a trade surplus with.

We have more trade with Taiwan than Romania.

More trade with Thailand than Greece.

More trade with Russian than the Czech republic.

In reality the UK trades more with the rest of the world than we do with the EU...and on top of that there is far more potential for growth.

As an aside , I was in Berlin last year and happened to walk into a very large department store. I went to the huge cheese counter, hundreds of cheeses from around the world...just one little piece of Stilton in the whole stinking pile. It said a lot to me about how much Europeans like us and our culture...just one little piece of evidence.

The extent of this lockdown is an example of the risk averse, feminised society that we have become. The whole point of the lockdown was not to overwhelm the nhs, it isn't overwhelmed so time to loosen up restrictions ...like your mates the Swedes.

I am not a massive Tory fan , they are just the best of what's available. I don't trust any politician. As an example , all this talk about having a tracer app is pathetic, it's a sign that these people are out of touch with reality...just not as out of touch as the labour/limp dick clowns.

There is this obsession with pro-EU'ers with us needing to get a deal...we don't need one. Our biggest single trading partner is the US and we actually have a trade surplus with them...but no trade deal. I'd like us to increase our trade with the US and level it out more (so import more from them) in order to replace trade with the EU .Much of what we import from the EU can be sourced elsewhere , if they want to play hardball with us they are going to lose their Treasure Island.

At least you are tacitly admitting that there are billionaires on your side...not very nice ones at that.

It would have been a piece of piss to leave the EU...apart from the fact that our political/media class did all in their power to block it..those that blocked it are anti-democratic scum. That's another down-tick for the EU...anti-democrats love it.

Wanting to use eastern Europeans as cheap slave labour isn't a nice trait mate.

The modern face of the left...

Here's an article from a few months back from one of the EU's biggest billionaire fans...he's worried about its future...good news!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/eu-soviet-union-european-elections-george-soros

One of the running themes in this thread is the jealousy of the pro-EU leftists . There is a real hatred for those that earn or have a lot of wealth...they very easily forget that many of the leading EUers are extremely rich too. So it's ok to attack Mogg, but no negative words about Blair, it would be ok to attack Dyson but not Gates...it's ok to bleat on about workers rights but sweep under that rug the fact that many thousands who work for the EU earn more than the "toff Tory scum" Johnson.

It's almost as if the fans of a vast bureaucracy of very well paid officials and its billionaire supporters are being a bit two-faced ...

It all depends how you conceive of "nothing". If you break the word down to "no" and "thing" then it is possible that it describes chaos where no thing has formed, nothing to point at so to speak. However chaos is a source of potential for somethingness, it just requires will to organise it.

I think it is easier to think of chaotic non-linear thinking becoming organised as concepts bump into each other...as concepts bump into each other more will forms and the process accelerates. Hope that helps.:)

I'm with you on this one mate, it's almost as if something deeper is happening. Saying that I'm not against elements of social distancing whilst this is ongoing and keeping the vulnerable isolated (within reason), but I fail to see why we are not following Sweden...for once they seem to be showing a bit of commonsense.

One theory that interests me is that global banking was on the verge of collapse just before this pandemic...but I'm not in a position to know whether that is true.
.

I see the EU as part of a process of tying up big politics with big business, it's becoming a form of soft fascism .The EU works against small business by burying them in paperwork and expensive legislation. For instance, imo, much of the health and safety regulation around the construction industry is more about raising costs for small business than the safety of workers. It squeezes the small businesses into a position where they can't price for big jobs they can only bind themselves into low profit ,high risk, sub-contract work. That's why the big construction companies basically run a cartel.

I wouldn't necessarily do away with any part of UK government as it stands, though I'd make sure there are strict rules in place to ensure government does not expand beyond what is necessary...that could include doing away with public funded quangos , doing away with foreign aid unless it is direct humanitarian need.

The thing about the NHS puzzles me. I'm 53 now so I have had the misfortune of watching some of my older relatives die in the care of the NHS...it was not nice. The rest of Europe seems to do fine without it, at least no worse than us.I'm not the sort of person who bangs pots and pans for NHS workers put it that way. As for the armed forces ,it's one area I'd expand. 1) It makes the country safer, 2) it's a great place for young people to train and learn self-discipline... you'd probably find that countries with compulsory services have better over all youth behaviour...Britain can be a bit of a zoo on Saturday night.

In the UK working class people call everyone mate, even if they think they're dicks.

I'm not your buddy, mate.