First of all, I believe you might have too much faith (Yes faith) in science. Science may give answers to what we can experience and observe. It is true in that aspect but it doesnt necessairly say anything about how the world really is. And what happened before that tiny fraction of a second after the big bang? What caused it? Not how the world is, but the fact that it is, that is the mystery and really interesting thing. To be cured of nihilism, try to answer the following: What is a person?
Also, if you havent, I recommend reading Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky and Wittgenstein. And perhaps Simone Weil.

If God can break human freedom, then it seems to me that is what he does all the time. This sounds unreasonable, but based on the former, I make the conclusion that he can't break är freedom. I Think Berdyaev was correct when he said God has no power over human freedom. BTW, if a man came to you and said "In the world I see, 2+2 never equals 4", what would you answer? The world that he experiences is still his representation, how then is it possible to say "You are wrong"?

The problem with the calvinistic poison, as far as I can see, I that once you start to think seriously about traditional christian doctrines about God, such as his omnipotence and omniscience, along with biblical concepts such as foreknowledge, predestination and election, it is hard to not agree with a calvinist it seems to me. I mean, it seems like the combination of these doctrines leads to calvinism. God is all-powerful and knows everything. In other words, what happens, he also wills. I dont see how I am supposed to get my head around this...

I don't know if you saw this, but I edited my earlier post and added the following:

Speaking of that, here is another passage in the bible that I have a hard time with, and which seems to suggest just that God refuses to forgive or heal some people: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
John 12:40

What about that passage? And there are many similar to it in scripture.

I don't know. God's grace? You said man's will is free, so obviously, if they still have their memory intact and remember that they have rejected God, they must be able to realize that perhaps it was wrong. If not else, because of the idea of eternal hell. Not many would like to end up in such a place or state. Therefore, I can not accept the idea that "it is impossible because the person will not change, he can not change because he knows everything". The only thing that would make it impossible for them to change is if God refuses to forgive them. Does he?

Speaking of that, here is another passage in the bible that I have a hard time with, and which seems to suggest just that God refuses to forgive or heal some people: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
John 12:40

The fact that they regret their actions and want to be with God?

Yes, calvinism is quite popular among many. How that is possible is beyond my understanding.

Are you a christian or a buddhist or something else? I don't think that the buddhist concept of samsara is the same as the christian idea of eternal hell.

Thank you for your clarification of some things. But regarding Hebrew 6:4-6 for example; why can't they be forgiven and repent? If they do what is said there, leave God despite knowledge of who he is and then regret it and asks for forgiveness, why then isn't forgiveness granted to them?

Yes, but once you have committed a mortal sin then? Say that this 20-year old came to knowledge about the truth of the gospel, feels God's grace being offered for the forgiveness of sins but sort of went astray instead willingly and said to himself "Nah, it is probably all untrue. And if not I can be forgiven later if I want" and then goes away and commits a lot of sins like before; drinking, gambling, having sex outside of marriage, etc. And then, he lives like this for ten years, and one day at the age of 30 remembers that moment 10 years ago when he rejected the offer of forgiveness. Now he despairs, because he believes he has done something that he can never be forgiven for. He has "trampled on the cross of Christ" and "crucified Christ a second time" he thinks, now he wants forgiveness. He begs to God for mercy, but nothing gives him any relief. The wind is quiet. The clouds are quiet. God doesn't answer, it seems. Nothing gives him relief. He wants forgiveness, but his past mistakes makes him believe that it is not granted to him anymore. Now; is he damned? He has surely committed many mortal sins during a period of 10 years after he first realized the gospel was true. Is he damned?

Interesting. I haven't read any Karl Marx yet, though I know about his basic ideas of course. Regarding my intellectual background: I don't know what to answer there really. I have a father who is very interested in all things cultural; music, literature, art etc. So at home, we always had all these great works of great philosophers and writers. So I have just read some of them. But honestly, most of my "knowledge" has just come from me thinking a lot. I believe I have a tendency to understand the inner meaning of some of the philosophers I mention and I have a tendency to be very easily affected by the ideas and the things I read... So, my brain starts to burn sort of.

[
Nietzsche was indeed gifted. No perhaps he didn't understand the spiritual, since he didn't believe in it. He did however understood the psychology behind human actions etc. quite well. He had deep psychological insights. Only Dostoevsky and perhaps Kierkegaard has impressed me as much on that area as Nietzsche.

Anyway, you are ABOSLUTELY correct about Calvinism. It is calvinism that has completely destroyed my faith in the goodness of the God of christianity. It is almost, it seems, impossible to not think that IF christianity is true, then the God of christianity is a calvinist. Though I have no respect for any calvinist preacher I have read or heard in terms of spiritual insight. They just repeat the letters of a text. So that should give me a clue. And they all say "Truth is external to you. Not internal. It is in a book, not in your heart", basically. Calvinism is a poison. One of the worst ideas ever invented. Yet, It is hard to not believe it if you take christian doctrines such as election and predestination in combination with the idea that God is all-powerful and all-knowing seriously. And many passages in the bible seem to be in favour for calvinism. But yes. I know that in relation to calvinism AND fundamentalism, I must be an agnostic/atheist. Actually, if calvinism is true, then I would prefer to go to hell than heaven. Calvinism is for heavenly utilitarians. Thank you for your tips on how I should move on. I hope I will get there eventually, to the place where I can forgive and forget.

Interesting, thanks. If you want to tell me more, I am open ears! Interesting that you find Nietzsche overrated. I agree that many of his conclusions and ideas were wrong, but I think even there that one must consider the context in which he was writing. And I also believe that he might be the most misunderstood philosopher in history. I like him because his prose was superior to all other philosophers except perhaps Plato. And also because he was funny.

What do you think of christian dogmas such as original sin, salvation by grace through faith, Christ dying for the sins of the world and the last judgement etc?

Okay, so let us assume that this grace is once offered. Man realizes it, but for some reason rejects it. What happens to him? Say that he is young, 20 years old. And a decade later at 30 he realizes his mistake, and wants salvation and God. He begs for mercy. Will God grant it to him or ignore him? Is he damned or not?

But if I can not violate my own will, and God can not violate it either, then how am I saved according to christians? Because surely, the will can not just turn to God by itself.

Thank you wayfarer. Metaphysically, I am not an atheist. I find it impossible to believe that everything is just chemical processes. But I am angry at whatever is out there. I am angry at christianity, I right now don't like God as I understand him, and so on. Would I be an atheist, it would only be as an angry reaction towards evil things such as superstition, oppression, hellfire-preaching etc.
May I ask, if I haven't already, are you a believer in a certain kind of religion or so? Are you a christian for example? Or a buddhist? And what is your view on the atheism of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche? I believe Nietzsche was profoundly religious behind all his attacks against christianity. I am not saying he believed in the christian God, but he certainly was no materialist or "new atheist".

No I meant your pick on what you said about whether Paul's influence was good or not?

So you follow basically the ideas of Feuerbach then maybe?

Hahaha, I will actually do that! Bart Simpson was a genius.

What is your pick on Paul? God's will or an accident that christianity has rather been paulinism? I agree that he was a brilliant man, there is no doubt about it. But he has influenced western christianity more than Christ himself almost. And much of his teachings has made christians neglect action and deed. I am not talking about "works", but action and deed. I also believe he is the reason christianity has been made so often into a system.

I think why Zizek tries to interpret it that way is because he sees the danger of superstition and such things.

Yes it was very unfortunate. I was so driven by despair or something that I was close to commit suicide, and then, fortunately, I decided I needed serious help. I gave up. And now it was 9 months ago and I have actually just recently started to recover, but there are still some troubles left. Because before, I thought I was condemned(it was the ideas of Calvin, evangelical calvinists, fundamentalists, Luther and Augustine that drew me to madness), but now I am angry instead. Because I feel tricked and fooled and manipulated. And unfortunately it is hard for me to read the bible, because I read it in a calvinistic way. And honestly, I believe the ideas of Calvin are perhaps the worst ideas ever invented by a man. I can barely come up with anything worse than the idea of a cosmic torturer who decides before the foundation of the world to create human beings only to satisfy his own "glory"(vainglory I would rather say) in terms of displaying his different "attributes" like wrath, justice, "love" etc. Love for the "elect", they say, and that is perhaps 5 percent of the population. These were chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved from God's anger, wrath and justice. The rest of humanity are damned from all eternity, without any saying in the matter. They will be tortured in a literal fire for all eternity. And you know, these days, this is what I find in scripture and nothing else.

Have you read anything about Slavoj Zizek? He interprets(quite unorthodox though) the passion of Christ in the sense that God, in the moment he died, himself became an atheist. Christ's death according to Zizek was the end of God's "otherness". The "Big other" died on the cross and man is left to himself along with the holy spirit. Something like that...

I generally find it hard to appreciate St Paul. I like some parts of his writings, but sometimes wonder if he did a lot of harm to christianity by starting to theologize. You can smell the creation of dogmas and doctrines that will do a lot of harm in his letters. The spring which flows quietly and transparently through the Gospels seems to have dirt on it in Paul’s Epistles. Or, that is how it seems to me. It is probably my own impurity which sees faults in it, so that I don't see clearly. But to me it’s as if I saw human passion in these epistles that resembles pride and anger, which does not agree with the humility and simplicity of the Gospels. It seems to me like I here in the epistles find an emphasis on Paul's own person behind all his praising of Christ, and even as a religious act, which is foreign to the Gospel. In the Gospels – so it seems to me – everything is less pretentious, humbler, simpler. There are huts; with there is Paul a church. In the gospels all men are equal and God himself is a man; with Paul there is already something like a hierarchy; honours and offices. That is, as it were, what my dirty nose tells me

Read this and tell me, is it superstition and stupidity? It seems so to me, but I would like to know:

"The event that we cannot know when it will happen, is the Lords terrible Day of wrath, the next prophesied event to happen. Several years later, the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, will be known to the day, as it will be exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.
I have posted the timeline below twice before, no one can refute it.
7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BCE

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 6:7 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10
Our year 2314.5 BCE

Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4
Total years so far = 2000

Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8

Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BCE. [Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1-3 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:1-2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:32 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:1-2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1-2 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 22:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year 586 BCE.
Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

586 BCE + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 CE, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years.

January 2017 CE - 29.5 CE = 1987.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

1987.5 + 4000 = 5987.5 years, is where we are now. 5987.5 + 12.5 = 6000 years

2017 CE + 12.5 = 2029.5 CE Exactly 2000 years to the end of the present Church age. 4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam, next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.
Those who have been found worthy will go into eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5"

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Romans 8: 28-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Matthew 13:42

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

There are a few passages. Then there are plenty in the book of revelation and also some others in Matthew, John and Luke.

They are stupid, and they should be ashamed of themselves if you want to know the truth. They think they can know the mind of God :s Give me a break.

One can speculate that such might be the case, but to say so definitely is the sign of — Agustino

Thanks. I think I have heard of too many fundamentalists. They most be a really serious problem for christianity...

Of course I have read Job. I ask you to try to get deeper in to the psychology of the text and not just read it on the surface of its plane meaning sensu proprio. Read the ending of Job. God then turns to the other friends and blames them for having said wrong things about him while Job was telling the truth. That is what he said. I interpret that as meaning "Suffering has no meaning". Or perhaps you and I understand it completely different, but to me it is seems quite obvious.

I like you view on christianity I must say, and would like very much if you told me more about it. It seems interesting. I hope you are right that what I reject is the tradition of men and that most people don't know about true christianity...

Passages that disturbe me? All the passages in the gospels that speak about the unforgivable sin. I think it is in either Mark 3 or Matthew 12 that Jesus says that he who blasphemes the spirit never has forgiveness/shall never be forgiven but is guilty of an eternal sin.

I also have problems with ALL the passages that speak about election. There are plenty in the gospels. Others than that, out of the top of my head, I have problems with Romans 8 and 9. And Hebrews 6, 10 and 12 or 13.

I have another thing I wonder about. Many, many, many christians expect Christ to return now within the next 30 years or so. They argue it from this perspective: Adam is supposed to have been created around 3950 years before the birth of Christ, and therefore around 4000 before his death. Abraham is supposed to have lived 2000 years after Adam and 2000 before Jesus. Now it is almost 2000 since Christ died on the cross. 2000+2000+2000=6000. God created the world in 6 days. They claim that this is the proof that when it was 6000 since Adam was created and 2000 since Christ died, he will return.

What do you guys think about this? Probable or superstitious?

I know... But is that possible? Even when I know myself, I might ask, "What am I?".

"Progress" is a pathetic concept IMO. There are always just new problems. IMO, and I have said this before, Either Christianity is true, or Schopenhauer/Nietzsche are right(though I know they had very different opinions on values and how to deal with life, their metaphysical ideas are quite similar in that they both believed that "Will" is the only true metaphysical and ontological reality).

Interesting. Yes, I am around that age. And Dostoevsky is wonderfully dear to me. My favorite work of his is Brothers Karamazov, which is the greatest book I have ever read. In fact, reading it was perhaps my greatest experience in life whatsoever. It was the best 2.5 weeks ever spent.

I will look into buddhism more. I have some things I like about it(from what I know about the religion) and some things I like less.

Yes, well, the problem with christianity, despite its noble idea of the importance and eternal value of the individual, is as you mention the idea of eternal suffering for the "goats". Now, I can't even imagine how the "blessed sheep" can enjoy heaven knowing that many will be tormented forever and ever and ever. It sort of contradicts this idea of the eternal value of the person. It destroys it really, just as Calvin's horrendous doctrines of total depravity and double predestination destroys it. But to be honest, Calvin's ideas were horrible, but yet they were somewhat honest. They are sort of the only logical and honest conclusion one can make of the idea that God is omnipotent and omniscient it seems to me. Because what God foreknows(which in reality means knows, since he is outside of time), he also wills. To me free will sometimes seems like an excuse made up by theologians in order for there to be a reason why God judges people. But my existence wasn't willed by my. I came, according to christianity, into existence by an external will. Now as I see it, the most profound teachings in christianity are the most profound ever. Like the idea of God reaching out to man instead of the other way around. But the less profound doctrines, which seem unavoidable if one really takes scripture seriously, are IMO among the less profound ideas in human history. So, to me, christianity has both the best and the worst ideas. Also, its claim on exclusive truth makes it a problem. It sort of "destroys" what Aristotle praised as the meaning of life: "Knowledge for the sake of knowledge". Christianity says rather that all knowledge that isn't christian, that in some way can make you question some of its dogmas, are dangerous. Therefore, it is better to just blindly accept what christianity says. And they have used hell as a tool to control people and make people not think for themselves.

I just wondered. What is your opinion on religions and such things? What has made you believe there is no God?

Yes... Do you believe in God or anything like that?

Thank you for your very fine reply. And it is good to see that someone has experienced something similar to me but yet came out at the positive end. I personally, despite all the problems and objections I have felt towards christianity, can't seem to get away from studying the bible and wondering about who Jesus really was and is... It is all the doctrines and dogmas of calvinism, lutheranism, augustinianism etc that destroys me. Faith is supposed to be simple trust. Not some sort of dogmatic knowledge.

Yes... Christ is perhaps the more interesting and certainly the more mysterious one. As I said, I wouldn't even doubt to say Christ if it wasn't for the teaching of eternal torment in a lake of fire. But who knows... Perhaps Jesus never taught it.

Interesting... Well believers are what make faith difficult for me too. As soon as I started to meet other believers, I felt that the lust for Christ that I was starting to feel sort of became lesser...

That statement by the catholic theologian you mentioned is a similar one to what Fyodor Dostoevsky made! He said quite the same thing haha

Thank you very much...

Yes but take the rest of that passage.

Yes and I have been brainwashed into thinking that metaphors are facts and I can't read the bible in another way. But all the "metaphors" for hell are still terrifying, and oh my has it not brought a lot of suffering to the world. Hell is, metaphor or not, eternal and a terrifying place according to scripture. Worse than anything one can imagine.