Trust isn't rational at all. It's a rather obvious point really. I could be right 99 times, that's no reason at all to trust I'll be right the 100th time. Trusting scientific consensus generally works for a basis to make decisions but it's not a rational decision making process. — Benkei

I agree. But it is rational to trust the rational, and to distrust the irrational. Just because one lacks the skill sets to be among the rational, does not mean one lacks the skill sets to distinguish between the rational and irrational.

Apparently the rational people say the 100th time you jump off the cliff will generate a result identical to the other 99. They don't say that because of the odds. That would be irrational. Rather, they say it because they've studied gravity, physics, etc. The irrational say "Meh, maybe the result will be different."

It's not irrational to trust the rational.

This position is now obsolete. — Xtrix

:100: I used to be a two-party hater. I even wrote myself in because I could not stomach either side. But now there is a distinction with a relevant difference.

It isn't my problem that there are not enough beds. If you're so concerned, donate your bed? — Merkwurdichliebe

It will be your problem if you or a loved one need a bed. I donated mine by getting a vax.

You prefer the indescriminate blowing up of Arab children, I prefer covid fatalities. — Merkwurdichliebe

I don't prefer either, but there is one I can do something about and I did it. You know, the one with more numbers.

Did you know that children are far less susceptible to severe infection from covid than are other age groups? I guess that means I care about the lives of children more than you. — Merkwurdichliebe

What have you done for those Arab kids? Did you get a shot so you could better be there for them? If so, good. Nobody is likely to be able to help your kids if they can't take a few minutes out of their life for a free shot.

I am, if I see the situation to be a democratic state, I expect it to serve its people.. — Merkwurdichliebe

Actually you are not. If you had situational awareness you would have seen the answer to your own question: The difficulty for the state is people like you. Can the state fix stupid?

This is probably news to you, but not everyone is so needy, there are multitudes of people that do not want others to give a shit about them, especially strangers they will never meet. Looks like you don't give a shit about those people...so much for your universal benevolence — Merkwurdichliebe

Your reasoning fails. I don't give a shit about those who do not want others to give a shit about them. Fuck them. I give a shit about those who do care, and who will be killed by the former.

Speaking of kids:

He had the entire media juggernaut behind him as well -- talk radio, Fox News, millions of social media followers, and help from foreign hackers. — Xtrix

And main stream media whores giving him free air time just because he know how to play them like a bitch.

P.S. Liz Cheney: more conservative than the lot of them, and bigger balls to boot.

ure, but we have an economy upon which our welfare is dependent. Venezuela is a community as well, (if you can really call a large, modern, diverse nation-state "a community", anyways), but the economy is all fucked up. I don't think either of us would want to live there right now. — Michael Zwingli

That brings up a question I've had for some time. Maybe you can answer it. For a while there, the overwhelming majority of people knocking on the U.S. southern border were from "allied" countries. Not so many from socialist countries. That made me go hmmmm? Why would that be? It's not like the socialist countries were locking their people in and the "allies" were letting their people go.

Then I wondered if U.S. alphabet agencies were down there stirring the pot and fucking with the socialist economies. Riling up and funding agent provocateurs and calling them "freedom fighters." Were these countries failing on their own, due to inherent problems with socialism, or did it have something to do with sanctions, embargoes and/or pot-stirring? And then, with our allies, how much do we prop them up and try to take pressure off their juntas by doing the whole Peace Corps-type operations in their countries?

Oh, and are these stupid questions? If not, why isn't the U.S. 4th estate asking them?

I wonder how well Venuzuala would be doing if it got the same treatment as our junta allies?

I don't like deficit spending by Republicans any more than by Democrats. In my view, both parties are utterly corrupted, and all but worthless to us. These two identifiers have become no more than ways to choose your poison, in my view. — Michael Zwingli

Hence my desire to throw caution to the wind. They did.

This only works so long as the dollar is used and trusted by the world. One big fuck-up, one default, and that could easily go out the window. Don't forget, the "American century" is well in the rear view mirror, now; now there is fiscal competition for us. — Michael Zwingli

Let 'er rip! You know, like Covid. For someone who doesn't give a fuck you sure seem worried about the economy. But as one wag recently said, this exercise has taught us that we are not an economy, we are a community. He may be wrong, but if so, it's only because it's too late, thanks to those who focus on the economy.

That's too bad. Good thing its all speculation. — Merkwurdichliebe

Tell that to the folks who lost loved ones who could not access a bed.

Save my life and the life of others? Don't be so dramatic. — Merkwurdichliebe

I'd argue that, but then it was followed by this:

And what makes you think I give two fucks about saving lives? — Merkwurdichliebe

And that explains it.

Did you know that there are numerous categories of people whose live's needed saving before covid, and continue to need saving today? — Merkwurdichliebe

I know, right? And some of them can't get a bed.

If I were concerned about saving lives, the first ones I'd try to save would be Arab children getting blown up by the US war effort. But nobody gives a fuck about those people. It's a lot easier to feel righteous by obsessing about covid fatalities. For me, covid fatalities are at the bottom of the list of lives that need to be saved. — Merkwurdichliebe

Okay, so you side with the virus; killer of millions. Got it.

it should ask . . . . What is so hard about that? — Merkwurdichliebe

Exercise a little situational awareness and you'll see what's so hard about that.

You appear to favor the latter mode of statehood, no doubt you would thrive under it. — Merkwurdichliebe

If it were then I wouldn't be supporting the asking, and fearing the tools who could give a shit about others.

The cause of millions of deaths and the destruction of lives of 100s of millions of people. — MondoR

Are people who wouldn't distance, mask and vax.

I think Little Mitchy and his owners saw the Trump Administration (plus Republican legislature and courts) as their last big opportunity to loot America. They saw the writing on the wall, as the people were waking up to their failed policies since the Reagan Administration. Mitchy is only now playing a rear-guard delaying action, pretending they still might eek out one more spree. But behind the scenes, they are all hiding their ill-gotten gains and making plans for New Zealand, or gated communities guarded by Tier One operators trained up on our nickel.

Hopefully we have the ability to claw-back and rebuild America and make her great again, like she once was when the marginal tax rate was 90% and people had a sense of civic duty; back when self-interest was enlightened, per Adam Smith. But yeah, if we melt down in the alternative, we can only hope they have to pay the piper too.

That reminds me, as a "troubled youth" I went to Job Corps CCC, got a trade as a welder and a GED. I learned how to fight and how to work with others.

It also reminds me that some of the best, long-standing, still-extant, and beautiful structures I've ever seen out west were built by FDR's CCC.

That having been said, the instant bill is garbage, as it includes provisions for the growth of deficits by over the next decade. This is not what is needed by the American government. Rather what is needed is the exercise of fiscal self-control, and keeping spending within the budget dictated by tax revenues. Deficit spending has caused the U.S. to experience the greatest national debt ever imagined, and still growing... — Michael Zwingli

Too late. I say throw caution to the wind. Debt shmedt. Or, as we used to say, fuck around fuck around soon you won't be around. Republicans can go suck a dick. Besides, tax revenue has never funded the U.S. The U.S. rides on the world's use of the dollar and we have the printer.

:100: If only the virus would stick to those who don't believe in it. I guess war is never like that. Collateral damage is the old and the weak. Back in the day we used to protect the old and the weak; and not throw them under the bus. But now we want to just lock them up while we go on with our merry little lives. After all, distancing, masking and vax is a big ask for a culture of pussies.

:100: At the beginning of this, with mask "mandates" I would see many unmasked at the grocery store, notwithstanding signs and audio messages. I thought the answer was the same as any bar: bouncers at the door. I'd pay a small mark up for that.

As to my focus on the political side of things, I think that if we are going to go to war with a virus then it is reasonable to know who is with you and who is with the virus. Anyone who wants to try "diplomacy" or mediation is free to talk to the virus and try to make peace with it, so long as their efforts don't interfere with the tactics and strategies designed by our generals, intelligence and other experts. Policy can always be argued. I'm fine with that. But don't pretend to be an expert at killing viruses unless you are.

But maybe it's too late. Maybe the virus and it's supporters won and now we have to learn to live with our new master. Even so, those of us who fought the good fight will still harbor a grudge. At least I will.

Drag all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculate them at gunpoint? — jorndoe

There is no need to do that, so long as we have "No shoes, no shirts, no service" for the vax. But we haven't even arrived there yet. We're still trying to be nice. At least where I live.

The deadline for one vote is tomorrow— this week will be crucial. Between these bills and the debt ceiling, it’ll be interesting to see if the democrats can pull it off. — Xtrix

No.

Thank you rock for reminding me of you.

This ad from the plastics industry was in today's Washington Post — Bitter Crank

Well there you go! I'm satisfied. Nothing to see here folks. I mean look, the mom and son are even wearing masks. I'm sold.

Only asking? Not commanding? — Merkwurdichliebe

Yes, only asking. Not commanding . . . . yet. It's like a mother pleading with her child to get in the back seat and put on the seat belt. You might think begging is like your dog but your dog is not going to lose his patience with you if you keep being a POS. Eventually there will be commands. And then we have to listen to the wailing. That is if we haven't lost the war already, thanks to these children. In that case, they've killed a lot of people.

P.S. So you think it's cute when government begs you to get a shot and save you life and that of others? Are your politics showing?

They're not irrational or stupid as much as you want to find a reason why you're not able to convince them otherwise. — Benkei

As I've explained all along, my truck with them is political. I don't see their issue as fear or suspicion or lack of trust. They won't vax because they hate who's asking and because they've been told not to by those who hate whose asking. It's political. They hate me for my politics, I hate them for their politics. Simple as that. They are disrespectful, inconsiderate, selfish, obstinate, petulant anti-social brats. When they go low, I go with them.

Okay, okay, I spent like two nano seconds googling for an article that reflected something I heard recently about damage to babies brains and I grabbed that one because I'm lazy. I'm going to do it again, only without a citation, and mention something else I read but a long time ago. Apparently some plastics can mimic estrogens and might lead to a feminization of men, sterility and a lack of interest in sex. I saw that as a good thing, but, well, interesting anyway. Go plastic! :razz:

That’s how it’s done. Excellent! I for one am convinced. — Xtrix

Hey, I just did my own research. I can criticize anything so I must have great critical thinking skills. :roll:

Ah, good old anecdotes. The imbecile’s idea of “strong evidence.” — Xtrix

Yeah, and what are the odds we have a person right here on TPF who personally knows someone who died from the vax. Under threat of job loss, no less. We should all run out and buy a lottery ticket.

But what is good for the goose is good for the gander. So, if the Covid patient died from being fat and not covid, then that vax-related death wasn't really from the vax. Doesn't count. Sorry. The doctor who said the vax killed her is part of a big conspiracy to undermine the vax and is paid by FAUX News.

So neoliberal capitalism. Yes. — Xtrix

I'm not sure what it's called, but I'd just like to see Liz Warren call them out and say "You want capitalism? You couldn't handle capitalism!" The corporation itself is anti-capitalism and yet the self-identified "capitalists" are all about hiding behind it. It's a creature of the state (i.e. Big Government) which they claim to hate, all while hiding behind it. If they were forced to pay their way in a true risk taking fashion, they'd take their capital and crawl back under the fridge where they belong. Anyway, yes, kill it if it can't abide it's own terms. If there is no enlightenment in enlightened self-interest then you just have greed and that is not what Adam Smith of any true capitalist was about. Greed is what we have now.

Chances of any serious side effects smaller than the chances of winning Powerball— or the chances with any other vaccine. — Xtrix

And yet Dr. Mondo lost a girl friend to the vax after Guido and Luca put a gun to her head and said "Job or jab you little twit." :roll:

Well, I think you should be an obedient lemming. — MondoR

Maybe I should be, but I'm not. So there's that. LOL! Jeesh, if you had another brain you'd be a half wit.

Or just an imbecile. Which is much more likely, given the evidence. — Xtrix

:100:

There’s a much stronger case for eliminating capitalism — Xtrix

I would agree in so far as "capitalism" is defined as the abomination we currently live under (which includes socialization of costs while privatizing profits). But true capitalism would require all of those who currently do the damage to first pay each individual, in an arm's length transaction, fair market value for the right to damage their interests. Some, like me, would not sell and therefor the damage could not be done. No corporate veil, or big government skirts for them to hide behind with their limited liability and other purchased legislation. That would be true capitalism and not the hedonistic waste that the self-identified "capitalists" currently shove onto us.

Frank would fit in much better on Twitter: short, usually irrelevant, and generally stupid posts. — Xtrix

I agree. He's taking up perfectly good space that could better be used by nothing.

A friend of mine. Someone who was forced to take it against her will to hold on to her job. MURDERERS! — MondoR

First of all, I think you are a fucking liar. But even if you lost your friend to the vax, she wasn't forced to take it. She could have and should have forfeited her job. We don't need anti's out in public. Either way, it's collateral damage in the war against the virus that has killed way more, by huge orders of magnitude, than any death caused by a vaccine. Besides, you can't prove the vax killed her. It was a comorbidity. Yeah, that's the ticket.

No, you are just an obedient little lemming who listens to I don't know who, but not the President. — MondoR

The President isn't an immunologist either. I'll abide the CDC and my own doctor. You, however, are an obedient little lemming for Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson. LOL!

It may have fucked with your brain. — frank

Yeah, I mean here I am, arguing with a fucking moron named "frank" so it could very well be. Here's an article about the plastics found in the franks in franks diapers. The verdict is still out on harm, but I think you are a case study proving damage: https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/23/22689941/babies-infants-poop-microplastics

If these people happen to be king and country, I will admit to disliking them. — Merkwurdichliebe

If it were a king, he might not ask. Hell, you can even dislike elected officials relying on experts but at least they are just asking politely. Actually, they are near begging.

Who needs to ask you? — MondoR

My doctor.

I believe the President said you should have a booster. — MondoR

And the experts say wait (I had the J&J).

Your immunity is waning and you are a menace to mankind. — MondoR

It is, but you're the menace to intelligence.

Who knows how many people you are going to kill. — MondoR

Not as many as you.

You are an obedient lemming aren't you? — MondoR

No, but I am humble enough to know I'm not an immunologist, a doctor or an expert on this matter. How about you, Dr. Mondo?

What else will you do, if asked to? — MondoR

Depends.

Take opioids? — MondoR

Yes, as a matter of fact. You take them just to the point where the pain stops and no more. No euphoria. Follow your doctor's orders.

The FDA approved them. — MondoR

They did. And they work, if used properly. You should not use them, though. You think you know it all.

Has killed 10s of thousands of people. — MondoR

Yes. And how many people have been killed by the Covid vaccine? Covid?

:up:

Why? Are we in a hurry? — frank

Depends on if we care for our children. I think there was a recent article about how this is all fucking with their brains. I'd look it up, but I'm too lazy.

Why when animals are able to form order and organisation without this does the human stand alone. — David S

I think morals and ethics can be instinctual, just like love. The only reason we think about it and animals don't (?) is because we are not as comfortable with it. Another way to say it is, morals and ethics (and love) are not innate to our being so we reach for them.

Solidarity of the people seems to be a distant fast-vanishing dream. — Janus

Yes. If they detect a little stirring that could manifest into a credible threat, they just crack open the spigot a little bit, give us a drink, toss us a bone and foment a division and we are as divided as ever.

I don't know what will help, but I know flippancy won't. — Janus

:cheer: Flippancy is just one step shy of the nest step, which is "looking at the bright side." It's part of the default playbook. I saw it in logging, mining, grazing, water . . . whatever would let the process continue and allow people to sleep at night. It's like collateral damage. Just another price to be paid. Nothing to see here, move along folks.

I don't believe most people want to take responsibility. — Yohan

Part of the problem is that taking responsibility can work at cross-purposes to your goal. If I save a gallon of gas, I increase the supply, which lowers the price, which stimulates demand, and allows others to roll coal while I walk. It's like the guy who wants to take out Saddam Husain taking his deer rifle, boarding a plane to Bagdad and trying to hunt him down on his own. Is he a hypocrite for not doing so? No. It's just smart to have solidarity on some issues. It takes all of us to build an interstate highway system, prosecute a war, save the climate, etc.

So it's no wonder people want to be lead. We just have leaders that are owned by the Plutocracy. How to break that log jam? I don't know. With all the bread and circuses it's hard to do.

The PHI is accountable to no one. We might think that government could/should hold the PHI accountable, but government is a fully owned and operated subsidiary of the PHI. You are correct that we don't stand up to government because we are preoccupied with basic survival, divided, distracted and lack solidarity. However, the PHI funds that preoccupation, division, distraction and lack of solidarity.

There are other PHI subordinates (other unrelated industries and interests) that contribute to and benefit from the PHI efforts. So it's not all on the PHI, but they are the el jefe. It's probably more accurate to just sum it up as the plutocracy.

One wag opined that in the future (if not now) we will be resigned to aligning ourselves with the Plutocracy or Cartels, both of which rely upon each other to foment the preoccupation, division, distraction and lack of solidarity by using each other as a foil, while maintaining government as a punching bag for the people.