Don't count on it. Prepare to welcome (more) fascism in 2025.

How about personal experience like a near - death?

Do you practically, or nominally? It certainly was the intention that the 5 year interim period would be used for negotiations for a permanent government of Palestine. If you mean practically, yeah well... look where we are. :'( — Kenosha Kid

From wiki (not my favourite source but since it confirms what I remembered from my studies I'll use it):

The Oslo Accords created a Palestinian Authority tasked with limited self-governance of parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip; and acknowledged the PLO as Israel's partner in permanent-status negotiations about remaining questions. The most important questions relate to the borders of Israel and Palestine, Israeli settlements, the status of Jerusalem, Israel's military presence in and control over remaining territories after Israel's recognition of Palestinian autonomy, and the Palestinian right of return. The Oslo Accords, however, did not create a Palestinian state. — Wiki

Now, if you look at the specific details the end result would never be called a Palestinian state due to no control of borders, air space or waters and, I believe, but I can't find a reference right now, no control of their economy.

The language is the interim period doesn't talk about the end result being a State either. More like an autonomous region. Like Kosovo I suppose.

It was a huge achievement to get Israel to recognise the PLO as the legitimate negotiator for a future state of Palestine: the Palestinian side was not a problem here until 2006 afaik. — Kenosha Kid

The end result of Rabin and Arafat was not going to be a Palestinian State though.

No, I think you've misunderstood. — Kenosha Kid

We see in the second link (can't read the first as I reached my limit) that the recognition is a prerequisite for aid and is about Hamas' charter. — Benkei

?

It's a simplistic-seeming summary, but I suspect it's the thick end of the wedge. Or rather Hamas came to power in the first place as a reaction to that. I think Hamas itself is just another bloodthirsty jihadist nutjob organisation, a sort of Palestinian Trump monster emerging like a cry of desperation from a thwarted people with no good options. — Kenosha Kid

Hamas was also democratically elected. The terrorist designation and unwillingness to deal with them is, as Italian foreign minister said in 2007 "not a good lesson in democracy". Hamas has a terrorist wing but also provides aid, runs hospitals and is a political party. Kind of like the IRA and Sinn Fein.

We also need to see through the ploy of submitting demands to enter into negotiations. In some rounds to start negotiations, the recognition of Israel was a requisite to start negotiations. We see in the second link (can't read the first as I reached my limit) that the recognition is a prerequisite for aid and is about Hamas' charter. Hamas consistently says Israel's status and recognition is subject to negotiation and should be part of it, so they will always reject what the PLO did : recognise the State of Israel before negotiations start. They will not recognise Israel's right to exist in their charter because of this. I do think people read too much into that because It's about territory and we know Israel doesn't recognise Palestine either and Likud's charter pretty much denies establishing Palestine too. It shouldn't be a barrier to negotiations either way.

Probably 2007 when Hamas rejected entering into negotiations to begin with right after winning elections? It doesn't seem a Palestinian state was on the table then as Arab States were still pushing that the Arab peace plan should form the basis of talks. Any way, I'll wait until you find it.

It is true, by the way, that they've rejected all the Camp David and Oslo Accords because those didn't establish a sovereign state and probably didn't adequately deal (in their view) with Jerusalem and the right of return.

c) adherence to prior agreements from future governments of a state of Palestine — Kenosha Kid

I have no recollection of this or Hamas refusing this. They weren't part of the negotiations during the summit and the Camp David Accords (much older than the summit) was when Hamas wasn't a player. Do you have a link to it somewhere?

Even so, Hamas has changed from their original more extremist views to more moderate views. And I don't think serious peace talks were had since 2008, when it was the first time they communicated a possibility for peace along the 1967 borders and right of return.

Enough people want this conflict to go on. Especially the religious fanatics. People can have this strange discussion of who is morally more justified than the other in a long conflict like this. A better discussion would be how the conflict could be ended. Without the virtue signaling. — ssu

The problem is that there's a lot of misinformation out there that is a barrier to a fair and just solution. Peace brokers like the USA aren't good brokers for peace due to the persistent bias existing about Israel's role in the conflict and policy choices where they give billions to Israel. You can't negotiate peace if only one side's security is taken seriously when in fact it's the other side getting killed.

I'm not a Hamas supporters, I'm anti your continuous attempts at distractions. Your whining about Hamas rings hollow in light of Israel's administrative detentions and torture.

Educate yourself : https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention

I think you might be referring to the Camp David Summit of 2000, where the Palestinians forwarded a Palestinian State but since nothing really was put in writing and both camps blamed the other for a breakdown of the negotiations, I can't really tell what the end of that was and whether Israel was ok with Palestinian sovereignty. It didn't end up in the concluding trilateral statement, which says something.

But that is precisely what they've refused to agree to, along with, on the establishment of a Palestinian state, the government of that state ceasing hostilities against Israel. — Kenosha Kid

I'm not sure this is correct. When was this on the table during the Oslo Accords? As far as I know it has never been on the table to recognise a Palestinian State from the Israeli side. Please provide documentation if you think otherwise but I think you're confusing the recognition of Israel of the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people with a broader recognition.

Hamas has consciously put itself at odds with peace as an ideal and the mutually agreed conditions of the two-state solution. — Kenosha Kid

an entity that a) refuses to accept peace as a condition of a peace treaty and b) refuses to acknowledge the existence of the other state. — Kenosha Kid

Let me add some to this because people forget a few aspects. Israel doesn't recognise a Palestinian State either and even when Rabin and Arafat got close, Palestine would not be a State but an "autonomous region". The refusal to recognise Israel mirrors Israel's refusal to recognise a Palestinian State. And from a negotiation perspective this also makes sense because by recognising a State the right to land is automatically recognised. And in the end territory is a very important aspect of the negotiations.

Hamas has explicitly stated, several times since 2008 in fact, that "[it] considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

I'm confident if this is achieved that Hamas too, will recognise Israel as a State because then the borders, Palestinian rights and status of Jerusalem would be agreed so there's no risk in recognising the other party as sovereign. They've been clear that their resistance is not against Jews but against zionism even though the status of Jerusalem is also clearly a religious issue.

I was trying to frame the issue in a constructive, forward-looking way and Benkei, for whatever reason, refocuses the discussion exclusively on Israel. It's ridiculous to me because it implies that Hamas and the PA are either non-existent (or don't matter) or are Israeli puppets - neither of which are true. The PA and Hamas are the direct regional governments of the Palestinian people. They are quite relevant and play an active role in the daily lives of Palestinians. — BitconnectCarlos

There's nothing constructive about trying to direct attention away from Israeli oppression, annexation and colonialism. Hamas' crimes against their own is a drop in the ocean of the violence perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians. Until you are capable of fully recognising the extent of Israeli crimes there is simply no use looking beyond it. And in light of your "trip around the world" of tu quoque earlier in this thread, I have no faith that's anything genuine about this.

As to constructive solutions. I have repeatedly said what such solution looks like. It's 1967 borders with right of return. Especially for those Palestinians effectively deported from their homes in East Jerusalem, which to this day cannot leave the country and return to their own homes. The deportation of Palestinians continues.

It's also funny how you point out the lack of objectivity in this situation and couldn't understand a white European could be "in favour" of Palestinians. You seem to continually fail to understand that the impartial, I have no horse in this race other than a respect for humanity, judgment is this - it's based on principles such as international law and human rights. I understand this is very far from the propaganda you've been spoon fed from birth, but there it is. And when you realise I have a no relation, I'm all of a sudden judgmental. Indeed I am. Who else has to render judgment but an outsider precisely because those with ties to the region can't be objective?

I'll notice that except for a few diaspora Jews nobody seems to have defended Israel here. And other than Khaled I think they're mostly white males from western countries.

This is difficult to do as Hamas will arrest Palestinians who attempt to reach out to Israelis.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-gaza-activists/hamas-releases-palestinian-peace-activists-arrested-after-zoom-call-with-israelis-idUSKBN27B2JU

These peace meetings are considered treason by Hamas. — BitconnectCarlos

.
Hmm... Due process afforded after being charged with an actual crime according to local law. That's already a step up from the "administrative" detention of Israel where no charge is laid and Palestinians are in prison for months and sometimes even years. Try again...

I am speaking here as a Jew, not as an "objective" observer here. I don't think there is such a thing as a truly objective observer. Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos

Kind of hard to tell when you're speaking as a Jew in the same paragraph but you can transpose my comment to whoever thinks that ought to be part of a cultural identity.

I'm at a total loss what "tirades" I have brought here but OK. I've consistently repeated that what he brings up is irrelevant because there's no excusing the racism in Israel or war crimes committed by it. I've repeated this for 50 pages and at some point I start omitting the argumentation because I already offered that several times over.

But this is, I guess, typical, if you don't have an argument, you can always play the victim. Now where have we seen that before...

ah so you admit you're a racist then. OK, that's solved then, you're no longer worth my time. Buh-bye!

Nothing you said is a justification for how Palestinians are currently treated.

Israel does not get to play the victim card in a situation where it is the perpetrator. You keep trying it, it's still wrong and it makes you sound like an utter &@&$ for continually bringing irrelevant shit up.

Reparations have no bearing on war crimes.

Are you white or are you an Arab, because if you're a white non-muslim I have no idea what causes you to read history this way. If you're an Arab muslim it makes sense. — BitconnectCarlos

It's funny how you think this has anything to do with anything. You're the only one that thinks my skin-colour, religion or ethnicity has any relevance here... which is pretty racist I guess.

Jews are still bitter at the Romans for that. — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe get a life?

But in any case, nothing, absolutely nothing, that you have mentioned justifies Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

The religious claim to the land needs to be relegated to the rubbish bin where it belongs. It has no place in law or ethics.

Yes, and we've already been there with the 2000 Camp David Accords. The Israelis offered that and Arafat rejected. — BitconnectCarlos

God, next to being uncritical you're also poorly informed.

You're referring to the Camp David Summit and Israel never offered the 1967 borders at all. Palestinians offered several concessions such as land for land to break the impasse. And the idea that the Israelis are magnanimous for returning land that they stole is the typical Orwellian turn that should be resisted. It is not courageous when you're doing things you're supposed to do. You don't get a fucking sticker for giving up the proceeds of a crime.

As Norman Finkelstein wrote: "Judged from the perspective of Palestinians' and Israelis' respective rights under international law, all the concessions at Camp David came from the Palestinian side, none from the Israeli side."

7. A new study claims that researchers have found ‘unique fingerprints’ in Covid-19 samples that they say could only have arisen from manipulation in a laboratory. — Apollodorus

Interesting. The "prima facie" is a disclaimer on their evidence though and after the study that said it couldn't have been engineered I'm going to say, let's wait and see.

yawn. You can keep trying to move the goal posts but in the end you basically don't have an argument why what Israel is doing is justified.

It's not an either or issue. Holding Israel accountable yes, withdrawing aid that's undeserved, boycotts etc. are all instruments the international community should employ to force Israel to give up its Apartheid regime, end the occupation, negotiate a two state solution in good faith etc. Everything necessary to save the Palestinians and create a safe and stable Palestine next to to Israel. I find it rather disingenuous for you to pretend I'm not the one interested in peace where you're the one who's continually defending atrocities, eg. perfectly happy with things continuing the way they are because your see no real problem.

It's not about framing. Nothing about framing changes the moral responsibility of Israel, and it chooses to oppress, settle and annex. Nothing about the "framing" introduces a justification for such criminal acts. It's just misdirection under the guise of pretending the problem is complex. It's not. The morality is crystal clear.

No sane person would argue an act justified because of something that happened over 2 millenia, yet here we are.

What is the current source of the oppression of the Palestinians? The answer to that would be Israel and Hamas and the PA, but also the Arab countries which are complicit in not helping their fellow Arabs. To only focus on one of these sources skews the conversation. — BitconnectCarlos

No, this is not the issue. The contributory negligence or guilt of other parties does not excuse Israeli war crimes.

You're telling me Andrew4Handlel is the only person in the discussion who is outside of the overton window and who I agree with? — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, you seem to vascillate between reasonableness and defending the indefensible.

I almost never see Egypt or Jordan or how Hamas treats its own people discussed. If someone does introduce Hamas oppressing its own people it's always either me or Andrew. I cannot remember the last time I heard Egypt or Jordan or Qatar mentioned here. Afghanistan and Iraq are only relevant because of the west's involvement. — BitconnectCarlos

The only reason you bring up Hamas is as a red herring in this thread. "But they do it too!" As if that makes everything ok.

If you want to discuss Hamas, start a thread on it and then every time you point out something they did I'll just say: "Yeah, but Israel did this therefore totally legit!". Or maybe I won't... I suspect you barely know anything about Hamas since you were obviously not aware they've already stated multiple times they'd accept the 1967 borders as a compromise.

As the Dutch virologist who visited Wuhan as part of the WHO mission stated, "this is not a matter for scientists to review but for intelligence communities".

It's their job to decide whether there are actual clues that the lab escape theory can be true. And if there are clues then they should hold a formal inspection at the lab. If those clues aren't there, then they need to stop bringing it up.

We see that it's US intelligence that mostly fuels the "lab escape" hypothesis, China denies and meanwhile nobody gets to see the US intelligence. There won't be any progress on the matter like this.

oh these people know who they are. they're just too far outside the overton window to productively engage, but occasionally we'll hurl insults at each other as a way of saying hi. — BitconnectCarlos

The only person here entirely outside of the overton window is the only guy you seem to agree with.

i was talking about muslim on muslim oppression which is considered so pervasive in the west (and not without reason) that we just don't talk about it because we just don't care. it's not nearly as exciting as an ethnic struggle! — BitconnectCarlos

... Except Iraq, Afghanistan, Kurds, Libya, Egypt and Islamism in general have all been discussed. It gets plenty of attention really but as Baden pointed out, more whataboutism.

Fact is you don't have an ethicial leg to stand on. If Arabs insituted a state that kept Jews in an open air prison that they regularly bombed and built roads especially for Arabs that Jews weren't allowed travel on, you, us, and the rest of the world would be rightly outraged. That you think this should be fine when it's done to Muslims makes you, at the very least, a bigot. — Baden

If I understand his position it's not so much that they are Muslims but that it's Israel (particularly Israeli Jews) committing the crime and he thinks loyalty trumps justice or something.

I think you should name names here. Who here has argued that "Jews should be in perpetual diaspora" or that "the very idea of a Jewish homeland is racist" or that "they'd rahter have Jews peretually at risk of massacre or death"?

If Gaza was just some third world country crushed under Hamas with no Israel no one would care because it would just be another boring case of Muslims oppressing Muslims. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah nobody here that ever posted about terrorism in other countries or Hong Kong. It's selective outrage against injustice. When you complain about Hamas it's just a distraction from Israeli crimes, a dishonest ploy to pretend Israel is not committing terrible crimes.

So based on the available evidence at this point we have no evidence of either case (lab released or natural spreading) being true but we have a) discounted the wet market theory (at least not the Wuhan market), b) discounted articles that excluded the lab release scenario and c) proved China had withheld information.

When a and b weren't known yet I gave the lab theory only a 1% probability but that certainly has gone up in the meantime.

I care about equality, fairness and justice. I don't care about being nice to assholes who don't care about the same things I do. You can be Conservative and care about the same things though. In fact, justice and equality surely are Conservative values nowadays?

uhhhh... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/israel-opposition-presses-ahead-as-netanyahu-scrambles-to-block-ousting

As if being gay stops you from having regressive views on Palestinians or your voting pattern has to conform with what you actually believe. Your views are pretty clear snowflake.

A stereotype is unacceptable when the (pre)judgement is acted on, and is directly proportional to the power and authority of the actor. — unenlightened

Define acted on. Let's say I'm entirely powerless but I tell an important CEO constantly that blacks are lazy. I'm not really helping and if he takes me seriously I instigated harm. I think stereotypes are always potentially harmful even while at the same time being a good heuristic tool (people in the UK probably speak English)0

Ah, another right wing prejudiced poster complaining about quality because not enough people agree with him. Whatever snowflake.

Assume away.

Yes, I've noticed you have nothing of interest to add in this discussion. Stop mentioning me in your posts.

and let's not forget what that AI report said about the IDF:

More than 600 Palestinian children have been killed and thousands have been injured by the Israeli army in the past four and a half years . Some 25 have been killed this year alone. Hundreds of thousands of others have been prevented from going to school and effectively confined to their homes by Israeli army blockades and curfews. Others have repeatedly been attacked on their way to school by Israeli settlers who continue to carry out such attacks with impunity. Thousands of Palestinian children have been arrested by the Israeli army and hundreds are currently detained and accused of security offences. Many of those detained have been ill-treated or tortured by Israeli forces and some have been forced or pressured to become ‘‘collaborators’’ with Israeli intelligence services. Such practices by Israeli forces violate international human rights and humanitarian law.

Except of course that linking a photo of a baby with a fake bomb vest as an example of these child suicide bombers is a deliberate misrepresentation. The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber was 16.

Yeah, you're not paying attention.

Your post is just a blurb with no relationship to anything anyone posted. As far as evidence go, there's plenty available without resorting to propaganda sites.

If the IDF were a fair and balanced review of the 2014 escalation it would mention its own killing of innocent children and the number. And the Israeli indoctrination and institutionalised racism that has 3/4st of its Jewish Jewish youth considering Arabs inferior. I could go on but I know arguments are wasted on you.