I already responded to this. It's the sequence 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, ..., accompanied by the vocalizations 1, 2, 3, ... Every member of the sequence gets traversed, every natural number gets vocalized. — fishfry
Feel free to give a reference, else I can't respond. — fishfry
What conclusions are we to draw from this rather heady mixture of genies, machines, lamps, and fair and foul numbers? In particular, has it been shown that super-tasks are really possible – that, in Russell's words, they are at most medically and not logically impossible? Of course not. In a part of his paper that I did not discuss, Thomson does a nice job of destroying the arguments of those who claim to prove that super-tasks are logically possible; had there been time I should have examined them. In the preceding section I tried to do the same for Thomson's own neo-Eleatic arguments. I think it should be clear that, just as Thomson did not establish the impossibility of super-tasks by destroying the arguments of their defenders, I did not establish their possibility by destroying his (supposing that I did destroy them).
This is just a re-iteration of your previous post, which does not address which premise you disagree with. — Bob Ross
In terms of your “P3”, I responded here. — Bob Ross
"I believe one ought not torture babies" is NOT a moral proposition: the moral proposition is that "one ought not torture babies". — Bob Ross
C1: Therefore, a belief cannot make a proposition true or false.
Thomson's first argument, concerning the lamp, is short, imaginative, and compelling. It appears to demonstrate that "completing a super-task" is a self-contradictory concept. Let me reproduce it here:
There are certain reading-lamps that have a button in the base. If the lamp is off and you press the button the lamp goes on, and if the lamp is on and you press the button, the lamp goes off. So if the lamp was originally off and you pressed the button an odd number of times, the lamp is on, and if you pressed the button an even number of times the lamp is off. Suppose now that the lamp is off, and I succeed in pressing the button an infinite number of times, perhaps making one jab in one minute, another jab in the next half minute, and so on. ... After I have completed the whole infinite sequence of jabs, i.e. at the end of the two minutes, is the lamp on or off? ... It cannot be on, because I did not ever turn it on without at once turning it off. It cannot be off, because I did in the first place turn it on, and thereafter I never turned it off without at once turning it on. But the lamp must be either on or off. This is a contradiction.
Rarely are we presented with an argument so neat and convincing. This one has only one flaw. It is invalid. Let us see why. Consider the following two descriptions:
A. Aladdin starts at t0 and performs the super-task in question just as Thomson does. Let t1 be the first instant after he has completed the whole infinite sequence of jabs – the instant about which Thomson asks "Is the lamp on or off?" – and let the lamp be on at t1.
B. Bernard starts at t0 and performs the super-task in question (on another lamp) just as Aladdin does, and let Bernard's lamp be off at t1.
I submit that neither description is self-contradictory, or, more cautiously, that Thomson's argument shows neither description to be self-contradictory (although possibly some other argument might).
We have seen that in each case the arguments were invalid, that they required for their validation the addition of a premise connecting the state of the machine or lamp or what have you at the ωth moment with its state at some previous instant or set of instants. The clearest example is that of the lamp, where we can derive a contradiction only by explicitly assuming as an additional premise that a statement describing the state of the lamp (with respect to being on or off ) after all the switchings is a logical consequence of the statements describing its state during the performance of the super-task.
C1: Therefore, a belief cannot make a proposition true or false. — Bob Ross
You can't play it in reverse — fishfry
I believe you have agreed with me. — fishfry
No, once again you recited the natural numbers in ascending order. — fishfry
It means that is isn't a finite sequence of operations. — noAxioms
By definition, the sequence completes by having every operation occurring before some finite time. — noAxioms
If you mean that it doesn't complete, it by definition does in a finite time. If you mean that it has no terminal step, then you're making the mistake I identify just above since the definition does not require one. — noAxioms
You also wield the term 'ad infinitum', — noAxioms
That's all very well. But it also takes us back to the question what this "operation" actually is. — Ludwig V
I've given solid a mathematical argument that your 60 second puzzle guarantees that all the numbers will be spoken. — fishfry
7/8 will do just fine. I necessarily had to jump over all but finitely members of the sequence. — fishfry
I go 1 at 60, 2 at 30, etc.
Name the first number that I fail to count
Third time I'm asking you the question.
This is a standard inductive argument. If it's impossible to name the first natural number at which a property fails to hold, the property must hold for all natural numbers.
Please give this argument some thought. — fishfry
In your opinion. But you have no proof or evidence. On the contrary, the mathematics is clear. — fishfry
But counting backward from infinity is always finite! I showed you how that works, counting backward from 1 in the ordered set <1/2, 3/4, 7/8, ..., 1> — fishfry
Did I not move you, surprise you, convince you, that if you count 1, 2, 3, ... successively halving the time intervals, that you will indeed count every single natural number in finite time? If not, why not? — fishfry
But counting backward from infinity is always finite! I showed you how that works, counting backward from 1 in the ordered set <1/2, 3/4, 7/8, ..., 1> — fishfry
It's easy, I'll do it right here on a public Internet forum.
1, 15/16, 7/8, 3/4, 1/2. Done.
That's because the first step backward from any limit ordinal necessarily jumps over all but finitely members of the sequence whose limit it is. — fishfry
I don't know what you mean that supertasks are nonterminating by definition. — fishfry
You did lose me when you said that counting 0, 1, 2, ... is "counting down from infinity." I did not understand that example when you gave it earlier. Mathematically, the ordered set <1, 2, 3, ...> exists, all at once. Its counting is completed the moment it's invoked into existence by the axiom of infinity. — fishfry
Well ok, then why don't I complete a supertask when I walk across the room, first going halfway, etc.? Can you distinguish this case from your definition? — fishfry
* You have not convinced me or even made me understand your reasoning that supertasks are "metaphysically impossible" or that they entail a logical contradiction. — fishfry
He does. Most of the paper focuses on rationalizing low probabilities for the first two premises to the point of 3 being likely. — noAxioms
A technologically mature “posthuman” civilization would have enormous computing power. Based on this empirical fact, the simulation argument shows that at least one of the following propositions is true: (1) The fraction of human‐level civilizations that reach a posthuman stage is very close to zero; (2) The fraction of posthuman civilizations that are interested in running ancestor‐simulations is very close to zero; (3) The fraction of all people with our kind of experiences that are living in a simulation is very close to one.
If (1) is true, then we will almost certainly go extinct before reaching posthumanity. If (2) is true, then there must be a strong convergence among the courses of advanced civilizations so that virtually none contains any relatively wealthy individuals who desire to run ancestor‐simulations and are free to do so. If (3) is true, then we almost certainly live in a simulation. In the dark forest of our current ignorance, it seems sensible to apportion one’s credence roughly evenly between (1), (2), and (3).
Point is, you are misstating Bostrom's premises. Item 3 doesn't follow from the premises as you word them. — noAxioms
Could you give me an example of two incompatible mathematical systems? — Tarskian
But I couldn't see why Bostrom thought that one of those three must be true. — Ludwig V
I find both these to be highly unlikely, for the reason stated in this topic and mine. Bostrom of course has motivation to rationalize a higher probability for both of these, but rationalizing is not being rational. — noAxioms
I'm only asking how far 1,1 is from 1,2 in a discrete space system. As far as I can tell, it's 0 units, right? — Hanover
The problem is adjacency. If object A is adjacent to object B on a finite grid, what is the distance from A to B? If it's 0 units, then A and B occupy the same space and A = B. — Hanover
However, the thing measured is the passage of time which occurs. — Metaphysician Undercover
If it's at L-1 at T-1 and L-2 at T-2, how long did it take to get from L-1 to L-2? — Hanover
Assuming at the most microscopic level, the object is on an 8x8 chessboard. The pawn moves from e2 to e3. There is no e2.1 or other smaller increments in this finite world. At T1 it's at e2 and T30 it's at e3. The assumption is that at some point in time, it was no where while transitioning (moving?) from e2 to e3. — Hanover
Acquaintance primarily concerns knowledge. — Luke
The direct/indirect realism dispute primarily concerns sensory perception — Luke
My usage is consistent. Indirect realists equivocate over the meaning of "perception", using it to mean both the sensory perception of external objects and the Russellian acquaintance of mental representations. — Luke
Except your explanation of what indirect realists believe is that our perceptions of material objects are not mediated by the perception of some other entity, which is therefore not indirect realism. — Luke
That our perceptions of material objects are mediated by the perception of some other entity, such as sense-data. — Luke