Thoughts on this?

The north is being used as a Petri dish.
The surge a month ago was fuelled by schools and universities going back, so now the increases will be reducing due to partial lockdowns. The trouble is that the infection rate is so high that test and trace has become ineffective as the numbers are unmanageable.

The real estate bubble in the UK is due to a systemic failure of government, Although it was the privelidged classes who benefited from it, I don't think it was this which provided the driving force behind it. It was ideological, the Tory government continually dismantling state institutions and support, and inviting in capitalist organisations to fill the gap. The Tory wet dream of free market capitalism. During the same period there were incentives brought in to increase home ownership allowing council tenants to buy the property they were living in. This fuelled the trend further. The council properties were not replaced with provision of new social housing. The property developers continually focussed on building the highest value properties in the most desirable locations with little affordable housing.

I could go on, but that is enough detail to spell out that the UK is in a dangerous place, trying to hold this bubble in place. If it blows all that wealth built up over 40 years will evaporate, with mass evictions, repossessions and millions of people with massive debts that they can't pay. No wonder the Tory's are running scarred and lurching to the right in a vein attempt to double down on their rip roaring capitalism. They have filled Downing Street with headless chickens running around the cabinet table, lashing out at Europe, immigrants and the poor. Roll on Brexit Britain.

Lockdowns are spreading across Europe as the virus surges today. Infection in Czechoslovakia is very high at the moment, with similar levels to Wisconsin in the US, which is probably the hottest spot in the world at the moment. I heard on the news tonight that 1 in 4 are infected there.

The UK is going to try to weather the storm without a national lockdown, somehow I doubt it. I expect a sudden U turn in a week or two which is the modus operandi of our government these days.

So if that philosophical distinction is rejected, both in whole and in part, then what are we left with? I think ordinary language serves us just fine here.

Perhaps the point, the whole point of this world is to be a vehicle for experience.

Nobody is going to win here...we are all losers in this one.

That sort of complacency will let the commies in.

Or in other words, it's ok to chop your own head off in a world without commies, but not in one where they lie in wait.

If by understanding that we will "discover how to live intelligently and supremely" then we've been living intelligently and supremely for quite some time now.

Surely the goal is, by hook, or by crook, to live a rounded, benevolent, congenial life, enhanced with at least a little service to thy fellow man. For humanity as a whole, to improve the human world and experience until some kind of heaven on Earth is realised.

As for Krishnamurti, I agree, along with Theosophy in general. I am more concerned with the message itself, rather than the messenger.

Life is for all, and there is no elite, no aspiration, in this practice. What is important here is to notice how one seeks to imagine the result, rather than practice the practice.

Quite, I was, perhaps clumsily, saying that of those who seek Nirvana, only those who are ready will realise it. Also that some folk can't be doing with such practice.

Nice thread. My first thoughts are that this is about practice informed by contemplation. That it is a good starting point for this practice. That the two systems, the Hindu and the catholic are compatible, I know this through personal experience. But that the aspirant can only go as far as his/her body is capable at their stage of development. Or that it is only for some people who are that way inclined.

Dominic Cummings is Davros, the leader of the Darleks.

I hear you, but I'm not so confident that they engage in any joined up thinking.

One would think that the Tory's would want to keep their older voters alive to keep voting for them. But that relies on some kind of normal political balance, like what we have experienced over the last generation. In reality, I suggest, the Tory's are grappling with an existential crisis, in which they can see the younger vote abandoning them and their reliable voter base inexorably dying off. Resulting in their only hope of survival as a political force requiring them to veer hard to the right and hope to convince the population that that place is normality, while the left are communist lunatics. This course relies on a healthy economy. It is of course doomed to failure, now.

I'm not happy about a virus. I'm also not overly worried. People should relax, newsmedia should stop scaring old people, and the experts should just do their thing.

You don't seem to have much understanding of humanity. After all we are primates with a complex social and economic structure with a long history of warfare, exploitation, poverty, genocide etc etc. All that is required to upset the relative equilibrium we have enjoyed over the last 70 years, in the West at least, is something like a global pandemic.

There is an acute tension developing between healthcare objectives and economic objectives in many countries. Both are experiencing great loses, with catastrophe just around the corner. Those sitting on great wealth, or in ivory towers will be getting worried to the extent that they will stop caring about the vulnerable and the old.

There are rumours going around the UK that the government is secretly happy that many thousands of old people will die, saving a great deal of expenditure in health and social care, as a vast social care crisis was looming before Covid, due to a population with to many old people.

The debt bubble could fracture at any time now, as the economy feels like it is on a rollercoaster with no controls.

Are you going to bury your head in the sand, or remember what humans are like when the pips squeak?

The virus seemed to be spreading unimpeded across parts of the UK for a while until about a week ago. With a few cities and counties having up to 1,000 confirmed cases per 100,000 of the population. It was doubling about every 2 weeks. Now the chaotic government has introduced some localised lockdowns, it is doubling about every 4 weeks in the worst places. Already the numbers are to high for test and trace to be effective. Scotland and Wales now have full national lockdowns, but England is not going down that route as there are a number of politicians in the governing party who insist that there should be no lockdowns and that the people should just use their common sense and live with it. This is exerting pressure on the government causing more dither. We are like a boat without a rudder at the moment.

It will up to you to consider what you read if it is spiritual, material or else.

Thanks for the link, I am a fellow traveler looking for an answer to these questions.

I would like to add something for you to consider.

Firstly, it is relevant to view humanity as a whole, we are a colony, each independent on the population for our survival and sociolo-cultural development. I will go further and suggest that in a sense, humanity is one organism, indeed the whole of the biosphere is one organism. So you can't consider yourself in isolation, if you are considering reality.

Secondly, the purpose that can be deduced from the world we find ourselves in is simply for humanity to sustain the biosphere in a healthy state in the short term and in the long term, to secure its long term survival in the universe at large. Any other purposes, of our being here can then work themselves out during this plan.

I can't shake that feeling that you are talking in a Peter Sellers, Nazzi accent, it would so suit your manner of reasoning.

What I try saying is that it is enough for me to know how I came here without losing my time in discovering the start and the end of the world existence and life.

But the explanation you give, via science, is not how you came to be here, it is merely the mechanism by which you body came to be constituted. We really don't know how we came to be here. Or, we really don't know how the universe we perceive, came to be here.

For what purpose?
— Punshhh

I thought I already gave the different thoughts about it on my first post!

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't know any purposes for which we came to be here. One of your thoughts might be correct, or the real purpose might be something else entirely, we just don't know.

You do seem to be looking for some kind of spiritual purpose, or is it more that that makes more sense for you?

I'll elaborate, the answer to the question ought to be contingent on the answer to these two questions;

How did we come to be here?
And
For what purpose?

In the absence of this information, it is difficult to answer your question.

We are entirely in the dark on the issue.

We either have a good idea about what is going on or not.

Quite, and how will you know?

It is just like a novel that includes you but compares your point of view with a baseline of the real that does not care what you think.

Yes and when it comes to the esoteric, science, academic knowledge etc is also in the dark.

It is important not to be a fool in this regard.

Quite, not an easy thing to avoid.

I like what you say about testing the logic through introspection, I do that too. What I was thinking of was a kind of contemplation in which you are distinguishing knowing through the body, consciousness and being, from the thinking mind, ego and personality. Once you are good at this and see the distinction clearly, you can start to inform one from the other and develop a more subtle understanding of yourself, the world and your place in it. Perhaps, this is wisdom.

Finally

Agreed.

Both Christmas's are going to fall over the precipice. It's a slow motion car crash. I'll get out my Tom Waites albums, (Clue, The Piano has been drinking)

A Downing st spokesman has said this evening, that the talks are over.

Assuming he ever was seriously seeking a deal.

Quite, I do think he wanted a deal, but only on unreasonable terms. He always wanted to have his cake and eat it. So it's just as likely that he has been signalling to the EU that he doesn't want a deal in his actions. Namely breaking the commitments in the withdrawal agreement and spaffing any trust there was up the wall. By now the EU will regard him as an entirely unreliable, if not duplicitous negotiating partner.

Johnson has said now that we are heading for an "Australia deal", code for no deal. It might be a handfisted attempt at brinkmanship, but sounds more like he is drifting away from seriously seeking a deal.

There are a number of approaches, a good start is to develop an affinity with animals, through a pet for example. Animals are free of a thinking mind, so use knowledge of and provided by the body. St Francis of Assisi is a good example of this. Or meditation and studying eastern philosophy and religion can work quite well. Bypassing the mind is implicit in these philosophies. The practice of yoga in combination with meditation can help one to develop the energy flows and chackras in the body in a way in which you are conscious of it. There are other techniques, but air am short of time today.

That is interesting, please elaborate.

Well, a person (a being) is not just a mind, they are also a body and a consciousness within that body. So each being knows their body, their life and the world their body inhabits through their body and its consciousness. The thinking mind is something different from this knowledge and there is a tendency in the modern world to believe that we are thinking minds with a nature defined by the intellectual knowledge and conditioning that our thinking mind receives from society. In this the innate knowing of our being is marginalised, even not seen, that we are blind to it.

The problem I see is with consent
— Punshhh

whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
— Goering

And that ended well for him.

↪Punshhh
I think these views have a lot to contribute to philosophy, but I have mentioned the esoteric traditions on a couple of other threads. I am not going to be put off by a couple of negative responses I got because I think an open mind is what is needed.

I agree and I have tried that too, but not with much success. Western philosophy is derived from the classical tradition, it seems with logic and analytical thought and ideas from a different source don't easily mesh with it.

For example, I occasionally say that one can know things indipendent of one's own mind. It just doesn't compute around here.

Cool! Do you do cartoons?

Yes, although these days only when a politician makes me mad.

The only alternative to philosophy is myth, when it comes to the mind.

Of course, even then we have biases based on our life experiences and personal inclinations. But, hopefully, the more aware we can be of our biases, the more thorough we can become in the process of searching for underlying truths.

I would add the caveat that these truths are restricted to what we are able to consider from our limited perspective as animals with a recently emerged intelligence. The truths about existence and any purposes being carried out through our being here are beyond our grasp. This is why some folk turn to religion, spirituality or mysticism to address these issues. Philosophy is to an extent mute on these paths. I am not saying that these truths are necessarily beyond our understanding, but that they are veiled from us and were they to be shown to us, we might understand perfectly well. Madame Blavatsky and Djwal khul, the source of Alice Bailey's writings give an esoteric route to an understanding, although such ideas cannot be analysed philosophically as to any truths therein. So it's up the the reader to decide whether it is worth studying.

Interestingly there is a technology which has been lost, or at least the skills to practice it. The ability to work stone as the stone masons did when the pyramids were built. A skill which was also practiced by the Inca's. There have been many attempts to replicate such work in recent times, all failed. Even now with our most advanced laser technology we can only just come close to the accuracy.
Inca stonework Cuzco



The Sphinx Egypt


Note the layout of the stone, proof that both civilisations were practicing the same technology.

Yes, although there is a demographic pattern. The population's that were hit first time round had people often travelling abroad and bringing it back, also the cities which these people travelled to. Now we have populations who don't travel abroad much (Indian subcontinent excepted), but live in high density and socialise in homes. Also the student population between 18-30 years has been a strong driver through the pub and bar industry and halls of residence.

You could find the middle way.

Its feeling more serious this time. Many nurses and doctors are still exhausted from the first wave. They were already over worked before Covid, often working up to 5 twelve hour shifts per week, while on low pay.

There is real worry about the economy, a lot of businesses which scraped through last time are going to go to the wall and government support is less and patchy. The government really doesn't want to go to a national lockdown, because it will probably bankrupt the country, but they may have to within a few weeks.

Many areas in the north have been locked down more today, as there is a lot of bad feeling and distrust about the way the privelidged south is forgetting about the north. The voters in the north who leant their vote to Johnson are very angry now.

Fortunately I am in a low risk area with low population density, with plenty of work. But it's difficult to avoid some worry.

A hot topic, I suppose. Also social media is starting to ban more.

The pandemic is coming back with a vengeance in the UK, a number of towns and cities in the north of the country have over 600, or 700 confirmed cases per 100,000 of their population. It is now spreading south across the country like a wave. Track and trace is barely working and the hospitals in the north are at full Covid capacity. I've heard that similar spikes are happening across Europe now, with Spain and France quite bad.

People. with the same income as earlier, can now afford buying a more expensive house.

Yes, although it has gone a stage further, the housing market is like a ladder as you sell your small house, you buy a larger one because you have the profit from the last house, and then a bigger one after that. Until perhaps the gain is more than you would earn in a lifetimes salary. Also, if you inherit a valuable house which your benefactor bought when prices were really low, you get a foot up onto the ladder. This alongside an ideological decision by successive Tory Governments to stop building social housing 40 years ago and rely on the private house builders to provide the neede housing has exacerbated the problem further. As you say the population has grown by a few million, largely from the new EU accession states since 2004. This issue has been one of the drivers for the Brexit vote.

The elites didn't let the bubble burst during the financial crisis and they are desperately trying to let it correct even now. That is the actual policy. We have to remember, that the interest rates are at an all time low in written history now

Yes, we now have a perfect storm on the horizon.

I see a system set up to create asset inflation, which then creates huge wealth inequality. This should be obvious from the fact that when we have a global depression, the S&P 500 is at an all time high now.

Yes, add this to mass consumerism creating wage slaves, then we're there.

The asset inflation is a big deal in the UK at the moment, as I pointed out in the Brexit thread. It is done through property in the UK. The housing stock has not kept up with demand for over 40 years, resulting in house price inflation. This results in the middle classes and the rich reaping the rewards. Many areas have seen over 1000% increase in value over the period.

Unfortunately we are now in the predicament that this is a bubble just as we are descending into a depression caused by Covid and Brexit. It will shake things up a bit though. The wealthy are worried, the poor aren't that bothered because they haven't got much to lose. Those who don't own property (who missed out on the benefits of the inflation) are not that worried. The people in the middle (a large group), who are not wealthy, but do own a house, are in big trouble. And of course, the rich will be laughing all the way to the bank.

The latter would in fact uphold the former in a far more effective way.

Perhaps a pernicious creeping fascism would work. The problem I see is with consent, it will have to be done in a way that the people think they are freely giving their consent. I can see it happening as an internal thing going on within the minds of individual citizens.