Let's not waste our time — Agent Smith

What?

Perhaps we should do the right thing and offer people the choice - natalism/antinatalism - and let the chips fall where they may. — Agent Smith

:up: :100:

We are free to choose whether natalism or antinatalism since the moment children are no longer that important to maintain familiar economy!

obviously the religious traditions never intended this to be the case when using the word. Mostly they mean with omnimpotent more potent than what a single human being could do on his own. — Tomseltje

It is all about hope. This is why religious traditions have always intended to create a “super” (or even “titanic”) figure. To pursue their credibility through fear rather than knowledge

"So he/she/it can do something that cannot be done" or a similar contradictio in terminis. — Tomseltje

:100: :clap:

It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and frar of reprisals. — Tom Storm

So interesting indeed. They were more afraid of the reprisals than dying and end his life destroying everything they built during Nazi Germany.

Presumably some suicide attempts are intended to fail to begin with — baker

Then, those suicide attempts are fake. We cannot play about dying or not dying because whenever we pass through it there is no coming back. This is why, supposedly, a suicidal wants to attempt. Not come back to "life" because it "s*cks"
So, if I try a suicide attempt with the intention to fail, I am contrary to the nature of suicide itself.

It is imaginable that a serious suicide attempt (one where the reasonably predictable outcome of the method is death) brings about a special change in the person's cognition (on a biochemical level). — baker

It would make a big impact whenever you feel you are closer to death than ever. It takes a while until a suicidal makes his final "choice" because he tends to plan which path is better to end his life.
If after giving a try it results in surviving that's would affect psychologically. To be honest, I would feel pretty bad with myself and think: "I am so pathetic that I can't even end my own life"
[...] I don't know. I don't think I would feel better if I survive a suicidal attempt.

Keep in mind that suicide (supposedly) is the end to all pain and suffering. It has to work. A suicidal doesn't expect to fail the attempt

Not just he, but many other Nazis as well. — baker

Exactly, because those Nazi officials understood suicide as a honorable ending. Quite similar to Japanese commanders after Nagasaki and Hiroshima attacks.

Laws prescribe what should occur in the future. — Art48

No. The law is approved afterwards. I mean, when the issue which is object of the law occurred already. This is why laws change through the years, because you need to adapt them in what is happening right now.
You cannot promote laws with the uncertainty of what the future holds. That would make the law so useless

if suffering is self-caused (karma/east and you sow what you reap/west) then death (Algos' alterego Thanatos) must be too, oui? — Agent Smith

Exactly. Well written, Sir. I see suffering and death correlated in self-caused actions. I don't see it in exterior facts but it is true that we also have to take some consideration about them.

We're all committing suicide then, right? — Agent Smith

One day, soon or after, we will be dead. Each is individual is free to choose the path to do so.

They are both dead now. — Paine

Here is your answer then. There is not a difference between the two scenarios of your friends. One interpreted death in his own beliefs or thoughts and the other did the same too but the result is the same for both: deceased

A: We need God? Why?

B: To give us hope for a better life. Here, we suffer pain and disease and war.

A selfish use of God. You only want him whenever the circumstances turn bad. Just accept our daily lives are unpleasant.

Without God, what would you tell a mother who just lost her child?

My condolences as the average educated person should do.

Is there anything we inherently deserve? — TiredThinker

I would say happiness but the concept itself is so abstract that depends on how each person interprets it.

How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself? — 180 Proof

We do not have clear information about after death experience yet. This kind of "uncertainty" gives some "hope" to all of those who are suffering a lot of pain in life.
It is true that the act of suicide could be selfish towards family and friends who would suffer the lost of the deceased.
I think suicide should be understood in an individualistic way. If we see it as "collective" it would lose their real nature or meaning.

Were there any cases of suicides during the holocaust? I don't recall reading of mass suicides among those interned in Nazi concentration camps — Agent Smith

That's a pretty good question and thought. I do not recall a specific case of a suicidal victim doing such act just to avoid the concentration camp.
Nevertheless... we have to highlight that Adolf Hitler killed himself before seeing the loss of Nazi Germany

Do you see any light at the end of this tunnel? — Agent Smith

I see it but I am not brave enough to walk up there :death:

Imagine you are upset one day and you decide to saw one of your ears off, a la van gogh. That's not sensible. You've made your situation worse, not better. Now you are upset and you only have one ear. — Bartricks

But here Van Gogh injured himself without dying. It is not the same goal. Probably he did so, as you explained, just to calm some of his anger but I guess he never thought about suicide at all.

The only exception would be if your life is terrible with no prospect of it being otherwise. — Bartricks

Then, you are agree with me with the fact that suicide could be the ending to many unfixable problems.

Physically yes, but not mentally.
Anyway, why I have to do such act? The hermit can do it himself

But... Do you mean harmful in a physical or psychological context? Because for sure it is so painful killing myself if I do sp in a hot fire. Nevertheless, a suicidal tend to find out another alternatives such as hanging.
It would sound so drastic but after doing such act the suicidal would find inner peace and stop suffering from psychological harm

That's why killing others is so wrong.

Exactly, and do you know why is it wrong? Because the killer is selfish and is manipulating other people's lives. That's why is unfair and sad one someone kills another. Each human should have the right of deciding about their own existence. I mean, the chance to decide whenever I don't want to live anymore

Well, yes. It is harm to all the people who are related to the suicidal because they would suffer their lost, but I do not see it as harmful to the dead one because he/she chose this path to end their pain

What I want to say is that suicide depends on circumstances. We cannot say as an overall that the act itself is "contrary to one's interests" because we do not really know what struggles someone who has such big dilemma.
So, I am not sure I am agree if suicide is contrary to my own interests.

Philosophy's job is to provide the tools to innoculate us against the mystification caused by deep grammatical trickery. — Cuthbert

Well written, Sir.
:clap: :100:

Suicide is an insult to life, delivered in the most ways possible.

I think one of the main inconvenients here is the act of seeing "life" as something sacred or worthy. You see suicide as an insult to life because (I guess) you understand there are a lot of reasons to keep living doesn't matter the "temporary" problems we have to deal with.
But what if I say that life is pointless... I am not insulting myself but doing an act of revolution against the status quo. Some see it as the worst scenario but others see it as a solemn solution to the problems.

That's a very important conjecture. To be honest, 180 Proof, I don't know what to answer precisely because I don't know what it feels like when someone survive a suicide-attempt. I wish most of the cases we see the scenario which @Tom Storm shared with us and they end up finding a cause to keep living.
But, probably, there are other examples of survivors that realize that they do not want to die because the act itself can hurt others connected to them such as family or friends

Why seek a permanent escape from temporary problems?

Unfortunately, they are not temporary but perpetual.

How can you be so optimistic that the end is certainly the end of suffering?

It is not about optimism but hope. I guess it is a weak decision to fix the problems but the concept of "end" could be the finish of some important issues such as suffering or depression.

What I try to contemplate with you is that a person with these kind of thoughts rarely have interests or a stupid reason. They just want to finish their lives. Simple as it sounds. The paradox here is the issue that specialists who want to prevent these people from killing themselves tend to show them the pursue of a life full of stupidity and useless. Or as they say so constantly: The way of keep living not matter the suffering

The bottom line is that it's such a great harm to die we want to prevent people from doing it in moments of stupidity — Bartricks

Understandable. But I do not see "stupidity" when someone is walking through a period where they want to kill themselves. I think is a very serious situation and I can't imagine a person with the aim of killing himself just randomly.
Every suicidal tend to have a respectful cause to their actions

You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents

Exactly. This a very important point. Parents do not deserve experience the pain of losing a son because of suicide. I guess it could be the worst scenario possible.
But I am not referring to individuals who are surrounded by family or good friends. I am referring to lonely people. This tend to be the main characteristic of a suicidal.

Most people do find a way to work through the issues and find reasons to live.

Glad to know most of the people find out a situation where they can skip suicide. But Tom, I want to respect all of those who end up in this context. I will not criminalise them. Whenever this issue happens we have to take care of them with honoured acts.
I wish I could understand them better. But I am closer to the meaning of suicide in a Japanese literature point of view

Well written, sir. Excellent statement :100: :clap:

At the end of the day you're going to make the final decision: Life or death. Love or lovelessness. It's up to you. — Moses

Is up to me but whatever I would do it would make some suffer or pain to others, for example my parents or others who care about me. It is not so easy to make "own decisions"

Perhaps one could make an argument in places like Japan where space was limited suicide was more condoned for this reason — Paulm12

Sorry but I do not understand this argument. Do you mean space as the territory itself?
Japan has never been so drastic with suicide until the last decade of this century creating the Ministry of "Loneliness" Tetsushi Sakamoto (坂本 哲志) Minister of Loneliness.
Their artists have always showed suicide as art or as an act of purity

This is why I sound sceptical with religion or sacred books. Why does the Old Testament commands me to choose life over and over again? Like why the prophets were obsessed with the act of living.

I cannot looking for something that doesn't exist

If there is no soul we will already spend the vast majority of time in nothingness so nothing really matters — Moses

Well, I think this is one of the main uncertainties of our lives: the pointless of existence. What really matters at all?

Everyone suffers, and often in their own unique way. Others can often help us alleviate our own suffering — Moses

Good point but trust me, it impossible to help. We will suffer most of the days in this life. We can help each other but it would alleviate few seconds compared to all hours with pain

If you say that a suicide is somehow to be blamed then people will think you are cruel and heartless and have no understanding of the sadness and mental disturbance that leads to someone taking their own life. — Cuthbert

Agreed. At least this is the thought I wish is implemented in most people's minds

This is true if we adopt value neutral individualism, but the Judeo-Christian tradition is not fundamentally individualistic. In Judaism -- out of which Christianity comes from -- our bodies are not on our own, but rather basically considered on loan from God. — Moses

Yes, that's true. I do understand that in these specific religions our body belongs to God so, whenever we hurt ourselves, we are hurting God too.
But I am not agree. I just see it as the average religious subterfuge which only prolong our suffering. It is not fair the statement that I hurt God killing myself but not when I am suffering previously.
If we constantly use the argument of "not hurting" God we are forced to always suffer

The predominant view is that suicide is a sign of mental disturbance. — Cuthbert

I never understood why [suicide] is seen that way. So I guess I am in the minority side.

In the modern West, any connection of suicide to honour and disgrace or to sin and damnation is forbidden and will attract the strongest condemnation. — Cuthbert

It is forbidden because religion has a lot of power in the making of laws in Western world. They always have condemned it and then they influenced the legislative process to make it as a law or rule. To be honest I think it is unfair.
Would you call "delinquent" to a suicidal person?

Some Prefer Nettles, Jun'ichirō Tanizaki (谷崎 潤一郎)

The Sound of the Mountain, Yasunari Kawabata (川端 康成)

If it terminates, this means that there will come a time when you never exist again.

Beautiful, doesn't it? Not existing anymore could mean not experiencing the same failures and disasters again. I do not see this uncertainty in a negative effect. We should be grateful for this gift that the universe brings us.