If plants are conscious does veganism lose some of it's moralistic appeal? — RogueAI

Yes.

I believe that if one is to believe that there is an objective morality, the one thing we can consider is that existence vs non-existence is good. — Philosophim

How can you know whether morality is objective or subjective? We know things from subjective sensory perceptions, e.g. I see these words on my computer screen.

Our disagreements over good and bad tend to be matters of priority - Is it better to let the robber take your stuff or kill them? We agree that best is to not have your stuff taken and not kill anyone, but... — unenlightened

How would we work out whose priority matters? Vegans prioritise saving and improving the lives of nonhuman sentient organisms, but non-vegans don't. Are vegans in the right and the non-vegans in the wrong?

You’re understanding my point back to front. Across ethical systems, a common theme is the prevention of harm. This does not imply that every possible instance of harm is recognized or codified into the moral principles of a culture. Ethical systems are selective, shaped by historical, social, and practical considerations. Some harms may go unnoticed or be considered acceptable in certain contexts, while others are amplified as morally significant. — Tom Storm

You are right in that ethical systems are selective. That's why non-vegans murder sentient organisms and think they are doing the right thing, even though there are vegan options that avoid the deliberate exploitation and murder of sentient organisms.

So the foundation of most moral systems seems to be preventing harm and promoting wellbeing — Tom Storm

Veganism prevents harm and promotes the well-being of trillions of sentient organisms. Yet, more than 99% of the humans currently alive (8.24 billion) are not yet vegan. Non-vegans kill 80 billion land organisms and 1 to 3 trillion aquatic organisms per year. Why isn't veganism legally mandatory in all countries?

Why are you here? Are you looking for people who believe the world was created a few thousand years ago? You will probably not find anyone like that here. — I like sushi

I am here to read posts by others and make my own posts about various topics that I find interesting. I am not looking for anyone.

Metaphors exist. — I like sushi

Yes, metaphors exist. However, the Bible is not written as a metaphor. It is claimed to be divinely authored truth - which it clearly is not.

Or possibly, Bible literalism is bonkers. I don't much care either way. — unenlightened

I agree that the Bible is not literally true, it is a work of fiction.

More of your rabid anti-religious bigotry. In this case especially lame. — T Clark

I am not a bigot. I have compassion for everyone, unlike the Biblical God.

Here are some examples of the Biblical God's lack of compassion:

Matthew 5:22

"Anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Matthew 5:29–30

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Matthew 13:40–42

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age... they will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 18:8–9

"It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."

Matthew 25:41, 46

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Mark 9:43–48

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’"

Luke 12:5

"Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell."

Luke 16:19–31 (Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus)

The rich man is in torment in Hades, longing for relief from the flames.

Jude 1:7

"Sodom and Gomorrah... serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:10–11

"They will be tormented with burning sulfur... And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night..."

Revelation 20:10, 14–15

"The devil... was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur...
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever...
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Deuteronomy 7:1–2

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations... you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."
— Commands total destruction of seven nations

Deuteronomy 20:16–17

"However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you."
— Commands killing of everything that breathes


Numbers 31:17–18

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
— Massacre of Midianites; only virgin girls spared as sexual slaves

1 Samuel 15:2–3

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites... Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
— Explicit command to kill children and infants

Joshua 6:21

"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it — men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
— Jericho: all inhabitants slaughtered

Joshua 10:40

"So Joshua subdued the whole region... He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."
— Genocidal conquest of the entire southern region

Joshua 11:11–12

"Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed, and he burned Hazor itself."
— Northern campaign led by Joshua

Deuteronomy 2:33–35

"The LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army... We completely destroyed them."
— Refers to Sihon the Amorite king and his people

Judges 20:48

"The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire."
— Near total destruction of the tribe of Benjamin

Leviticus 25:44–46 (NIV)

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life.”
— Endorses chattel slavery of foreigners as permanent property.

Exodus 21:2–6

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free... But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master...’ then his master... shall pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.”
— Allows indefinite enslavement of Hebrews who choose to stay.

Exodus 21:20–21

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies... But if the slave recovers after a day or two, the owner is not to be punished, since the slave is their property.”
— Permits beating slaves nearly to death without punishment.

Deuteronomy 20:10–11, 14

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace... If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.”
— Allows the enslavement of conquered peoples.

Ephesians 6:5 (New Testament)

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”
— Reinforces obedience to masters without calling for abolition.

SEXUAL SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE

Numbers 31:17–18

“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
— After war with the Midianites, virgin girls are taken for male use; widely interpreted as sexual slavery.

Deuteronomy 21:10–14

“When you go to war... and you see a beautiful woman among the captives and become enamoured with her, you may take her as your wife... If you are not pleased with her, let her go... you must not sell or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”
— Allows war captors to forcefully take women as wives.

Ephesians 6:5–8 – Slaves are told to obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart..."

Colossians 3:22–25 – Similar to Ephesians, reinforcing obedience of slaves.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..."

1 Timothy 6:1–2 – Slaves should regard their masters as worthy of full respect.

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect..."

Titus 2:9–10 – Slaves are told to be subject to their masters in everything, to be trustworthy and not talk back.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything..."

1 Peter 2:18–21 – Slaves should submit to even harsh masters and endure suffering as a good thing in God's eyes.

"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

Philemon 1:10–16 – Paul sends the escaped slave Onesimus back to his master Philemon, though urges Philemon to receive him kindly as a brother.

"...no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."

Luke 12:47–48 – In a parable, Jesus describes a master beating his slaves, with no condemnation of the master.

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready... will be beaten with many blows."

Here are some verses where Jesus speaks or acts malevolently:

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34–36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...’”
This contradicts the image of Jesus as a peacemaker and suggests division and familial conflict.

"Bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Luke 19:27 (from the Parable of the Ten Minas)

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
While technically part of a parable, the speaker in the story represents Jesus himself. The violent imagery is unsettling.

Drowns 2,000 pigs after casting out demons
Mark 5:11–13

“He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd... rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”
Jesus allows a legion of demons to destroy innocent animals — property of the local people.

"Let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 8:21–22

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
This callous-sounding response comes after a man asks permission to bury his father first.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother..."
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple.”
A demand for total allegiance to Jesus over all human relationships — using the word hate.

"It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs."
Matthew 15:22–26

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Jesus compares a Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman to a dog when she asks for healing for her daughter.

Curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Mark 11:12–14, 20–21

“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
Jesus kills a fig tree for having no fruit — despite it not being the season for figs.

"Whoever is not with me is against me..."
Matthew 12:30

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
This black-and-white view implies no neutrality or middle ground — only allegiance or opposition.

God lied to Adam and Eve

Genesis 2:16,17
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

What was said: In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would result in death on that day.

What happened: Adam and Eve eat the fruit, but they do not die that day. Instead, they are:

Banished from Eden.

Cursed with suffering (painful childbirth, hard labor, mortality).

Told they would return to dust — implying eventual death, not immediate.

Wider Fallout: Collective Punishment
Not only were Adam and Eve punished, but all of humanity and even non-human animals suffer and die.

Eve’s punishment was extended to all women, with pain in childbirth and submission to men (Genesis 3:16).

Adam’s punishment led to a cursed ground, requiring hard labor to survive (Genesis 3:17–19).

This presents God as:

Inflicting intergenerational punishment.

Imposing suffering on billions of humans (including trillions of sentient organisms) for a single act of disobedience by only two humans.

Commanding reproduction (Genesis 1:28, Genesis 3:16) even though childbirth is cursed — a painful contradiction.

Deception: God said one thing (immediate death) but did something else.

Cruelty: Instead of just death, the punishment was lifelong and multigenerational suffering.

Injustice: All descendants and other species suffer for the mistake of two.

From an ethical perspective, punishing innocents for the actions of others — especially when omniscient and omnipotent — is morally evil.

On 24 December 2024, a Christian man smeared our window with blood and tried to knock our front door down. He gave us death threats. We phoned the police, and the police arrested him. The police wanted to know if we wanted to press charges. We said that we didn't want to press charges and asked the police to get the man help for his alcoholism. The police did that, and the man is in a program for alcoholism. If we had pressed charges, the man would have gone to jail because we recorded his death threats.

Six of my relatives and my best friend were killed in separate incidents. I didn't hunt down the perpetrators and punish them. Could any of the perpetrators have refrained from killing? Not unless the determinants (i.e. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences) of their choices were changed.

The tit for tat approach makes the world worse. Of course, we need to protect victims from perpetrators - we should do this by placing perpetrators in quarantine and helping them change.

In the U.K. the university grading is different from the school grading. For example, at age 18, we do A Levels here, which are graded like this:

A*: 90% and above ​
A: 80-89%​
B: 70-79%​
C: 60-69%​
D: 50-59%​
E: 40-49%​

Is the school grading and university grading different in the USA?

In the United Kingdom, if you get 70% or above, you get a 1st class Bachelor's Degree and a Distinction level Master's Degree.

Cs get degrees I always say. — Hanover

What is "Cs"?

The Nietzchian response is to eliminate Christianity not because it's being used disparately to subjugate, but because it's subjugating the powerful by imposing the morality of the weak upon the strong. So, to the extent the suggestion is that the problem is that religion is being used to control the weak, there is an argument that it is being used to control the strong. — Hanover

Shouldn't there be a universal morality, regardless of whether one is weak or strong? Surely, we need an egalitarian morality and an egalitarian legal system for everyone?

The Nietzchian response is a deeply elitist framework. It treats strength as inherently good and weakness as inherently bad.

It ignores the value of moral equality, mutual care, and justice in favour of glorifying power and dominance.

It downplays the historic role of Christianity (and other religions) in oppressing the weak as much as, or more than, constraining the strong.

See, here's the kicker. To be able to definitively say, without lying "everything is [X, Y, Z]" requires a perfect understanding. At least, one that is considerably refined. How can you know what is perfect and imperfect, without being perfect? You can't. — Outlander

I disagree. I scored 73% in my course. I know this is not a perfect score, which is 100%. I don't need to be perfect to know what is perfect and what is imperfect.

Joshua 10:12 - 14, the Bible (New International Version):

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

Why isn't the standing still of the sun and the moon not recorded by other cultures that had invented writing?

The event described in Joshua 10:12–14, where the sun and moon are said to have stood still to allow the Israelites more time to defeat their enemies, would - if taken literally - constitute a global astronomical phenomenon. If the Earth’s rotation truly stopped or slowed (which is what "the sun stood still" would physically mean), it would have had catastrophic global consequences, including massive earthquakes, tsunamis, and changes in atmospheric motion due to sudden deceleration.

Such an event could not have gone unnoticed by other civilisations and would have been recorded by other literate cultures that kept astronomical or historical records.

At the time (around 13th to 15th century BCE, depending on the dating of the conquest narratives), several advanced civilisations with writing and astronomical records existed, including:

Egyptians
Babylonians
Chinese (Shang Dynasty)
Minoans/Mycenaeans
Sumerians
Indus Valley remnants

Yet none of these cultures, despite their meticulous sky observations, record a day when the sun and moon stood still or behaved abnormally. I conclude that this is because the Bible is lying about the Biblical God making the sun and the moon stand still.

THE BIBLICAL GOD COMMANDING GENOCIDES
The Bible, particularly the Old Testament, contains several verses in which God is described as commanding the complete destruction of entire peoples - actions that meet the definition of genocide: the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Below is a list of such verses, mostly from the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Numbers, and 1 Samuel.

1. Deuteronomy 7:1–2

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations... you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."
— Commands total destruction of seven nations

2. Deuteronomy 20:16–17

"However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you."
— Commands killing of everything that breathes


3. Numbers 31:17–18

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
— Massacre of Midianites; only virgin girls spared as sexual slaves

4. 1 Samuel 15:2–3

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites... Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
— Explicit command to kill children and infants

5. Joshua 6:21

"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it — men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
— Jericho: all inhabitants slaughtered

6. Joshua 10:40

"So Joshua subdued the whole region... He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."
— Genocidal conquest of the entire southern region

7. Joshua 11:11–12

"Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed, and he burned Hazor itself."
— Northern campaign led by Joshua

8. Deuteronomy 2:33–35

"The LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army... We completely destroyed them."
— Refers to Sihon the Amorite king and his people

9. Judges 20:48

"The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire."
— Near total destruction of the tribe of Benjamin

The Bible contains multiple verses that regulate, endorse, or command various forms of slavery, including chattel slavery and sex slavery. These appear primarily in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)

GENERAL SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE

Leviticus 25:44–46 (NIV)

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life.”
— Endorses chattel slavery of foreigners as permanent property.

Exodus 21:2–6

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free... But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master...’ then his master... shall pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.”
— Allows indefinite enslavement of Hebrews who choose to stay.

Exodus 21:20–21

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies... But if the slave recovers after a day or two, the owner is not to be punished, since the slave is their property.”
— Permits beating slaves nearly to death without punishment.

Deuteronomy 20:10–11, 14

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace... If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.”
— Allows the enslavement of conquered peoples.

Ephesians 6:5 (New Testament)

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”
— Reinforces obedience to masters without calling for abolition.

SEXUAL SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE

Numbers 31:17–18

“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
— After war with the Midianites, virgin girls are taken for male use; widely interpreted as sexual slavery.

Deuteronomy 21:10–14

“When you go to war... and you see a beautiful woman among the captives and become enamoured with her, you may take her as your wife... If you are not pleased with her, let her go... you must not sell or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”
— Allows war captors to forcefully take women as wives.

New Testament verses supporting slavery

Ephesians 6:5–8 – Slaves are told to obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart..."

Colossians 3:22–25 – Similar to Ephesians, reinforcing obedience of slaves.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..."

1 Timothy 6:1–2 – Slaves should regard their masters as worthy of full respect.

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect..."

Titus 2:9–10 – Slaves are told to be subject to their masters in everything, to be trustworthy and not talk back.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything..."

1 Peter 2:18–21 – Slaves should submit to even harsh masters and endure suffering as a good thing in God's eyes.

"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

Philemon 1:10–16 – Paul sends the escaped slave Onesimus back to his master Philemon, though urges Philemon to receive him kindly as a brother.

"...no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."

Luke 12:47–48 – In a parable, Jesus describes a master beating his slaves, with no condemnation of the master.

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready... will be beaten with many blows."

Here are some verses where Jesus speaks or acts malevolently:

1. "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34–36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...’”
This contradicts the image of Jesus as a peacemaker and suggests division and familial conflict.

2. "Throw them into the blazing furnace..."
Matthew 13:41–42

“The Son of Man will send out his angels... They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus speaks of violent eternal punishment for the wicked — a recurring theme in his parables.

3. "Bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Luke 19:27 (from the Parable of the Ten Minas)

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
While technically part of a parable, the speaker in the story represents Jesus himself. The violent imagery is unsettling.

4. "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire..."
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
Another passage affirming belief in eternal torment for nonbelievers or those who fail to do good.

5. Drowns 2,000 pigs after casting out demons
Mark 5:11–13

“He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd... rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”
Jesus allows a legion of demons to destroy innocent animals — property of the local people.

6. "Let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 8:21–22

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
This callous-sounding response comes after a man asks permission to bury his father first.

7. "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother..."
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple.”
A demand for total allegiance to Jesus over all human relationships — using the word hate.

8. "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs."
Matthew 15:22–26

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Jesus compares a Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman to a dog when she asks for healing for her daughter.

9. Curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Mark 11:12–14, 20–21

“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
Jesus kills a fig tree for having no fruit — despite it not being the season for figs.

10. "Whoever is not with me is against me..."
Matthew 12:30

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
This black-and-white view implies no neutrality or middle ground — only allegiance or opposition.

God lied to Adam and Eve

Genesis 2:16,17
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

What was said: In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would result in death on that day.

What happened: Adam and Eve eat the fruit, but they do not die that day. Instead, they are:

Banished from Eden.

Cursed with suffering (painful childbirth, hard labor, mortality).

Told they would return to dust — implying eventual death, not immediate.

Wider Fallout: Collective Punishment
Not only were Adam and Eve punished, but all of humanity and even non-human animals suffer and die.

Eve’s punishment was extended to all women, with pain in childbirth and submission to men (Genesis 3:16).

Adam’s punishment led to a cursed ground, requiring hard labor to survive (Genesis 3:17–19).

This presents God as:

Inflicting intergenerational punishment.

Imposing suffering on billions (including animals) for a single act of disobedience.

Commanding reproduction (Genesis 1:28, Genesis 3:16) even though childbirth is cursed — a painful contradiction.

Deception: God said one thing (immediate death) but did something else.

Cruelty: Instead of just death, the punishment was lifelong and multigenerational suffering.

Injustice: All descendants and other species suffer for the mistake of two.

From an ethical perspective, punishing innocents for the actions of others — especially when omniscient and omnipotent — is morally evil.

Please see https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com which goes through the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon and the Bhagavad Gita and points out the various issues with them. If you are short on time, please see https://www.evilbible.com which goes through the evil verses in the Bible.

I don't need to be perfect to know which Biblical verses are evil.

I am completely certain of the following:

1. I am conscious as I type these words.
2. I am typing in English.
3. I am not all-knowing.
4. I am not all-powerful.
5. I change.
6. I know concepts, e.g. what a square or circle or triangle is.
7. I know apparent facts about reality, e.g. the Earth orbits the Sun, the Moon orbits the Earth.
8. I know how to walk, run, eat, drink, cook, shop, work, read, write, type, go to the toilet, cycle, swim, etc.
9. I can't do lots of things I really want to do e.g. go back in time and prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths and make all living things forever happy.
10. I do some things even though I don't want to do them. Here are some things I have done, currently do or will do even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Snore
20. Think
21. Feel
22. Choose
23. Be conceived
24. Be born
25. Remember some events that I don't want to remember
26. Forget information that I want to remember
27. Die

I am almost certain of the following:

1. I and all the other organisms currently alive will die. Every second brings all organisms closer to death.
2. My body, other organisms, the Earth and the Universe really exist and they are not part of a simulation or hallucination or dream or illusion.
3. Other organisms, e.g. humans, cows, dogs, cats, chickens, pigs, lions, elephants, butterflies, whales, dolphins, etc., are sentient beings who feel pain.
4. Being a non-consumer is more ethical than being an autotroph, being an autotroph is more ethical than being a vegan/herbivore, being a vegan is more ethical than being a vegetarian, and being a vegetarian is more ethical than being an omnivore or carnivore.
5. Gods do not exist.
6. Souls do not exist.
7. Reincarnation does not happen.
8. Resurrection does not happen.
10. Organisms evolved and were not created by God or Gods.
11. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth became extinct in 5 mass extinctions long before humans evolved.
12. Humans and other organisms make choices but they are not free from determinants and constraints. Our choices are determined and constrained by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The reason I have put this one in the almost certain category is that it is possible that bodies, genes, cells, stars, planets, moons, galaxies, universes may not actually exist. These things could be part of a simulation or dream or hallucination or illusion. It is impossible to know with complete certainty. I could be a solipsistic soul experiencing the illusion of being in a human body on a planet in a universe or I could be a body without any soul - I don't know these things for sure, hence I am an agnostic. There are many hypotheses that can't be tested e.g. simulation hypothesis, illusion hypothesis, dream hypothesis, hallucination hypothesis, solipsism hypothesis, philosophical zombie hypothesis, panpsychism hypothesis, deism hypothesis, theism hypothesis, pantheism hypothesis, panentheism hypothesis, etc. Just because a hypothesis can't be tested, it does not mean it is true or false. It just means that it is currently untestable.

Implying your ability to understand is perfect — Outlander

My ability to understand is not perfect. Everything that exists is imperfect.

The poor shall inherit the earth" - used to placate the oppressed.
— Truth Seeker

You seem to have conflated verse 3--"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and verse 5--"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth". — BC

I was thinking of Luke Chapter 6:

20Looking up at His disciples, Jesus said:

“Blessed are you who are poor,

for yours is the kingdom of God.

21Blessed are you who hunger now,

for you will be filled.

Blessed are you who weep now,

for you will laugh.

22Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. 23Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For their fathers treated the prophets in the same way.

24But woe to you who are rich,

for you have already received your comfort.

25Woe to you who are well fed now,

for you will hunger.

Woe to you who laugh now,

for you will mourn and weep.

26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,

for their fathers treated the false prophets in the same way.

why expect religions to be better than anything else? — BC

If religions have a divine origin, then they should be perfect. Sadly, they are of human origin, hence their imperfections.

I despair.

That's so disturbing and horrific.

On 24 December 2024, a Christian man smeared our window with blood and tried to knock our front door down. He gave us death threats. We phoned the police and the police arrested him. The police wanted to know if we wanted to press charges. We said that we didn't want to press charges and asked the police to get the man help for his alcoholism. The police did that and the man is in a program for alcoholism. If we had pressed charges, the man would have gone to jail because we recorded his death threats.

Six of my relatives and my best friend were killed in separate incidents. I didn't hunt down the perpetrators and punish them. Could any of the perpetrators have refrained from killing? Not unless the determinants (i.e. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences) of their choices were changed.

The tit for tat approach makes the world worse. Of course, we need to protect victims from perpetrators - we should do this by placing perpetrators in quarantine and helping them change.

Totally get it. And that's why you just said what you said, not necessarily because you mean it, but just because you had to say it. — Hanover

I mean what I said.

So please dear friend, do not judge me and please show me compassion when I hire more police officers, build more jails, and empower more prosecutors and judges to assure safety to the citizens. — Hanover

Of course, I don't judge you. If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I would do as you do.

I'm definitely not a follower of compassionism. — Malcolm Parry

If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I wouldn't be a compassionist either.

No blame, no credit, only understanding and love for you and everyone else, too.

I’m not sure that answers the question. What you’re saying is a well-known trope, essentially, if you were me you would be following the same path.

But my question isn’t about the obvious factors of personal situations/histories/biology, but about the specific thoughts or questions that you are working to address through your preoccupation with goodness. I’m assuming you are trying to achieve something and I’m interested in what that is. But you don’t need to answer if you don’t want to. — Tom Storm

I agree that if I were you, I would be making your choices and vice versa. My goal is to save and improve as many lives as possible. The reason this is my goal is the fact that there is much suffering, injustice, and death in the world.

I get that you disagree with me about the Christianity reference. Disagreement is healthy. Happy to put to that to one side. The question remains: Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance? — Tom Storm

I already answered this question in my previous post. It's the inevitable outcome of my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences dynamically interacting with each other. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, then you would be typing these words where and when I am typing these words. Conversely, if I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, then I would be reading these words where and when you are reading these words. We are all living inevitable lives by making inevitable choices.

I never said Christianity is all loving and I know the old testament God is like a violent mafia boss. I said your message was ostensibly Christian. And it certainly fits. — Tom Storm

It's not just the Old Testament God, the New Testament God is also evil. My message is very far from Christianity because my message has nothing to do with Christ. Christianity does not teach hard determinism, and it does not teach love for all. Compassionism stems from hard determinism.

Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance? — Tom Storm

It's the inevitable outcome of my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences dynamically interacting with each other. I deserver neither blame, nor credit for anything. Nor does any other organism.





Genes, early environments, early nutrients, and early experiences play a foundational role in the lives of all living things. When my Dad's sperm fused with my Mum's egg, a zygote was formed. If I were to go back in time and replace the genes in that zygote with the genes of a planarian and change the cellular structures to match planarian cells, you would be able to behead me, and I would just be able to grow a new head and brain. Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences don't merely influence our choices. They determine our choices, and they constrain our choices. A planarian can't post my posts to you because he or she does not have my genes, my environments, my nutrients and my experiences. This is 100% certain. It is also 100% certain that no living thing chooses to come into existence, chooses their genes, early environments, early nutrients, and early experiences. We can't be blamed or credited for the foundational variables of our lives that we did not choose at all. We all make choices, but our choices are never free from the determinants - which are genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences (GENE). Nor are our choices free from constraints. Also, our choices have consequences on ourselves, the world and others. I call this the GENE Causal Self Model. It has a sequence:
World + Others →
Genes + Environments + Nutrients + Experiences →
Desire (what we want to do) + Capacity (what we can do) →
Behaviour (what we actually do) →
Changes to Genes + Environments + Nutrients + Experiences + changes to the World and Others.

The world and others create genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, which construct the self, which has desires and capacities, which lead to behaviour, which leads to changes to genes, environments, nutrients and experiences and changes to the world and others.

It's still a Christian message. You don't need God to have a Christian moral outlook, it's embedded in culture. It's often said that human rights and secular morality are Christianity and Christ. — Tom Storm

Have you read the whole Bible?

Here are some verses where the Biblical God commands genocide:

1. 1 Samuel 15:3
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”
— God's command to Saul via the prophet Samuel.

2. Numbers 31:17 - 18
“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
— Moses conveys God’s command after the Israelites' war with the Midianites.

3. Deuteronomy 2:34
“At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them - men, women and children. We left no survivors.”
— Description of Israel’s conquests commanded by God.

4. Deuteronomy 3:6
“We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city - men, women and children.”

5. Joshua 6:21
“They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.”
— Refers to the destruction of Jericho.

6. Hosea 13:16
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”
— A prophetic warning attributed to God's judgment.

Here are some Bible verses about slavery:

1. Exodus 21:2–6 – Hebrew slaves can be kept for six years, unless they choose to stay permanently. Female slaves and children are treated as property.

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free..."

2. Exodus 21:20–21 – If a slaveowner beats a slave and the slave dies immediately, it's punishable. But if the slave lingers for a day or two before dying, the owner is not punished.

"He is not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

3. Leviticus 25:44–46 – Foreigners can be bought as slaves and inherited as property, passed on to children.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... you can make them your property for life."

4. Deuteronomy 15:12–18 – Hebrew slaves are to be released after six years, with generosity, but only applies to fellow Israelites.

"...do not send them away empty-handed. Supply them liberally..."

5. Deuteronomy 20:10–14 – Women and children of conquered peoples can be taken as plunder.

"...you may take the women, children, livestock, and everything else in the city as plunder for yourselves..."

6. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 – Allows Israelites to take captive women as wives after war.

"...bring her into your home... shave her head, trim her nails..."

7. Deuteronomy 23:15–16 – Unusually, this permits escaped slaves to live freely in Israel and forbids returning them to their masters.

8. Numbers 31:17–18 – After war with the Midianites, Moses instructs the Israelites to kill all boys and non-virgin women, but keep virgin girls for themselves.

"...keep alive for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

8. Ephesians 6:5–8 – Slaves are told to obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart..."

9. Colossians 3:22–25 – Similar to Ephesians, reinforcing obedience of slaves.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..."

10. 1 Timothy 6:1–2 – Slaves should regard their masters as worthy of full respect.

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect..."

11. Titus 2:9–10 – Slaves are told to be subject to their masters in everything, to be trustworthy and not talk back.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything..."

12. 1 Peter 2:18–21 – Slaves should submit to even harsh masters and endure suffering as a good thing in God's eyes.

"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

13. Philemon 1:10–16 – Paul sends the escaped slave Onesimus back to his master Philemon, though urges Philemon to receive him kindly as a brother.

"...no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."

14. Luke 12:47–48 – In a parable, Jesus describes a master beating his slaves, with no condemnation of the master.

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready... will be beaten with many blows."

Here are some verses where Jesus speaks or acts malevolently:

1. "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34–36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...’”
This contradicts the image of Jesus as a peacemaker and suggests division and familial conflict.

2. "Throw them into the blazing furnace..."
Matthew 13:41–42

“The Son of Man will send out his angels... They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus speaks of violent eternal punishment for the wicked — a recurring theme in his parables.

3. "Bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Luke 19:27 (from the Parable of the Ten Minas)

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
While technically part of a parable, the speaker in the story represents Jesus himself. The violent imagery is unsettling.

4. "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire..."
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
Another passage affirming belief in eternal torment for nonbelievers or those who fail to do good.

5. Drowns 2,000 pigs after casting out demons
Mark 5:11–13

“He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd... rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”
Jesus allows a legion of demons to destroy innocent animals — property of the local people.

6. "Let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 8:21–22

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
This callous-sounding response comes after a man asks permission to bury his father first.

7. "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother..."
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple.”
A demand for total allegiance to Jesus over all human relationships — using the word hate.

8. "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs."
Matthew 15:22–26

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Jesus compares a Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman to a dog when she asks for healing for her daughter.

9. Curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Mark 11:12–14, 20–21

“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
Jesus kills a fig tree for having no fruit — despite it not being the season for figs.

10. "Whoever is not with me is against me..."
Matthew 12:30

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
This black-and-white view implies no neutrality or middle ground — only allegiance or opposition.

As you can see from the quoted Bible verses, Christianity is not all-loving.

Compassionism stems from hard determinism and the resultant compassion for all.

It's pretty much a form of Christianity. You seem to be intent on pushing yourself to be super good and significant in the world. Is this a bit grandiose; what's the motivation? — Tom Storm

I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Compassionist who does not believe in any God, so it is definitely not a form of Christianity. My motivation is my love for everyone.

You joined on April Fools Day. Just kidding. That's great. I'm sure you're a positive influence on your community. Sometimes a little compassion makes a huge difference. — frank

I deliberately declared myself a Compassionist on April Fool's Day! I did this because the Bible (New Living Translation) says in Psalm 14:1, "Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!" I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Compassionist. The heart is a pump. My thoughts, emotions and choices occur in my brain.

I hear you. But with some people, you're going to have to rain hell down on them to make them leave you alone. — frank

I understand what you mean. I have not met those people yet. I have met many selfish people in my life so far and I have done my best not to harm them and not be like them. I became a Compassionist on the 1st of April 2006 and have managed to practise Compassionism despite many challenges.

Doormatism is where a person acts like a doormat. Some people won't respect you unless you meet their aggression by making a giant fool out of them in front of everybody. After that, they'll magically respect you. — frank

Love for all is not doormatism because if you are acting like a doormat, you are not loving yourself. Loving all, is a balancing act, where one does one's best to make every interaction and transaction a win-win for everyone involved.

I'm afraid this might end up as door-mat-ism. — frank

I don't know what that means. Please explain. Thank you.

Please report back when you have completed this literary adventure. — boethius

I will. Thank you for your interest.

Finland is the 12th country on Earth in terms of HDI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index Therefore, I am surprised by the level of corruption you mentioned. Why is there so much corruption in Finland, despite its high HDI?

nearly every member of our society would pat me on the back for taking the money and demonstrate zero concern for what organized crime is doing to children and other victims all around the globe. — boethius

I wouldn't pat you on the back if you had taken the bribe. I think doing the right thing is important.

I am reading a book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgive-Good-Proven-Prescription-Happiness-ebook/dp/B003SE6Y28 that I bought today. I love it and recommend it most highly.

It's self evident that exposing reasonable suspicion of money laundering is the right thing to do. — boethius

I agree. I despair when I think about all the suffering, injustice, and death. My depression has gotten worse.

Had I taken it upon myself to coverup these illicit financial events, no one would have ever heard about them again. Forever lost to the entropy of corporate email compaction. — boethius

I think you did the right thing by blowing the whistle. Well done.

Fucking with fascist police is just as exhilarating as base jumping off a mountain, but the difference is far more people benefit from fucking with fascist police than just the personal experience of jumping a long way.

For example, police had me in their little van hole for a few hours. Got to go the whole way without a seatbelt (which the van hole doesn't have for some reason). Absolutely off the hook adrenaline rush. — boethius

You are so brave. I hope you triumph against the corrupt.

I am so sorry that I can't right all wrongs.

Or perhaps the harder it is to keep doing things that led to your depression in the first place, but the easier it becomes to make some radical change. — boethius

I first had depression when my younger brother died because of a doctor's error on 9 February 1988.

I was vegetarian for some years in France and as organic as possible.

However, in moving to Finland I did not feel I was maintaining the same health on a vegetarian diet.

It's not ideal, but I am not against predation and animal husbandry on principle (for the cycle of life arguments above), population density in Finland is low so animal husbandry is not as destructive as elsewhere, and we have far bigger problems to address so I decided is was best to be fully effective. The problem being little grows in Finland so most fruits and vegetables at the supermarket are imported, not so fresh, not so nutritious, super little organic options compared to France, and also really expensive. — boethius

I am so sorry. I didn't know what it was like to live in Finland. I have never been there.

"if you report money laundering to police, they won' investigate that but will put you under investigation instead and destroy your career" and then recommended I take what they agreed was a bribe to not-report-money laundering. — boethius

That's awful. Finland is supposed to be the second least corrupt country! Please see: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2024 I am so sorry this happened to you.

There is no proof she experiences anything at all, as you could be hallucinating this whole conversation along with this video, or then there is a world as we commonly understand it but she just appears to be be conscious but is not actually conscious.

There is no box that you can put some matter inside and it lights up green if it's conscious or red if it's unconscious. — boethius

I agree.

And you feel there is nothing in the slightest to change? — boethius

The more depressed I am, the worse I feel, and the harder it is for me to do things. I have been at minus five on the mood scale many times.

But in the meantime there is existing life that in need of protection. — boethius

Only if solipsism is false and other living things actually exist. I think solipsism is false even though I can't prove it to be false. I am a vegan egalitarian because I care about other sentient organisms. Are you a vegan egalitarian?

it is only when depressed that it is possible to analyze our own ethical system — boethius

I don't think this is true. I have considered my ethical system both before being depressed and during depressive episodes. Here is a mood scale:

+5: Total loss of judgement, exorbitant spending, religious delusions or hallucinations.
+4: Lost touch with reality, incoherent, no sleep, paranoid and vindictive, reckless behaviour.
+3: Inflated self-esteem, rapid thoughts and speech, counter-productive simultaneous tasks.
+2: Very productive, everything to excess, charming and talkative.
+1: Self-esteem good, optimistic, sociable and articulate, good decisions and get work done.
0: Mood in balance, no symptoms of depression or mania.
-1: Slight withdrawal from social situations, concentration less than usual, slight agitation.
-2: Feeling of panic and anxiety, concentration difficult and memory poor, some comfort in routine.
-3: Slow thinking, no appetite, need to be alone, sleep excessive or difficult, everything a struggle.
-4: Feeling of hopelessness and guilt, thoughts of suicide, little movement, impossible to do anything.
-5: Endless suicidal thoughts, no way out, no movement, everything is bleak and it will always be like this.

I am at minus two on the mood scale right now.

You may need to reflect deeply on this and also perhaps study life systems in more detail to appreciate how life is and not what you wish it to be. — boethius

Thank you for your advice. I will do this.

Earlier you seemed to agree that this was not an achievable objective. — boethius

It is not an achievable objective. I am still thinking about it because it is so fascinating. I have no way to achieve the objective of upgrading matter-based lifeforms that need to consume air, water and food into energy-based lifeforms that can live forever without consuming anything.