All just fun and games, my friend.

Well, he better work on keeping the story straight or things won't go so well on employee review day. Do they still send nincompoops to the salt mines?

I retired from the Kremlin many years ago. — NOS4A2

I just did a search for 'retired' and 'NOS4A2':

I’m retired. Money is already earned, friend. Unfortunately that’s something they won’t teach you in certain circles. :wink: — NOS4A2

Money already earned but "not sure how long that can last." Either you didn't get taught in the right circle or within three months spent all your rubles on cheap vodka? I can't decide which is worse. In any case...

My own business has dried up so much that I’m living on my savings. I’m not sure how long that can last. — NOS4A2

I seem to recall you saying that you're retired. Not to suggest that you're incapable of lying.

"Associated public unrest"...huh.....like what? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

How bout a little something like this...

I feel I'm in agreement with most of what Barrett says about emotions. There seems to be a hidden logic behind feelings - the "about-ness" you referred to - and, as far as I can tell, it boils down to survival, survival as an individual entity, as a social entity, as the thing one identifies as the self or as a integral part of that self. Emotions, on that view, is the logic of self-preservartion with a scope coextensive with what one thinks of as me and mine. — TheMadFool

It may be more accurate (or merely specific) to say that emotion is the logic of energy regulation, if I follow what you're saying correctly.

My feeling is if you feel slated as at risk then please stay home. If you feel vulnerable but aren't sick, stay at home. If you feel as though you are contributing by staying at home, please stay home. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

The basic choice seems to be between contributing to the health of people or the health of the economy. This has to be, at least largely, a false dilemma. In any scenario, the economy will be badly affected. Who knows, maybe it would have been more harshly affected without the measures that have been taken. There could have been massive labor strikes and associated public unrest, an overtaxed healthcare system, and so on. The economy seemed ripe for a downturn anyway.

We get it, NOS, when the target demographic possesses the maturity of a three year old you have to advertise appropriately.

Remember when you guys got outraged at a sharpie mark on a map? Three years old. — NOS4A2

At least he didn’t use a crayon. That shows some maturity.

A sign the political season is going to be great this year. — NOS4A2

If you're three years old maybe.

"Let them eat ice cream" - Nancy Antoinette — Trump

I'll give Trump credit for being the master of fake news.

I'm tempted to encourage Trump supporters to attend anti-social distancing protests. The bigger, and more tightly packed, the better. — Relativist

A few red states are planning to loosen restrictions within about a week, so DJT might be deprived of some votes.



Her body, her choice... and she's voting for Trump?

I guess the older view was really embedded for me, plus I'm not too bright.

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The classical view of emotion holds that emotions are natural states which we simply 'feel' and then subsequently 'express': one feels, viscerally, anger, which one then expresses by stomping a foot, clenching a fist, or having a yell. This is a view of emotion which has begun to be challenged by recent studies, which instead posit that emotions - or at least specific emotions, like anger, shame, happiness, and sadness - are conceptual reterojections which we attribute or impute to bodily states which are not 'in-themselves', sad, happy, angry or whathaveyou. — StreetlightX

I had to reread How Emotions Are Made about three times in order to wrap my head around this new view.

I'm old school: assertions without argument can be dismissed without argument (Hitchens' Razor). Keep's the discussion moving productively, I think. — 180 Proof

The burden of proof should lie with claimant , I also think, but it can’t be completely dismissed until it’s invalidated. This may be important to keep in mind in order to help avoid the potential for confirmation bias.

I hope you'll explain a "Yes".

I'm probably overthinking it here; if other people are "feeling a bit dark", maybe they'd relate to it, and appreciate it, rather than feel pulled down by it. — Noble Dust

Yes, maybe even share in the catharsis, if that's what it is.

"to feel with", as in to feel concurrently what's happening in the world? — Noble Dust

Art as a means to share feeling, simply.

Might be this week, might be in 6 months. — Noble Dust

:lol: Your creativity is about as unpredictable as mine.

The first one with the four silhouetted figures is digital and the last two are oil paint.

About the dark ambient, I think the whole point is to feel with. Upload when finished.

You're too kind, Nils.

So it seems I'm the only one with enough extra free time in the lockdown to Get Creative.

I stumbled onto an article today that talked about the 'degrowth' movement. I was encouraged to learn about this movement, as it aims to promote the kind of development we've talked about, but also discouraged by the article itself. It was written by Stephen Moore, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation and an economic consultant with FreedomWorks. He grossly mischaracterizes the movement as "anti-growth, anti-people, anti-free enterprise and anti-prosperity." It's certainly anti-growth, in meaning against endless economic expansion. It's not anti-prosperity, however, it just has a different definition of prosperity, which centers on well-being and sustainability rather than the acquisition of materialistic wealth.

The thing is, Moore is not an idiot, I'm sure he understands what degrowth is about. He chooses to misrepresent it, as well as make it appear synonymous with "the left," which is also a misrepresentation. Why? I can only assume that he does this for personal gain and/or to support a political ideology. Either way, he's a cog in a wheel that forces him to mislead others. If he were committed to developing his character and refused to mislead others, I think he'd be a step closer to being free of that wheel. But then maybe he doesn't want to be free.

Just thinking out loud.

Do you have it? I hope your symptoms are not to bad. — Punshhh

No reply. Hmm :chin:

I agree, but believe it would be an empathetic form of independence, rather than a form of self-isolationism. Hoping that makes sense as expressed. — javra

Yes, as the Stoics would say, in accord with human nature, which is social and has the capacity of reason. Virtue/reason applied to social living.

It's just a new and kind of disturbing thought that human culture may generally have a natural tendency to devalue the development of virtue, and not just that particular cultures may have that tendency.

You can never be "the actual self" because it is exactly that which lies outside the bounds of the type of localized coherence which forms your folk self. True actualization would be a form of insanity, a separation from mother social super-organism. Just the opposite to fake Maslow self-actualization (a marrying to one of its narrow instantiations—your dream "role", whatever). — Baden

I believe that form of insanity is called nihilism.

I believe that once we get into discussing the very nature of outcomes such as self-respect and peace of mind, things can get very complicated and debate might be non-stop. But I again stipulate that a basic physical itch can amply suffice as counter-example to a pessimistic understanding of life as endless struggle without the possibility of lasting satisfaction: The obtainment of some goals manifests something within us which is of value in and of itself, which is held irrespective of other’s opinions, and which is lasting rather than fleeting (sometime to the effect that we take it to the grave). — javra

According to Stoicism, the development of virtue is one of the few things that we have control of and therefore is a worthwhile goal and something that will have lasting value.

A thought that comes to mind after reading the OP, the mention of West World, and this part of your response to it is that societies may have a tendency to devalue the development of virtue. American culture, for instance, doesn't train us to pursue well-being in the eudaimonic sense. It trains us to pursue a good career, wealth, status, etc. The fifth level felt rabit is heaven, nirvana, or whatever. All these dangling carrots are dependent on others, which isn't nessisarily a bad thing, but it does leave us open to West World-like manipulation. The development of virtue can be countercultural in the sense that it leads to independence.

The person I was responding to seemed to think that all maps have the same value. — Coben

Oddly, you're the one who seems to come closest to making this assumption. A map has the potential to have value in a variety of uses. It doesn't only have value, or depending on the circumstances and how it's used, even the best value used as a map. If someone were using a map of Paris to navigate London, wouldn't we need to assume that the map was providing some sort of value, even if we couldn't determine what their purpose was? They'd be aware of and consciously connected to whatever they were experiencing, regardless if they were what others would consider delusional.

Maybe a little more practical example will sell the point. Imagine someone from an alien culture who has no concept of money. If they were to witness you exchanging items that they considered highly valuable for a piece of paper money, they might think you were delusional, at least initially, before they came to understand the social construct. Does believing in the value of paper money make you less connected to reality? No.

Being freshly laid-off and in the midst of a pandemic/recession is worrisome, to say the least. We can't help but worry. From the stoic point of view, it's all out of our control so there's no point in worrying. What we do have control of is doing the best we can under the circumstances. You've got valuable skills, good credentials, and work in a field that can be done online (with social distancing), so you're actually in a position with a lot of potential for employment, freelance work, or entrepreneurial endeavors. We can worry and see opportunities and move forward.

I hate the idea of being born in debt. On the other hand, my current credit rating is 848. :smile:

If I see Amanda on the street and wave to her and wonder why she is looking oddly at me, I have not come any closer to reality when I realize she looks a tiny bit like Amanda, but isn't her at all.

No, in both those instances, I was being just as realistic. One can never gain deeper insight or get closer to a realistic understanding of something. — Coben

In both instances, you were consciously aware of and had a connection to someone that you believed to be real. It was a prediction error, simply.

Insight and understanding have value because they help us do 'realistic' or practical things. What I'm suggesting is that our reality is shaped by our intents and purposes. In the absence of all intents and purposes, can real or unreal still be distinguished? I guess that's a silly question because discernment requires purpose.

I see one guy petting and training his dog and I see another guy petting nothing and actively training nothing in the same park. I suspect the latter probably is less connected in those activities. Of course, maybe I'm dreaming, maybe the latter is making a film. — Coben

I don’t follow, whatever the guy without the dog is doing he’s consciously aware of and interacting with something that must exist for him, unless he’s pretending.

In the following picture, do you see a young woman or an old one? Does seeing one or the other mean that you’re more or less aware of and consciously connected to reality? It could mean that you failed to correctly see the image that the drawer intended, if that were their intention. It wasn’t of course.

Dogs**t, ultimately, isn't funny or worth any more comment, time, or trouble than is needed to solve it as a problem. After all, finally, dogs**t is just dogshit. — tim wood

It seems to me that the bigger problem is in how such a person could be elected. That problem won’t go away anytime soon, but meanwhile, it may serve a less than shameful purpose to express solidarity in our shared dislike of dogshit.

It's a deeply shameful, embarrassing piece of writing that illuminates more about the writer than it does of Trump. — StreetlightX

Right, it was an explanation of why some Brits dislike the man, so of course it says a lot about the writer. It actually doesn’t illuminate anything about Trump. What the writer mentions has always been painfully obvious.

Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment,mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.
— Dogen

Yeah, but it's not as if that Zen thing is saying one is in the same boat, in that third level as one was in the first. In Zen that second mountains are mountains you are, according to that tradition, much more aware of and consciously connnect to reality than in the first. — Coben

What does that even mean, being much more aware of and consciously connected to reality?

I think we simply tend to be less anxious the closer we get to realizing that there’s no difference between illusion and reality.

This prevents the idol worshiping of the immoral gods, that the mainstream religions are prone to follow. This makes Gnostic Christianity a superior ideology. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So Christ was just an ordinary dude?

Here's an idea: stop whining and do something to help someone. Some person who lives near you. — frank

My wife is making masks. I’m making stupid paintings (surely unhelpful). What are you doing?

It's obviously difficult to see my point with your politically partisan glasses on. — Harry Hindu

I’ll admit your point is foggy. State government decided when to impose restrictions so if they did it too late for an optimal outcome that’s their fault, although perhaps not entirely.

The criticisms directed at the White House regarding corona span a variety of issues, many of which aren’t really comparable to state government.

Campaign ad, propaganda... potato, potato.

Speaking of con jobs, did you see the campaign ad that he aired during a coronavirus briefing the other day?



When a reporter pointedly asked who made the ad, Trump replied that it was made by a few people in his administration, apparently oblivious to the fact that it’s illegal to use public resources for campaign purposes.

It’s the art of the deal. “Never take anything off the table”. Trump likes to tout his power and authority for leverage and ambiguity in deal making. — NOS4A2

It’s the Art of The Con, and you appear to have bought it hook, line, and sinker.

If the governors don't have access to the intelligence resources that the WH has, then why are they saying that they have the power (which would include the resources) to re-open their own states, and not the WH? — Harry Hindu

They do have the power, regardless of der Führer’s claim of “absolute” power in the matter. The framework they’ve outlined is based on “principles that residents' health comes first, health outcomes and science dictate decisions and states need to work with local and community leaders.” Would it make more sense for the White House to dictate how and when restrictions are rolled back in each state?