Our subconscious is continually predicting and reacting based on our conditioning, and this can happen in the background, so to speak, freeing us to think whatever we like.
— praxis

Says who? Nobody has a clue as to how thinking works. — synthesis

Including old Shakyamuni?

The reason is that none of these people is using a part of their brain that is asking, "What's next?" — synthesis

Well, no, people think of all sorts of things while driving and don't crash.

It is very similar to when an extraordinary athlete preforms at the highest levels because s/he is, "in the zone." — synthesis

Well, no, it's just ordinary driving. High level driving, life professional racing, requires a lot of training and skill, I imagine.

This is a place where we can access perceptual reality and function at a much higher level. When we revert to our "normal" thinking, we transform perceptual reality into our personal reality and this is where all the distortions come to life. — synthesis

Our subconscious is continually predicting and reacting based on our conditioning, and this can happen in the background, so to speak, freeing us to think whatever we like. It's only when there's a prediction error, like tripping on something while walking, that our attention may shift exclusively to the sacred **perceptual reality**

By doing instead of (over)-thinking, we are able to transcend the mistakes made by human misinterpretation and miscalculation (normal thinking) and live a better life without ever asking, "What's next?" — synthesis

Over-thinking is over-rated!

There’s probably a difference between poetic and comedic expression and protesting police brutality on the one side and mindless insurrection on the other.
— praxis

I agree that there is, it's just that I'm not biased to think that only one side engages in poetic and comedic expression, while the other engages in hate and oppression. Both sides have hateful oppressors and poets and comedians, but you are only capable of seeing the world through your prism of politics. — Harry Hindu

You mentioned specific events, numbnuts, and I addressed each. Without bothering to check, if I recall correctly, "blow up the White House" was part of a poem that Madonna recited at the Woman's March. The decapitated Trump photo was a stunt by comedian Kathy Griffin. BLM are hateful oppressors???

I watched, in morbid fascination, much of the 'stop the steal' protests on YouTube. No comedy or poetry. Just a bunch of knuckleheads getting riled up by protest organizers who’s real motivation seemed to be soaking the gullible fools for donations.

No one under 21. I guess we don’t need to worry about corrupting minors.

Is religeon primarily concerned with human Morals? Or primarily with religeous Ritual? Or primarily concened with advice about mundane concerns of day to day living? Or primarily concerned with group activities such as Bingo games or picnics? Or economics? Or all of the above in equal amounts? — Ken Edwards

It’s primary purpose is to bind groups in common values and teleology. It’s all about the tribe and all other concerns are secondary. This is why religious folk aren’t uncommonly virtuous, or particularly good and offering mundane advice, but have a good turnout at bingo night.

There’s probably a difference between poetic and comedic expression and protesting police brutality on the one side and mindless insurrection on the other.

As someone who works as a creative (graphic designer) I can say that the general formula for creative ideas is to saturate yourself with material related to the design problem, put the problem aside for a while to let the subconscious do its work, and then brainstorm. If other dimensions are involved in that process I’m completely unaware of it.

God would have created atheists to train the faithful.

I'm not a white guy asshole. — frank

Not a white guy, not an asshole, or neither a white guy nor an asshole?

I'm not worried about shamanic techniques, :grin: I'm curious about how art can be about entering into different states of consciousness. Maybe I'm taking you too litterally?

Art and the arts can be about self expression, but it can also be about entering into different states of consciousness and that is where it is more shamanic. The shamans did sometimes use stimulating herbs, but there are other ways to stimulate this including certain music. — Jack Cummins

Don't recall if they're shamanic but there are techniques where just the breath is used. Anyway, never heard of art to induce different states of consciousness. I often experience flow (sometimes referred to as a peak experience, I think) while painting or other creative things but that doesn't sound like what you're talking about.

I remember thinking who would want to rule a world of orcs?

Sounds more like self-discovery/expression than conscious or deliberate transformation.

I see things very differently. Deliberate practice in meditation to relieve general and existential anxiety, and to 'depattern' the mind. Deliberate practice in art to build skill in self-expression. A good practice in creativity is letting your imagination wonder, I think, and tap into the subconscious.

The whole idea of transformation which I am talking about is ways we can work on ourselves, including meditations practices and seek out achieve states of peak experiences for ourselves, rather than just follow rituals. — Jack Cummins

And myths may facilitate this in the ways I mentioned, if not other ways? I'm still curious about exactly what you're talking about. For instance, it isn't clear if you mean consuming or studying the myths of others or generating your own myths. If the latter, how would generating myths lead to peak experiences?

I wish to suggest that the main idea which I think is central in the individual mythical and spiritual pursuit is that of transformation. — Jack Cummins

We can learn from stories and in a sense be transformed by them in that way. Stories can also reinforce prejudices or influence us in other ways that we may not be entirely aware of, and transform us that way. I suppose that something like a Zen koan could be viewed as a myth that has the potential to transform us in a transcendent way. Not sure what you're suggesting exactly.

Which social truths are you thinking about? The reason I ask about that is because there are ones which are just about conformity. I definitely believe in communicating with others, and you say it's a bit like art, but I see art and the arts as one of highest forms of communication. — Jack Cummins

I'm just curious about how or why anyone would utilize myths in an individual spiritual pursuit, basically.

I don’t see how anyone could doubt that, and that this ignorance extends to all human endeavors, including the sacred ones.
— praxis

No, I don't agree with that. — Wayfarer

Of course you don’t, human knowledge is superficial, except for the human knowledge that we subscribe to. :lol:

I prefer to think that rather than being brainwashed we can enter into our own symbolic quests, the journey of the shaman. Of course, that does come with perils but it is about discovering our own mythic truths. — Jack Cummins

We can pursue spirituality without religion, I agree, but the reason I was asking about the value of myths is because I believe that the value is in reenforcing social truths, and social truths are necessarily social, so what role would they play in a individual pursuit? Perhaps it’s like art, where we can both discover and express ‘truths’ with others?

//and I’m not saying that as a preamble to saying that ‘God did it’, only to highlight how superficial our knowledge might be.// — Wayfarer

I don’t see how anyone could doubt that, and that this ignorance extends to all human endeavors, including the sacred ones.

You are asking an extremely difficult question really, in asking about the value of myth. It all comes down to perspectives on truth: religious knowledge and myths as 'truth'? How do we evaluate it ultimately. — Jack Cummins

First we can distinguish between objective truths and social truths. Clearly, myths and legends fall into the category of social truths.

The shallowest value that myths may offer is that of mere entertainment, but even in this regard myths can resonate on a deep or archetypal level, such as stories that reflect the all to common theme of the hero's journey.

Myths have value in helping to reinforce social truths, and thereby strengthen group solidarity. That is the primary value, I believe. There is an additional value in religion, which is simply that the generator of myths (though they're not seen as myths until there's a paradigm shift) enjoys the position of ultimate authority, because only they have special access to whatever metaphysics they're preaching. Basically any charismatic leader can develop their own social truths and lead the weak minded around like cattle, and that's the negative value of myths.

I don't think you're being obscure.

What I am trying to say is that myth is a whole perspective or way of viewing experience, incorporating symbols. I am also saying that it is one way of trying to grasp 'truth.' — Jack Cummins

Right, what I'm asking is what's the value of this method? There are other ways of viewing experience and grasping truth. How is that value expressed?

So are you saying that this is your experience and the benefit of "going for it"? If your child or loved one got diagnosed with terminal cancer, for example, you'd be okay with it and not suffer at all because of it?
— praxis

I will tell you from experience because I have lost a son. It was his death that prompted me to embark on a very serious philosophical journey that morphed into my Zen Path. — synthesis

There's a saying that spiritual life begins with the introduction of pain.

Those who truly "go for it" are generally people who have come out of a very serious life episode (as did I). — synthesis

And maybe after a nice simple balanced life. Nothing wrong with that!

In thinking of the mythical we are talking about a whole dimension of experience of trying to capture truths. — Jack Cummins

Okay, what's the value of packaging truths this way?

I don’t mean I believe in the Greek gods. What I mean is, that imaginative realm is far richer than the picture in which human life is simply the outcome of the random collocations of atoms. — Wayfarer

A random collection of goofy gods is imaginatively richer than a random collection of atoms? Frankly, the later requires more imagination. I could never have dreamt up nuclear physics on my own, and have only the most basic concept of it now. A person could spend a lifetime studying and theorizing about it.

Like @Jack Cummins, you seem to think that myth has value in religion, and in the absence of myth life is somehow spiritually barren or less meaningful.

A neglectful thread host, Jack as thus far not addressed the question of how myth expresses its value in religion. Perhaps you or someone else will?

Bad comes, ok. Good comes, ok. Let each go. — synthesis

So are you saying that this is your experience and the benefit of "going for it"? If your child or loved one got diagnosed with terminal cancer, for example, you'd be okay with it and not suffer at all because of it?

Supposedly, chopping wood and carrying water is entirely exempt of suffering. Is that your experience???
— praxis

I am not a Zen teacher so I have no "credentials" to be explaining this kind of thing — synthesis

I hope you’re not suggesting that only a teacher (religious authority) can speak for your own experience.

Zen is simply every day life. Nothing more, nothing special. It is viewing life with clarity which gives rise to wisdom. That's all. Chopping wood, carry water is everyday life, nothing more. — synthesis

A nice simple balanced life. :love:

I was commenting on praxis question about the saying ‘chop wood, draw water’. As a bald statement, it means nothing much. Many of those kinds of aphorisms were taken by the popular Zen literature of the 60’s and 70’s and entered popular discourse. But outside the cultural context in which they were meaningful, they can easily be nonsensical.

In the context of Zen pedagogy, it has a specific meaning about the appropriate attitude to take towards Zen practice, i.e. not ‘idolising’ the idea of enlightenment but treating everyday activities as an expression of bodhi-mind. So the ‘context’ is not only the cultural context which makes such phrases meaningful, but also the context of the monastic life. — Wayfarer

So only after enlightenment is chopping wood an carrying water an expression of bodhi-mind? Sounds more than a little idolizing to me.

... but the later holds something very different for those willing to do the work necessary to make it back to the beginning. — synthesis

Supposedly, chopping wood and carrying water is entirely exempt of suffering. Is that your experience???

Hey I’ve got two followers :grin: but one of them is banned :sad:

Anyone that follows me should probably be banned, come to think of it.

About fifteen years ago, I took two years off and devoted myself to full-time meditation practice. I became a resident at a Zen center in Northern California (there were eight of us). Of the all the people who do this sort of thing (very, very few), a minuscule amount of the them are actually willing to do what it takes to go for it.

In my experience, most people just want to live a nice, simple, balanced life (and who can blame them) — synthesis

:razz: That’s a funny way of putting it. It suggests that those willing to “go for it” are out of balance (forsaking a nice simple balanced life), and makes me think that the those going for it are merely attempting to get where others are naturally.

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. — Zeny proverb

:lol:

I asked about the value of myth in the context of religion. The value of a hammer is in its ability to efficiently drive nails, for instance, so I suppose you could say that its ultimate value is in construction. You mentioned the value of myth in religious narratives. How does it express its value?

If the mythic is removed what is left of value in a story? — Jack Cummins

What value does myth offer in the context of religion? The value of a hammer is in its ability to efficiently drive nails, for instance, so I suppose you could say that its ultimate value is in construction.

Sure, but not all stories are mythic in nature. Stories can be very meaningful without being mythic.

To find our own mythic structure of meaning seems worthwhile to me, but this might mean that we are in the minority of the extraordinary. — Jack Cummins

Why would a personal structure of meaning need to be mythic?

What happens when you follow someone, beside instantly becoming a stalker?

Anyone can watch the game between me and Hrvoje here: https://www.chess.com/game/daily/313001356

Currently it looks like this:


Hrvoje is white.

Your anti-materialism seems a little irrational at times.
— praxis

Our society presumes that materialism must be true. A lot of people don't know what the word means, and wouldn't be able to explain it if you asked them — Wayfarer

Apropos, that doesn’t make sense. You can’t assume what you don’t know or understand. Most people are religious, if that suggests anything about societal presumptions of philosophical materialism, and according to a Gallop International poll, only 13% claim to be convinced atheists.

Well, they’r considered ‘bad guys’ by me, for the reasons I’ve given. — Wayfarer

Were you beaten up by a gang of marauding Dennettians as a child or something? Your anti-materialism seems a little irrational at times.

I would disagree that you’re in the wrong place, unless what you’re looking for is agreement rather than philosophical discussion. I’ve been quietly going against the grain here for a couple of years now, and thoroughly enjoyed learning from the discussions I’ve had. I think it’s precisely when we disagree that the most fruitful discussions can be had. I’m not expecting anyone to agree with me here - I’m expecting to learn by striving to understand different philosophical positions in relation to my own.

I think your focus on materialism and neuroscience may be useful here - I’d certainly appreciate both in some of the discussions I’ve had. Are you familiar with Feldman Barrett’s work? I’m also interested in recent collaborations of science and philosophy, particularly the interaction of quantum theory with theories of consciousness. — Possibility

Well said. :clap: