That wasn't for the trolling, that was for him suggesting by PM that I was a fascist, Nazi and psychopathic idiot for giving him a warning. (And he said he was leaving anyway.) But again, we're off-topic, so speaking of fascist, Nazi, psychopathic idiots, back to Donald Trump.

Sorry everyone (including me) had their time wasted.

OK, I've just deleted all tom's trolling posts about Gaza. I'll get on to deleting the replies soon. Back to Trump.

I'm there, and on the philosophical front I need a break from Zizek, who is a bit addictive but also tiring in his contrariness after a while. It gets predictable that he's going to unpredictably turn everything upside down/inside out so it means the opposite of what it's supposed to roughly every three paragraphs.

Done. :cool:

A sample of Agamben's "State of Exception". Seems very good. Should I go for the real thing for 15 bucks (to anyone who's read it @StreetlightX, @Maw or anyone else?)

I am curious to know why someone who wants to make America Great Again has so much opposition. — FreeEmotion

You're repeating a campaign slogan as if it bears some relation to reality. You realize that's just political marketing, right?

Normal is what you are when you haven't figured out a better option and what you aspire to when you're stuck in a worse one.

It's a fair point.

I'm on the record as saying you have a right to let in or keep out whoever you want. It's your country. And I presume you were historically soft on immigration because it benefited you economically for businesses to be able to pay low wages for unattractive jobs. It's a mess of your own making. You chose it as a country and it's your problem. But you need to find a way to solve it humanely. That's an issue of international concern. And Trump's dogwhistling to fascists isn't helping.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/14/martin-omalley/martin-omalley-net-migration-mexico-was-0-2014/

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

Did you read anything I wrote today? The solution, as even Trump has managed to work out, is to stop separating families at the border. Your overall level of immigration from Mexico is a separate issue, and is roughly net neutral anyway and therfore not a problem that I think needs a solution.

I answered your question and your response didn't make any sense. As far as I'm concerned I'm arguing about treating people with basic human dignity. The details and exact numbers and methods need to be worked out within that parameter. Obviously, my position is that you're better off sacrificing some tax dollars than your standing as a modern humane democracy. If you're now going to ask many how many dollars exactly, you're missing the point entirely. You are morally obligated to uphold basic human rights. It's up to you to figure out a way to do that. It's your responsibility as a country.

No conceivable amount of immigrants that are likely to cross your border illegally is worth losing your self-respect and dignity as a country over. Which is what has been happening.

But whatever. Send them back. Just don't treat them like they're subhuman.

Are you willing to condemn Trump's use of language or not? Because if you're not, you're not worth a millisecond more of my time.

Or put it this way @ArguingWAristotleTiff, how do you solve the problem of a president who uses the rhetoric of Nazism to demonize illegal immigrants? Because that's a much more pressing problem I would think than a few extra illegals sneaking past your border guards.

The problem is your dehumanization of immigrants not the fact that some get into your country, the fact of which you have been taking advantage of for years to get jobs done that American's don't want to do and to spur on your economy in the process. The problem is also the level of ingratitude of some of you now in considering them no more worthy of empathy than animals or vermin as your "president" describes them. The point being that we don't agree on the problem, so we are naturally going to define the solution is different ways. So, why keep asking the pointless question?

The latest rhetoric from the Trump camp is disturbing. Trump has now tweeted that immigrants are "infesting" the country and a surrogate of his several times called them "invaders" in a TV interview. The portrayal of people, many of whom are asylum seekers trying to escape crisis situations in their country, with language normally used to describe insects, vermin and wartime enemies is straight out of the fascist playbook. A line is being crossed here and anyone who supports Trump in this better be prepared to be judged on where they stood in relation to that line.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/critics-say-trumps-description-of-immigrants-recalls-nazi-propaganda/

"Social commentators pointed out that history has shown, particularly before and during the Holocaust, that “infest” — a term almost exclusively used to describe vermin — dehumanizes a population and is often a precursor to murder or genocide.
...

“‘Infest’ is language used in Nazi propaganda to describe the ‘infestation’ of Jews in Germany, who were compared to rats,” writer Rob Sheridan posted. “Here’s the President of the United States saying illegal immigrants ‘infest’ our country. Keep telling me those Nazi comparisons are unfair.”

:cheer:

Let's just wildly speculate about everything, make lots of vague generalizations, and speak in cliches, then we'll surely get to the bottom of all this.

Alright, cool. Hope you feel better later.

Why you would think any of that is beyond me. I thought this draft discussion a useful place to move off-topic posts and you seemed happy with that. I'll PM you anyhow.

@I'm no longer 'here' is not a moderator by the way and apparently misunderstood your comment as applying to him/her. There is no conspiracy. That I know of...

What? I moved this to help you. And I had nothing to do with anti social sociopath except to ban him/her for bothering you.

That was Thrasymachus's doing. :)

Tiff, I'm not talking a position in support of illegal immigration, so this is irrelevant to me. My only point in this whole debate is about the deliberate and unnecessary* cruelty against children and their parents Trump is inflicting. And then disgustingly trying not to take responsibility for.

*It's absolutely irrational to think you have to be this inhumane in order to protect your border just as it's absolutely irrational to think you have to legalize torture to protect your national security. You need to separate things out otherwise it just sounds like a bunch of spurious excuses to try to justify the unjustifiable.

It's just common sense to be as specific as possible in terms of groups in proportion to the intensity of your criticism. As in when dealing with groups as vague as Republicans or Democrats pretty much every type of person is represented, so there's not a lot you can say accurately with any force.

That's an affirmative.

:party: :party: :party: :party:

Speaking of Milan:

"The greater the ambiguity, the greater the pleasure." - Milan Kundera

@ArguingWAristotleTiff

You've given a few arguments for your position but mostly you've danced around it with distractions. That suggests to me you're not really comfortable with it. My suggestion is try to abstract out the fact that these people are immigrants and imagine them as just people. Then ask yourself what kind of extreme circumstances would be necessary to treat anyone like that and if those circumstances really apply here. That's all I'd ask of you.

I would kill a Hanover for a piece of that right now.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff
I mean I don't doubt your good intentions on this or anything, but I want to shake your perspective any way I can. I'm sure you feel the same.

I repeat. This has nothing to do with anything I've said. Why people want to immigrate to the US is irrelevant to the point I just made.



It would be more honest to tell them directly what you think about them stealing your tax dollars in my view. Take a position. Stick with it if you believe in it. I'll debate you but I'll respect the fact that that's your position if I know what it is.

What has that got to do with anything I've said?

Do you realize the amount you're complaining about is absolutely dwarfed by the amount Trump just gave away to corporations and the rich in tax breaks? And that said corporations are not re-investing but buying their own shares with it. That you have a military budget of 700 billion and growing. Anyone who is willing to sell their soul for the peanuts this policy would save them in taxes while idly standing by and watching Trump throw billions of their tax dollars away on those who have the least need of it has their priorities seriously messed up.

"Representative Pramila Jayapal, Democrat of Washington, who recently visited 174 women apprehended at the border and being held in a federal prison facility in SeaTac, said some of them reported having been told that they needed to briefly leave their children to be photographed or see a judge, only to return and find the children had been taken away.

“They were forced to leave their children in this room, and then when they came back, the children were gone, and not a single one of them was able to say goodbye,” Ms. Jayapal said in an interview on Friday. "

This is what you're supporting, Tiff.

No, it's not across the board. It's about making exceptions for those who have kids.

"There is no law that says children must be taken from their parents if they cross the border unlawfully, and previous administrations have made exceptions for those traveling with minor children when prosecuting immigrants for illegal entry."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/politics/trump-immigration-separation-border.html

You don't have to do this.

Not criminally prosecuting every case.

Tiff, this is a new policy. You go back to doing what you did before. That's the answer.