It is nihilism, no doubt. All of Modernity and Postmodernity rests on nihilism. It's the foundation of Modernity and Postmodernity, it's why everyone is cowardly over this COVID BS and why the wealthiest Oligarchs on this planet are looking for immortality serums, and transhumanist singularities and other nonsense.

Nihilism is exactly the problem. And it's definitely not an easy problem to solve, I'm not making light of it. There either is meaning/purpose etc. or there is not, and if there is, it's certainly not easy to find. Having said that, we also shouldn't just give up and say "no there isn't any meaning" because the question is too hard.

The Premodern philosophers, by which I mean, primarily the Chinese, Indian, Greco-Roman and medieval Jewish, Christian and Muslim, didn't agree on what precisely that meaning was that undergirded the world. But they agreed that there must in fact be such a thing.

I would say the same. The way to figure out, determine or discover what that meaning is is challenging, perhaps impossible, but we should live our lives as if it existed and try earnestly to find it instead of giving up and throwing in the towel.

Sort of an Absurdist or Existentialist approach to it, but not really since I reject existence precedes essence.

but we should live our lives as if it existed and try earnestly to find it instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. — Dharmi

Yes. You nailed it. There is not a true meaning in our lives. It is something we created. The abstract complex of meaningful life depends on the person itself.
But I don't really know if it's worthy find a solution or a result of our meaningless life instead of giving up. This is why nihilism appears. For me, it is hard to find a meaning in life, even more harder being happy. I am not saying here it is impossible. But somehow it looks like we are forced to discover it.

Also as you said previously. This society is so guilty because they try to send us a fake meaning of life that only a few people can get. This is the main reason why probably there are a lot of sad persons depending the country. They (I refer oligarchs) established a weird way of living: income, being attractive to others and family.
Excuse me but... If I don't live this establishment am I worst? It is impossible to discover because "meaningful" life is abstract and has to be encouraged by educational system.

Yes. You nailed it. There is not a true meaning in our lives. It is something we created. The abstract complex of meaningful life depends on the person itself. — javi2541997

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is true meaning in life. It's just hard to pin down. It's not all made up from our tail end.

But somehow it looks like we are forced to discover it. — javi2541997

Yes. As Sartre said, we're condemned to be free. We don't have any choice but to at least try to discover it.

This is the main reason why probably there are a lot of sad persons depending the country. They (I refer oligarchs) established a weird way of living: income, being attractive to others and family. — javi2541997

I usually call them the Oligarchs too, the Technocrats, the elites, the bankers, there's a lot of words you can use. But the people who have run the society for the last few hundred years.

Excuse me but... If I don't live this establishment am I worst? It is impossible to discover because "meaningful" life is abstract and has to be encouraged by educational system. — javi2541997

No, I don't think so. I think realizing that the world that has been established "for you" is a fraud, is a scam, an illusion. That's the first step.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is true meaning in life — Dharmi

Sorry. I am so stupid to understand you. My fault

We invented the blues; Europeans invented psychoanalysis. You invent what you need. — Albert Murray

:death: :flower:

I find these numbers very hard to believe. China at 93%? And my country in the 70ties while Spain only at 38. I've been to Spain multiple times, and didn't have the impression that people were fundamentally more unhappy. Spain has been through a rough patch lately to be sure, with lots of unemployment and lack of perspective in general, but these numbers seem exaggerated.

That said, I'll throw two completely different ideas at this question of meaning/happiness :

1. Expectations matter. Perception of ones happiness will invariably be relative to ones expectations about happiness. If you have high expectations, chances are you will report being less happy than someone with low expectations in the same circumstances. This might some of what's going on with Spain, historically coming from a more rich/prominent position than it has now.

2. I think there is a problem of meaning, certainly in the west. I think meaning for most people is tied to having a perspective of playing some role in the larger societies they are part of. Historically religion played a huge part in providing that, even if it was just a story people told. With secularization in the west people have lost that... and not a whole lot has come in it's place. What is the role now for the average person? Working some unfulfilling BS job to be a consumer and keep the economy going so the rich can get richer? That is if you can get a job anyway. Maybe the question of meaning is hitting Spain especially hard now because it is traditional more Catholic than the rest of Europe and late to the secular party? And so it hasn't had the time to deal with this question of meaning for a secular point of view?

I think there is a problem of meaning, certainly in the west. I think meaning for most people is tied to having a perspective of playing some role in the larger societies they are part of. Historically religion played a huge part in providing that, even if it was just a story people told. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, but that religion is "just a story" is a very Modernist type of thing claim. Premodern religion, pagan religions, were not stories. They were the way things are. The metaphysical underpinning of ultimate reality itself. Ancient people had methods of knowing this Ultimate, through what Plotinus termed theurgy, but what the Vedic tradition refers to as yoga. It's not just a story, if anything, Modernity is "just a story"

Modernity has absolutely nothing to do with Greco-Roman civilization, it's a deviation and perversion of Dark Age Christendom which stole, plagiarized and appropriated the writings of the ancients like Plato and Aristotle to create this catastrophe of a so-called civilization which is destroying the whole planet as we speak. Modernity is a story, not Premodernity.

Here nobody teaches us the pursuit of happiness or at least something close to. — javi2541997

Nobody in the USA (a capitalist society) does either.

Meaning is used by those in a position of power or influence to control the masses. If a society taught its citizens about meaning, what it is and how to find it for themselves, it wouldn’t be as easy to corral them like sheep to the slaughter.

Happiness is impossible, unless you know God. Nothing can make you happy.

Nevertheless, it its interesting that one of the fact we are agree about of making us sadness is "feeling that my life has non meaning. — javi2541997

I agree that the study seems seriously flawed. I am not sure you could find any study where 93% of a population is [fill in the blank], and China seems unlikely as a location to find mass happiness.

If Jordan Peterson leaves a legacy, I believe he will be known for advocating that the key to finding meaning in one's life is through the taking of personal and then social responsibility. It is through this mechanism that one can navigate their path using meaning as a compass.

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something.

I think there is a problem of meaning, certainly in the west. I think meaning for most people is tied to having a perspective of playing some role in the larger societies they are part of. Historically religion played a huge part in providing that, even if it was just a story people told.
— ChatteringMonkey

Yes, but that religion is "just a story" is a very Modernist type of thing claim. Premodern religion, pagan religions, were not stories. They were the way things are. The metaphysical underpinning of ultimate reality itself. Ancient people had methods of knowing this Ultimate, through what Plotinus termed theurgy, but what the Vedic tradition refers to as yoga. It's not just a story, if anything, Modernity is "just a story"

Modernity has absolutely nothing to do with Greco-Roman civilization, it's a deviation and perversion of Dark Age Christendom which stole, plagiarized and appropriated the writings of the ancients like Plato and Aristotle to create this catastrophe of a so-called civilization which is destroying the whole planet as we speak. Modernity is a story, not Premodernity. — Dharmi

Sure, as someone born in the modern age, I think it save to say I view things from a modernist perspective... I'm a product of the times, I'm not sure how that could be otherwise.

And I agree Christianity is to be blamed for everything.

Sure, as someone born in the modern age, I think it save to say I view things from a modernist perspective... I'm a product of the times, I'm not sure how that could be otherwise.

And I agree Christianity is to be blamed for everything. — ChatteringMonkey

I understand that, I'm just disputing your claim that religion is a story. It's not a story. The gods are real, God is real. From my perspective, obviously, you have your Modernist perspective.

If Jordan Peterson leaves a legacy, I believe he will be known for advocating that the key to finding meaning in one's life is through the taking of personal and then social responsibility. It is through this mechanism that one can navigate their path using meaning as a compass. — synthesis

Jordan Peterson is a living joke. He is a anti-Postmodernist Postmodernist. He has no credibility at all. He literally just mystifies people with words that mean nothing.

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something. — synthesis

Yes. That's what makes human life different than animal life. Animals can have sex, eat, sleep and clean themselves. So can we. The difference is we have an intellect, though many do not utilize it.

Jordan Peterson is a living joke. He is a anti-Postmodernist Postmodernist. He has no credibility at all. He literally just mystifies people with words that mean nothing. — Dharmi

I think millions of people might disagree with your assessment. And you might think differently in time.

Yes. That's what makes human life different than animal life. Animals can have sex, eat, sleep and clean themselves. So can we. The difference is we have an intellect, though many do not utilize it. — Dharmi

I rather think that we use it way too much. You don't see animals doing stupid shit all the time.

And I agree Christianity is to be blamed for everything. — ChatteringMonkey

How convenient.

I understand that, I'm just disputing your claim that religion is a story. It's not a story. The gods are real, God is real. From my perspective, obviously, you have your Modernist perspective. — Dharmi

Your disagreement about the existence of Gods and God is noted.

And I agree Christianity is to be blamed for everything.
— ChatteringMonkey

How convenient. — synthesis

I was only semi-serious... But Christianity has played an important role in how we got where we are now.

I think millions of people might disagree with your assessment. And you might think differently in time. — synthesis

No, I don't think I ever will. I've read his books, I've watched every lecture he's ever done. He's just Slavoj Zizek's alterego. He yaps about things, but never actually says anything coherent.

I rather think that we use it way too much. You don't see animals doing stupid shit all the time. — synthesis

Animals are what humans become when they don't use their reasoning faculty. However, they, unlike Modern/Postmodern people, follow natural law. That's why animals don't do stupid things, they follow natural law. Dharma. Modern humans reject natural law.

Meaning is used by those in a position of power or influence to control the masses. If a society taught its citizens about meaning, what it is and how to find it for themselves, it wouldn’t be as easy to corral them like sheep to the slaughter. — praxis

:up:

Happiness is impossible, unless you know God. Nothing can make you happy. — Dharmi

"God" is just a psychosocial (i.e. sheep-corraling) placebo-fetish, or drug-dependency of choice. Like a drunk's "happiness", which is drink. Why not life liberty and the prefrontal lobotomy?

"God" is just a psychosocial (i.e. sheep-corraling) placebo-fetish, or drug-dependency of choice. Like a drunk's "happiness", which is drink. Why not life liberty and the prefrontal lobotomy? — 180 Proof

That's just your prejudice and bias. Death is the ultimate elephant in the room for people who yak on about their liberty and life. You cant escape God's natural law, no matter how much you yak about your alleged liberty and what not.

Meaning is used by those in a position of power or influence to control the masses. If a society taught its citizens about meaning, what it is and how to find it for themselves, it wouldn’t be as easy to corral them like sheep to the slaughter. — praxis

Just because meaning is utilized in this way doesn't mean there is no meaning. In the same way that just because everybody claims to have the truth, and the ruling class tries to keep the truth hidden from the masses via propaganda systems and ideology as best as they can, doesn't mean there is no truth.

As my member page says:

there
is
no godot
but
Death,
and
Sleep
is
her prophet

:death: :flower:

That's not totally false. God is death. But death is not God. God is the creator of death. Also, creator of life. He is the Lord of all, and he is all, yet infinitely beyond all: creator, preserver and destroyer.

"I am death, the destroyer of the worlds." (Bhagavad Gita 11:32)

Also, death is not akin to sleep. Death is nonexistence. So, it's not experienced. Sleep is experienced.

Meaning is used by those in a position of power or influence to control the masses. If a society taught its citizens about meaning, what it is and how to find it for themselves, it wouldn’t be as easy to corral them like sheep to the slaughter.
— praxis

Just because meaning is utilized in this way doesn't mean there is no meaning. — Dharmi

I didn’t suggest there is no meaning. In fact, I believe that we are all utterly saturated in meaning.

:up:

That's just your prejudice and bias.

I didn’t suggest there is no meaning. In fact, I believe that we are all utterly saturated in meaning. — praxis

Inherent meaning. Not contrived. Not made up. Not artificial.

What particularly? That death will come? I don't think so. That's a fact.

What do mean by inherent meaning?

Inherent in the nature of the universe, in the Cosmos. In the Omniverse. It's not something humans made up.

What is called the Dao in Chinese philosophy, Dharma in Indian philosophy, Logos and other names in Greek philosophy. It's called natural law in English.