I am seeing a bad argument against QV being made in the thread: <Quantifiers are not subject to second-order equivocation; therefore QV fails>. The problem is that this is valid but unsound, as the main premise is false.

All language is subject to second-order equivocation, including logical language. The meaning of one person’s concept is never univocally the same as the meaning of another person’s concept. There is no magical reason why this does not apply to quantifiers, and there is no magical reason why some disputes should not be reducible to quantifier equivocation. This is the first point.

Now one might object that even though all linguistic terms are subject to second-order equivocation, they still want to see how in particular quantifiers run into this problem. I think the example that Hale and Wright give is one way to see it (Banno’s fiat rejection notwithstanding). More simply, someone might contend that second-order equivocation occurs with the term ‘apple.’ An apple univocalist might take two different people and ask what they mean by the term. Both answer, “A red fruit.” He then shows each person a picture of a paradigmatic red apple, and both identify it as an apple. Has he defeated the thesis? The proponent of the thesis would probably say that he has only defeated a trivialization or strawman of the thesis. The proponent would probably take edge cases to demonstrate that second-order equivocation is occurring in more subtle ways.

Maybe the proponent would take each person, sit them in the same room, and ask them to evaluate the sentence < Ǝx(R(x) ^ A(x)) > (“There exists an x such that x is in the room and x is an apple”). In the corner of the room is a painting by Cézanne, and within the painting is depicted a paradigmatic red apple. One person says that the sentence is true and the second person says that it is false. Upon inspection we realize that the disagreement is not over whether the painting depicts an apple, but is instead over whether the quantifier captures it as an apple. Specifically, it is over whether an imaged thing exists through the image. This is an extensional evidence for quantifier equivocation, different from @fdrake's intensional evidence. The paper itself admits this possibility. It begins an argument:

It is worth noting that even if we concede that difference in domain entails difference in quantifier meaning, the quantifier-variance theorist is still not in a secure position. . . — Quantifier Variance Dissolved, p. 293

But eventually goes on to admit that there are many problems with its attempted response:

There are, however, a number of difficulties with this response. . . Second, even if the maximalist is inclined to rule out dialetheism by fiat, it is still unclear what the maximal domain ultimately is. After all, there is widespread disagreement about what exists. Just within philosophical theorizing, it is contentious as to whether any of the following items exist or not: mathematical entities, universals, possible worlds, subatomic particles, and even tables. For each of these items, arguments have been devised for their existence as well as for their nonexistence. Thus, to the extent that there is disagreement about what exists, the maximalist response ends up begging the question against all of those who deny the existence of any contentious entity that the unrestricted-quantification theorist intends to include in the maximalist ontology.

If the maximal domain is not a set, but some sort of (non-set-theoretic) collection of existent objects, the same concern will emerge in light of the controversial nature of what exists. In fact, it is unclear how exactly the maximal domain is supposed to be specified. In order to determine which objects are in such a domain, one needs to specify what exists. But it is unclear how to determine what exists, given that the specification of an ontology ultimately depends on the background theory that provides the identity and persistence conditions for the relevant objects. And typically, a difference in background theory leads to a difference in the specification of the ontology. — Quantifier Variance Dissolved, pp. 295-6

The gist of the counterargument is that wherever the maximal domain is substantially disputed there is (second-order) quantifier equivocation, and there is no shortage of disputes about the maximal domain. The apple-gazers and those who disagree over mereological composites in your OP are two examples of second-order quantifier equivocation, as is Hale and Wright’s example.

A primary objection is presumably that <If you believe in a unicorn and I do not, then your maximal domain is larger than mine by one, but the meaning of quantification does not change. You can quantify over your unicorn the same way you would quantify over a horse>. This is a legitimate objection when the dispute over the domain is over a matter of fact, like the existence of unicorns. The problem is that the relevant, “substantial” disputes are over much more than matters of fact. To disagree over a mereological composite is to disagree over what is quantifiable in a much more relevant sense than the unicorn. If I think a mereological composite is quantifiable and you do not, then we are almost certainly understanding quantification in different ways. These disputes can also go beyond existence, as the paper notes, “[maximal] quantification would range unrestrictedly over everything, whether what is quantified over exists or not” (297). These are the sorts of edge cases that a legitimate appraisal of quantifier equivocation needs to reckon with. The paradigm, “red apple” cases are not to the point.

The problem here is that quantification derives from the meaning of 'being' or 'exists', and this is one of the most elusive and foundational concepts, inextricably bound up with one's fundamental intellectual stance. — Leontiskos

Edit: For a more mundane and perhaps clumsy analogy, consider a scenario where we both drive a Jeep Wrangler. Now if I think Australia exists and you do not, then I will think I can drive my Jeep on Australia and you will not think you can drive your Jeep on Australia, but our dispute is over Australia, not the Jeep (i.e. "If Australia exists then quantify over the unicorn the same way you would quantify over a horse"). But if we go out driving and we find a rock formation, and we are both looking at this same rock formation, and I say "yes" and you say "no," then our dispute is no longer over the territory, it is over the Jeep. Or, it is over the territory insofar as it is related to the Jeep. This would be something like the paper suggests, where there is a dispute over whether it is possible to quantify over some thing that both parties take to be non-existent. The point here is that the claim that ontological disputes cannot be related to quantification is false.

There is never a shortage of irony in these parts:

: "Logic gives us a variety of ways in which we might talk about how things are. It does not commit us to this or that ontology."
: "Would you say that it is possible for advances in logic to take place?"
: "[Logic first took root within a transcendental metaphysic]"
: "perhaps logic has advanced since then?"
@Leontiskos: :roll:

As I explained in the absence of any other truthmaker belief is all we've got. I'm opting for intellectual honesty. — Janus

Okay, I see. You are proposing a kind of moral subjectivism derived from (attenuated) moral skepticism. "Because moral truth is not knowable we just have to go on a best guess or a feeling, but these are not firm or binding." I think this is a live view. I think it still has to contend with the OP. Here is what I have said:

According to Wikipedia ethical subjectivism is cognitive-propositional, and I have found this to be the case among self-professed subjectivists. I don't think you are disputing this even though your thesis draws near to emotivism, but here is the problem I see with subjectivism and emotivism:

1. Moral propositions are (meant to be) binding upon oneself and others
2. Subjectivist and emotivist propositions are in no way binding upon oneself and others
3. Therefore, subjectivist and emotivist propositions are not moral propositions

(I.e. Subjectivism and emotivism are therefore not moral theories, because they fail to achieve normativity.)

"I feel like murdering is abhorrent" (subjectivism) and "Boo murder!" (emotivism) are in no way binding on others, and they are arguably not even binding on oneself. Feelings do not seem to be adequate to justify moral propositions. Going back to the OP, I would say that it is not only beliefs that are inadequate to justify moral propositions, but that feelings are also inadequate. — Leontiskos

Thanks - I will come back to the rest of your post but let me speak to this before signing off for the night:

But most ethics don't justify violence on the basis of anger at an individual. The attachments preached are love, loyalty, and so forth. Striking out of anger is usually shamed, unless there is some justification for the anger, so of course -- due to our attachment to "One ought not strike out of anger" we will follow that to its logical implication and also say to our risible friend "That's not a good reason, let's go cool off outside" — Moliere

I don't think the a priori guarantee that, "any particular ethic can parse attachments into the good ones and the bad ones," is redeemable, and this is especially true if moral subjectivism doesn't add up to a bona fide moral theory. (I don't think it does, in part because it doesn't seem to possess representation at a professional level.)

For example, "striking out of anger is usually shamed," but it does not follow that emotion-subjectivism is capable of such a prohibition. We can't assume that emotion-subjectivism will be able to do all of the things that normal ethical theories are able to do. If we assumed that then we could never make a case against emotion-subjectivism.

The interesting thing about, "One ought not strike out of anger," is that it is purely negative. "If this emotion tells you to strike, don't do it." If emotions are the things by which we are to know what to do, then what is the thing that tells us to not act on an emotion? It's not an emotion, because emotions don't persuade, they overpower or incline. What I am assuming here is that the experience of the emotion is what constitutes the truth-maker. Of course the emotion-subjectivist could draw up an extrinsic map about which truths are "made" by which emotions, and that map might include, "Anger $\to$ do not strike," but this is pretty weird given the fact that the experience of anger tells us to strike. Such a map apparently cannot be emotion-based if it is telling us to act contrary to emotion. (Anger is relevant because I do not think an emotion-based ethic would be able to restrain anger nearly as much as our common, rational ethics do.)

But I will come back to the rest...

Logic gives us a variety of ways in which we might talk about how things are. It does not commit us to this or that ontology. — Banno

Logic is the view from nowhere? Would you say that it is possible for advances in logic to take place?

A feeling isn't a non-cognitive stance taken towards the trueness or falseness of a proposition. — Moliere

Well I tend to agree, but you are the one claiming that feelings are truth-makers for moral propositions. :wink:

The Moral Subjectivist would just claim that the truth of the moral statements will come from those who speak those statements and their truth or falsity of their various commitments — Moliere

I don't really know what a sentence like this means, and because of that I dislike the word "just." :razz:

but the reason people enact them is due to some attachment, which can include a moral attachment like the example of the person who wants to get over his anger to become better. These sorts of feelings are just as much feelings as the ones which are more commonly named, in this broad use of "Feelings" — Moliere

I would say that to judge something good or worth doing is not a feeling. Adverting to my thread, a feeling is analogous to a hypothetical 'ought', and rendering a non-hypothetical ought-judgment requires taking into account the various hypothetical 'oughts' (including feelings) and then rendering a judgment. That judgment is not a feeling; it is the thing that takes feelings into account.

More simply, I don't think feelings are truth-makers for moral propositions. "I should smash this guy across the face." "Why?" "Because I have a feeling of anger." This is incomplete. The feeling of anger does not in itself make the moral proposition true. It may be true, and the anger may signal its truth, but it may also be false, and the anger may be a consequence of stupidity or error. The anger itself is not a truthmaker.

I would think that the Moral Subjectivist could agree that being dominated by emotions is a bad thing, though. — Moliere

At this point I disagree. Let me continue to class your variety of subjectivism as feeling-subjectivism (or emotion-subjectivism). Now if the emotion-subjectivist is to temper emotion, then they will need some non-emotion-based authority to step in to do that tempering. One cannot rely solely on emotions to underwrite the prohibition against being dominated by emotions. I can expand on this, but let's look at your example:

Rendering Plato's point in MS for someone who struggles with temper, say: The MS beleives "One ought not act on anger" which means "I feel disgust with myself when I act angry, and I want to be a better person", and if they do, in fact, feel disgust with themselves in that moment and want to be a better person then "One ought not act on anger" is true when that speaker says it. — Moliere

The premise here is an implicit emotion hierarchy, where disgust is worse than anger (or some level of disgust is worse than some level of anger). What establishes the hierarchy? What determines when the level of disgust is too high to be tolerated? If what are at stake are truly cognitive truths, then emotion itself cannot establish hierarchies or determine thresholds. It is reason which does all of this, and therefore reason is implicitly assumed in the background. The person who has a hierarchy of emotions has already gone beyond appeal to emotions.

I like your general statement. It seems to get along with the notion that reason and emotion aren't at odds, except you'd say that agents and patients aren't at odds.

I think we only become patients upon seeking a cure. Before that we may be sick, but we're not patients -- and I think that desire for a cure is an important part of any rational path to self-improvement. At the very least in terms of actually being successful in changing rather than listing things that we should be doing (but won't). — Moliere

Ah, let me clarify. I am using the term "patient" in a more classical-etymological sense. An agent is one who acts. A patient is one who is acted upon. The opposite of an action is a passion, for an action is something that we do and a passion is something that we undergo (or something that is done to us). The points in my last post were presupposing this definition. Colloquially we have phrases to represent this, such as, "Do not be carried away by your emotions!" When we become pure patients, at the whim of our emotions, something has gone wrong. E-motions are moving forces which are meant to coordinate with our agency, not to override and destroy our agency.

Emotivists (to my knowledge) don't claim that you are beholden to your emotions to act. Just that emotions inform moral proclamations. One can simply act against their emotions. I do this constantly. To me, one of the biggest benefits of emotivism is that it explains moral disagreement, even intrapersonally. I can have conflicted moral standpoints, because the views done rest of logical predicates (i.e confirming/disconfirming conclusions regardless of their valence). — AmadeusD

I think that tracks what I said in the edit <here>. In the quote you gave I was admittedly using "emotivist" in a looser sense to capture the family of views to which Moliere has been speaking. On this view one is justified in acting on the basis of emotion, even to the point where "The feeling is the non-cognitive truth-maker of the cognitive belief" ().

P2 would be "A belief is a cognitive stance taken..."

and P3 would be "Feelings make moral propositions true or false"

The feeling is the non-cognitive truth-maker of the cognitive belief. — Moliere

Okay, I thought you were classing your form of feeling-subjectivism as a variety of cognitivism. Regardless, the point is that P1 is not restricted to beliefs. Presumably the feeling-subjectivist is saddled with the same tension that feelings both can and cannot act as truth-makers for (moral) propositions. So we could rewrite P2 as something like, "P2: A feeling is a non-cognitive stance taken towards the trueness or falseness of a proposition." Again, I don't see how feelings have any more power to make moral propositions true or false than beliefs have.

But it can be modified pretty easily by noting that 2 can be changed to "feelings/the world make moral propositions true or false", and then there's no contradiction -- at least as I'm seeing it now. — Moliere

The same sort of inconsistency would arise as follows:

P1: A stance taken on the trueness or falseness of something, is independent of the trueness or falseness of that something.
P2: A feeling is a (cognitive) stance taken on the trueness or falseness of a proposition.
C1: Therefore, a feeling about a proposition cannot make that proposition true or false.

P3: Feelings make moral propositions true or false.
P4: C1 and P3 being true are logically contradictory.
C2: Therefore, moral subjectivism is internally inconsistent.

No I didn't — Janus

Yes you did:

Saying Torturing babies is wrong" is really just shorthand for the former "I believe......" — Janus

but my believing that does not make it so for them — Janus

And that is exactly why Ross is distinguishing (1) from (2):

1. Torturing babies is wrong
2. I believe torturing babies is wrong

The point is that (2) does not entail (1).

If I want to claim something is wrong tout court, then I need to be able to say what it is that makes it so, otherwise it is mere hand-waving. — Janus

No one is asserting that something is wrong tout court. That's not what this thread is about. You haven't understood the OP. I would suggest finding one of the many threads on moral realism and asking your questions there. This thread is about claims of the sort, < 2 $\to$ 1 >. See P1 of the OP.

I haven't anywhere said the two sentences are semantically equivalent. — Janus

You literally claimed that one is shorthand for the other. :roll:

- Are you conceding that (1) and (2) are different? Or are you ignoring your mistake and running to try a new argument?

If I say, "I believe torturing babies is wrong" then that amounts to saying, "I believe no one should torture babies". It follows that I believe it to be a normative claim. Saying Torturing babies is wrong" is really just shorthand for the former "I believe......" — Janus

1. "Torturing babies is wrong"
2. "I believe (1)"

As the thread has taken some pains to indicate, (1) and (2) are not the same thing. (1) is not shorthand for (2), just as "Aliens exist" is not shorthand for "I believe aliens exist" (). Claims about what is true are not shorthand for claims about what one believes to be true. Your idea here is a fantastic variety of relativism.

Now, occasionally in everyday speech we assert in the form, "I believe such-and-such" (i.e. "Such-and-such is true"). But in this informal speech what is being asserted is such-and-such, not the note of belief. Or else what this indicates is that one thinks such-and-such is probably true.

When we engage in ethical reasoning, are we inquiring into whether people believe something, or whether something is right or wrong? — Leontiskos

If we are inquiring into whether something is right or wrong then the question of how we know that something is right or wrong is not a derailment. — Fooloso4

• Leontiskos: The activity of ethical reasoning is X; the subjectivist is not doing X; therefore the subjectivist is not engaged in ethics.
• Fooloso: Prove to me, via ethical reasoning, that abortion is wrong. More generally, how is anything proved to be wrong?

If you think that ethical reasoning as I have defined it is not possible, that's fine. Maybe the subjectivist also holds that it is not possible. In that case I think they should say, "I don't think ethics is possible, therefore I do this other thing instead."

I don't like to separate reason from emotion in such a hard-and-fast manner. There's a difference, but it's more of a difference because we've marked it in English -- the Subjective and the Objective -- but I think there's too much philosophical hay made out of the distinction.

Neither the passions nor the mind are primary -- they form a unity that is the judger. — Moliere

I don't hold that reason and emotion map to the objective and the subjective. One way to access Plato's point is to note that an agent can marshal and include emotions within their agency, but someone who is dominated by their emotions is to that extent not an agent at all. They are a patient (hence, "passions"). To grant emotions autonomy in themselves is to have cut oneself off from the ability to distinguish a proper relation to emotion from an improper relation to emotion, and it strikes me as self-evident that there are proper and improper ways to relate to emotion. More generally: we are simultaneously agents and patients; the emotivist excludes the former and the rationalist excludes the latter.

Yes, good spotting. "Ontologically neutral quantification" (which I bolded, above) is exactly what we want. It's a good way of describing the difference between the "exists" of quantification and the "exists" of ontology. — J

If you read the paper I don't think it is giving sound arguments for its claims, particularly in the section quoted. It is trading in "substantial inferences that are not sound" (). Perhaps it is aware of this insofar as it is using poetical words such as "illustrates" (certainly this "illustration" does not rise to the level of coherent argumentation). As is set out on pages 301-2, there are a plethora of different opinions on the relation between quantification and existence, and this itself seems to be good evidence that quantification does not have one univocal meaning.

As I see it too many questions are being begged. For example, the distinction between the "two roles" of quantifiers is also present in existence-predication. A phrase like, "There are some things better left unsaid," is primarily "quantificational" and not "ontological." Beyond that, the very claim that the "quantificational role" is entirely separable from ontology is the very question at stake. It can't just be assumed. Quine certainly didn't think such separation was possible. Part of the problem here is that the meaning of quantification, like the meaning of existence-predications, depends on the context and intent. Sometimes quantifiers are used with an ontological emphasis and sometimes they are not. But with Quine I would say that even where the emphasis is not on ontology an ontological commitment is still implicit. This is only escaped by stipulating that mental entities have no existence at all, which is clumsy and tautological in the sense that favors logical pluralism.*

* Edit: I see that is prepared to swallow this stipulation-approach whole and bite the bullet of excluding ontological structure. Again, ontological pluralism immediately rears its head. The question arises, "If the domain, the ontology, and the attendant quantifier semantics (and the logical system) are purely stipulative, then how is it that one stipulation could ever be more correct than another?" Positivism redux.

Is this really right? I haven't worked with modal logic deeply enough to say. Certainly I had in mind the standard use of Ǝ in non-modal logic, and I was under the impression that 'Ǝx' means 'Ǝx' no matter what may then be done to it in terms of possibility and necessity. But I'd welcome any help with this, as it's germane to the QV issue. (Is there a reason Finn and Bueno don't cite modal logic as an instance of QV?) — J

By my lights if the meaning of the existential quantifier varies in different logical systems then a basic premise of QV succeeds. fdrake is the king of logic in these parts, so I believe him. To be honest I would need to read more about QV to understand the exact contours of the thesis. Here are some related thoughts I put down when I was offline:

The more I think about this, the more it seems parallel to the debates on the univocity of being. This is, in fact, a debate on the univocity of quantification.

Quantification and predications about being are, in one way, like pointing. They point up the subject of discourse in order that it can be spoken about. Just as there is ambiguity inherent in pointing at something, so there is ambiguity inherent in quantification, but this ambiguity is always external to the pointer’s frame (that is, the frame of the person who is pointing). If I point at something, you may be confused at what I am pointing at, but I will never be. The same holds in logic. The “variance” that Hale and Wright suggest is not internal to a single logician’s frame. This would be impossible, for if the meaning of the quantifier varies in this way even within a single frame, then first-order equivocation results and the logic is destroyed. Quantifiers were designed to avoid this problem.

For this reason it makes sense for a logician to balk at QV and, despite all appearances, declare that “the misunderstanding must be produced by the language, not the quantifier!” (). From the strictly logical and axiomatic sphere, this tautologous assertion makes sense. But the problem is that the example does not present a scenario where the meaning of the quantifier varies within a single logical frame; instead it presents a scenario where the meaning varies between two different logical frames. The person who holds that <there exists something which is a compound of this pencil and your left ear> occupies a different frame than the person who holds <there is nothing which is composed of that pencil and my left ear>. I have been speaking about “equivocation,” but that term may be misleading insofar as equivocation usually means what I will dub “first-order equivocation,” namely using a term with equivocal senses within a single frame, or within the mouth of a single speaker. An example of first-order equivocation would be <Banks contain money; the river has banks; therefore the river contains money>. What Hale and Wright's example illustrates is second-order equivocation, where two frames or speakers are using a term or concept in two different ways. Thus if we were having a conversation about banks, and I was talking about river banks while you were talking about financial banks, then second-order equivocation would be occurring. I don’t think second-order equivocation exhausts the scope of QV, but it is probably the best starting point and it is also what Hale and Wright presented in the example. The more technical problem with the balking logician is that it is mere stipulation to claim that the quantifier is not part of the language. For the purposes of logic we are meant to treat quantifiers differently than the rest of the language, and perhaps we could call quantifiers “metalanguage,” but metalanguage is still language, and this becomes especially obvious in cases of second-order equivocation. It is not reasonable to claim, a priori, that quantifier meaning simply cannot vary.

The other thing to note is that while I am convinced that the inability of single-frame logic to capture analogical predication is at the root of the problem, there are plenty of philosophers—particularly Scotists—who hold that bona fide analogical predication does not even exist. But the Scotist would be much more careful with proposition (**) on page 303 of “Quantifier Variance Dissolved.” While the paper flat-footedly denies existence to mental entities, the Scotist would acknowledge that mental sets and instantiated sets both exist in the same way, and they would attempt to quantify over the “genus” or superset of these two existent sets before making the finer distinction. For example, they might try to say, “Among all existent sets, some are in the external world and some are only in the mind.”* Because quantification within a single frame must always hold steady, this finer distinction can never be done at the level of unqualified quantification.** Given its univocity axiom, this is really the only option for a formally logical approach, but to presume that the univocity axiom is more than an axiom is a mistake.

Finally, whether equivocation at the level of pointing or quantification is inevitable and insuperable depends, I think, on whether there is an objective ontological structure. Aristotle is explicit that the ontological structure of reality is substance-primary, and this means that thinking, pointing, and logic will always take their point of departure from substances. It is hard to understand the full implications that would result from denying that there is an objective ontological structure. Lots and lots of philosophers after Hume have attempted to erect dams to mitigate the damage that results if that levy breaks, but in the end those attempts may well be futile. I certainly think there is an objective ontological structure.

* This is not expressible in first-order logic without introducing existence as a predicate.

** One of the complications in all of this—and one of the ways that first- and second-order equivocation overlap—is that quantifiers are unarguably capable of capturing any one aspect of existence in isolation, but they are arguably required to “lock in” on that single aspect of existence within a given discourse once it is chosen. Quantifiers can never shift, at that unqualified level, between two different aspects or modes of being. One cannot quantify over mental sets and instantiated sets within the same discourse without introducing the superset. More generally, quantificational logic presupposes the ability to think about non-existent things, and therefore commits itself to the view that mental entities in no way exist.

- Aquinas' article on this topic is sort of fun to look at:

Article 1. Whether moral good and evil can be found in the passions of the soul?

[...]

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiv, 7) while speaking of the passions of the soul: "They are evil if our love is evil; good if our love is good."

I answer that, We may consider the passions of the soul in two ways: first, in themselves; secondly, as being subject to the command of the reason and will. If then the passions be considered in themselves, to wit, as movements of the irrational appetite, thus there is no moral good or evil in them, since this depends on the reason, as stated above (I-II:18:5). If, however, they be considered as subject to the command of the reason and will, then moral good and evil are in them. Because the sensitive appetite is nearer than the outward members to the reason and will; and yet the movements and actions of the outward members are morally good or evil, inasmuch as they are voluntary. Much more, therefore, may the passions, in so far as they are voluntary, be called morally good or evil. And they are said to be voluntary, either from being commanded by the will, or from not being checked by the will.

[...] — Aquinas, ST I-II.24.1

The quote from Augustine in the sed contra is actually very interesting as far as Thomistic moral philosophy goes. For Thomas all of the passions (emotions) are rooted in natural love. For example, fear is aversion to future evil, and because aversion to evil is always rooted in love of that which the evil destroys, fear is rooted in (natural) love. So if my dog develops a lump and I fearfully take him to the vet, I possess an aversion to a possible future evil (harm to my dog) which derives from my love for my dog. Following Augustine, if my love for my dog is properly ordered, then the fear I experience will be good. For example, even the simple fact that I took him to the vet is fear-induced, and it is presumably a good act, motivated by good fear. Yet if my love for my dog is disordered/evil, then the fear that I experience will be disordered/evil. For example, it may be out of proportion, tending to imbalance me in an undue manner.

True, but I could see how I slipped from cognitivism at the beginning into emotivism at the end when going back and re-reading, so it was muddled and confusing. — Moliere

Fair enough, although I think subjectivism easily falls into all of these ruts.

I'm playing with the idea, yeah, but I also genuinely doubt that the position must be internally inconsistent... — Moliere

I think it's mistaken but not necessarily inconsistent.

I think people take up duties out of emotional commitments to something or someone, and if they cease to have that emotional tie then the duty loses its appeal and what was a commitment becomes an ideal.

So, in a practical sense at least, our feelings are very important when it comes to moral propositions and maintaining duty. — Moliere

I would want to say that emotion often reinforces duty, but does not cause duty. For example, a friendship implies duties to the friend, and there will be an emotional reinforcement of this reality, but it does not follow that the duty derives from the emotion. In this case you have a rational emotion, because it is reinforcing a true duty. But given that there are also irrational emotions, emotion is not the per se thing that informs practical reason. We legitimately act from emotion-as-a-sign, but not from emotion-as-a-cause. We should say, "This emotion probably signifies that I have a good reason to do such-and-such," not, "This emotion proves that I should do such-and-such." A key problem with emotion-based moral theories is that they fail to make sense of the fact that moral obligations sometimes require us to ignore the emotions at play. Going back to Plato, the passions are not primary; they should not constitute the charioteer. They are secondary, and as such can be well-formed or malformed.

Edit: I actually think subjectivism is a cultural phenomenon, deriving from the you-can't-tell-me-what-to-do culture. Peter Simpson has a nice excursus on this in his, “On Doing Wrong, Modern-Style,” in Vices, Virtues, and Consequences. Subjectivist claims are not meant to be "binding upon oneself and others" (). Instead they are rooted in a defensive posture which wishes to safeguard personal autonomy. Emotion-based claims dovetail well with this, for they are not binding on anyone, and therefore infringe on personal autonomy in no way at all. But my initial point holds, for what is at stake is more of a teenager's attitude than an ethical theory. Of course, as Simpson points out, there is one traditional moral proposition present in the you-can't-tell-me-what-to-do attitude, namely the absolute prohibition against autonomy infringement.

- If you want to start a thread on abortion or the epistemology of moral obligation or intractable disagreement then you should go do that; I'm not biting on the derailment.

Thanks for the correction. So a subjectivist must be cognitivist. I didn't understand that. — Moliere

I don't know that you deviated from cognitivism. You spoke of "a cognitive expression of feeling," which is a bit opaque but still prima facie cognitive. My point was that whether we are talking about subjectivism (cognitivism) or emotivism (non-cognitivism), they both seem to fail for the same reason.

EDIT: Oh, regarding the end -- what makes feelings inadequate? And what if they aren't justifiers so much as truth-makers? — Moliere

I don't think they are truth-makers either. I just don't see how feelings confer moral obligations. I think the burden of proof is on the person who claims that their mere feelings establish moral obligations of some kind.

...so goes it that the sentiments make moral propositions true. — Moliere

Are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you actually believe that feelings can make moral propositions true? I mean, I don't usually say, "I wonder if I have an obligation to do such-and-such? Let me check in with Moliere's feelings to know for sure..." :razz:

Responding to the messiness of natural language, he/we’ve gone on to develop the quantificational apparatus and the ability to speak Logicalese, which really does clear up some of the mess, quite often. But it leaves us with puzzles too, like this one about whether quantifier variance is a coherent idea. — J

I would say that natural language always takes precedence over artificial languages which derive from natural language, and that trying to grant an artificial language autonomy seems to go hand in hand with positivism. Whenever we move from natural language to an artificial language we must be mindful of what is happening, along with the limitations inherent in any artificial language.

This would be the pro-QV position... — J

No, I actually don't think so. As is happening at various points in this thread, you are jumping to an extreme. I think you are under the spell of a pseudo-exhaustive dichotomy (false dilemma), "Either quantification is perfectly univocal, or else QV holds." This is the standard dichotomy of univocity positions, but if we spin things around then it seems obvious that both options are false, and therefore there must be a third option. The key is to discover this third option, this tertium quid. For Aristotle the mean between univocal and equivocal predication is called "pros hen" predication; and by the time of Aquinas it was developed and called "analogical" predication. Cf. SEP.

fdrake's post deftly exorcises both sides of the false dilemma:

That is what you see in practice though. There are no modal operators in propositional logic. But both modal and propositional logic are great. Their semantics also differ considerably. When you write the possibility and necessity symbols in a modal logic, you quantify over possible worlds. When you write them in a quantified modal logic, you quantify over worlds, and there's also quantification within worlds in the usual logic way.

Those quantifiers are introduced differently, and as the paper "Quantifier Variance Dissolved" notes that provides a strong argument for a form quantifier variance without a reduction of quantifier meaning to underlying entity type it quantifies over, and without committing yourself to the claim that there's a whole bunch of equally correct logics for the purposes of ontology. — fdrake

Your claim that "Ǝ never actually changes its meaning" is refuted by the simple fact that there are different forms of quantification available in different kinds of logic; thus falls the first, univocal horn of the dilemma. We are well aware of the problems with the second, equivocal horn of the dilemma (unrestricted QV). He points to the paper for evidence that an unproblematic variety of "quantifier variance" is possible ("variance" is to my mind a poor choice of word for the theory, for what is truly at stake is incommensurable variance or equivocation). In Medieval terms the unproblematic variety would be an instance of analogy, where the semantic relation between various forms of quantification is one of analogy. Wittgenstein's notion of "family resemblance" is perhaps not too far off the mark, although I cannot speak to that notion with any expertise.

Edit: For a quick lesson in how quickly logicians become confused when they try to talk about natural language, see section "4. Ontological Pluralism," of Quantifier Variance Dissolved. There is some frightful confusion occurring there. What is happening? Logicians are treating natural language as if it were logical. Note, too, that one of the primary formal differences between natural language and logical languages is that the former includes analogical predication whereas the latter does not. Because of this the authors are not able to truly entertain the view they pretend to be considering, namely the view of ontological pluralism whereby there are "different ways of existing." Such an analogical claim is not representable in logic. This failure plagues their examples and argumentation. Wherever there can be found a border between natural and logical language these incommensurability problems arise, such as the border separating existence and quantification. This is the Achilles heel of analytic philosophy writ large. Logic is a two-edged sword, a tool like an exceedingly fine pencil that can be used to do marvelous, detailed work, but is incompetent in other, more broad-ranging matters. This is why some are apt to criticize analytic philosophy for being skilled at saying relatively unimportant things with exceptional precision. Aristotle was aware of all of this, along with the fact that substantial inferences are usually not perfectly sound, and that perfectly sound inferences are usually insubstantial. A work which combines enough strict demonstration to arrive at substantial conclusions without boring or losing the reader is very rare.

Glad to hear you say that. I'm not innovating here, I think, just trying to connect the dots. — Srap Tasmaner

Sure. :up:

I get that. I'm using "mathematics" pretty broadly. What I have in mind is the mathematical impulse, the attempt to understand things by schematizing them, abstracting, simplifying, modeling. A musical scale is such an abstraction, for example, and "mathematical" in the sense I mean.

You're right, of course, that as commonly used the phrase "mathematical logic" is just a branch of mathematics, but to me logic is very much a product of the mathematical impulse, as when Aristotle abstracts away the content of arguments and looks only at their form -- and then follows up by classifying those forms! And we end up with the square of opposition, which is a blatantly mathematical structure. You see what I mean, I'm sure. — Srap Tasmaner

Okay, I understand. I tend to follow Aristotle and Aquinas, and for them the intellect or the reason deals with form (as opposed to matter); thus any kind of intellectual operation will deal with "abstracted" forms (e.g. shape, color, number, etc.). This is all the more true when it comes to discursive reason (and logic). Mathematics deals with one kind of form, namely number or quantity, and this is a very stark and useful form as far as pedagogy is concerned, but the intellect is able to handle all sorts of non-mathematical forms as well. So I don't know that we disagree very much, but I would want to say that mathematics is logical or rational rather than saying that logic or reason are mathematical.

Beyond that, I am wary of the mathematization of reason insofar as our technological age has a heavy predilection for mathematics. In other words, I think we have a bias in favor of math, given our modern Baconian desire to shape and control nature.

But I still say the foundation here is mathematical because with the brain we're really talking about prediction, and thus probability. The brain is a prediction engine that is constantly recalibrating. It instantiates a machine for calculating probabilities. The "following from" here is neural activity, which is messy and complicated, but has effects that are in principle measurable, and whose functioning itself is parametrized (concentration of ions and neurotransmitters, number of incoming connections and their level of excitation, distance to be covered by transmission, and so on). — Srap Tasmaner

Okay. I am not a physicalist and you will never hear me talk about the brain in these ways, but I don't really want to get into those things. I think that if one were to grant the premise that the human being is basically a kind of survival-oriented prediction machine, then a kind of Kantianism and pragmatism does follow, and human reason (and logic) will then be understood in this same light. Yet what I said earlier about faith is also relevant here, for I think that the reduction of the human mind or soul to logical-mathematical functions of this kind is "pidgeonholing" or "hamstringing." At the very least I think one should be open to the possibility that the human mind is able to engage in other, less pragmatic activities. (I get the sense that your understanding of mathematics is pragmatic, and that you would not be inclined to simply contemplate mathematical Forms with Plato.)

But his just thinking that doesn't get you there, to my mind. He was mistaken -- only because he was too early, really... — Srap Tasmaner

Perhaps, but I don't know that he has to be. I'd say that Hume's constant conjunction and the probability theories that tread similar ground are intellectually problematic insofar as they pre-pave a meta-rut for cognitive bias. For instance, we are now prone to mistake anthropological habits for natural probabilities. For example, one could look at our contemporary world and conclude that the human mind is inherently (and reductively) "mathematical" and technological, but I would contend that the evidence at hand is not a result of natural probability, and is instead a result of choices we have made, individually and collectively. Similarly, one might have grown up in Bavaria and have drawn the conclusion that all humans do, and always have, preferred Weizenbier. A wider scope would demonstrate that the preference for Weizenbier is conditioned, and is a human habit flowing from free choice and circumstance. When reason is reduced to constant conjunction or probability repeated decisions become self-justifying, and the distinction between knowledge and opinion dissolves.

You seem to be dragging me into the actual topic... — Srap Tasmaner

Hopefully. But I've said too much, and you are returning just as I am leaving, as I am planning to take a hiatus from TPF. Hopefully this doesn't draw me in too far. :grimace:

- As long as it is meant to binding then it fulfills the necessary condition I set out—a necessary condition which subjectivism and emotivism do not meet. Prohibitions against abortion are the same kind of propositions as prohibitions against murder. To say more would be to go beyond the scope of this thread and the argument at hand, and to move into a discussion of your personal political positions, which is probably what you are aiming at.

I think the easier rejoinder might be to let go of one or the other belief, if they agree with the argument, but redefine Moral Subjectivism in a palatable way -- for instance, a Moral Subjectivist will often say that it's not beliefs about the Moral Proposition which make it true, but our sentiments which make it true -- there's not a cognitive justification so much as a cognitive expression of feeling. What makes "One ought not murder the innocent" true is that when a person says

(1) "One ought not murder the innocent",

that statements means

(2) "I feel like murdering the innocent is abhorrent" — Moliere

According to Wikipedia ethical subjectivism is cognitive-propositional, and I have found this to be the case among self-professed subjectivists. I don't think you are disputing this even though your thesis draws near to emotivism, but here is the problem I see with subjectivism and emotivism:

1. Moral propositions are (meant to be) binding upon oneself and others
2. Subjectivist and emotivist propositions are in no way binding upon oneself and others
3. Therefore, subjectivist and emotivist propositions are not moral propositions

(I.e. Subjectivism and emotivism are therefore not moral theories, because they fail to achieve normativity.)

"I feel like murdering is abhorrent" (subjectivism) and "Boo murder!" (emotivism) are in no way binding on others, and they are arguably not even binding on oneself. Feelings do not seem to be adequate to justify moral propositions. Going back to the OP, I would say that it is not only beliefs that are inadequate to justify moral propositions, but that feelings are also inadequate.

Why would moral theories be required to answer this question? I think most moral theories simply do not answer the question at all. — Leontiskos

But why are they required to? If they are objective, they need to answer that question because it is the question that underlies all moral questions. — Philosophim

I see little evidence for such a claim. As a theist I agree that existence is good, but there are non-theological forms of ethics.

How can you claim how one should exist before you can claim that they should exist at all? — Philosophim

Those who take existence as a given can still do ethics.

Wouldn't be the first time, but he was addressing the topic, and I have yet to develop an interest in doing that. — Srap Tasmaner

I was addressing the topic as well, and so your attempt to address my post without addressing the topic would be difficult. If quantification and/or existence is straightforwardly univocal (as some here seem to hold), then it is hard to see how a theory like QV could even be entertained. @fdrake managed to "save the appearances" in both directions, so to speak.

Still agree? — Srap Tasmaner

Quickly, not quite. I do acknowledge that mathematics is a paradigm of logical thinking, and that Plato was heavily influenced by it, but I don't think logic is inherently mathematical, I don't think "mathematics is good at treating of [everything]," and I don't think mathematical logic is necessarily the epitome of logic. In fact at my university mathematical logic was very much acknowledged to be but one kind of logic, and I think this is correct. As someone who has formally studied computational logic, mathematical logic, and philosophical logic, I see no reason to universally privilege mathematical logic.

If we want to see this we need look no further than to one of Plato's direct successors, Aristotle. Aristotle is the father of formal logic, and his logic seems to have more to do with knowledge, biology, and classification ("substance") than with mathematics. In particular, as a scientist Aristotle would begin to develop systematic ways of thinking about non-necessary properties of real objects (proper accidents, accidents, etc.). Aristotle was more interested in representing the way the human mind draws conclusions than adhering to an a priori mathematical paradigm, and I think this makes for a much stronger logic. I think one could pick out mathematical logicians and philosophers throughout history (Plato, Descartes, Leibniz, right up to contemporaries like Frege), but to reduce logic to mathematics (or to privilege the mathematical paradigm as primary) would be to overlook lots of other, more natural-scientific thinkers along the lines of Aristotle. I don't think a priori mathematization is ever more plausible than Aristotle's a posteriori approach.

Do as you like, I just don't see the point. We can talk about existence all we like without dragging quantifiers into it, — Srap Tasmaner

The question here is different. It is the question of whether we can speak about quantifier variance without talking about notions of existence.

It's a funny thing. This is all Quine's fault, as I noted. "To be is to be the value of a bound variable" comes out as a deflationary slogan, but what we was really arguing for was a particular version of univocity: the idea was that if you quantify over it, you're committed to it existing, and he meant "existing" with the ordinary everyday meaning; what he was arguing against was giving some special twilight status to "theoretical entities". If your model quantifies over quarks, say, then your model says quarks are real things, and it's no good saying they're just artifacts of the model or something. --- The reason this is amusing is that all these decades later the consensus of neuroscientists and cognitive psychologists, so far as I can tell, is that absolutely everything we attribute existence to in the ordinary everyday sense -- medium-sized dry goods included -- is an "artifact of the model" or a "theoretical entity", so the threat to univocity Quine was addressing never actually existed, if only because the everyday meaning of "exist", the one Quine wanted to stick with, is in fact the "twilight" meaning he wanted to tamp down. And so it goes. — Srap Tasmaner

Interesting, but this seems to prove the point insofar as Quine's notion of existence (and quantification) differs from the approach of neuroscience. Here enters again the questions of the OP.

That's the gist, or part of a gist, of my view. — Srap Tasmaner

It is a common view these days. I will leave my objections for another day. :wink:

b. This leaves two answers to the question, "Should there be existence?". They are, "Yes", or "No". — Philosophim

Why would moral theories be required to answer this question? I think most moral theories simply do not answer the question at all.

- Okay good, it sounds like we are on the same page, or at least the same chapter.

I mean, of course they implicate it, in the exact sense that they presuppose it -- but they don't have anything to say about it. Rather like the status that "truth" has in logic ... (Existence being not a real predicate, and in any given language neither is "... is true" -- need the metalanguage for that.)

What's asserted in an existentially quantified formula is not really, say, "Rabbits exist," but the more mundane "Some of the things (at least one) that exist are rabbits." Or "Not all of the things that exist aren't rabbits," etc. — Srap Tasmaner

I may be reading between the lines of the OP, but here is what I see. I see a question about intractable philosophical disagreements and the possible answer of “quantifier variance.” That at least in some cases the culprit is a notion of quantification that is not shared between the two parties. Now if quantifier variance is occurring—superable or insuperable—then the existential quantifier is doing more than presupposing a univocal notion of existence. Or, if you like, the two secretly competing meanings of existential quantification are each “presupposing” a different notion of existence, and this is the cause of the disagreement. Thus arises the very difficult question of how to adjudicate two different notions of existence, and this is the point of mine to which you initially objected. ...Regarding metalanguage, my earlier contention was that language shapes metalanguage, and does not merely presuppose it. There are no metalanguage-neutral languages, and logicians are prone to miss this.

I actually think 's post may be most instructive and fruitful.

Also I always think it's worth rememembering that Frege's quantifiers, and the rest of classical logic so many of us know and love, was not designed as an all-purpose logic at all, but was what was needed to formalize mathematics. It's got some very rough edges when applied more broadly, about which there's endless debate, but it runs like a champ on its home turf. — Srap Tasmaner

Yes, and this is an important way that the logic reflects the commitments or intentions of its creators. It is not logic qua logic; it is logic qua mathematics.

---

- :up: I should say that while debates about universals—mathematical or otherwise—are interesting, I don’t want to enter that fray given my time constraints. It’s also one of those mountains that requires preparation and gumption—not something I would want to do impromptu. :smile:

I don't think quantifiers have much of anything to do with existence or being or any of that. They're entirely about predication -- classification, categories, concepts. Quantifiers are about what things are, not that they are. — Srap Tasmaner

I would say that the logic will inevitably be applied to real things, at which point the logical domain must grapple with mapping itself to an existent domain. I actually find it odd to hear you say that quantifiers do not implicate existence (real or imagined).

A belief about a proposition cannot make it true or false (e.g., "aliens exist" cannot be made true or false relative to any belief formulated about it); but a proposition can be made true or false relative to a belief which it is about. — Bob Ross

:up:

This is pretty clearly a case in which one language has in its domain a thing which is a compound of this pencil and your left ear, and the other does not. — Banno

I don't see any argument being presented for why this example must be a matter of domain and not quantification, and if this is right then you are begging the question. The example is intended to suggest the opposite conclusion, for the only linguistic difference pertains to quantificational terms. It should of course also be remembered that any quantification difference will also result in large or small domain differences (and as noted above, the meaning of quantification is conditioned by one's ontological domain, just as one's ontological domain is conditioned by quantification).

- I don't want to get embroiled in this thread, but a central question is to what extent quantifiers can be rigidly defined. The problem here is that quantification derives from the meaning of 'being' or 'exists', and this is one of the most elusive and foundational concepts, inextricably bound up with one's fundamental intellectual stance. "Being" is not like "apple" in that we can give a relatively straightforward definition and be done with it. Because of this adjudicating QV becomes increasingly difficult, and to stipulate a meaning for quantification is at the same time to make the dependent logic to that extent artificial. This is one of the places where the weaknesses of positivism begin to show.

I would be wary to say that P has its truth relative to a belief; because this would mean that "I believe that aliens exist", P, is true or false depending on if I believe "I believe that aliens exist", P. — Bob Ross

So if we look at these two propositions:

1. "Aliens exist"
2. "I believe that aliens exist" — Leontiskos

I would say that the veracity of (2) is relative to my belief regarding the existence of aliens, and the veracity of (1) is not relative to that belief. Namely, if I believe (1) then (2) is true, and if I do not believe (1) then (2) is false. It seems to me that this "relativity to belief" is one of the primary differences between (1) and (2). Crucially, I want to say that if a proposition is not relative to beliefs or dependent upon beliefs, then we do not need to examine any beliefs in order to assess the veracity of that proposition. Because we do need to examine beliefs in order to assess the veracity of (2), it must therefore be relative to beliefs. Yet one does not need to examine beliefs in order to assess a moral proposition.

I completely agree with your assessment, and I think you understand what I am trying to convey. — Bob Ross

:up:

However, to be fair, I see how C1 was worded in a way that did provide the ambiguity necessary to birth this dispute; so I just re-worded it in the OP to better reflect what I am saying (and what I am not saying). — Bob Ross

Fair enough. I will say that an attentive reader of P1 would have been able to understand C1, because P1 is clear about the self-same identity of the two propositions, and the meaning of C1 derives from P1.

I would say: "that you believe that aliens exist, is not a belief about the proposition: that "I believe that aliens exist" is not dependent on what we believe about it, so you have failed to demonstrate what belief makes the proposition true or false." — Bob Ross

See:

P: "I believe that aliens exist"
P2: "I believe that I believe that aliens exist"

I would say that the truth of P is relative to a belief, namely my belief regarding aliens. However, I think you are right in saying that it is not necessarily relative to the belief expressed by P2. — Leontiskos

More simply:

1. "Aliens exist"
2. "I believe that aliens exist" — Leontiskos

(2) is a proposition about a belief about proposition (1). (2) is not a proposition about a belief about proposition (2). You and Michael seem to have been talking past one another on this point for the entire thread. I think you have the better part of this sub-argument, because Michael's point does not interact with C1 of your OP (although it does pretend to interact with it). On the other hand, C1 would have been more accurately written, "Therefore, a belief about the a proposition cannot make a that proposition true or false." The question is about whether a belief about (1) can make (1) true or false, not whether a belief about (1) can make (2) true or false. More generally, C1 asks whether a belief about a proposition can make that same proposition true or false.

The main point is that even though some propositions depend on beliefs, ethical propositions such as <Do not torture babies> do not depend on beliefs, and are therefore not made true or false in virtue of a belief. — Leontiskos

Does logical structure entail ontological commitments about things like grounding, “simples,” existence, Ǝx, and other tools of the trade? — J

Yes. (I actually think that the illusion that quantifiers are straightforwardly univocal is a deep problem in contemporary logic)

I was asked to comment on this discussion, which is getting away from the OP. As to the OP I would say that the problem of quantifier equivocation is significant but not insuperable. For those with a "low" epistemology ("ontology is beyond our pay grade!") it will appear insuperable, but for them it will always come down to a putative overreach of human inquiry. A form of positivism is also lurking here insofar as the presumption is that we can somehow scientifically or logically demonstrate the truth or falsity of QV, which seems to me a false assumption. Public demonstration is a limited epistemic tool which will not measure up to the task at hand.

About the only discussion I'm aware of that elucidates this distinction (albeit in relation to universals rather than number per se) is in Russell's Problems of Philosophy — Wayfarer

There is a longstanding dispute over the univocity of being (and predication) between the Thomists and the Scotists beginning in the Medieval period. The Scotists held to univocity (and Heidegger's first dissertation was on this topic, on a text then believed to be Duns Scotus').

What's more, there are, or have been, human languages -- and thus functioning human communities to speak them -- that only have "1, 2, many". So language doesn't directly lead to mathematics more advanced than crows and infants possess, even if it enables it (as it does, you know, everything). — Srap Tasmaner

This is a good point, and points to the fact that "what we do" is presupposing ontological commitments, just as varieties of logic do.

I don't see how an account that is social practice or activity "all the way down," is going to work. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Agreed. I think it reflects a "hermeneutic of despair," in the sense that the logical positivists and their progeny are saying something like, "It's not ideal, but it's the best we're capable of." Besides, no one disagrees that mathematics is something we do. That it is something we do does not answer the question which asks what is involved in mathematics.

In Plato these levels or kinds of knowledge were distinguished per the Analogy of the Divided Line . Those distinctions are what have been forgotten, abandoned or lost in the intervening millenia due to the dominance of nominalism and empiricism. — Wayfarer

I would want to slice the pie between epistemic optimists and epistemic pessimists, so to speak. The former believe that the human intellect has access to deeper levels of reality, whereas the latter do not. This is probably the biggest difference between you and Banno. The English-speaking tradition tends to fall in with the latter, especially in the secular sphere. Thinkers like Husserl and Heidegger are much more aligned with the former, at least in a relative contemporary sense. The differences are also strongly influenced by anthropology and, in due turn, experience. Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Heidegger, etc., are spiritual thinkers with a higher human anthropology. The difference between such thinkers and a Russell or even a Wittgenstein is that Russell hamstrings himself into a low anthropology, and this has the effect of limiting his epistemology and horizon. To be blunt, someone who lives their whole life with their head stuck in the sand will naturally come to the conclusion that only sand exists, and that Plato's divided line is a naive fiction. The difference is faith. One must have faith that something more than sand exists if they are ever to find anything other than sand. Without faith one hamstrings themselves and artificially truncates the horizon of knowledge and reality.

Intellectual naivete is, to my mind, a form of idolatry. Namely, it absolutizes the relative. The project of the logical positivists is a paradigm example of this idolatry. They absolutized one form of logic, assumed that it was associated with no controversial ontological commitments, and fell into all manner of folly. They made a nifty hammer and then assumed that everything was a nail. Students of philosophy should be wary of thinkers of this sort. They should begin with Plato and only descend to Russell if they feel the need. This is difficult because our inherited anthropology and epistemology is now very low, very technocratic. In any case, a general rule of thumb is that most intellectual perspectives or vantage points are not unconditioned. To take the example of the OP: quantifier meaning is not unconditioned by ontological commitments.

There's an incentive to come up with a logical, well-reasoned argument even though it's bullshit. Which further complicates explaining what morality is. There are too many social and political influences at play. We can't tell what's real or just convenient - too much "fake data", if you like. — Judaka

Given what you say here, I'm not sure how you would be able to engage the arguments of the OP. Beyond that, my time is getting short, so let's stop there. Take care.

I believe you are correct about this way of stating the interrelationship between incontinence and axiology. — Shawn

Okay. :up:

Yet, the hierarchy of values is, what I suppose, a function of the nous performing this decision, as Plato would have defined it. So, what would you say about such an idea? — Shawn

I think you are thinking about axiology as the means to the highest good. For Plato philosophy is the means to The Good. Yet I think Plato would say that The Good is the highest good, not philosophy. As you say:

That's why, I am led to believe that axiology must be one of the highest goods, to a philosopher or even a layman. — Shawn

I agree that it is one of the highest goods, just as Plato would agree that philosophy is one of the highest goods. But I do not agree that it is the highest good.

Yes, well, what a impoverished world to value things only materialistically with a unit of exchange to do so, such as money. — Shawn

There is a secondary question beyond the idea that axiology is a means to an end, and it relates to akrasia. For the modern mind if one knows the highest good then they will necessarily choose it, and therefore axiology assumes a preeminent place. For the ancient mind to intellectually know the highest good does not mean that one will necessarily be capable of choosing it and adhering to it, and because of this axiology becomes more subsidiary. In that case the proper ordering of desires becomes a central end of education (in the broad sense).