Report to Greco by Nikos Kazantzakis.

Why is that wrong? — RogueAI

Because it is gradually degenerating our power to imagine and create.

On AI progress; as I say javi2541997, I use AI daily to help me with work and personal tasks, as do my friends. Why don't you think it counts as progress? — Mijin

Well, if you use it as a tool, I think it will not be a real issue after all. I am sceptical towards AI because it surpassed the ability to think and create of some people, and I think it is a bit dangerous. For example, I am a non-native English speaker, and I like to check my grammar on QuillBot because it helps me to learn, and it is fun how this bot works. Nonetheless, I remember using ChatGPTto proofread my grammar once, and it totally changed the sense and meaning of my text without asking for it. I have never asked for help in English since then.

Therefore, based on what I experienced using ChatGPT, I believe that some works that depend on human creativity and effort may be at risk. It would be nice if it helped me to find some inspiration. For example, if I say, 'Hey, AI, give me some advice on children's literature because I want to write a book.' Such an arrangement would be acceptable. It just helps me. But I see it wrong if I ask the AI to write a children's literature book by itself, with me being the one who writes the prompts.

It has been used in the wrong way!! The solution: We write, and it helps us with prompts.

Exactly.

For the reasons above expressed, I do not see AI as something as important as some people do. It is an important, sophisticated programme, yes. But it has its own limits, and we should be careful when we use it. You gave a good example regarding the spiral of negative thoughts that the AI can lead some users into. However, there is also a sensitive issue regarding our personal data. I think some people provide a lot of personal and private information. For example, some individuals share details about their relationships or disclose whether they have a mental illness. Such behaviour is very dangerous, and I am happy that the EU is legislating on this matter, fortunately.

but you could probably argue that the current day has the most inequality than any other point in history if you consider the massive wealth of certain people. — ProtagoranSocratist

Is there more inequality now than in the past when 1850s children (for example) didn't have the chance to study because this was reserved for only the wealthiest? I honestly think that the world, with nuances, has progressed enough in most of the countries. However, I would not consider AI as progress; that is what seems to argue.

Your first post is really nice, and welcome to the forum. Enjoy your time here.

As you stated, most of the "AIs" are like mirrors reflecting our questions. It is clear that these tools or machines lack consciousness. However, the real problem is to precisely ask an AI to answer something. I think most of the people fell into this trap. The more information we provide to an AI, the worse off we are. We will gradually lose our ability to reason. The best solution is to try to find out the answers by ourselves rather than ask a cold machine what we would like to read or hear.

frank, perhaps @BelegCZ uses it as a experiment to prove the dangers and risks of Artificial Intelligence.

@Nils Loc

First, I ended up with the conclusion that, for the reasons you expressed above, there are differences between yourself here, in reality, and then yourself in my dreams. It seems that the latter is like a hologram or a figure in a mirror that I should not trust in.

I can't agree with that. The fact that my mind may cheat me in my dreams is somehow true, but it is not always the case. As I said in the OP, the dreams were just an exact reproduction of myself interacting with you in TPF. I thought it was very real until I woke up, and I realised that I was dreaming. That it was a dream and now I am in "the real world".

Nonetheless, I tried to think of it more deeply. It is important to begin with the observer: Javi, me.

I understand that the Cogito has always received criticism from many philosophers after Descartes posed this point. Yet I think it was actually a good example. I think in both reality and dreams; therefore, I am. Then, I exist.

Now that we are at this point, it is important to ask ourselves if everything around us exists as well. I don't want to jump in the rabbit hole of whether the external world is mind-created or exists with independence from us.

My point is that I think you exist because in different mental states you caused certain experiences and feelings in me. I think this is more than necessary to prove your existence. I don't care if you're real or a figment of my imagination; your source of existence is clear: experience.

Then if the observer gives as existent the perceived. Why do we need more to prove someone else's existence?

Interesting thoughts and post. It is late here, and I am tired as hell, so my brain is a bit off. I need to rest and sleep to heal my mind. I did a lot of things today. I promise I will answer you with a more elaborate reply tomorrow morning. Furthermore, I want to think about it more deeply before answering.

As a forethought, I will explore and discuss your perspective on why the people in real life differ from the people that appear in my dreams. I think it is plausible that I can experience the same thing twice in both living and dreaming. But I am sleepy, and I can't elaborate on this for now. Until tomorrow! :wink:

I’m confused. Above you say that an act of remembering makes something non-fiction but below you write that remembering the past makes it fiction. — Joshs

Pardon. What I tried to explain is that fiction and non-fiction sometimes interfere with each other. My past experiences are not fictional, but if I were a writer, I guess I might use some "fiction" to write a plausible story.

Their style of thinking is not linear. — Joshs

Are you really sure? Imagine for an instance you dream of a friend or family member of your childhood. They randomly appear in your dreams, after years of missing. I guess you could not say that you dreamt of unknown people or that your dream was bizarre. Precisely. Thanks for your memories; you can link those people to the source of your experience. That was what happened to me. I literally dreamt that I was interacting with members of this forum, and the thinking was very "linear". The disappointment came when I woke up and realised that everything was a dream, but look, here we are having a written interaction with each other. It is not very different from the dream I had.

What’s the difference between dreaming about me and being a novelist who writes a story with me as one of the characters? — Joshs

The second is fiction, while the first is an act of mind remembering (while I am sleeping) people I know and whom I interacted with. Furthermore, a novelist is conscious that what he writes is fiction. The level of realism varies by the type of novel, as some novels can be very realistic; however, most narratives still involve fictional elements. A dream is, in most cases, a reproduction of what we experienced before. They are sometimes bizarre and incoherent, but these are the exception.

Novelists often say the characters come to life and tell them what they want to do. Do you think a novelist distinguishes between the reality of their dreams and that of their writerly imagination? — Joshs

This is a very complex question to answer. I have not met a professional writer yet, but I tried writing some short stories to post them here in TPF. So, speaking from my experience, I can tell you that both paths intersect. I remember writing a short story about a summer day with a friend of my childhood whom I have never seen afterwards.

The characters (my friend and me) were, at the same time, both real and fictional. They were real because we exist, and I can prove that without doubt, but they were also fictional because I wrote a short story when we were toddlers, and we are no longer like that. Therefore, I can assume that a past version of myself is fictional. Furthermore, I admit that everything around us is more impressive when we are kids, so I guess my short story had fictional parts, even though I claimed that my work was based on a real-life story...

At least I was able to distinguish that my friend was real and that I put some "imagination" in our childhood memory.

Does my appearance in your fiction prove my existence? — Joshs

You haven't appeared in my fiction yet. :smile: You only appeared in both my reality (interacting with you right now) and in dreams. And yes, your existence is absolutely proven in these experiences.

My point was to note that there are people out there that would utilize your criteria to come to conclude that Zeus -- or maybe other, more plausible cosmic figures -- also exist. — Moliere

I understand. My arguments seem to be more transcendental than I thought.

Clearly I'm missing something. If the experience of interacting with me in a dream is the same as in reality, and I didn't cause your dream experience, then why believe i caused the real experience at all? At the very least it makes my status as cause suspect. — hypericin

You are assuming that dreams are necessarily caused by something or someone. Didn't you ever think that we just dream because our minds simply do so? That our mind deploys such located data like a flower expels pollen?

I attach relevance and importance to the fact that I experienced exactly the same thing both dreaming and awake. For this reason, I may approach a basic notion: you (the person whom I interact with) exist.

Have you ever noticed that when you try to make sense of a dream strictly on the basis of remembered perceptual data (the identification of people, things and the actions that are being performed, like flying) the narrative of the dream appears bizarre and incoherent? — Joshs

It is true that dreams and nightmares tend to be incoherent in most of the cases. They can deceive us, even though they are composed of information stored in our minds based on our experiences. Nonetheless, I personally believe that there are always some exceptions. My dream did not have anything incoherent nor bizarre. It was just about me interacting with you. I understand. You can say that I spent so many hours here, accumulating a lot of data, that it is obvious that you would appear in my dream. Yet, I also read a lot of Greek mythology or fantasy tales, and these characters do not show up in my dreams. My point is that their source of existence is missing in both my knowledge and consciousness. Then, I consider these characters as non-existent. But, since you appeared in my dreams looking very real, I guess your existence is plausible and my dream was more legit than bizarre.

Dont be too sure you’re dreaming about so and so just because the dream image looks like them. The feeling accompanying the image may lead you to someone else. And often, what starts out as one person morphs into someone else. Follow the feelings , not the images. — Joshs

Exactly by following my feelings, I came to the conclusion that you exist. :smile: I know that an image (like a mirror) can prove me wrong or cheat me.

:up: :up:

You're asking the eye to see itself. As always, it will go to work trying to give you the explanation you seek. — frank

Frank, I agree with all your post, and I see myself represented in it. Nonetheless, I don't seek for an answer. It is just that I realised something that is obvious but was hidden from me. That you exist. I don't think my thoughts are fallacious. Yes, it lacks better quality writing, but I follow Davidson's view on where my beliefs and rationality come from. I guess I refer to "source" when he talked about webs.

If it were then would it not be the case that God or Zeus is real for some, and not real for others?

That is, some would say that they have made an impact on them -- so just as I conclude that money is real so do I conclude that Zeus is real every time there's a lightning storm. — Moliere

It might be.

But I hardly see the possibility of dreaming with God or Zeus in any circumstances. I just can't see it as plausible, even with the fact they are anthropomorphised, and my mind should easily be able to locate them in my dreams. But, for some reasons, they don't appear in my real life nor in my dreams. Therefore, I believe their existence is highly unlikely.

My point is that some may argue that Zeus made an impact on him. But, upon serious reflection, does Zeus really interfere with people while they are asleep? I think this is key. For the moment, you (members of TPF) caused certain experiences, things, episodes, etc. in both my real life and dreams. Therefore, your existence is more plausible than Zeus'.

I agree, sort of.

First, I think I didn't claim that your existence made a cause in my dreams, and I did because I write a lot of word salad. I am sorry because it wasn't my intention. What I said is that the source of your existence seems legit to me because I had (literally) the same experience of interacting with you in both reality and dreams. For me, this is more than sufficient to claim that you actually exist. This is not about identifying a cause, but rather exploring the origin of why you influence certain experiences or stimuli in my life.

On the other hand, I even believe that my point would also be plausible if you were AI, because my argument is that I suggest you exist because you interfere in me. It is not possible to dream of God or Zeus because they never made an impact on me. But I consider it plausible to dream of you, Michael or Baden. Isn't this a good starting point to consider people real?

Whether my dream is irrelevant or not is not the case, Michael. The point is that I have knowledge and consciousness that you exist because you caused me certain experiences in both dreams and reality. Disagreeing with my point may mean that you do not exist in one of these. :sad:

I am interacting with you right now, so you exist. Wait when I dream of you. :cool:

You've used the phrase "dreaming with" several times, whereas "dreaming of" sounds more apt. It's kind of odd because in order to dream with someone you'd have to share in the same content. — Nils Loc

It was a grammar oopsie, sorry.

The frustration of a lucid dream is apparent in and round those rare moments when you take what is occurring in a dream to be reality. The only notable example of this was thinking I had a drawer full of cash, which evaporated on waking. — Nils Loc

It is frustrating butsatisfactory at the same time. Lucid dreams are fun, yet I think I should not consider my dream as lucid because I wasn't aware that I was dreaming of you. I came to this conclusion when I woke up.

At times, I have dreamt that I am interacting on the forum and either disappointed or relieved that the exchange was not 'real'. — Jack Cummins

I know that feeling. I experienced something similar. After waking up, I felt disappointed because the mentions were all products of my dream. Nonetheless, I still think that my dream did not cheat me because I actually dreamt with people who I interact with in this forum. If they also appear in my dreams, then they have to be real. You evoke certain experiences in me that lead me to believe you exist.

You’re begging the question.

Your argument is now “if I dream of X and if X exists then X exists”. — Michael

I guess you disagree with my notion, right?

You’re arguing that dreaming of X is proof that X exists.

If the argument fails when X is Zeus then it fails when X is Michael. — Michael

No, it does not fail.

There are different subjects in your premises. Zeus is a deity, and its characteristics are based on Greek mythology. It is the subject of a "myth", nothing close to something real.

Meanwhile, Michael or Javi is real, because you are causing me to feel certain experiences. There are some chances that you might appear in my dreams, because the source of your existence (at least in what I consider real) is based in my experience of interacting with you. Then, you exist.

I have never experienced Zeus, nor did I dream with him. I think it is pretty obvious the cause: his source of existence is missing.

However, the source of your existence is obvious to me.

My dream was based on the experience of interacting with other living beings like me, not deities or gods. I believe that addresing Zeus is not particularly relevant to the existence of you, me, and the other members of this forum.

This thread is very intriguing, and the replies are informative. Yet I don't know whether it should be observed from a physicalism perspective or perhaps idealism. This is what makes me struggle the most.

I think it's mysterious that even with knowledge of all the laws of physics, it seems impossible to decide whether plants can suffer. — SolarWind

They (some at least) have awareness and memory. That's sufficient. I suspect they have that capability. — noAxioms

As @noAxioms pointed out, some plants have sensory abilities. It is true that plants do not have pain receptors, because they do not have nerves (or a brain), so they do not "suffer" or feel pain as we do.

The post of @SolarWind made me think if he referred to psychological or physical suffering. It is understandable that a carrot (for example) does not suffer when we trim or uproot it. We can eat a carrot without the worry if we did a kind of botanical torture. But some plants have obvious sensory abilities, such as the Venus flytrap. If this plant has an incredible sensory capacity to trap insects, it might have a similar sense to perceive suffering.

I read a brief article on the matter in Britannica and it says: Plants have exceptional abilities to respond to sunlight, gravity, wind, and even tiny insect bites, but (thankfully) their evolutionary successes and failures have not been shaped by suffering, just simple life and death. Do Plants Feel Pain?

And this example is pretty awesome: Arabidopsis (a mustard plant commonly used in scientific studies) sends out electrical signals from leaf to leaf when it is being eaten by caterpillars or aphids, signals to ramp up its chemical defenses against herbivory. While this remarkable response is initiated by physical damage, the electrical warning signal is not equivalent to a pain signal, and we should not anthropomorphize an injured plant as a plant in pain.

In conclusion, plants do receive stimuli when they receive some kind of physical damage, but it is different from the pain that humans experience. Still, they have awareness of something.

Selected Works and Personal Notes (1880 - 1885) by Anton Chekhov.

Try to grab the link on the website shared by @praxis. Upload the image there, and you will see multiple options.

The third option, starting from below, says: "direct link to forums". It should work this way.

So you want to be spared: — Roke

If you do not quote or press the reply button, it is very hard to follow who you are replying to.

Yes, that's how public houses looked under Franco's regime. They look like they were printed because they are flat and similar to each other. I was raised in a "public house" (we call them VPO= Viviendas de Protección Oficial) building, but my parents' house was built in 1994, so it is obvious that everything is better in the sense of urbanisation.

As you noted, the blocks are repetitive, and the main plan was to build as many flats as possible to locate the workers there. I don't see it as problematic, because everyone deserves to live in a house. The problem is that, in most cases, those blocks had poor materials, they were located in the outskirts, and they lacked basic public services such as a bus or train station. But, again, everything started to change for the better since the 1980s when these neighbourhoods received more funds.

Glad you are not living there -- you were just visiting, right? — BC

Exactly. I ended up there randomly. The main road was interrupted by works, and I needed to cross through there to go to my destination. Otherwise, I don't think I would approximate myself to San Cristóbal.

I can find deteriorating neighborhoods in Minneapolis; you can probably find them in your city, too. — BC

I'm revisiting this thread because I recently visited San Cristóbal (Madrid).

It is deteriorated, but the chimneys are what impressed me the most. The neighbourhood was a working-class building block of people working in the industry of bricks.



They [the industries] are now closed, and the hood experienced a financial recession. Most folks say this is the most "dangerous" place of Madrid.

Good point, Clarky.

I thought something similar: The girl seemed polite, and she felt self-conscious about wanting to eat the peaches in front of the person looking at her.

It is interesting that you and I perceived the same -- The girl felt self-conscious about something. I guess the expression of her eyes and the innocent position of her hands caught our attention.

This painting is beautiful, sincere, delicate, pleasant and with hints of melancholy.

Girl with Peaches by Valentin Serov.




It is (probably) one of the best paints I have ever seen, and it has become my favourite now.

Is the version you've read older or younger? — Dawnstorm

It is younger. It was written between 1979 and 1981.

There's a lot I can't say, because there's a lot I don't know. See? For example, I don't know how he framed the list you gave us. — Dawnstorm

Neither do I.

I do not have a big problem with his list nor the way he framed it. He was free to write about important books, and, according to the introduction, it seemed that those books were classics to him because they helped him to become a writer and a man of arts.

Nonetheless, I disagree (at least with the version I have) with how he overreacted. Because, as I said, he named his work "Why Reading the Classics". This means to me that he was inviting us into his canon of literature or aesthetics. I am grateful for that; but I think that I would have disagreed with him if I had had the opportunity to discuss his work with him.

Bias is inevitable, and I don't think eliminating bias is even something one should attempt. Especially not in an article that wavers between social and personal, like this one. — Dawnstorm

I agree.

Then, since bias is inevitable, I think he should have named his essay in a different manner. I repeat that the list is actually good, and I understand why he chose those books over others. Yet, I think that Calvino must have said that the list was a personal project rather than being objective.

And I hope you don't think I'm denigrating Don Quixote — Dawnstorm

German translation — Dawnstorm

No, no. I haven't thought of that while debating with you. Au contraire I believe you respect Don Quixote.
--------------
So, you are German or from Austria. Look at Calvino's list again then. He didn't mention any relevant work of your language, such as "The Nibelungenlied" or Rilke's poetry. When there is too many to name.

Rose, o pure contradiction, desire
to be no one's sleep beneath so many
lids.

- Rilke. :flower: :sparkle:

I think we are interpreting Calvino's essay differently. It is not a problem since literature is open to interpretation and criticism. For this reason, I still argue that it is surprising how Calvino skipped or missed very important authors, and he was biased with Italian writers. It would not be a problem if he would have called his work "my favourite books of all time" or "my top list of books I always enjoyed" etc.

But his essay is called "Why Reading the Classics". It means – at least to me – that he is inviting us to read them because those works are the epitome of literature, and we would miss important knowledge on literature if we did otherwise. I am not against his personal list. I just disagree with how he overreacted to those books and authors.

On the other hand, I disagree that Don Quixote is not necessary to be mentioned in his essay because it is already known by the vast majority. According to that point, he wouldn't have mentioned Odyssey as well, when this is another important and recognised work of literature.

It's like he's encouraging you to go beyond the well-known and figure out your own canon. — Dawnstorm

It might be.

Yes, but isn’t that the point? If he were an American, there would be Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Bellow, Melville, Whitman; all exceptional. In fact, one could probably make a list like this composed entirely of Americans. — Tom Storm

Tom, I guess I found the solution: why not write a list of classics of each country? :smile:

Might "a classic" just be called "a great book"? — BC

That is what I think, yes. At least it is more accurate than call them "Classics"

#5. "A classic is a book which even when we read it for the first time gives the sense of rereading something we have read before."

I like that. — BC

I also like that definition. In my edition it is located in the 2nd place, not the 5th; it was very important to him to reread some works. I wonder if he read them for pleasure or to help him become a better writer. We can't really know; Calvino was a bit ambiguous in this essay.

I've never liked Hemingway. — BC

Neither do I.

I read Don Quixote, once upon a time. — BC

Surprisingly, Calvino did not include Don Quixote in his list. He just mentioned "Tirant lo Blanch", an epic poem very similar to Cid. I mean, of course these are important and excellent books of my country, but putting them above Don Quixote... Wow! That was kind of excessive.

What about individual poems -- can they be classics along side novels? — BC

I think so, too.

There are poems which deserve to be regarded as classics, and I think that some are better than the books on Calvino's list. But I do not want to criticize him for this, because it is true that he focused on prose, not on poetry.

Honestly, if I were called to do a list of classic poets and poems, I would put haiku poets for sure, even though I understand that haiku are very ambiguous and they are hard to understand for Western readers. Then I am aware that doing a list of classics is a very serious task, not exempt from controversy.

"'I'm rereading...', never 'I'm reading...'" — Dawnstorm

This is true. Sorry for my mistake.

Edit: I just corrected it.

I find it more bizarre to see an Italian who doesn't include Virgil and the Commedia. It's like leaving out Shakespeare and Milton in English. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I thought the same. I believe he didn't add that since it would be too evident given that he is Italian. However, he made sure to mention his fellow (Italian) writers.

The idea of a “universally agreed upon” classic novel is probably seen as a bit outdated these days. — Tom Storm

I agree. :up:

Literary value is filtered through culture, history, and personal taste. — Tom Storm

True. But I believe that Calvino was more influenced by his personal taste than culture and history. This is why I dislike his bias towards Italian authors. Honestly, I didn't know most of them. Furthermore, I think that he missed important authors from Asia and Oceania. He started with good points on Greek literature because it is obvious that they shaped our thoughts and our opinion on culture. Yet, this even depends on what kind of culture we are talking about. I bet Asian students consider "Classics" the haiku and Samurai stories rather than Balzac.

I dislike most of Dostoyevsky I have read, except for his mercifully concise The Gambler - — Tom Storm

I also enjoyed The Gambler a lot! Why didn't you enjoy the rest of Dostoevsky's works? You are free to dislike it, but since I am a very big fan of him, I am here if you want to discuss something about him or his novels.

Not really. French novels have often been considered masterpieces of world literature, and writers like Voltaire, Balzac, Stendhal, Hugo, Flaubert, Zola, Maupassant, Proust, and Gide usually appear on those venerable lists of the 'greatest writers' of all time. I have read most of these and would consider them very fine, although Proust does bore me somewhat. — Tom Storm

I can't disagree with that. I understand that French writers had an important influence on most modern authors. Nonetheless, I still think that they are no longer that important. It appeared in other styles and authors, which can illustrate the modern readers. If you look closely at his list, it is obvious that it is very European, not to mention that he avoided important authors in Spanish. One French author is OK, but he seemed obsessed with them.

Classics are very much a collective canon; "individual classics" is an oxymoron. — SophistiCat

Exactly.

Perhaps, Calvino did a mix between the collective and the oxymoron. I fully agree with him when he stated the Odyssey as the first-ever classic work. I am aware that there are also other works written in Sumerian, but Homer's works shaped the culture and literature of the world in the next generations.

On the other hand, it is remarkable that he also mentioned a large number of French authors. Although France was the epitome of the 19th century, it is no longer a known country for its literature. I can understand that Balzac is very important, but considering him a classic when his works didn't survive in the 21st century is a bit excessive. I thought that Clavino was very influenced by what was the literature stream of his time. It is strange that he didn't have a look at Asian literature, for instance.

But it is just that, a personal list.

You mentioned Calvino's bias towards Italian authors. Each culture will have its own version of the literary canon — SophistiCat

Absolutely.

But it is a bit unfair that he claimed those works as "classics", and keep in mind that he even called the essay "Why Reading the Classics", meaning that he is inviting us to read them, and it seems that we are missing "something" if we do otherwise.

If a Greek tells me: "Homer is a Classic." I have to agree with him. But I don't know if we could consider Odysséas Elýtis as a classic, although he was an excellent poet and a Nobel laureate.

If a Russian fella tells me: "Dostoevsky's works are Classics". I have to agree with him as well. But, what works of Dostoevsky? Because some of them are unknown to the vast majority of the public.

For that reason, I believe that in terms of writing an essay about the "Classics", we have to leave aside our bias towards our country and culture and try to have a more universal opinion. Again, I think my list of classics would have more works of Japanese and Chinese authors, for instance.

Minding is a metacognitive activity (i.e. strange looping process), and not an entity; it is what an ecology-situated, sufficiently complex brain can do, rather than some ontologically separate (e.g. non-physical) or "emergent" woo-stuff. Also: not to be confused with consciousness. — 180 Proof

:up:

What do you think the boundaries of both are? Is there a difference between minding and consciousness?