I think Bill Gates is chump change compared to the largest, richest most powerful industry the world has ever known: Petroleum Hydrocarbons (oil). He's like a gnat on bulls ass. But I have often wanted to sit down and ask him and his wife (X?) how philanthropy doesn't work at cross-purposes: Doesn't education and helping people result in an increase of their foot print on the planet? One American costs more than a thousand starving people in X country. If will pull them up and cause a reduction in their reproduction/population, isn't that offset by their increasing foot print? Anyway, I digress.

As to other "pressing issues", one might argue that worrying about those other issues is spending a dollar chasing a dime. When your house is burning down, you might want to work on that first. Of what avail is equal wealth distribution, peace, solidarity, accountability, food and water, if you don't have a place to enjoy all that in? They aren't much good in a post-apocalyptical hell-scape.

What if we, for the sake of argument, replace that ↑ quote with something like "which gave them a unique insight into the lab"? — jorndoe

:100: Awesome. Words matter. If you say "we can and they can't" it has a whole 'nothing meaning than to say "we must and they don't have to." It would be great if folks could run around doing what you just did, showing how language matters. I wish I was better at it.

If you can't tell the difference between truth and a lie, what is it? Is it dependent upon perception, and if so, who's? Are we to respect the perception of a lie or a truth, simply because we don't know it?

An Indian once told me that whenever we tell someone else they are wrong, we are stealing their perception. I had to think about that, and jettison some of my Eurocentric upbringing to arrive at what I think he meant. But I think he had a point. In this context, can't we afford to allow a P-zombie to have what we perceive, correctly or incorrectly, as perception? I do that with rocks all the time. After all, I'm not where they are, perceiving from "their point of view", and I'm not them. I'm not walking in their moccasins.

Such a stipulation does not prevent me from my own perceptions or reactions to the actions or inaction of a P-zombie. Or a rock, for that matter. I can still destroy them, or love them, or whatever. If they wish to change my perception of them, they can. Or not. But it won't be by telling me I am wrong. It will be by showing me who or what they are. If I wish to change their perception of me, I won't tell them they are wrong about me. I will show them who I am. Or not. Stealing another's perception shows others that you are a thief.

But, in the final analysis, if I kill a P-zombie I don't want to face a charge of murder. Destruction of property, maybe, but not murder. How to convince a judge or jury that it was a P-zombie and not a human? Perception matters. Truth matters. Lies matter. Or not.

Seatbelts don’t have side-effects. — AJJ

The hell they don't. They interfere with my personal freedom and, like helmets, they are more inclined to leave you a vegetable than dead.

But never mind that. If we wanted to take a deep dive into their efficacy, we could. We could even lobby for changes in the law. But in the meantime, we wear them because it's the law. If people don't vax, it may very well become the law. And then we'll hear the real whining start.

Regardless, it has been proven, scientifically, that the threats of the vax are miniscule compared to Covid and the clogging of beds that could be used by others. Hell, the side affects of the flu vax, ibuporfin, a McDonald's Big Mac, booze, hot dogs, etc. are greater. Don't be a pussy. Be brave my little AJJ. You might get a fever, some chills, a sore arm. But it will pass. I got all that. Others I know suffered worse. But they did it. Watch the needle go into your arm, embrace the suck! Enjoy the horrendous risk you are taking against the odds in a cold cruel world. You are a hero, AJJ! Roll the dice! Look death in the face and say "GIVE ME THE VAX! I regret that I have but one pin prick to give for my fellow man!"

Yes, I wear a seatbelt. — AJJ

That's all the vax is; a seat belt.

And guess what? Seat belts, like helmets, aren't solely mandated because society cares about you. It's also to keep insurance premiums down, protecting others from the foolish risk-taking that you think affects only you.

The virus poses me no greater risk than driving my car does (I expect it’s even less). — AJJ

Do you wear a seat belt?

If I bought into the war analogy it would be easy to feel brave against such a meagre threat. — AJJ

You just owned yourself. If it's not a war and not a threat, then it would be easy to be brave against such a meager threat. Be brave my little AJJ! Take the vax for your fellow man, not for yourself.

If you like I’ll at least consider that my characterisation of you is wrong if you do me the same favour. — AJJ

I'm about as concerned with your characterization of me as I am of the virus. I'm fearful instead of your characterization of yourself and the threat it poses to others. You are either in denial and feigning fear, or you are lying. I think the latter. What you think of me is of no moment. If you like, I will tell the whole world that I cower under my bed all day in fear of Covid. LOL! That would be a lie, of course, but if it would get you to admit you don't want the vax because you are being a political, petulant, obstinate little child, then it would be worth it.

I think narrating this situation as if it’s a war is a way for frightened people to consider themselves brave. — AJJ

I think you are wrong. I'm no fan of Trump but when he said he was a war-time President in a war against an invisible enemy, I think he had a point. After all, people have been calling this a "pandemic" and a pandemic is no normal disease situation. In fact, I think we even invoked some war-footing statutes that allowed the President to order private sector industries to start cranking out materials to aid in the fight. Whether or not he did a good job of it is another question.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with propaganda, but narrating this situation as a war is more likely to generate the fear you talk about, than it is to get people feeling brave. Perhaps that is why you say you are so afraid. Be brave, my little AJJ. Stand up and fight the virus! If you really are afraid (which I don't think you are; for if you were truly afraid, you would take the vax because the virus poses a much greater threat than the vaccine), then you overcoming your fear would truly make you brave. Guys like me aren't overcoming fear. You would be and that is the greatest courage.

I spent some time last night thinking about our exchange and how I might better explain my feelings to someone who apparently has no sense of civics and can't wrap their head around the idea that someone might want to care about others. It reminded me of my youth and the men I looked up to.

I didn’t join the armed forces for any high ideals, but I did know older men who joined during WWII. And they did join with higher ideals. They were the men I learned from. They did not join because they were afraid of Nazis or Imperialist. They joined to kill Nazis and Imperialists. And they did it for others, not for themselves.

Now, once the bullets started flying, they acknowledged fear. They overcame it. But before that, in the joining, the training, they weren’t afraid of the enemy. They wanted to engage and kill the enemy.

Likewise for me, with Covid. I don’t fear Covid or the vaccine. Now, if I actually got Covid, or suffered a side affect from the vaccine, then there would be some fear. I would overcome it. But fear of Covid is not the reason I got the vaccine. I got it to protect others. My loved ones and friends. And because I was asked by people I trust more than the enemy.

I’m more afraid of stupid people than I am of Covid. Stupid people provide aid and comfort to the enemy; an enemy that could kill my loved ones and friends. The enemy is a known quantity. We can deal with it. But my own fellow humans that would aid and abet a virus, well, that's some scary shit right there.

Thank you elk, for humbling me.

The problem is that would take a drastic reduction of human population. By one estimation earth cannot sustain a human population of more than 200,000,000 using organic farming techniques, not to mention returning to hunter gatherer life. Who knows what the real number is? But it seems obvious that it's much, much less than the present population.

So, the problem is how to effect such a reduction ourselves when the whole question seems to be taboo to most people. Nature may do it for us, or we may do it to ourselves in some unthinkable way, but neither of those are alternatives that many people would wish for. — Janus

I once did a back-of-the-napkin analysis and came up with 250-500k. I figured that at our current rate of consumption, as an apex predator, and based upon the richest, most consumptive person on the planet (I don't know who that is) we would need what we had as hunter-gatherers. I figure 10k square miles of temperate zone land per 35 people would be about right. (Fewer as we go closer to the poles and the equator.) That's a block 100 X 100 miles. The center of that is about 50 miles to any border of the next group's area. That is a reasonable distance to travel once a year to party, diversify the gene pool, trade lithic knowledge, etc. and yet still be able to slaughter mammoths, bison, fish, etc. without really harming biodiversity. Of course they could go different directions, seasonally, to link up with other groups, maybe four times per year.

As modern homo sapiens, we would not want all 500k living in and around the same city because that would present a danger from a localized catastrophe, not to mention disease. So we'd spread out but maintain travel and communications. Ideally those 500k would be made up of as much genetic diversity as we could cram into 500k. In this way, we could maintain the current highest standard of living of the richest, most consumptive person on Earth, without jeopardizing maximum complexity and biodiversity of the planet.

Not that anyone would want more people, but if we decided that we wanted more people, we could easily do that with lowered consumption. Anyway, if human beings are as smart as we think we are, we should be able to automate extraction of resources and the production of all the food and luxuries we want, speed around and off the planet, reserve all knowledge gained thus far, continue to gain it, and generally leave the planet whole.

How do we get there? Well, if we're so fucking smart, then it shouldn't be a problem. And we should be able to do it without killing billions of individuals before their normal time would be up. But we are not as smart as we think we are, and we are no different than any other species on this planet. We certainly are not humble. Rather, we are desperate, insecure, over-compensating, fearful little creatures scurrying around the pizza, grabbing slices because we don't think there will be enough. And we are right, because we are scurrying around the pizza grabbing slices because we don't think there will be enough. We are who we are, and no better. And we could never agree on who should stop the grabbing. So we'll just let the pizza run out. Earth can only make so much pizza.

If only we could figure out a way to make them think it was their idea. Maybe bury it the bowels of a Qanon web site, along with Ivermectin and other such things.

Maybe the anti-vaxxers would be more amenable to this sort of thing? — jorndoe

I think it would all depend on who's asking them to take it.

"His vision, from the constantly passing bars,
has grown so weary that it cannot hold
anything else. It seems to him there are
a thousand bars; and behind the bars, no world.

"As he paces in cramped circles, over and over,
the movement of his powerful soft strides
is like a ritual dance around a center
in which a mighty will stands paralyzed.

"Only at times, the curtain of the pupils
lifts, quietly--. An image enters in,
rushes down through the tensed, arrested muscles,
plunges into the heart and is gone."
---Rainer Maria Rilke — tim wood

:sad:

:up: Sounds like the old saying "He who rides the tiger cannot dismount." I guess we aren't all that intelligent and wise or we'd be able to have the best of both worlds.

most of us are completely disconnected from the natural world and only know about it through television or the occasional visit to a park — darthbarracuda

That reminds me of a paper I wrote in the 80s that said "Next to the last few minutes with Charles Kuralt and a trip to the wilderness now and then, when do we ever do anything that is not absorbed in "us"?"

Last time I counted, the end of "Sunday Morning" was down to under 30 seconds. :roll:

Have you scheduled your booster? — MondoR

No, but when asked to do so, I will.

You are a menace to humanity. — MondoR

And you are a disrespectful, inconsiderate, selfish person. I have reduced this to the shorthand of POS. Carry on.

If we accept that we had to do what we did to get that which have which we like, does that mean we have to keep doing it to keep it? It would seem to me that if we are all that intelligent and wise, we should be able to stop doing what we did and yet still keep what we got. We could have all the good things that the hunter-gatherers had without any of the bad that they had to suffer with.

When I say stop doing "what we did to get what we like" I just mean the bad stuff which threatens our enjoyment of what we got. We could continue doing the good or innocuous stuff.

Could we not have clean air, clean water, highly complex and extensive biodiversity, "wilderness", open space, etc? Can't we have our cake and eat it too?

Are they correct who say we must continue on our aggressive, desperate, competitive, polluting, exploitive, extinctive, winners/losers, rich/poor course in order to survive or maintain or improve?

We remind me of the movie quote when someone asked a rich man how much money he wanted and he simply said "more." Is that attitude required to maintain what we have? Is it required to get more? Or can we get more, more responsibly?

No testing was required by the hospitals. Very cute. — MondoR

Doesn't have to be "required." It's a matter of course. I had a flu test in November of 19 (negative) just because I was under the weather. Dr.s do it all the time. DOH!

Stopped both!!??? You have to be kidding. It was a catastrophe among the elderly, obese, and others with immune problems. The U.S. had the worse record because it's totally profit driven. — MondoR

Man, are you that stupid? Let me dumb it down for you with analogy I've been using with stupid people since they said masks don't work because their glasses fog up. It's like emission control devices on cars: they don't stop all the pollution. But they stop a lot of it it. So, when I say "stopped both" they did. They stopped flu and Covid. Did they stop all of it? No. But the flu tanked compared to normal and it was attributed to distancing and masking. See how that works?

The U.S. had the worse record because it's totally profit driven. — MondoR

The U.S. had it worse because 45% of our country is Republicans who refused to help America. DOH!

As for killing people, vaccination does nothing to reduce the viral load. Natural immunity is 27 times better. You took the jab. Live with the consequences. Don't expect other people to follow your lead. Unfortunately, people are being forced to experiment with their lives just to satisfy hysterical people such as yourself. — MondoR

Did you do the research? LOL! Dr. Mondo! :rofl:

All they did was call the flu, Covid so they could collect three extra money. — MondoR

No, this was before they had Covid tests but they have had flu tests for a long time. You stand corrected.

How could a mask stop the flu virus and not Covid?? — MondoR

They stopped both. Imagine how bad it would have been if everyone was like you!

BTW, they are predicting a pretty bad flu season, masks and all. — MondoR

I thought you didn't trust "they." LOL! Seems you cherry pick what you want to rely on.

Did I hear a thank you for having the far superior natural immunity? — MondoR

No, you heard me accuse you of negligent homicide.

You probably passed on the virus to tons of people. Shame on you for being a silent killer. — MondoR

No, because I also distanced and masked.

Ditto for carrying the flu virus, and any other pathogen. — MondoR

Did you see what happened to flu numbers because of distancing and masking? Remember when this all started and the people like you kept trumpeting the number of flu deaths every year, as if Covid wasn't any worse? DOH!

Everyone is going to get it. — MondoR

They are now that you and your ilk are killing them.

This guy sums it up. It's not about the virus or the shot.

Natural immunity is 27 times more effective. — MondoR

Then why don't we just give Covid to everyone? You know, kill off the weak.

Did you ever think it might not be about those who survive it?

I want to trade your will to spread your nasty, filthy germs with my will to not let you. I'm not afraid of the virus and my language is not evidence of fear. You're not seeing fear from those of my persuasion. If you had fear you'd get the shot. I said if YOU had fear you'd get the shot. I'm not afraid of the virus or the shot. — AJJ

I stand by all of that. You said you were afraid of the shot. It's you that said you are afraid, not me. I got the shot. I got it for people, because I was asked to step up for others You aren't smart enough to be afraid of the virus or the shot. You are just inconsiderate, disrespectful and selfish, aka a POS.

You can admit you don't fear the virus or the shot. You aren't smart enough to know better than the CDC, et al. You just don't like the people who are politely asking you to step up. Go ahead, you'll feel better. It will be cathartic.

There isn’t anything more to say about it. — AJJ

Sure there is. You can admit you don't fear the virus or the shot. You aren't smart enough to know better than the CDC, et al. You just don't like the people who are politely asking you to step up. Go ahead, you'll feel better. It will be cathartic.

There it is, clear as day. — AJJ

I said if YOU had fear you'd get the shot. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?

You said you had fear but won't get the shot. I didn't say anything about me. I'm not afraid of the virus or the shot. You aren't either. You aren't afraid of the shot. Your just a POS.

The fear we’re seeing from those of your persuasion appears to be unacknowledged and uncontrolled; this is what motivates the hostility. — AJJ

You're not seeing fear from those of my persuasion. You're seeing push-back against the inconsiderate, disrespectful, selfish BS of those of your persuasion. A parent doesn't fear and obstinate, petulant child.

My fear is acknowledged and controlled; — AJJ

No, actually, it's not. You don't fear. Your just inconsiderate, disrespectful and selfish. If you had fear you'd get the shot.

.

I am afraid of the vaccine. I believe the accounts (because why shouldn’t I?) of blood clots, heart inflammation, blindness, cognitive difficulty and so on; these things scare me far more than the virus does. — AJJ

I don't believe you. No one is that stupid.

I’m a POS because you perceive me as doing something you’re afraid of, i.e. spreading my “nasty, filthy germs”. — AJJ

No, again, didn't you read what I wrote? You are a POS because of your politics. You aren't afraid of the vaccine, or Covid, or needles. You just don't like the politics of or the people who support it. You're a hater. That makes you a POS.

Natural immunity has been shown to be substantially better. Sorry. — MondoR

We can agree that you are sorry. As to the rest: "The findings highlight an advantage bestowed by natural infection rather than vaccination, but the authors caution that the benefits of stronger memory B cells do not outweigh the risk of disability and death from COVID-19.

“While a natural infection may induce maturation of antibodies with broader activity than a vaccine does—a natural infection can also kill you,” says Michel C. Nussenzweig, the Zanvil A. Cohn and Ralph M. Steinman professor and head of Rockefeller’s Laboratory of Molecular Immunology. “A vaccine won’t do that and, in fact, protects against the risk of serious illness or death from infection.”

https://www.rockefeller.edu/news/30919-natural-infection-versus-vaccination-differences-in-covid-antibody-responses-emerge/

A matter of quashing someone’s perceived will to do something you’re afraid of. — AJJ

Nope. I want to quash your will because you are a POS. Not because I'm afraid of a virus. You went back and looked through my posts so you obviously saw where my motivations are political, not scientific.

Next time ask me, or use better judgement. — MondoR

Better check with your doctor. Antibodies from infection don't last. I would ask you, but you're not an expert and don't know what you are talking about. Dr. Mondo. LOL!

I’m not very afraid of this virus and so I can’t imagine speaking of it in that fashion. — AJJ

I'm not afraid of the virus and my language is not evidence of fear. What is fearful about this: "I want to trade your will to spread your nasty, filthy germs with my will to not let you." I want to trade your will to shoot me with my will to not let you. It's a matter of will, not fear. DOH!

but I too will do my best. — MondoR

Your best is to get the free shot. But if we lost the war, it's due to the incubation of non-vaxxed, non-distanced, non-masked folks; not vaxxed folks. (Delta, etc.)

Do you deny that you’re fearful of the virus? — AJJ

Yes, I deny it, for me. I am concerned for others, but more from a civic duty standpoint. I'm no big fan of humanity in general, but this is not the hill to die on. And while I am not an expert, I roll the dice and bet on those who I think are experts.

I personally accept that fear plays a role on both sides - do you? — AJJ

No. I know many who got the shot for others, even with the alleged risk. I think it's an old school thing that many folks today just wouldn't understand.

It's War! But it's just begun and be prepared for a long fight. I'm sure the pharmaceuticals are dreaming up all kinds of new stuff to inject into your body. I hope you are tough enough to get through it. I'll be rooting for you! — MondoR

I think we already lost, thanks to the likes of you.

To the Front lines! This is War!! — MondoR

It's either that or spit on the troops and aid and abet the virus.

Then force is the only option on the table. Plain and simple. — Wheatley

Force by cancel culture consequences, ostracization. Don't want to play! Stay home.

How about trying to change these statistics in the next elections? — ssu