One of the reasons that religion is meaningful is that man needs something above himself to base his morality on. Without this foundation, he rationalizes every damn thing and ends up committing great atrocities in the name of his intellectual depravity.
— synthesis

That is certainly a commonly held view. I am not so sure it works. One of the problems with religion is that it doesn't offer a moral foundation. What it does offer is many conflicting ideas which are interpreted chaotically or cherry picked by religious followers for subjective reasons and often in atrocious ways. — Tom Storm

Humans, being the way we are, desire perfect systems. Religion is anything but. The Ten Commandments is a good example of a moral foundation. What each individual does with it is another matter. It's not like you buy religion from Amazon with free 2-day shipping and free returns.

Which is why on issues like abortion, the role of women, capital punishment, euthanasia, homosexuality, drug use - believers contradict each other, all thinking they have God's view on the issues covered. Christianity can lead to the KKK or to Martin Luther King. With religious morality what you have is subjectivity - people making choices about right and wrong, based on personal preferences and interests. God scarcely comes into it. — Tom Storm

Each religion kind of spells things out. People do all kinds of things with it, though. It's like sports fans. Most are just casual observers while others completely immerse themselves in it. It's actually a great thing that this is way it is because when everybody starts thinking the same way, horrific things start happening.

This probably helps to explain why so many atrocities are committed by believers. Just look at the countless child abuse cases world wide, committed, perpetuated and covered up by every level of religious belief and church groups. — Tom Storm

I guess that's why we've never won the "species of the year" award at the planetary awards ceremony.

Not reaching at all. As men are interpreting their "version" of what God intends (the existence of God is irrelevant since there is no direct intervention or direction provided by God) any ethic is derived from man, not God. Therefore, all ethics are derived from man and are of equal stature. Horrific things have been done in the name of religion, I would put money that more have been done on behalf of "divinity" than simply "because". I can't be wrong if "God will it." — Book273

Look at it this way. Man had to create God as a giver of that which man ultimately aspires. It doesn't matter if it is man's thoughts and words, only that it comes from a higher source (whether it does or not).

Religious people go back and forth on this all the time and eventually figure out that they cannot figure it out (or it doesn't matter). The point is...there must be somewhere you can go to consider the moral path when the not-so-prudent part of us rears its ugly head.

Obviously you all have been very successful in life and have it figured out.

I wish you continued success!

Free everybody up and then see what you need.

People have been fighting each other over every damn thing forever, as religion (wealth and power) is always at the top. Much (if not most) of the Middle East feuding is about resources and wealth.

Honestly incredible, it takes an exceptionally unique individual to say that Marx's critique of Capitalism was spot on and yet we must do it anyway. — Maw

You can critique everything but that doesn't mean you are going to throw everything away. Capitalism is the only economic system there is. It works really well but has some contradictions that you can minimize but there is no perfect system.

We are talking about human beings so (really) it's quite incredible that we can anything without causing massive chaos!

Would you like a mathematical proof? Again, this is not a black and white issue.

God has been around for a long time and looks like He isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Perhaps, but man has demonstrated that he needs guidance.
— synthesis

Guidance from a god that would have us suffer for no apparent reason? A god that would have us stone a woman to death for being an adulteress? That would have us discriminate against LGBTQ people. — ToothyMaw

God is not man's creation of God. You have to transcend the stories and get into the heart of the matter. The stories were written for another time. I am sure somebody could write contemporary stories that you would like better, but that's not the point.

God is two things. One, He provides a moral ideal, a place to seek guidance when the weaker parts of us want to dominate. More importantly, all religion implores its followers to go beyond the words and seek those deeper things that vex us all.

I guess Marx wasn’t woke. :sad: — praxis

I've read a lot of Marx and his economic analysis was absolutely brilliant. The guy was a major genius. Beyond economics, though, he was a fool (you can't win them all).

My conclusion after decades of thinking about this stuff is that our best hope is to set individuals free within a framework of limited government that protects person and property and allow community institutions to gather the resources necessary to help those in need. Every time you go towards centralization (of power and wealth), things go south very quickly.

To me, independence means freedom from all forms of intellectual oppression (distortion). EVERYBODY wants you to think like they do (actually, they would rather cut to the chase and just have you send them a check, but they have to take it in a stepped fashion).

I think for most. The folks who are most enlightened on the subject take it to the next level because God and religion are just the intellectualization of what it really is (the spirituality). It really begins to make more sense once you approach it from a non-intellectual perspective.

It's been a long time since I've read any Kant, but I believe that people need to see themselves as part of the whole (part of Nature) instead of above Nature. Our intellect is pretty rudimentary, at best.

Just because some tremendously evil despots were atheist doesn't mean that atheism, or just a lack of belief in god, is a system of beliefs that motivates people to do evil things. That requires actual, enshrined beliefs, such as ultranationalism. — ToothyMaw

Perhaps, but man has demonstrated that he needs guidance. On his own, he comes up with all kinds of ways to rationalize every damn thing. Just look at what the elite and their lackeys in the professional/administrative classes have been doing over the last 50 years or so in the West.

I like people, but get more than two of them together and its no so wonderful. Even if you believe that individuals can get it together, certainly groups cannot. This is why the U.S. Constitution was written to work for a God-fearing people only. The Founders knew it would not work for those who believed they could figure it out on their own...and this has been known for a long, long time.

The mysticism of the world can provide a ground for morality. — Gregory

How so?

I just don't get how people can be motivated to struggle on in order to spend the future worshiping a God who didn't struggle but had everything given him by reality. It just doesn't make sense — Gregory

That's not what it's about which is why it doesn't make sense to you. You are treating this as it is some kind of contest. God provides a framework. You aspire to live your life the best you can using the Ideal as a mentor (so to speak). If doesn't matter whether God is real or imagined, just that S/He has laid down what is the proper path (which is a bit different from culture to culture, but pretty much the same).

In fact, I would say the one arrived at through reason is superior. — ToothyMaw

So you believe that mortal man can derive an ethic that is superior to God, (who happens to be all-everything)? That's reaching a bit, no?

My point is that an ethical accepted on faith is no more valid than an ethic arrived at through reason. In fact, I would say the one arrived at through reason is superior. — ToothyMaw

Look at human history. It's not the case. When God disappears, all Hell breaks loose.

Perhaps more to the point, all wealth ownership past, present, or hypothetical Leftist distribution is socially engineered. There is no natural wealth distribution. — Maw

You speak in absolutes. The bottom-line is that people do much better when there is a system in place that protects body and property. You need a legal system to attempt to distribute the law equally and you do what you can to attenuate the accumulation of power and wealth (e.g., revoke all corporate charters).

You have to allow the gifted to do their thing because it will benefit everybody (even if means that they get to live better than everybody else). I suppose if you work 20 hours a day and come up with something that changes billions of lives for the better, then have a Ferrari and mansion to go with it.

Destroying all that is excellent is not the way to go. Creating the most opportunity for the most people is, and it is what has worked the best so far.

Thank you!

That is assuming god exists; if god does not exist then revelation is merely another morality devised by men, wholly like any other ethical theory people might come up with and perpetrate injustices in the name of - except religion cannot have any competitors. — ToothyMaw

The beauty of it is that it does not matter whether God exists or not. If you believe in a power higher than yourself, this supplies a moral compass (higher than what man is capable of) to follow. Otherwise, man uses his intellect to cook-up all kinds of mischief.

They are all fascists. — James Riley

Most people I know who would identify themselves as "right" are into limited government, small business, personal responsibility, etc.

This by definition is not an equality of outcome. It's material consumption based on individuated needs. — Maw

I get that, but it's a similar idea. IOW, you have to somehow justify the transfer of wealth in order to satisfy what others needs are, and that's where equality comes in because what's more fair than that?

Idealists want fairness above all else. Unfortunately, fairness is not the way the natural world works, and like it or not, we are part of the natural world. Why should somebody be born better looking or smarter, or nicer, or with more ambition, or a better athlete, or a million other things? It's just the way it is.

Therefore, you can attempt to change Nature through all kinds of social engineering that always goes really badly, or you can have a society which is geared toward providing everybody with the greatest opportunities to exploit their own strengths.

"without this foundation" above

Some people actually need god to be happy and ethical; they need the threat of eternal damnation and have masochistic cravings for vicarious and literal-minded redemption in the eyes of a creator who would see us suffer. — ToothyMaw

One of the reasons that religion is meaningful is that man needs something above himself to base his morality on. With this foundation, he rationalizes every damn thing and ends up committing great atrocities in the name of his intellectual depravity.

Can YOU somehow support the claim that the left wants equality of outcome? — praxis

" From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs "

-KM

Technically, it's more than equality, it's...

"You give whatever we tell you to give because we know what's best for everybody."

Can you somehow support the claim that the left wants equality of outcome? — praxis

The Left is constantly pushing their "inclusion" meme which I take as meaning that each GROUP needs to be represented according to their percentage in the population. Merit is of secondary importance.

This would be a disaster for all kinds of reasons.

The Left has also seemingly embraced the 'something for nothing' idea and made it a cornerstone of their being. I guess they figure, "why not join the corruption party." The entire 'something for nothing' mentality that has enriched so many for so long needs to be rooted-out, not further and more deeply institutionalized.

Agreed, time to get rid of the US Constitution — Maw

Do you have any other really good ideas?

You guys need to shop for a new narrative.

Might I suggest...

NewNarrativesForFormerLeftists.com ? I hear they've got a great selection of up-beat narratives. :)

I hope you guys can take a joke. You can't be THAT serious.

I've got to admire your persistence but i don't want to chat about the election. It's over. Time to move on. And to tell you the truth, I don't even remember what we were talking about.

If you don't trust me, that's fine, but my take on lying is that it is a useless tactic. If that's not good enough for you, whatever. Find somebody else to chat with.

Zen is seeing things as they are, not as you "think" they are.

You have to first accept life as it is and then figure how you fit in. You guys see only the negative (and there is plenty of it) but there also a great deal of good and wonderful. Find the balance between the two and you'll be able to help the most people.

Life is one shit after the next.. You think you are just going to wave your magic wand and utopia will appear? You guys think you have finally figured it all out?

Boy are you going to be disappointed when you realize it's one shit storm after another after another after...

But that doesn't mean you can't enjoy life because there are wonderful parts that you have to make on your own. A good life is not available on Amazon with free 2-day shipping.

It's not forgetting the past. It's understanding it and then moving forward. The past is done. You cannot keep living it over and over again. That doesn't help anybody.

Believe it or not, most everybody is doing what they can on a personal level. The elite are doing their thing (doing whatever they can to win), the professional and administrative classes have unfortunately sold-out but that will eventually change when leadership arises, and everybody else is trying to get by.

It's not that you get it and nobody else does. Pretty much everybody gets it and is trying to do what they can (believe it or not). You act as if somehow you understand and nobody else does. Again, everybody gets it but you have to live with balance in your life because there are other people who might depend on you keep it together and act like a responsible adult.

If you go to Amazon and search for an imagination slide rule. You'll be all set. :)

You've got to leave the past in the past. Everybody knows that all kinds of crazy and bizarre things have happened throughout the history of humanity, but the reason we all enjoy what we do today is because people were able to move on and make things better.

Don't you think it's time to move on and make things better, as well? Remember, we've all been through what you are going through now. You are not the first person to discover the history of man. Tremendous improvements have been made with further to go, but these things don't happen overnight.

Apathy might be that place people go between delusions.
— synthesis
Schizophrenia ?
Why can't apathy exist even when experiencing delusions ? — Amity

No reason...we're all just making it up as we go.

Eventually, reality catches up with folks and they realize that their path hit a dead-end. This throws them into the abyss for awhile until they climb their way out and seek out their next path. If their new path is good for them, apathy disappears.
— synthesis

Depression ? They can't see how to go on...overwhelmed by the world...their circumstances...
If long-term or clinical, then it isn't always possible to climb own way out or seek a path.
Chronic or deep apathy needs to be treated first.
Also, even if new path is good, there can still be occasions of low level apathy.

In cases such as Alzheimers or a neurodegenerative disease...where the capacity to think or change is extremely limited, life goes on - with physical and mental pain. There seems no choice to take a new path. However, action can still be taken to alleviate - to try to make life worth living... — Amity

I am not sure very much is understood about how cognition functions, so I'll leave that to somebody with a larger imagination than mine.

Individuals would have dominion over governments and corporations in your dream society? If so, which individuals? — praxis

You might want to sit down and read the U.S. Constitution. It's about individuals.

Well, then what explains all the successful AAs and Asians and Indians as well as all the poor white people?
— synthesis

I'm a little confused; how is that relevant? I'm asking you to recognize that people of color - even the supposedly unsuccessful ones - often times are hard workers that are struggling with the effects of a history of oppression. Just because this is a trend doesn't mean that it is the case for all of them. — ToothyMaw

How is that relevant? You are suggesting that race is THE major factor in success. I am pointing out that the most successful groups in this country are people of color, AND the most of the poorest are white.

How does that work with your theory?

Restricting what folks can and can’t do isn’t freedom. — praxis

If restricting means limiting the power of governments and corporations, then restrict away. Increase the power of the individual. It's the only way to unleash the productive powers of a society.

AAs need to get their communities together and do what the Asians did, work their asses off.
— synthesis

Has it ever occurred to you that many people of color are hard-working yet are not doing well financially because of external disadvantages? Maybe from a long history of differential treatment? — ToothyMaw

Well, then what explains all the successful AAs and Asians and Indians as well as all the poor white people?

[quote="ToothyMaw;533338"CRT is crazy. It is Maoist cultural revolution kind of stuff.
— synthesis

Sounds like you enjoy soundbites almost as much as belittling people of color whom you deem unsuccessful.[/quote]

You can do better than that. I am belittling nobody as I have been around a lot of very successful people of all colors.

I get that people have some disadvantages, but you have to do what you can to overcome them. You do that with solid ethics, strong families, and supportive communities. There is no doubt in my mind that the AA community will come into its own within the next couple of generations.

Who have I called a racist? I'm saying that the Right bemoans terms like "woke", all the while relying upon other thought-terminating clichés, thus a double-standard. — thewonder

Everybody should be talking about how we can be freer. That is the key to tremendous success in any society. Right, left, up, down, who cares? If you are talking about freedom (especially economic), that's a good thing. If you are talking about controlling others through governments and corporations, that's a bad thing.