I see the distinction you made as weak — AmadeusD

So you've claimed.

Which distinction?

I would like a conceptual analysis of the difference between the three cases... — AmadeusD

I've given a brief causal history as well as an in depth enough elemental constituency.

In all three cases we're experiencing the event of 'looking at an object we apprehend as a pen which will write with red ink", right? — AmadeusD

There are no red pens in hallucinations and/or dreams thereof.

None. This is literally something I am asking you to address. You drew the distinction. — AmadeusD

What distinction do you think I drew?

When do you actually 'see' a Red pen?
— AmadeusD

When 'you' have biological machinery close enough to our own. — creativesoul

This is unfortunately, quite unhelpful. That obtains in all three cases and provides no basis to delineate. — AmadeusD

We already drew and maintained the distinctions between seeing, hallucinating, and dreaming?

Those still hold.

They all include biological machinery. They do not all count as seeing a red pen. Please keep up.

Given that we only call the pen 'red' by convention, can this particular difference (realistically, the proximity to the trigger (whereas dreaming is far askance)) really do much lifting? — AmadeusD

What difference are you drawing/maintaining? If it's unacceptably weak, then why mention it?

When do you actually 'see' a Red pen? — AmadeusD

When 'you' have biological machinery close enough to our own.

There are very different basic elemental constituents. Red pens, while playing a causal role in all three, do not play the role of elemental constituent in all three. There are no red pens in dreams and/or hallucinations of them.

cause differs — AmadeusD

Yup.

Seeing red pens is an experience that is partially caused by red pens. Hallucinating and dreaming red pens are experiences partially caused by seeing red pens. Hallucinating and dreaming red pens are partially caused by red pens.

The broader methodological point is that philosophical dichotomies such as subject/object. subjective/objective, internal/external, private/public are difficult to maintain on close examination
— Banno
— apokrisis

Those dichotomies cannot properly account for that which is both. Some experience consists of both subject and object, internal and external things. All talk of experience is both, public and private.

That's the broader point that came to my mind. The inherent inadequacy of those dichotomies to be able to take sensible account of all human experience.

What counts as the bare minimum criterion for what counts as being an experience?

For starters, I say it must be meaningful to the creature having the experience. We must be able to say how.








I asked what the difference was between seeing red stuff, hallucinating red stuff, and dreaming red stuff, .

"Nothing" was your reply.

Of course, smart ass. What we call something is not equivalent to causation.

We know what causes seeing red. What causes hallucinations and dreams of red?

What causes hallucinations of red?

The percept that occurs when we hallucinate red is the percept that occurs when we dream red is the percept that optical stimulation by 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur.

Or if you prefer, the neural activity that is responsible for dreaming red is the neural activity that is responsible for hallucinating red is the neural activity that optical stimulation by 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur.

When this neural activity occurs when asleep we call it a dream. When this neural activity occurs when awake but not in response to optical stimulation we call it an hallucination. When this neural activity occurs when awake and in response to optical stimulation we call it a non-hallucinatory waking experience. — Michael

So then, there is a difference between seeing red, hallucinating red, and dreaming red. Hence, if they all include "the mental percept", and yet they are distinct, then it only follows that the notion of the "mental percept" is inadequate/insufficient for explaining those differences.

Pretty much what I just did. :wink:

Ever read/listen to Robert Reich?

Raising the cap on taxable social security income levels would more than fix the problem. Only those who benefit the most would see a SS tax increase. Somewhere around 175K yearly.

On this view you're advocating for, you're clearly stating that there is no difference between seeing, hallucinating, and dreaming.
— creativesoul

I didn’t say that. — Michael

What's the difference between seeing red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?
— creativesoul

Nothing. — Michael

And what's the difference between hallucinating red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?

Or between dreaming red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?
— creativesoul

Nothing. — Michael

Sigh.

Now the word "red" is no longer in books, on paper, spoken aloud for everyone to hear, or on our screens... it exists only in the mind.

Perfect.

Oh brother...

Well, there are certain groupings of nerves(specific parts of the nervous system) that do different stuff than others. If certain biological structures are always active while urinating, it does not make urinating equivalent to the structures.

That seems to apply equally to C4 fibres and pain as well as V4 and seeing red.

If the biological machinery behaves in a certain way when one looks at a red pen, and yet also behaves the exact same way when there is no red pen, then we have a hallucination(malfunction).

If the biological machinery acts as though one is looking at a red pen, but it is doing so while one is sleeping, it's causing one to dream about a red pen. Again, there is no red pen.

Red pens are always included in seeing red pens, but they are never included in hallucinating or dreaming about them.

Sure, the biological machinery acts the same. That's not an issue.

What's the difference between seeing red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?
— creativesoul

Nothing. — Michael

And what's the difference between hallucinating red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?

Or between dreaming red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?
— creativesoul

Nothing. — Michael

Well, there we have it. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. On this view you're advocating for, you're clearly stating that there is no difference between seeing, hallucinating, and dreaming. Yet, there most certainly is. This is all very odd, considering that earlier you professed one of the reasons for holding that view was because it explained hallucinations, dreams, and seeing. What you call an explanation, I would call a confusion. There are differences between seeing red, hallucinating red, and dreaming red.

Reductio ad absurdum is adequate for rejecting the position you're arguing from/for. Equivocation is as well. Self-contradiction is also. I've neither the time, nor the inclination to show those again. You've sorely neglected to directly address those charges, in lieu of low hanging fruit.

What's the difference between seeing red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?
— creativesoul

Nothing — Michael

And what's the difference between hallucinating red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?

Or between dreaming red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?

I think I've seen enough here. Thanks for the interesting discussion/thoughts.

Be well.

We can, and do, use the phrase "red part of the visible spectrum" to mean "620-750nm light". Pens do reflect 620-750nm light, and so we can, and do, say that pens reflect the red part of the visible spectrum of light. — Michael

Then you're equivocating. Earlier you've put forth the claim that light has no color. The visible spectrum is light. Red is a color.

Color, according to you, is a mental percept... nothing more. The visible spectrum is not.

Sure seeing a red pen is not equivalent to a red pen. Moreover, seeing red is not equivalent to red. That's a problem as well.

If red is just a part of the light spectrum (x to x frequencies) that's fine — AmadeusD

Well. If red is part of the light spectrum, and certain things reflect that range, and we're capable of detecting that range, that's how we see red things. They would be reflecting that range even if we were not looking. That seems a problem for the view I've been reading from Michael, and I presumed(perhaps mistakenly?) you're in agreement with his view as shared here in this thread.

If red is part of the light spectrum, and red is a color, then light has/is color. That's a problem for Michael.

We can, and do, use the phrase "red part of the visible spectrum" to mean "620-750nm light". Pens do reflect 620-750nm light, and so we can, and do, say that pens reflect the red part of the visible spectrum of light.

But this isn't our ordinary conception of the colour red. Our ordinary conception of the colour red is that of the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur. This is how we can make sense of coloured dreams and hallucinations, of synesthesia, of variations in colour perception (such as the dress), and of scientific studies like this. — Michael

Is that the only way to make sense of those things mentioned?

What's the difference between seeing red and the mental percept that 620-750nm light ordinarily causes to occur?

my mind creates a red experience for me in response to a(in this case, a very specific) frequency of light reflected of a cooked sugar surface. It isn't in the Skittle. — AmadeusD

So, you and Michael are claiming that the properties/features/physical characteristics regardng the surface layer of red pens cause us to see color, and the color is nothing more than a mental event/phenomena.

Things reflecting certain ranges of the visible spectrum cause us to see red, or green, or violet. That seeing of color, according to you, is nothing but a mental phenomena.

Rather than claim that the pen is reflecting the red part of the visible spectrum causing us to see red, you'd rather say that there is no red part of the visible spectrum, rather there are certain ranges that cause us to see red.

Is that about right?

My point about the scanner is that it cannot detect colour. — AmadeusD

It detects what we've named "red", despite not having mental events.

Just off the cuff absurd conclusions following from the idea that color is nothing more than a mental/psychological event.

There is no red in the spectrum. — AmadeusD

Not a Skittles fan, huh? Taste the rainbow, except the rainbow has no colors.

The range we've named "red" cause us to see red, but there is no red in the range.

Excellent.

Yeah. Seems there are some rather absurd conclusions lurking hereabouts.

Prisms do not refract the light into the visible spectrum, or the visible spectrum is colorless.

Rainbows have no color.

"Mental percept"

Occam's razor.

What's being explained by the invocation of "mental percept" that cannot be explained without it?

Frequencies of light are not color... according to those I'm arguing against.

Did science abandon the visible spectrum? The infrared? The ultraviolet?

:brow:

There's something awefully funny going on in here.

Science has led to automation capable of color matching nearly any surface presented to its scanner. It does so to near perfection. Funny how that can happen if color is psychological/mental and nothing more.

Automation can mix physical pigments to perfectly match the color sample.

The scanner cannot see/detect/perceive color if color is nothing more than neural/psychological events.

Sounds peaceful to me. The wrong cat, huh? I've been fortunate enough to have never owned the wrong one. He no like you, or you no like him?

:wink:

Cheers. That's what I do for living. Fortunate enough to be able to choose something I love to do. I am living well in that regard.

I hope you are as well!

:smile: