• References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    That reminds me of the way the parts of a single sentence gain meaning relative to one another, even though it's expressed sequentially. In the middle of expressing a sentence, you may have a sense of freedom, the ability to say anything, but the beginning of the sentence limits the ways it can end. Toward the end, the possibilities narrow down to just one. At the end, there is no freedom, and the constraints are coming from the imperative to say something meaningful, and meaning is fundamentally holistic.

    I wonder if that idea about sentences could be generalized to cover all of thought.
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    I cannot seem to fathom how we can appreciate time without partially transcending it.I like sushi

    I understand what you're saying. My theory is that the conception of time is related to anticipation. Agriculture creates anticipation throughout the year: farmers plant around the spring equinox, they wait all summer to see how the crop will do, they harvest around the fall equinox, and then wait all winter for the next spring.

    All of that requires being relatively stationary. You can't be nomadic and farm, and being stationary is how people were first able to mark out the solar calendar.

    As you say, if you're looking at the whole calendar, your vantage point seems to be outside of the passage of time, in some eternal spot.
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    Cool. I see he quotes Schopenhauer, so I approve.
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    Yes. Do you know Galen Strawson's book, Consciousness and Its Place in Nature? A very good argument for the plausibility of panpsychism.J

    I haven't. Does he talk about the problem of other minds?
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    And if you've been following my discussion with Wayfarer, you see that not everyone agrees on exactly how to characterize the hard problem. I read Chalmers as saying it's a scientific problem, hard but potentially solvable through scientific inquiry. Whereas I think Wayfarer sees Chalmers as being closer to the New Mysterian position of McGinn and others.J

    Wayfarer is mistaken. Chalmers is non-mysterian. He thinks that in order to create a scientific theory of consciousness, we need to posit first-person data as an explicandum, in much the same way gravity was posited by Newton without any accompanying theory. A mysterian would say any such project is hopeless from the start.

    Chalmers has talked about pan-psychism as exemplifying the kind of theory we might start with: just accepting that consciousness is a property of our little universe, and go from there.

    Our worldview tends to say that intrinsic perspective (or subjective experience), is located in isolated pockets, inside skulls? Mine is separated from yours by a region of air. Could you see yourself questioning that assumption?
  • Edward Scissorhands? Are they scissors really?
    Does that make his thumbs scissorsflannel jesus

    :lol: Edward ScissorThumbs.
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    I have a friend who's coined the term "The Impossible Problem" to describe this wrinkle in the Hard Problem. (And yes, Wayfarer, this is the very same question we're examining from different angles in the other thread.) My friend means the problem of actually experiencing another person's consciousness. Why does this seem impossible? It creates a dilemma: If I experience your consciousness as myself doing so, that is clearly not what it's like for you -- there's no observer or alien presence for you. But if I don't do this, and instead simply have your experience (how? but that's a different question), then I haven't experienced it -- my "I" is not present to do any experiencing. Either way, it doesn't seem possible that I can ever know what it is to be you (leaving aside the somewhat ambiguous "what it's like".)J

    We're talking about the most simple, center of everything sort of experience, like the ITT theory graphic:
    check it out.

    Let's call it the intrinsic perspective (for lack of another name?). Schopenhauer speculated that there is only one of these, and it's universal, each person thinks they own it. So Schopenhauer would agree with your friend, not because I don't have access to that most basic level of consciousness, but because if I could "download" your experiences, I might balk at the parts I'm not prepared to deal with. You don't balk because you're use to it. So right there, I'm not experiencing you as you. So here, the definition of self is about a certain history rather than raw intrinsic perspective, right?

    I have more questions about how you think this relates to the hard problem.
  • Edward Scissorhands? Are they scissors really?
    do you call two knives "scissors" just because you momentarily rub them against each other?flannel jesus

    I could use "scissor" as a verb for rubbing blades against each other:

    The chef accidentally scissored his thumb, turning the salad pink.

    So if you scissor something, it would involve... scissors?
  • Edward Scissorhands? Are they scissors really?

    Virtual fulcrum? Couldn't he slide the blades against each other such that a point in space is a fulcrum, but it's not permanent?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    stock market is up 6%.RogueAI

    That's coming from expectation of the Fed dropping interest rates in September. But the CPI is up, so we may not get it.

    I think the other factor is that people have been expecting a recession since before Trump was elected, and it's never come, so it's a boy cried wolf situation.

    But yea, the notion that everything has gone to shit is just clearly in conflict with reality.
  • Knowing what it's like to be conscious
    As mad as it may sound the only 'reasonable' conclusion I can come to is something about consciousness is atemporal.I like sushi

    Why do you say that?
  • The End of Woke


    Two sad people having a really sad discussion about a really sad topic. This is why woke died. :sad:
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    globalization has already happened in whatever ways. Goods-versus-bads is apparently a hot topic in some circles. Blanket globophobia is a wee immature, though.jorndoe

    Globalization isn't going to survive climate change, and that's actually underway now. Get with the times.

    Distrust in Trump's US doesn't mean mutual distrust throughout (if that's what you were seeing); in fact, it can lead to increased cooperation/collaboration/bonding elsewhere.jorndoe

    That's great.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    “The United States’ policy approach could support continued investment in the U.S. manufacturing sector,” says Jim Kilpatrick, former global Supply Chain & Network Operations leader for Deloitte Consulting LLP and a partner with Deloitte Canada. “It could also drive a notable shift in supply chain strategy by prioritizing reshoring while potentially altering recent nearshoring and global sourcing trends.”

    U.S. manufacturers import a variety of products, parts, and raw materials from around the world, and supplemental tariffs levied on these items could affect supply chain strategies as organizations manage costs and potential supply chain shifts.

    “Economically viable opportunities for reshoring production to the U.S. are likely to be higher-value, complex products with strict quality standards, produced with technologically advanced, higher-capital-intensity processes, and a workforce with higher-level skills,” says Kate Hardin, a managing director with Deloitte Services LP.
    WSJ
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)

    That's your boy retaliating because someone said he was ignorant.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)

    The idea that there ought to be "trust" between countries is a leftover from the Cold War. Those days are gone.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    The real problem in the US is in income distribution, not globalizationssu

    They're both problematic. At least we don't have to worry about being invaded by Russia.
  • Why not AI?
    If those posts are of better quality than us humans here (and they probably would be), isn't human philosophical discussion a bit of mockery?RogueAI

    But aren't AI generated posts constructed out of recorded human expressions? It would be a complex kind of plagiarism.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Are you actually in the shower curtain business?

    No. Your whole issue is a thought experiment. Yet if you would link to an article on how the shower curtain business is actually making great advances again in Michigan (or where ever), then there would be more credibility to your argument.
    ssu

    You seem a little hostile about this. What I told you is just a fact. American labor has been competing with foreign labor for decades, and that was by design. It was to cripple American labor unions. It worked. I did provide you with an interview in which the leader of the United Auto Workers labor union stated that the tariffs were a good idea, and he voted for Harris, not Trump. He was just stating the obvious.

    Sticking to your party line in a country where the both parties are at fault of this mess, that I don't get.ssu

    My party line? By nature I lean toward progressive.

    It doesn't once occur to you that autocracies start with giving the people what they want and need. You've rendered yourself blind.
    — frank
    Rooting now for autocracies, Frank?

    On a philosophy forum? Or being ironic?
    ssu

    No, I'm just aware that autocratic-minded individuals flocked to Trump when he was running his second campaign. They came ready to transform the US government and the military into loyalist entities, and they accomplished that. I'm aware that the Vice President favors autocracy and he will most likely be the next president. I'm aware that the last realistic opposition to Trump is the SCOTUS, and he has stated that he doesn't think their rulings matter.

    None of this means the US is bound to lurch toward autocracy right now. But it's very likely. A factor that makes it more likely is if Trump gives American voters what they want in the form of temporary tax breaks.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Whatever you say.Mr Bee

    Darn tootin'

    I really don't think it had to do with tariffs. It's too soon. Sarcasm is for people who are having a shitty life.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    It's hard for me to folllow what his actual plans are if there even are any, but if I recall wasn't this entire thing just to bring back manufacturing to the US? That isn't happening thus far: US manufacturing extends slump; factory employment lowest in 5 yearsMr Bee

    A friend of mine lives in an area that just landed a fairly large commercial jet manufacturer. Supposedly they'll be making about 20 jets per month, which kind of blew my mind. I doubt that has anything to do with the tariffs, though.
  • Why not AI?
    Obviously, you've never seen Battlestar Gallactica.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)

    A year ago, if I wanted to start a shower curtain business, my only option would be to make high end ones for a niche market. I couldn't compete with imports to make regular ones.

    Now, with tariffs, I can. I can hire workers, reinvest profits to expand into faucets, and eventually bathtubs. I hire more people, reinvest, and the next thing you know, there are fewer fentanyl addicts in my community because there are good jobs for them.

    You don't want to see this because you're totally bound to anti-Trump. It doesn't once occur to you that autocracies start with giving the people what they want and need. You've rendered yourself blind.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Now just ask yourself, is truly a huge drop in imports something that makes Americans better off?ssu

    It will help a lot of Americans, yes.
  • The Christian narrative
    Given your affinity for neoplatonism, I'm quite surprised it doesn't at least make some sort of sense. In its broadest sense, the general idea is quite flexible.Count Timothy von Icarus

    You were talking about definitions as if the definition is the words used, and the essence is what the definition refers to. That's garbled. A definition is the content of uttered sentences. The definition is what the words in the definition mean, which is, what they refer to.

    This isn't a logical point. It's just how we use the word "definition."
  • The Christian narrative
    Yes, exactly. :up: So if we say an essence is a definition, it'd be a bit like saying New York City is the name "New York City," or that smoke, as a sign of fire, is fire.Count Timothy von Icarus

    What amazes me is that this makes sense to you.
  • The Christian narrative
    The way St. Thomas puts it in De Ente et Essentia, which is fairly standard, is that essences are the metaphysical reality, and definitions are the signification of that reality (the signification of the quiddity). .Count Timothy von Icarus

    All that says is that an essence is what a definition signifies.
  • Faith
    How are you clueless?Paula Tozer

    Pervasively. All the cool kids are.
  • The Christian narrative
    So essences is just giving definitions.Apustimelogist

    Definite description maybe
  • The Christian narrative


    So if I throw a pair of dice, snake-eyes is in potential. Let's say snake-eyes shows up in actuality when the dice land. Where is an example of essence in this?
  • The Christian narrative
    The idea of essence/form is very broad, it's just the idea of a prior actuality that stands in relation to interaction.Count Timothy von Icarus

    A what?
  • The Christian narrative

    Are you saying the essence of a my dog, Bee, is her DNA?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    The ‘important stuff’ I see Trump doing is undermining democratic norms, attacking science, public education, public health and public broadcasting.Wayfarer

    By contrast, what I see is that he's filled the military with loyalists, and is now flexing his ability to use the military domestically. He recently floated the idea of arresting the governor of California.

    And you're worried about PBS. :meh:
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    We will have to wait and see.Banno
    The US economy usually grows at around 1.3% in the first half of the year. It makes up for that in the last half. But yes, we're waiting for the full effect of the tariffs. So far, it's not as expected. It's actually a lot closer to what Trump predicted.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    The tariffs are curious because they are somewhat novel and unpredictable. Estimates put the reduction of US GDP at about 6%, and it is this slow down of the US economy that will have the greater effect on Australia, rather than a 10% tariff on our exports to the US. If everyone else ends up paying 10% or more, then that makes little difference to our competitiveness in the US market.Banno

    The US economy isn't slowing down, though. Not yet anyway. Maybe it hasn't affected Australia, but Europe is struggling now as European companies are gravitating toward the US looking for investors. European leaders are anxious about this because it increases the practical power of the US over Europe just when Europeans would like to loosen ties. That article is also in the WSJ.

    remember that it is the US customer, not Australia, who pays the 10%.Banno

    So far, the way it's been working is that US importers are steering away from countries with high tariffs, and turning toward duty free and domestic goods. So no, so far Americans are not booting the bill.

    Yesterday. I read the Kyiv Post maybe once or twice a week.Banno

    What's their assessment of what will take place in Russia if the war ends?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)

    Do they matter to you? When's the last time you looked for an analysis of the Russia/Ukraine conflict? Three years ago?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    In other words, the tariffs did exactly what Trump said they would do.

    The highest tariffs in almost a century haven’t caused inflation to surge. The phenomenon has puzzled economists, some of whom suspect that companies have so far simply been reluctant to pass along the extra costs to their customers.

    But another argument for the limited impact is gaining traction: that tariffs being paid by importers are lower than advertised.

    In a new study, Barclays economists went through census data to see what tariffs importers actually paid in May. They found that the weighted-average tariff rate—the average of all tariffs, adjusted for import volume from each country—that month was around 9%. That number is well below the 12% rate that they had previously estimated based on White House announcements, and far less than what some others have estimated.

    The reason is that more than half of U.S. imports were duty-free, the Barclays study says, and because many U.S. companies and consumers bought less from countries with higher levies, particularly China.

    “The real surprise in the U.S. economy’s resilience lies not in its reaction to tariffs but that the rise in the effective tariff rate has been more modest than commonly thought,” the Barclays report says.
    WSJ

    JPMorgan economists argue that actual tariff rates in June were lower than headline averages suggest because importers switched to countries with lower tariffs or to domestic producers.

    These lower effective tariff rates could help explain why consumer prices haven’t risen as rapidly as some analysts feared. The impact of tariffs has been a charged topic. Trump this week asserted that tariffs haven’t caused inflation and called on Goldman Sachs to replace an economist who had predicted price increases.

    The new tariffs raised $58.5 billion in revenue between January and June, according to the Penn Wharton Budget Model. And inflation has crept up in recent months, with prices of imported goods such as furniture ticking higher. The latest inflation readings remain well above the Federal Reserve’s benchmark of 2% year over year. In July, wholesale prices rose at the sharpest monthly rate in three years and well above economists’ forecasts.

    But the overall inflation picture in the first six months of the year hasn’t been as ugly as many feared it would be in the wake of President Trump’s tariff hikes.
    WSJ