Its possible none of the people want to kill the fatman and in that case I see no moral violation, except that of the fatman. A moral person would volunteer to die to save the others and if fatman doesn’t then fatman isn’t acting morally. — DingoJones

This is where we get the commission/omission moral dilemma. If the fat man omitted the act of allowing the rest blowing himself up then he acts immorally or selfish. But, if the rest want to explode him, thus the act of commission, then it is somehow immoral because they are acting mean towards the fat man.
I guess this is like spiral we cannot get away. This is why I like dilemmas like this one :sweat: because is not clear who is more correct than the other.

So the moralism depends about the fat man's permission?

The only moral option if you truly feel like its morally wrong to use the dynamite is to abstain from the decision, making the decision not to use the dynamite for yourself.

The other solutions simply pass the buck, shift the moral burden.

What you shared is very important because it is something I was waiting for. Exactly, what can happen if we pass the buck? Imagine we do so and them there are different criteria. 8 hikers would think it is good to blow up the fat man but the other 8 not. This a dilemma inside the dilemma itself but as you perfectly explained one will do it anyway because at least one of them will give up about morals and them would blow him up.
Another scenario here could be if the losing of time debating if they should or not exploding him can actually kill them because they do not take solutions in extreme context

On Distributive Justice

This one was so interesting. I never heard of this topic until today. Another new concept I learn about law philosophy. Thanks for sharing and explaining it :up:

So you would be only in his side just in extreme circumstances. Interesting :chin: It looks like sammaritan acts too.

Well greasing him is a good solution but imagine nobody has this object with themselves. It is not about being mean with the fat man I guess it is about of how supposedly the masses would act against one individual.
It is interesting how you and @ernest meyer are in the fat man's side. Most of the people choose blow him up...

Cool then! :100:

I understand your point. But what about if the fat man doesn't allow us to blow him up? His selfishness could kill us (the hikers in the example).
It interesting your example of fessing up but here we are just speaking about punishment. The fat man dilemma is about life choices and then, the group as a mass, would blow the fat man up...

Interesting point. So he will die anyway but the sacrifice and the respect of the fat man could depend in his behaviour. End like a hero or a selfish

Absolutely! What would be your answer according to moralism?

Yes, you are right somehow fat Men probably wouldn't go hiking but I said this dilemma is quite humorous because of the characters :joke: But I was looking for what the people would think in this situation.

I don't remember asking your opinion about my answers pal :up:

Well I am thinking of Patmos in Greece, — ernest meyer

I wish one day we can turn back to these days. The golden era of philosophy, ethics, science, development of individual, etc... we will never see another period like this.

I'd like to chat about Spain, if you'd like to share your reasons why you think there is such scorn for sicence there, when you've had a chance to decide what to say — ernest meyer

There are too many reasons, but I think the most important facts are the following ones:
- most of the researchers are not motivated here because the government doesn’t invest in their works. Only a 1.2 % GDP of Spain goes to science. Yes, it is pathetic. So, when these researchers are called in USA, UK, or Canada earning more money and reputation they go there so we are lack of good researchers. This context allows to think that Spain doesn’t believe in science at all...
- our educational system is a completely garbage. The laws about education are made by the government and most of the time destroy everything. The salary of our teacher is weak so they do not go motivated to class neither the students. Most of the time the cultural or education criteria are not respected so most of the people decide to give up and leave school/university so they end up having bad low paid jobs as bartenders making a society full of precarious citizens.
- we still polarised since Franco died. There are scars that are not cured yet. In a divided society you cannot expect that much in terms of development.

Thankfully, we are part of the European Union. Without them, we would be completely lost.

Inventing Twitter has become the worst thing I ever did in my life, and perhaps why I have felt such a strong social obligation to try and do something about it. — ernest meyer

Completely agree. Good point. I guess this is one of the worst inventions in our modern times. As you said, we have to do something because Twitter only knows agitate the masses causing them be so violent. Also this social media spread a lot of disinformation and fake news, this big issue here is that the people actually believe on it! I am so disappointed in my generation. It looks like there is not criteria and the new Cosmos or truth is Twitter.
But theses fatal issues are around the globe not only in USA.

I actually don't know much about Spain, and I am sorry to hear it is a problem there too. — ernest meyer

I lost all the hope in my own country and the citizens. I currently having a crisis of national identity.

Europeans don't have a problem with accepting the authority of scientists. — ernest meyer

Hmm... no. Here in Europe (I am from Spain) people give zero respect and acceptance to scientists. It is all about politics and money. We still waiting for Sputnik vaccine but the European Medicine Agency doesn’t want to. According to this context, you, in USA, are more free than us...

So I'm moving to Europe as soon as I can — ernest meyer

Depends a lot of the country. If you go to the north-European countries (we call them the eagles of Europe) or Nordic ones it is fine and acceptable because they still have civilisation. But please don’t make the stupid error of coming to Mediterranean countries just for the good weather. We are probably going to disappoint you. If you consider come to my backwards ass country you have to keep in mind that you will have less freedom than in USA. Trust I been in both countries and I know what I am talking about. Mediterranean/south Europe are not paradise.

Do you think we turn to falsehoods only because we are unprepared or scared to face the truths? — FlaccidDoor

Completely. They are always making up their reality just to confront themselves because the world outside is not for them or they do not want it. Sometimes, I defended this situation depending in someone circumstances but in the long run could be really dangerous if someone only live in a fantasy
As I already said with you previously, it is better to live the reality as it is. Doesn’t matter how painful or disastrous could be. I remember in my school back in the day, I used to build a fake fantasy imagining myself a life I completely will never get. When I started accepting this reality everything turned out perfectly.

They are all manifestations of fear. — James Riley

Not necessarily. Pessimism or nihilism can be connected to the feeling of not having hope about what the future holds but this context doesn’t make me have fear.

And that could very well be why it is you (the rational mind) that is beside yourself, mad, suffering from a grave (no pun intended) mental disease. That is not intended as an insult, any more than a rational mind might charge that breeding is insane, given the circumstances. However, maybe our circumstances are a result of the rational mind. — James Riley

I didn’t understand it as a insult. I really liked it and is a good explanation :100: :up:

And that there are only two feelings in life: Love and Fear. All other feelings are manifestations of one of those two. — James Riley

I don’t see the correlation between love and fear with feelings as uncertainty, pessimism, nihilism, etc... I guess love or fear are just emotions and depend about who is the person. You put as example your son. You had a lot of emotions about it. But they don’t come from love itself but the birth of your boy.
I don’t have kids yet neither a relationship. These two factors are supposed to be connected with love... this is why I don’t want them to exist.

Love doesn’t exist... also sacrifice whatever because of love is quite infantile.

love is a grave mental disease - Plato.

Love is a madness - Sócrates

Perhaps something like metaethics? I say metaethics because it does not seem to me to present practical actions or particular actions but rather attitudes and such. — BroAlex

Interesting. It is a very good point of view. I think fits what TTC actually means or at least the meaning.
What I pretended to do is defend that clearly TTC is so away of religion mysticism or whatever dogma because it is about (most of the verses) of self, thus, individual or individualism thinking. It is a way of put in practice some attitudes as you explained that not necessarily are connected with God...

I think calling the Tao "ultimate reality" is a reasonable interpretation. — T Clark

:up: :100:

Is Taoism a form of mysticism? — T Clark

No, completely not. As you shared with us, mysticism is another religious doctrine or way of living. Taoism is philosophy and self realisation. TTC is a tool where we can develop our knowledge and satisfaction in life without any kind of subterfuge. When Lao-Tzu wrote TTC he was explaining the Principle or the Tao. This a criteria that goes further than “God” or any type of mysticism because it doesn’t explain it like it is over us but how wisely we should take it.
I shared with you and @Amity @Possibility a lot of verses from TTC but I guess a good example of showing that is not mysticism is the following one:
Verse XI

Thirty spokes join in one hub
In its emptiness, there is the function of a vehicle
Mix clay to create a container
In its emptiness, there is the function of a container
Cut open doors and windows to create a room
In its emptiness, there is the function of a room
Therefore, that which exists is used to create benefit
That which is empty is used to create functionality

It is about emptiness, functionality, spaces, etc... all examples which are opposite of mysticism.

The pursuit or achievement of personal communion with or joining with God (or some other form of the divine or ultimate truth) — T Clark

I searched and found the same definition at RAE Misticismo. Real Academia Española

Reality is something that depends on us. Inside this complex paradigm we build our lives between truths and lies. I guess you cannot extract reality itself just to compare it with false or the absence of reality because we could end up in a strange circle of if in my world does not exist then is a lie.

In this way, a lie is just a slider that measure how close we are to the truth. — maytham naei

Interesting quote :up:

The moral law involves the "illegally irrelevant" distinction between good and evil. Just what a positivist would maintain. — Ciceronianus the White

I think these concepts are ambiguous but not irrelevant. It is like a metaphor of what is supposed to be good or bad acts. How to act like a formidable citizen.
Sometimes is difficult to encourage these situations. I guess in private law (civil) is easier because nobody can make an agreement which is against the law, moral and public order (Art. 1255 Código Civil. https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-1889-4763)

We have to spread duties through laws because sadly human behaviour tend to be immoral. Here the problem, I guess, doesn't come from laws neither courts or jurists but ambitious politicians.
This is why I guess that we need to put necessarily moralism inner laws to reinforce the development of ethical/moral issues. But, the big problem here is that most of the cases governments need to directly buy it because they are afraid of how the law can go against them.

For example: If I steal your property is clearly an immoral act, even is not needed a law to say so. But, a backwards ignorant disturbed citizen like me does so. Then, this is why law is there to reinforce moral actions and protect the good citizens at courts.
Then, laws are a good mechanism the problem is the people or politicians.

what is the mechanism by which that connection is made? — Isaac

The progressive development of natural law into judicial moralism. Thus, the purpose of searching with jurisprudence the most morality solution to the law dilemmas.

No, we can neither expect nor demand respect for the law just because it has been promulgated, regardless of its content. What matters is not respect for this or that (often accidental) decision of the majority in a parliament or of a judge. Rather, what matters is respect for the moral law, which may or may not coincide with the positive law and which involves the legally irrelevant distinction between good and evil.

Leszek Kołakowski (1927-2009), "Crime and Punishment," Is God Happy? Selected Essays [Basic Books, 2013, p.236]

Lex mala, lex nulla -- A bad law is no law.

The law has nothing to do with morality...

isn't that obvious? — Banno

No. It is not. I guess law is literally the reinforcement of morality...


Men do not make laws. They do but discover them. Laws must be justified by something more than the will of the majority. They must rest on the eternal foundation of righteousness. That state is most fortunate in its form of government which has the aptest instruments for the discovery of law. [to the Massachusetts State Senate, January 7, 1914; boldface added]

An unjust law is no law at all" ["Letter from a Birmingham Jail," 1963; Lex injusta non est lex].

is it intelligent. — Don Wade

I think we can interpret those AI are intelligent because they have a very developed algorithm. They learn a lot of us and then keep our data to act more precisely the next time you asked them something.
So with these patterns I guess we can argue they are intelligent.

can we know that we aren't believing in falsehoods? Can the liars you mention, be believing in falsehoods that they misinterpret as truths? — FlaccidDoor

They are literally believing in falsehoods but they do not want interpret it as truths because probably this will so painful for them soy they rather live and believe in falsehoods.
If we can or not that actually we believe or not in falsehoods depends on us... and our sense of reality. I guess the key here is to find an equilibrium

This is just contradictory. You cannot put in one phrase truths and lies because they are supposed to be opposite

Doesn't that imply that if a falsehood can be believed in, then the truth no longer is needed? — FlaccidDoor

Probably, but falsehood is not connected with believe in due to are contradictory. I guess that truth and beliefs can be a good opposition against lies. Nevertheless, is upon every individuals of how they want to acknowledge it. There are a lot of people who literally live as liars and only lying. I think this is even an illness and they need psychological help

I think truth is not about philosophy but judicial moralism. If I am not wrong, philosophy was always there (apart from many criteria) to ensure and follow happiness. Truth can be just another path to get it but not the only one. You are asking why truth is useless because sometimes we need to lie... I guess this is why is important because we need to reinforce the good values despite sometimes we are not good enough.
You can see this clearly in judicial system or moralism. Truth is essential to believe in. Without it this power branch of the state collapse.
The truth will make you free...

So, I'm curious if you see a connection between the two, and, if so, what is the bridge? — duckrabbit19

There is a connection but just in behaviour. We are agree here that natural law comes first and then positive law. Nevertheless, they are connected because of structuralism. Thus, necessarily all the aspects in human nature needs to be performed in the system with a development.
Natural law is there and supposedly always been but we, citizens, transformed it to conventional law just to secure the application.

As much as systems enable, free, and empower us, they disable, enslave, and weaken us. — TheMadFool

:up: :100:



The best system is the education. We have to empower, develop and emphasised this issue. The future completely depends on it. I guess it is the worthy and necessary one.

I find it’s like a written piece of music. The notes are presented in a formal structure, and each note, bar, melody and movement has a certain quality that is laid out for the musician in the text. But each musician interprets it in their own way, and is under no obligation to even follow the formal structure precisely.

Interesting interpretation. I guess this happens with the most of the art that are so complex and abstract. When a piece of work can be interpreted furthermore than the original structure tend to pass a lot of generations or centuries because it can be interpreted depending in the era and social circumstances.
Nevertheless, we also have to keep in mind the original one.

The concept of anxiety by Søne Kierkegaard.

I checked it again and I see that, sadly, the opened text for translation or subtitles is not available. So I do not know how to help

Mandarin:
Tao Te Ching - Full Edition with Cartoon 中国国学-老子Laozi 道德经-动漫版全 dào dé jīnɡ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSk8yZaZRaA — Amity

It started with the story/legend of Tu-Fu! Pretty good. I liked it. I don’t know what it says but it is so interesting and beautiful lol.

Tao Te Ching - Read by Wayne Dyer with Music & Nature Sounds (Binaural Beats) 1hr 5 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_Voet2fnc
I like it. Gentle sounds.
From Comment below the video:
You don't need to start with the beginning. You can literally play this from any point in the video and still gain something. I have a special liking for the second half which covers leadership and governance. — Amity

Thanks for sharing this links. Appreciated. :100:

Wow that’s so cool the machine thinking and acting cleverly than the human :100: