• Iran War?
    The problem isn't that another nation is stronger than Israel. The problem is that the nation expresses genocidal intentions towards Israel and was on the verge of going nucleaBitconnectCarlos

    I doubt that's the cause of the present war. It's that Iran funded Hamas. This is a continuation of the invasion of Gaza, back to it's source. At least they told the residents of Tehran to evacuate. That was the right thing to do.

    With Gaza, they failed to make a humanitarian corridor in a timely fashion. That was a terrible crime.
  • Iran War?
    Israel’s military claimed on Tuesday that it had killed Maj. Gen. Ali Shadmani, describing him as Iran’s most senior military commander, as the most intense military conflict between the two countries entered its fifth day.

    Iran did not immediately comment on Israel’s claim. Maj. Gen Shadmani. He was only appointed to the role on Friday, when Israel killed his predecessor in widespread attacks against Iran’s military on the first day of the war.

    Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, issued a statement on Friday saying that he had named General Shadmani to command the Khatam al-Anbiya Central Headquarters, the most important economic arm of Iran’s elite Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.
    — New York Times
  • Two ways to philosophise.
    Knowledge is only possible through abstraction.ChatteringMonkey

    :up: It's abstractions all the way down.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)

    A military is pretty expensive. Lots of taxes.
  • Iran War?

    Try it. Just agree with whatever the person said. It sets you free.
  • Iran War?
    The reason you speak in Tweets while pretending to be authoritative is because your father didn’t give you enough attention as a child. And because you’re generally stupid.Mikie

    That's probably true.
  • Iran War?
    I’ve heard all civilian areas Israel has bombed were militarized, or were housing terrorists.

    Oops I mean Iran. Either way, let’s all be sure to believe them.
    Mikie

    The reason you never speak without being sarcastic is that you feel vulnerable.
  • Iran War?
    I don't make rules.BitconnectCarlos

    All you need is a sense of right and wrong. Everybody on the planet knows that what Israel did to Gaza was a crime against humanity. There are just a few people who don't want to face that fact.
  • Iran War?
    Once those civilian areas are militarized, they lose that privilege and become legitimate targets.BitconnectCarlos

    Bullshit.
  • Iran War?
    Well, it is a war crime to target civilian areasBitconnectCarlos

    Dude.
  • Iran War?
    Israel’s foreign minister, Gideon Saar, told CNN on Sunday that “The goal is not a regime change. The cabinet had decided on the objectives, it was not one of the objectives. This is for the Iranian people to decide.” — NY Times

    Well, there you go.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Never doubt the neocons.NOS4A2

    Are there any left?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Watch, now they’ll want the US to join the Isreali campaign to avoid the cognitive dissonance involved in their narrative.NOS4A2

    The pundits are saying Israel doesn't have the ability to disarm Iran by itself. They want the US to join in to finish the job. Trump appears to be bored by the notion.
  • Iran War?
    Well, I don't think that Iran is economically back in the 1980's yet.ssu

    No, I meant they attacked oil and gas refineries today.
  • Iran War?
    Likely they just want to bomb it back to the 1980's. They'll surely go for the (oil) infrastructure after they have finished with the nuclear weapons program.ssu

    Israel did that today.
  • Iran War?
    @Count Timothy von Icarus

    Is Israel going for regime change?
  • Iran War?
    In a widening of its military campaign against Iran, Israel targeted Iran’s critical energy infrastructure at gas and petrochemical refineries on Saturday, according to a statement from Iran’s oil ministry.

    The statement said Israeli drones had targeted a section of the South Pars Gas Field in Bushehr Province. South Pars is one of the world’s largest gas fields and a critical part of Iran’s energy production. The Fajr Jam Gas Refining Company was also targeted, the ministry said
    — NY Times
  • Iran War?
    Yes it is a tinder box, which is why players shouldn’t play with matches.Punshhh

    Yes. The US isn't in charge of the region. It's their thing.
  • Iran War?
    I don’t have anything I can point to just now. But at the time there was a lot of discussion about it and subsequently lots of discussion about what they were up to in Iran, long before the Ukraine and Gaza wars.Punshhh

    Iran did ballistic missile testing the year after the JCPOA agreement. This is an article from NPR (read it while there's still an NPR) :smile:

    The missiles they launched in 2017 were capable of delivering nuclear weapons. Israeli intelligence found documentation of secret plans for nuclear weapons in 2003, this was later confirmed by the IAEA. In short, we know Iran is committed to the destruction of Israel., we know they have secret underground development facilities, we know they violated the JCPOA regarding missile development prior to the withdrawal by Trump. I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to say the present situation is the fault of Donald Trump. It's the fault of Iranians who will absolutely not be peaceful neighbors in the Middle East, along with Netanyahu.
  • Iran War?
    Yes, but before Trump’s first term in office the Iranians were moving very slowly towards nuclear weapons. This stepped up as soon as Trump tore up the carefully constructed deal when he came into office in 2016.Punshhh

    How do you know that?
  • Iran War?



    The International Atomic Energy Agency declared on Thursday that Iran was not complying with its nuclear nonproliferation obligations, the first time the U.N. watchdog has passed a resolution against the country in 20 years — New York Times
    . here

    This wasn't caused by Trump. The fact that Iran has been spending billions of dollars to be the Mid East's biggest pain in the ass is not Trump's fault.
  • Iran War?
    It's funny to think just 10 years ago we got a nuclear deal with Iran which Trump foolishly ripped up in his first term, and Biden foolishly didn't get back into during his term.Mr Bee

    Thinking of the US as foolishly causing the world's problems is a coping mechanism. Without it, you'd have to face the fact that it's all just meaningless violence.
  • Iran War?
    These kinds of things have a way of spiraling out of control. 20% of the world's oil goes through the Strait of Hormuz. Suppose Iran chooses to shut that down to inflict economic pain on Israel and her backers. Well, now the U.S. president is looking at a catastrophic rise in oil prices, which will lead to more inflation and higher interest rates, which is usually the death knell for an administration. The president is under tremendous pressure to reopen the Strait, so he attacks Iran's navy, but unlike 1988, Iran doesn't back down. So now what?RogueAI

    Yes. Although smashing someone's nuclear capability and military leadership is the kind of thing you would do before you completely level the capital, plow over the rubble, and sow salt. We'll see.

    The US has its own oil reserves now, thanks to fracking. We produce 60% of our oil usage. We could increase that. I think the door is closing on any way out of an inflationary recession though. I don't think the US will act unless somebody blows up an American ship.
  • Iran War?
    I think this incident might be the watershed where we all get used to shit going down and the US is not involved at all, except to protect its interests. The US isn't going to faceplant in the Mid-East trying to fight the tide of chaos. The US isn't going to go another trillion dollars into debt. We can all just breakout the popcorn and watch like everybody else in the world. We're just like everybody else. This is nice.
  • Iran War?
    Sure I'm up for a laughMr Bee

    I don't think this problem is coming from Washington. It's Netanyahu.
  • Iran War?
    My guess is it'll probably be a war, but I'm open to hearing how this is all somehow a 4D chess negotiating tactic by Trump from his supporters.Mr Bee

    You're really open to that? :lol:
  • Iran War?

    Ha! I looked over and saw the Asian markets plummeting, crude oil shooting up. Somebody said "war."
  • Some questions about Naming and Necessity
    What I'm saying is that we only have something we call "reference", the thing that we do with referring expressions like names and descriptions, so that we can talk about things with other people. More than that, our individual cognitive capacities are shaped by our interactions with other people, so the sorts of things we want to talk about are already the objects or potential objects of shared cognition.Srap Tasmaner

    That's fairly persuasive as a theory of the origin of speech, but I don't think it necessarily indicates that we can't speak meaningfully while alone. The part of the motor cortex that orchestrates speech is separated from the portion that handles comprehension. It's not clear that the unity of consciousness we enjoy today is the way humans have always been. It may be that talking to ourselves has been around as long as talking to each other has.

    It's important to remember that skills don't necessarily arise for a need, but having arisen, they find a need (can't remember who said that, Democritus?) It may be that speech just randomly emerged as a continuous stream accompanying experience. In time, it became valuable for group dynamics. We really don't know.

    Why does any of this matter? Because words are a "just enough" technology that evolved for cooperative use; a word, even a name, is not something that carries its full meaning like a payload. Words are more like hints and nudges and suggestions. They are incomplete by nature.

    And so it is with using them to refer. We should expect that to be a partial, incomplete business.
    Srap Tasmaner

    Absolutely.

    I doubt that story, but about all I have in the way of argument is that our cognitive habits and capacities are shaped by just this sort of good enough exchange. My suspicion is that we largely think this way as well. And this makes a little more sense if you think of your cognition as overwhelmingly shared, not as the work of an isolated mind that occasionally ventures out to express itself.Srap Tasmaner

    Sure. I think there's convincing evidence that speech capability is innate, but interaction is necessary for development.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    You the entire planet Earth and all living things. It’s basically what you said.NOS4A2

    :grin: Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought that's how you felt.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Where do you come up with this stuff?NOS4A2

    I thought that's basically what you said. You hate the USA.
  • Some questions about Naming and Necessity

    I don't think anyone has made the claim that reference is ever done using a private language. The claim you made is that someone has to comprehend the speaker's reference in order to for there to be any reference. As @J pointed out, that's an odd usage of the term "reference." I don't think it's what Kripke is talking about.
  • How do you determine if your audience understood you?
    Hierarchical position is a factor along side content.BC

    Very true. This shows up dramatically in Korean and Japanese TV shows because expressing social rank and respect for elders is built into the language. Seniors are at ease and seem a little self absorbed. Juniors are humble and attentive, or they get bitched at for not listening.
  • How do you determine if your audience understood you?
    They’re your friends, why don’t you ask them.T Clark

    These are my friends:

    here
  • Some questions about Naming and Necessity
    I was noting that such inferences cannot result in certainty.

    But it's important to note that this doesn't matter.

    We don't need to fix the referent of "gavagai" with absolute certainty in order to get the stew, or go hunting rabbits.

    So much of the conversation about fixing referents is unnecessary
    Banno

    That was kind of my point to Srap. As @Pierre-Normand was saying, the speaker's intentions are authoritative, but fallible.
  • Some questions about Naming and Necessity
    By answering both and seeing to which Srap Tasmaner responds? Answering one, and seeing if the response fits that answer?

    Generally, by moving the conversation on, and seeing what the result is, and then making an inference about Srap's intent.
    Banno

    I thought you objected to making inferences about intent?
  • Some questions about Naming and Necessity
    The very content of this intent is something that ought to be negotiated within a broader embodied life/social context, including with oneself, and, because of that, it isn't a private act in Wittgenstein's sense. It can, and often must, be brought out in the public sphere. That doesn't make the speaker's intentions unauthoritative. But it makes them fallible. The stipulated "rules" for using a term, and hence securing its reference, aim at effective triangulation, as Srap suggested.Pierre-Normand

    I agree that speech is pervasively conditioned by the wider context of human life, but I don't see how we could maintain, as Srap and Banno have been doing, that a speaker has to have the buy-in of the audience in order to "successfully" refer. The triangulation they're talking about, as far as I understand them, is not about the social context, it's about the comprehension of the audience. I think you can triangulate with what you've learned about language use. Why do you need the audience's acceptance?

    a singular sense rather than descriptive. When there is an unintended mismatch between the reference of this singular sense and the descriptive sense that the speaker expresses, then the presupposition of identity is mistaken. What it is that the speaker truly intended to have priority (i.e. the demonstrative singular sense or the descriptive one) for the purpose of fixing the true referent of their speech act (or of the thought that this speech act is meant to express) can be a matter of negotiation or further inquiry.Pierre-Normand

    So you're saying the champaign issue is an example of a failed reference? Is that how you take Kripke's meaning?

    BTW, I know you're busy, but if you have a second and would want to tell me what you think about Kripke's Wittgenstein on Rules and Private Language, I would so appreciate it.
  • How do you determine if your audience understood you?

    I don't know how a behaviorist handles deceit. I'm guessing it would have to be written off as illusion?
  • How do you determine if your audience understood you?
    One avenue for answering this is the behaviorist approach. Here, we'll put on our eliminative materialist hats, and look at the whole scene objectively. People are making sounds and gestures in a way they've learned. Social dominance may come into play in tonality and facial expressions. There is no meeting of minds because there aren't really any minds involved. I think the answer that arises from this line of thought is that no one ever "understands" what you're saying. You aren't actually saying anything, per se.

    I would look for already-known signs that someone is expressing their understanding to me.AmadeusD

    I agree with this. It comes down to the assumptions you have about the audience. The better you know them, the more confidence you'll have in your ability to read them.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    The question is “why”? Why do Americans have to suffer yet again the destruction of their cities, the people in their roadways, the curfews, the violence and looting, the waving of foreign flags on American streets?NOS4A2

    I thought you wanted social breakdown in the US. Didn't you?