fall victim to natural disasters and unrest so that we'll have to pick of the pieces and rebound from a major setback comparable to the ancient Greek or Medieval dark age in Europe? — Enrique

To be honest and I would sound pessimistic, this is what exactly will happen to us. A big natural disaster is coming and it looks like nobody wants to stop it. Our public administration is not facing with interesting or important deals. Well, you can already notice it on Greece’s fires and all over the Mediterranean Sea. Also, important to reflect how the temperature increased so much during the last decade. Here, where I am, is 06:19 and we all already have 22º grades. It isn’t crazy.

What kinds of events will culminate this tumultuous and uncertain era in history, will society stagnate, and where will we be in a hundred or a thousand years? — Enrique

Probably a big desertification that would lead us in big war which main objective could be the search of water. But who knows? There are some chanceándote that the richest businessmen would can afford trips to Mars...
I want to say that the future is so pessimist.

He was a good king, but he was a king and not the prime minister of a liberal democracy. That's the point that I've been trying to get across. — thewonder

In this point I am completely agree with you :up:

Yes, you are right according to Afghanistan context. But you wrote that quote referring monarchy in general concepts. There are plenty of monarchies that are more developed than republican countries :chin:

A liberal democracy and a constitutional monarchy are not the same thing. — thewonder

Norway, Denmark, Sweden or Netherlands are not liberal democracies then?

Another link of interest.
Navarre & the Basques

In any case, I haven’t seen any evidence that Franco was a “Nazi” or "racist" or anything like that? Though I could be wrong. — Apollodorus

No, you are not wrong. He was not racist neither nazi. Under his regime, he promoted a lot of laws accepting double nationality with Latin American countries like Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, etc...
He also developed (ironically) a constitution to Ecuatorial Guinea.
I guess one of the objectives was abolish socialism and communism, he did not cara about race or blood purity as Hitler wanted. But oh boy! it is so difficult obligate the Basques, Catalonians or Gaelicians feel Spaniards because they have a hard attachment to their roots.

There was a wide range of different factors involved and it would be wrong to paint everything as just "Fascism". — Apollodorus

Agreed. It is so difficult to appoint a general factor to understand why Franco won a civil war which started in Canary Island and then lasted 34 damn years. There are a lot of factors but I guess the territory was key in this scenario. Furthermore francoism catholic ideas, Franco developed a map of Spain without autonomous regions. It was just "Spain" under the same law. This happened fue to one of the messes that the Republic did not avoid: the madness and changes of changing the map of spain just to satisfy the peripherals politicians (as Catalonia for example). Inside this mess, it is impossible to make a clear consensus in whatever aspect so Franco took advantage against a Republic which was already divided to territory stuff. The leftits, themselves, tend to being divided by regional issues.
So establish centralist map without territory federalism (as the Republic wanted) should ended this problems but only created others which follow until today.

Franco was a patriot who wanted to preserve Spanish culture. — Apollodorus

Interesting. I do not know how to answer this one... I do not know what is Spanish culture. It is a word which has many cultural points of view. Form my perspective, I would include Basque country but they do not feel Spanish enough... losing the Basques as nationalists was one of the biggest failures Spain ever made. We should respect more the basques, their language, culture, industries, etc... It is sad how they feel completely separated of Spain. There are zones that I do not like at all, specially the south they are lazy and live in backwards cities.
It always been so debated what is the meaning of Spanish culture and being Spaniard. I wish one day we can recover Basques. I want to live with them a period of my life and understand their way of seeing the life because they are the truest europeans not our mediterranean filthy ass abusive tourism.
What we had done wrong when they were sad and depressed whenever an ETA member died back between 70´s and 90´s.Euskadi Ta Askatasuna. Look:


There are lot of political conflicts and Basque was one of the toughest.

It seems more natural to relate "at the same time" to "be" rather than to "object": — litewave

But the object is the real subject of this Aristotle axiom. The act of potentially transforme is experienced by the object itself. The verb “to be” is just intrinsic.

I don't see that the article attributes the phrase "in the same respect" to the object. — litewave

Literally the article says:

An object can be potentially F and potentially not F, but it cannot be actually F and actually not F at the same time.

It is impossible that the same thing can at the same time both belong and not belong to the same object and in the same respect." — litewave

Aristotle meant to the object itself not the act of belonging to another.

The “same thing” that belongs must be one and the same thing and it must be the actual thing and not merely its linguistic expression. For example, it is possible for someone to be a pitcher and not a pitcher where “pitcher” in the first instance refers to a baseball player and in the second to a jug that can hold beer

Three Versions of the Principle of Non-Contradiction

Not to be pedant but Afghanistan is a Central Asian state — Olivier5

Don't worry and thank you for correct my mistake :up:

I remember some internal commentator saying glumly that Afghanistan had just taken a great leap forward into the 14th century — Wayfarer

It is interesting this news because what we consider as "XIVth century", for them, it is just living as how Quran or religion says. The talibans do not care about modernity neither civil rights. These concepts are something that we in the western have developed. It is not a real business in the Middle East.

Debating about something as complex as the rule of law in Afghanistan needs to have a better empathic view. First of all, we don't truly know what is the history of Afghans and their territory. We just know some brief articles from Wikipedia or West newspapers. It is difficult to understand such complex culture and values. For this reason I guess we should not speak about west things as "liberalism" or "monarchy" in a country of the Middle East completely surrendered by Islam principles. I guess one of the errors made back then was to establish a very "modern" state according to West values. Good intention but it was an argument to radicals to say "they are selling our Islam value to the west. The real law of Afghanistan is developed by God or Muhammad! Etc..."
Sometimes, what we consider as "modernized" principles cannot fit at all in some countries beacuse they have a sticky religion and custom beliefs. If we, the western, go there trying to "impose" what we consider as "democracy" they would do exactly the contrary.
Also, Afghanistan had bad luck in geographical aspects too. It always been a country which Soviet Unión wanted to control.

The 1964 Constitution of Afghanistan, though I am sure the regime made some progress in this regard, makes absolutely no mention of women's rights whatsoever, which is kind of a focal point in the article — thewonder

1964 is a "recent" date in relation to women's rights. I guess, according to that time, there wasn't true women rights around the world. This is another issue which took years to establish properly. We are living in an era right now that most of the women in the world don't feel discrimination but this issue was not common at all both in West and Asia world.
To be honest, the 1964 Afghanistan constitution was better than nothing. At least it was written as a parliament monarchy with its advantages and disadvantages but you know we have to start in some point better than being ruled by tribal entities.

It wasn't a modern democratic state; — thewonder

This can be another thread or debate we can discuss separately. How can we consider a State as "modern"? What is the meaning of modern?

ought not really to instill a sense of nostalgia within anyone with a healthy dose of skepticism of clandestine actions undertaken by the so-called "West" in the region. — thewonder

Yes, I am agree with you. This is due to of how sticky the tribesmen and religion is in Asia. It is so difficult to put “West values” so randomly. I guess it is a process which takes some years if the country has a chance to do so.

check out this obituary. — thewonder

The most important paragraph:

He built the country's first university, and developed cultural and commercial bonds with the West. Travellers began to view Afghanistan as an attractive destination, with its mountains, rich culture and the relics of many ancient civilisations.

It is dramatic how extreme religion or politics can destroy a country’s future and development. Afghanistan looked so attractive to all the West countries and then, since 1979 Taliban revolt the tables had turned for the worst. When you see or hear something related to Afghanistan you would think as a third world country with violence due to toxic religion which destroyed what was a good starting point for society.

Wasn't Iran a monarchy at that point? — thewonder

They were ruled by the “Shah”. It was like a monarchy but no as extremist as ayatollahs.

In an ideal world they'd let fat anti-vaxxers die instead of postponing medical treatment for other diseases because the IC is full. — Benkei

:rofl: :lol:

then carried out numerous executions once in power - not just communists, but liberals and centrists of all stripes. The aim was to roll back any progressive forces forever. — RolandTyme

Not only executions but expropriation of property of those leftists and liberals. After Franco won, his objective was to massacre all the “enemies” (when they were Spaniards too...) and then have a real “catholic and traditional state” I don’t even know why this misery lasted 34 years. This is why in nowadays there still be some wounds that are not recovered yet...

In effect, by still going by tribal law, rural Afghanistan rejected the modernity of Islam. It was only superficially converted. — Olivier5

True. Good point. But not only rural areas but sadly the most part of Afghanistan except Kabul. This country was always ruled by tribal organizations, so I guess it is not easy to establish a normal/regular administration system.

Is the rest of the universe simultaneously observing us just as we observe it? — Benj96

We do not know it yet. This a good question and an interesting debate. Liu Cixin, wrote a book about this issue called dark forest theory. This debate is all about if it is or not worhty to be obrserved by "others" in this vast universe. Check it out: The Dark Forest Theory and Paradox. I think you would like it.

In other words, we must make the efforts to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and network with them, co-exist, sharing tomorrow, etc. — DrOlsnesLea

Good initiative, but I guess it does not matter when Taliban group is so extremist. They do not want anything according to "west" nations or at least globalized world. They want to impose their own religious and political beliefs and ideas. We should not give up on them and still make some efforts to get Afghanistan a real free country.
Precisely, this is what happens in 1979 with Iran... which would have been a very developed country but then, radical islamists showed up.

Spaniards have plenty opportunities to learn better English with the help of the social media and other communication technologies? — Apollodorus

Good point. Apart from all the opportunities that every Spanish has to learn English, I guess it is key here to develop a "social" education system. Nordic countries are good in this issue.
Here in Spain the classes are so competitive and if they can do it they would destroy you just for some "good marks" in the exams. For this reason, if you are shy or introvert (as me for example) you would suffer a lot of "how is your English pronunciation" so I remember I didn't participate speaking in public when I was a kid at my English class.
But, I always been so lucky to have parents with money, so them paid me for four years in a row a private English teacher every Sunday. This helped me a lot to improve not only my English skills but the ability to speak in public. I remember one day reading a book. The first word of the paragraph was "schedule". I never seen it until that day so I got freeze trying to know how to say it properly, because it looked like "German" to me :rofl:
When my parents perceived this, apart from keeping me with the private teaching, they started to pay a lot of money in English education like bilingual school and college (around 800 and 1200 € per month). I went to US with a family (Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin
...) and EU (UK, Ireland, Scotland...) to be "around" only with native speakers so I was forced to speak properly English to get along with.
To be honest I am so lucky to have this kind of parents who put a lot of money in my English education but I do understand that all the Spaniards have not the luck as me... Here is when the public education should do something.

I was once told by Swedish students that the reason they speak such good English is that they watch English-language movies with Swedish subtitles. — Apollodorus

I exactly do the same since my teacher recommended it. I see American or British films in English. I no longer see it in Spanish.

But do you think better English would improve Spain's unemployment figures? — Apollodorus

I guess yes. This is due to the "dependent" of Spanish economy to the exterior and international market. Not only tourism but another elements as fruits, olives, meat, wine, etc...
We depend a lot of how other countries see us, so I think English is fundamental to improve our image and get more valuable profits.

Most of the technology that developed did not come out of the private sector, but the public sector. — Xtrix

Then, your are giving more points to my argument. The American public administration works well and is profitable. It is so worthy paying the average or regular taxes because the State makes a good expenditure. Motivates the citizens and then develop a good economic system with products (Internet, Apple, Microsoft, Social networks, etc...) and wealth. I guess you are not disappointed of how your State works, right?

Why do some rich Spaniards go to the USA? For the same reason rich people all over the world send their kids to Harvard and Yale. The USA has some of the best schools and doctors in the world -- if you can afford it. Likewise, Beverly Hills is pretty nice -- if you can afford it. So what? — Xtrix

So, the flow of money wins at the end of the day. Richest citizens go to Harvard or American hospitals not only because they can afford it but because they know they are better. Simple. Where you see a big investment (whatever issue) you will see big changes and improvements.
As you shared previously, it is important to make an equilibrium both in public and private sector. Depending a lot in the State, sometimes is not so worthy, trust me...

two parts of which describe qualities that cannot both exist in the same thing at the same time. — Citizendium

:up: :100:

Law Of Noncontradiction! — TheMadFool

Thanks for sharing. Another interesting article to read about.



This OP reminds me when we debated about Gödel's mathematics principles. Human mind can be sometimes so spectacular. As you shared with us in the first paragraph, we can develop in our mind a completely contradiction: Square circle.
Metaphysics can allow us to go further than our possibilities. It is the Great act of dreaming in "practice." This is the main reason why we can create or build aspects that previously we can think they are "impossible". Later on, giving a chance to our knowledge, we can improve the reality and get all what we were dreaming about.
(example: apart from 3D images, appoint a journey to the moon or Mars. This project looked impossible back in the day...)
I guess more important than a paradox (or whatever we can call this metaphysical issue :D) it is about how our mind can do excellent things. Thus, go further than reality could be.

It's an idle freedom. — baker

True, it could be an idle freedom. But we cannot expect that much of a country which live millions and millions of citizens. What can we do to control the people respecting at the same time the democracy? I guess this is only suitable in tiny countries with a good record of direct democracy like Denmark or Sweden (I am just guessing)

edit: so I did a little digging and this article supports this interpretation Dogs may be more self-aware... — Pantagruel

Good one! You can’t imagine how happy I felt when I have read this: :100:

Although dogs can't identify themselves in the mirror, they still have some level of self-awareness and ace other self-recognition tests. They can recognize their own odor, and recall memories of specific events, Earth.com reports.

The American idea of democracy — baker

Seen this by me, as a foreigner, I also interpret it as a real open minded and free thinker country. It is not only about power due to votes. It is also about criticism and debating.
You all can criticize Joe Biden if you want due to their administration or whatever.
Can I criticize the king of Spain without public punishment? Oops... :zip:

Come to think of it, I haven't heard of humans being capable of picking out their own clothes from a jumbled pile of clothes that includes the apparel of others using just smell. :chin: Assuming of course that each one of us has a unique scent. — TheMadFool

True! This I guess this is due to our smell is not developed as much as animal’s. The smell of a dog is very important and sensitive. It helps them to make right choices when they are exploring. Yet this is the main reason why FBI or DEA implies canines to search drugs.
But this is all about natural skills. It disappointed me a bit the fact dogs failed the mirror test... I would bet some money to they have at least some awareness but it turns out not.
As I share with Pantagruel previously: A dog will never wonder what is like to be like a human because they do not have that ability. Us, the humans, can wonder what is to be like a dog but not all of us are interested in this issue.

Well, you don't actually know what it is like "to be a dog," — Pantagruel

Yes, you are right and I am agree. Nevertheless, what I was trying to say is that we don't prove if dogs perceive the "Cogito ergo sum" theory yet.
I skeptical about if my dog "thinks as a dog and then understand her name is Ada and lives in Madrid"
But as you explained, I should not negate this argument because literally I don't what is to be "like a dog" but at the same time I guess my dog doesn't wonder "how is to be like a human"

A dog knows if it accidentally bites its own tail instead of the tail of another dog, even though it fails the self-recognition test. — Pantagruel

But that dog doesn’t have the awareness of how I can call him or her. For example, If I call my dog “Ada” she doesn’t know what actually means but just an emotional trick that I am calling her.
I guess she doesn’t realize that if she sees herself in the mirror says: “I am Ada because my owner put me this name”

Already read it and about dogs the article says: “Dogs recognize their own scent as different from others' scents, but fail the traditional, visual mirror test”
hmm... :roll:

Thus, a monkey, the whole monkey, isn't self-aware (insofar as the mirror self-recognition test is concerned) but its cells are self-aware. Paradox! — TheMadFool

True! What an interesting paradox! Probably this happens because awareness is a completely serious issue that goes far than “innate” defense habits as the awareness of the cells. It makes me think a lot this paradox... it is so impressive.

Mirror Self-Recognition Test — TheMadFool

I will read it more deeply. The aspect of animal’s awareness always interested me. I always wondered if my dogs truly have some consciousness. When I call her “Ada” (one of my dog’s name) she comes to my room, but... does she knows she is Ada the dog? Does she knows I am Javi the owner?
Well, let’s see what the link you shared with us holds!

Better to just make it free all around, and so you have far less debt, far better health outcomes, and far less expensive treatments. — Xtrix

We have "free around" hospitals but our health outcomes are not better than yours honestly...
Why all the rich Spaniards go to the USA to treat their serious sicknesses as cancer? Most of them end up in Los Ángeles or Dallas. Think about it...
Everything free is not the solution.

You're from Spain?

True, you get free healthcare -- and some people who don't work also get it. But isn't that how it should be, as a basic right? — Xtrix

Yes I am from Spain, I live in Madrid.
It is not only a basic right but a constitutional one. It is so reinforced and secured by the law. "Every citizen in Spain, doesn't matter their nationality, has the right of a public and universal wealthcare system" so, everybody here gets hospital attention without bills because it is maintained by public taxes.
Nevertheless, we also have some private hospitals that work even better.

Sometimes, public and universal wealthcare can be an oasis. It is not as good as it seems. It is true that is basic right that everyone deserves. But, at the end of the day the vaccines were developed by countries which also reinforce the private sector as UK and USA. What Spain has made about the pursuing of vaccines despite the public wealthcare system? Nothing... So the public expenditure is not good at all.

Good thread and important points to debate about, but let me clarify two important key points that you should be aware of:

Mondragón comes from Erresate in Basque. I tell you this issue because if you search deeply in internet with the word in Basque you will find more information.
About the famous corporation: Basque Country signed a very important deal with the spanish government in 2002 where they let them have their own “taxation system”. Thanks to this, they develop an own work and economic plan, completely apart from Spain.
I am not saying with this Mondragón is a fake issue. I believe a lot in Basque people, they are heavy and responsible workers. But... we have to admit they have some advantages that other regions don’t.

About the healthcare system... yes we have universal “free” healthcare that are maintained with our taxes. I don’t know what to say about this. Sometimes I feel is not worthy at all. It is true that here any hospital will leave you in the street for not having an insurance but at the same time there are many folks who are using the healthcare system everyday without working.

So there are folk who accept the correspondence theory of truth, and accept that 12/6=2 is true, and hence conclude that there are things to which 12/6=2 corresponds. That's one of the excuses offered for Platonism. — Banno

Interesting explanation. Probably I am thinking wrongly, but can we put here the Aristotle’s syllogisms? All these principle of “truth” inside mathematics and then, your example, it reminds me about the classic syllogistic method of Darapti, Felapton, Bramantip, and Fesapo.

By the way, what changes would you like to see? — Apollodorus

I want to see the following changes in Spain:

1 Educational system. Our universities are completely awful. They do not do anything interesting neither motivate the students. You cannot allow a system where you tell to the students that is “normal” to have a low income afterwards. When you are here, you feel like everything is cheated or corrupted. I want a more transparent and flexible colleges procedure. The lack and insufficient educational skills make Spain with the most young people unemployed (around 44 %. What an embarrassing rate...)
For example: I completely do not understand why despite the fact, we are the most tourist country of the world, most of the Spaniards lack of English skills. Can anyone explain this to me?

2. It is time to make peace with ourselves. There are a lot of division in the political context. When you have so, it is very difficult to reach consensus and pacts to improve the State. Most of the situations here feel like “revenge” against the political adversary. It is so useless promoting a good law and then, the opposite part in the parliament say “we will derogate it the next four years”. There is not a clearly plan to us. I do not know what the future holds in my country. I wish there is not more division. Since 1898, when we lost our last colonies, Spain has not did anything interesting at all. Only incompetents in the government.

3. I think the tax system is not well dispensed by the administration. Despite the fact Spain is a big imputation country where you have to pay a lot of taxes for everything, the income that the State receives, is not in a worthy expenditure. I do not see social changes neither impressive aspects. I have to admit with all the pain of the world, but yes, Spain is a poor country and I do understand that my State needs a lot of Taxes to have a good income because we don’t have here wealthy companies or entrepreneurs.
Due to this situation, we end up in a “black economy” (around 25 % of spanish GDP is in black money... check: https://feelingeurope.eu/Pages/Shadow_Economy_in_Europe.pdf) where the Spaniards only understand the only way it seems to survive because if I do have a low income and then the State demands on me a lot of taxes, it is understandable such big portion of black economy. I rather be “outside” the law and have cash everywhere because the taxes seem to not be worthy at all.
We, the Spaniards, do not trust the State at all and I think is sad... Imagine having an income of around 500 - 950 € and then having these prices of house and taxes:



Conclusion: I live in a State which doesn’t respect the individual in both scenarios: education and wealth. I only demand a government which will respect us doesn’t matter the ideology.
Hopefully, we are in the EU. Thanks to them, Spain doesn’t live in a third world country (we are close to)

Completely agree with your argument, but why do you think existentialism is not a school or theory?
I think it could be because there are an important number of writers or thinkers involved in this attitude. Depending in which author we are speaking about, existentialism has different perspectives. Then, probably we can classify it in some academies.

In the utmost respectful way possible I find Søren Kierkegaard, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Jean-Paul Sartre, Friedrich Nietzsche philosophy teaching in my personal opinion outdated. It was probably more applicable to that generation and culture of there time. — SteveMinjares

No. All of that was written by this philosophers and thinkers, can be applied today. It is not about culture or generation. They developed a very important theory: existentialism and the absurdity of living. Here we can debate a lot of how we can interpret this aspect. One of the elements I like is about Kierkegaard’s or Schopenhauer’s pessimism rationalist. The way I can see my life with zero motivations or fantasies, more realistic and yes, negativism. But this completely logic because there are plenty or arguments we can share about how acceptable this path of seeing our lives is so accurate.
Conclusion: Existentialism is logic and crucial. It was very important back in XIX century. Now is so developed with anti-natalism thoughts.

Afghanistan — Shawn

The world and UN gave up on this country since 1991. Probably because they do not have oil.
Taliban forces are accurate for all of those who work in the world drug dealer market. It is a country which produces a lot of weed and heroine.
Why didn’t they (UN, NATO, etc...) remove all the plantations the Taliban forces have in their territories?