You are a good person. I can see that. I don’t mean to sound like I am attacking anyone else, except maybe when I am atracking all of us, me included (if “attack” is even the right word). — Fire Ologist

Thank goodness! I was wondering what in hell went wrong with a great discussion. I will get back to you as soon as I can. I think I have a broken foot, and I just learned that an urgent care place can X-ray my foot. I hope to get this done before washing dishes for a huge holiday crowd at a community center. If I don't get back soon, give me a holler.

Whoo, those were some pretty strong words. I hope you keep sharing because I would like to know more. I dropped my interest in communism when I learned they "liberated" women with a campaign to make everyone think women should be working. You know, like in the US when stay-at-home homemakers became "just housewives". I think we should be free to self-actualize and I also think the most important thing women can do is be good homemakers and community volunteers.

When the USSR liberated women, the economy grew as more people were in the workforce. So did the abortion and divorce rate grow, and women were not doing as well as men because they became single parents and did not have the support of men with wives. I love talking about this and hope if you do reply it is respectful and not hostile.

I want greater awareness of the negative consequences of not valuing homemakers. Also, I posted the history of capitalism and an explanation of the commons. There is so much we can talk about. Not only did divorce and abortion increase in the US, but so did the number of women and children involved in crime increase, for female victims and perpetrators but the cost of housing greatly increased because now families had two incomes and more people could buy housing, and boy, are we in a banking and housing mess now.

Bottom line, giving women the freedom of barbarians may not be the best move for civilization, and I don't think anyone failing the value full-time homemakers is thinking about what is good for humanity.

He was banned 3 years ago. — Tom Storm

-Interesting. Perhaps we should ignore that this is an old thread? @"Mikie reactivated the thread by replying to @Moliere, whose last post was 2 years ago, I think?

I like Mikie's posted video explaining capitalism, and I went from that explanation to another one.



There is hardly anything more important to think about than capitalism, and whether it is time to change how we manage it.

This ‘impersonal’ aspect of markets is what makes it different to say, gift economies, where gifts might be exchanged in order to keep up good relations between tribes. Or else different to relations of patronage or villeange, in which labour or goods are exchanged for protection or use of land. — Streetlight

Very interesting subject. I have a question. In the systems of patronage or villeange, what would prevent exploiting others? I think I see in your thread the difference between good and evil.

t is at this point, where the general mode of production becomes geared towards the market, that capitalism proper can be said to come into being. And this, ultimately is the difference in kind between markets and capitalism — Streetlight

I wonder how communism fits into your understanding of capitalism.

I don't think the philosophical mind raises the question of evil, because the philosophical mind recognize that "evil" is a made up concept, unconsciously invented to cope with the lack of knowledge of the things that hurt us. — Christoffer

That is agreeable. I have a question. Do the world's spiritual people have the same understanding of evil as the three God of Abraham religions? For those who are spiritual, the snake represents all that is good, including wisdom and transformation for the good. However, in the mythology of the God of Abraham the snake is evil.

Until we embrace the spiritual point of view, is it possible for us to see the snake differently?

The White man is the savage and the Indian is morally superior. The White man has subverted the truth, twisted it around and inflated his ego. While all he’s doing is ruthlessly exploiting and destroying nature for his own selfish ends.
Wherever we encounter indigenous peoples they all say the same thing, They revere their environment and seek to live in harmony with it. They respect their environment and natural balance and inherent wisdom of the animals and plants they live alongside. — Punshhh

Okay, we have agreement. I hope someday we all become spiritual and care for our planet and each other. That would be so much better than what is happening now. I no longer recognize the US as I remember it, and I fear that if we can not correct the problems before my generation dies, our democracy built on virtues will be lost.

I don't think we could get much more evil than we are now. I don't believe our wars have been wars against evil, but were wars for control of world resources and a wealthy banking system. We are capable of so much, and some people have very good hearts, but I don't think these are the people in control right now. We are in a period of transition with no guarantee of our future being a Garden of Eden New Age, a time of high tech and peace, and the end of tyranny.

Where we are most severely mistaken is in our singling out of the cat as individual and the mouse as same. They are not selves. We construct that pronoun, again, as a function of that process. That's the same error which causes us to judge our own species as inherently evil, or selfishness as permeating nature. — ENOAH

:chin: As I read your post, and the relationship of the cat and mouse, I began thinking of all the different stories about animals making special packs with humans, such as the buffalo giving its life so the people can meet their needs, in exchange for humans honoring the buffalo, or whichever animal is the main source of food. This comes up around the world because, obviously, humans felt bad about killing to eat. They needed a story to make killing okay.

I don't know how stupid white men came along and slaughtered animals for the fun of it. :chin: I never thought of this before. How could it be that some groups of people are more evil than others? They kill and destroy with no conscience, making them aware of their evil. How can that be? Why is the savage the better spiritual human being than the White man who comes with a gun and believes he is morally superior, and he needs to teach the savage about being saved and being moral? Is this justice of a god? Strange.

ENOAH
977
If we're, by nature, evil (or, even sinful, violent, hostile or aggressive), why do we express it with contempt, as though we ought not be? Or why would we raise that as a topic to debate, if it was, like hunger, our nature? — ENOAH

Can you imagine life without a concept of evil? The bible presents evil as some kind of spirit that affects our lives and requires us to be saved by a god, to be free of evil, and even escape the evil of death by having immortality if we are pleasing to god.

However, what do we do differently from the animals? Whether animals mate for life or mate for one day is determined by the animal's survival needs, and we don't get excited if a female or male animal has other unions that result in having offspring. We accept their sexuality as their nature. But boy, can we get a little crazy about our sexuality?

Our behaviors are regulated by hormones, just as is so for all other animals. Many animals are social animals, mothers nurse their young, and the young learn their place in their social group.

So are animals also evil and in need of being saved? :lol: Before a lion lies down with the sheep and eats grass alongside the sheep, it will need a whole efferent set of teeth.

ICE are just doing what we all hired them to do. — Fire Ologist

We did not hire ICE to shoot people in the leg. In fact, some states what ICE to stay out and respect state sovereignty. Shooting people in the leg is against the law, and if our young people in ICE follow orders that should not be made, they can be charged with a crime. Trump's brutality was on display many years ago....

Esper: Trump asked about shooting protesters

NPR
https://www.npr.org › 2022/05/09 › trump-esper-book-...
May 9, 2022 — Former Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper said President Donald Trump inquired about shooting protesters amid the unrest that took place after George Floyd's ...
Donald Trump 'suggested shooting migrants in the legs'

BBC
https://www.bbc.com › world-us-canada-49901878
Oct 2, 2019 — He pushed aides towards extreme methods of deterring crossings at the southern border, a book says.

That is against the law, and so we come to arguing about if ICE and the Gestapo are that different. Forcing someone into the public nude, is wrong. Traumatizing children is wrong. What is the problem causing nice and civilized people to not see the wrong? How is this different from what happened in Germany?

If we focus on history, philosophy, and the concerns some people have today, the discussion could be much more interesting the pointing out my faults. :lol:

I want to expand the understanding of the gestapo problem. I can't use AI, but I hope I can link to it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hitler+and+the+gestapo&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS990US990&oq=Hitler+and+the+gestapo&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRiPAjIHCAIQIRiPAjIHCAMQIRiPAtIBCTEwMzUwajBqN6gCCLACAfEFwzIOWqMQGCLxBcMyDlqjEBgi&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The words that jump out at me are "without legal constraint". And "placing the secret police outside the traditional state and judicial oversight." I think that can be effectively done by firing everyone who disagrees with a leader, and putting in people who are 100% pleasing to the leader and are also unfit for the job. Like they are not opposed to the leader because they know enough to have good judgment.

Does anyone want to argue that Trump is not ruling as though he is above the law, and that he is not protecting his power by taking down everyone who opposes him? Is there any doubt he incited the attempt to take over the Capitol Building, and that he pardoned everyone found guilty of a crime and serving time that he could?

For some of us, the Athenian system of getting rid of tyrants was an important part of defending democracy.

The creation of the institution of ostracism, whereby the people decided collectively whether to banish a single citizen for ten years, provided not only a mechanism for the symbolic expression of democratic power, but also a means for the practical and ideological distinction between oligarchic and democratic rule. https://online.ucpress.edu/ca/article-abstract/19/2/232/25458/Exile-Ostracism-and-the-Athenian-Democracy?redirectedFrom=fulltext

A discussion of the difference between an oligarchic and democratic rule could be interesting.

Then don’t call them Gestapo to make some political point. Would you say “Gestapo!” to their spouses and children? As they leave in the morning to go off to work? — Fire Ologist

Would you please address the issues instead of attacking me? Here is a presentation of the Gestapo issue. Know I am passionate about the wrongs that have led up to this moment in history, and my thoughts on this subject come from knowledge of the history of education. My grandmother defended democracy in the classroom. My mother sang for USO shows, and my father dealt with the piles of bodies in the death camps. If you want to argue the issues fine, but I expect you to do that respectfully and with honor for all those who died defending our democracy.


What the military oath of enlistment says about legal and ...

ABC News
https://abcnews.go.com › Politics › story
4 days ago — The call from Democratic veterans in Congress highlights the federal law that dictates the conduct of members of the military.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pentagon-launching-review-democratic-sen-mark-kelly/story?id=127827953

They showed a madman and warned: "Don't be like him."
B.B. shows a madman and whispers: "Be like him, only smarter—and everything will be fine." — Astorre

Wow, I like your reply!

1. The majority of screen time in such "masterpieces" is dedicated to the aestheticization and heroization of the sinner; the moral justification of atrocities. — Astorre

I think this is very much a part of our human nature. We have a long-standing fascination with criminals, especially the old western outlaws. Some of them are very charismatic. AI gives an excellent explanation of this and a possible difference between what attracts a man to an outlaw versus what attracts a woman. The woman is more apt to have romantic notions. While the man may be attracted to the ability to get whatever one wants. I both enjoy the idea of escaping their boring lives.

However, I would like to point out that a person does not need a college education to make meth. The recipe is out there, and any thug can get it. Lye is used for cleaning drains, and it is one of the ingredients for meth. We might be attracted to the man making meth to support his family. But let us hope he is not cooking it at home because of the high risks of fire, explosions, and exposure to hazardous fumes. TIf the home is a rental, the owner of the home stands to lose it because it will be declared uninhabitable, and the owner will have to hire experts to clean the house and then test it to prove it is safe. May I suggest that the average meth manufacturer is not attractive to anyone who knows the reality? I am not sure of the morality of making this person attractive, but at least you said the show dealt with some of the drawbacks of getting caught up in a drama that takes on a life of its own.

Back to criminals we love, I think Robin Hood is a favorite, dating back to the 14th century. Bank robbers and the mafia have been loved for their Robin Hood behaviors. While law-abiding bankers have been hated.

ICE are just doing what we all hired them to do. — Fire Ologist

So was the Gestapo just following orders. There are some good stories and movies coming out of that time in history. A fiction movie I really like is "The Reader". A woman who can not read is accused of a war crime. She could have proven she was not guilty but she was too ashamed to let people know she couldn't read so she kept that hidden. She became a good Nazi because that was the only way to get a good job. She obeyed orders without question because, like most Germans, she believed that her nation was in the right and a good nation, just as Americans believe in America. Also, she had no reason to question until a young man began reading to her and exposed her to a classical education. While this is fiction it is based on facts of the nature of things in that time in history, and I think we are in big trouble now because of replacing our education with the German model of education for technology.
We are now technologically smart but not wise.

There are important points here. Number 1, I do not see America as better than Germany. Humans are only human, and they want to believe their nation or their tribe is the best. We welcome news that makes us feel good and makes us think we are doing the right thing, and a small backward nation on the other side of the world is a threat to the US and must be bombed, destroying the lives of millions of people. Or so the Germans believed, and so do the Russians today.

If you all want to throw tomatoes at me for what I am saying, go ahead. So were the Germans only following orders, and what ICE is doing is not better than the Gestapo? We made it law so people opposed to war are not forced to fight in them. Vietnam and the following wars were wrong. Men and women are coming home from these wars traumatized and sometimes committing suicide in part because what they had to do was immoral.

I am not saying we should ignore immigration laws. I am saying we should be decent human beings and treat everyone decently. NEVER, EVER SHOULD CHILDREN BE TRAUMATIZED. NEVER SHOULD A HUMAN BEING BE HUMILATED BY FORCING THEM TO BE NUDE IN PUBLIC. LOOK AT OUR MORALS, AND WHEN ORDERS VIOLATE MORALITY, THAT IS A PROBLEM TO BE CORRECTED. The behavior of ICE is worthy of a country run by thugs, not a civilized nation. And for crying out loud, the US is not the only country with an immigration problem. This is a global problem, and it will require a global solution.

Who remembers the Peace Corps? John Kennedy was a wonderful leader, and I would do all in my power to get another leader like him.

I do? I spoke of the shallowness of identity politics. — Fire Ologist

Yes, generalizing, categorizing, and the framework of prejudice are coping skills that become essential when the population is so large that we become strangers.

AI first goes into panic about "prejudice", but eventually explains how it improves our survival. What is important here is recognizing our limits and the need to get real about them, instead of denying our limits and beating ourselves and others up for not being better human beings.

The reality of unnaturally large populations makes prejudice necessary not only to protect ourselves, but also to conserve energy. Our brains do many things to help us conserve energy.

The way to cope with prejudice is by learning good manners and taking responsibility for acting on them. This is something @AmadeusD refuses to do, so I chose to avoid him. Rules greatly improve how we live on this planet with far more people than we can possibly know.
1. We respect everyone. It doesn't matter if the other is the mayor of a bum, or looks different.
2. We protect the dignity of others. (That is why social security is based on age, not need).
3. We do everything with integrity.
With those rules, what can go wrong?

The left. The not-‘MAGA’. (MAGA, that pejorative expression that helps “progressives” own the fascist/authoritarian haters). Maybe “wokeness” triggers a shut-down of communication, but so does just saying MAGA is the easy example of “not-thinking”. (Although it didn’t shut me down apparently.) — Fire Ologist

I had to do a lot of work to track down an apparent disagreement about ICE. I don't know which side you think is the right one. :groan: We shouldn't have sides in the first place because now we have an argument against sides rather than the issues. It was Trump who created MAGA. Somehow this is tangled up with "that pejorative expression that helps 'progressives' own the fascist/authoritarian haters".

Anyway, it appears you were the one who brought up fascist/authoritarian, which today is expressed through ICE, but in the past, it was the German Gestapo. Our rule by law is being shredded, and that puts the democracy of the US in as much danger as the Germans were when Hilter and his chosen people consolidated power in their hands, making it possible for the Gestapo to have poorly restricted power. This leds to terrible things being done to people who lost all legal protections.

I don't know, do we agree or disagree on this?

Yes, native and indigenous peoples knew the importance of living in harmony and balance with their ecosystem. We can learn a lot from them. — Punshhh

Our public broadcasting station is doing many shows about native Americans, and usually their spirituality is brought up as a driving force for them. For them, we are in a spiritual battle to save the very life of our planet. I don't think that spirituality goes well with our major religions. What do you think?

I give everyone I like total respect and expect it back. If i get disrespected that person is off the team. I only have people in my life that bring joy and interest. — Malcolm Parry

I think your decision is socially important because of the effect of social pressure. It is our nature to want to be accepted, so unless we are mentally disturbed, we choose to conform to social expectations. It only makes sense to choose to bring joy and interest into our lives, ignoring people who are not considerate.

A leader who advocates for shooting people who are defending the US Constitution and makes our justice system a sad joke, is something I never thought we would see. I am so reminded of the Greek notion that a bad person can not do good things, and if by chance a good thing does happen when a bad person is in charge, that is just a fluke. I used to think the Greeks were wrong about that, but today I think their way of thinking could be right.

I also wonder about the people who follow a bad leader and what that might have to do with the fall of civilizations. United we stand, divided we fall. I don't think nations that achieve great things are also divided nations.

That’s interesting and worth thinking about. I think that is why everyone accuses the other side of being a cult. We can’t imagine these broad groups actually are full of real people. A broad group like “maga” or “socialists” is a shallow box. Individual, actual people, are deep and too complex for such gross generalizations. But we get to feel better than millions of people if we allow ourselves to hate these groups. Viewing them as sheep in a cult lets us not look past the shallow boxes at the real people. — Fire Ologist

You speak of coping skills that are necessary because we are limited and have pushed way beyond our limits. Our brains and energy levels are being overtaxed. Desmond Morris, a zoologist, explains the problem in his book "The Naked Ape".

Religion isn’t opposed to science. It can be if you want. But science doesn’t know very much either. And morality is an utter mess. Religion of sorts goes all the way back to the beginning of human history. Religion is literally what you make of it. It can be, and has been, a force for good. Like science can be, and has been, but is often wrong, and can be used to make life worse for many. — Fire Ologist

Here, I think we need to be more specific. The belief that a God made a man from mud and a woman from his rib, goes against science, and what good can come out of anything that is that far from science?
This involves morals and justice, so it really matters to me.

I would like to discuss socialist and capitalist and your objection to classifying people and generalizing discriptions of " what those people do". Maybe if I say the capitalists are the immoral people and the socialists are the moral people, you can see what is wrong with those generalizations. You generalize and find fault with groups of people but defend the actions of the German Gestapo and that is worrisome.

I feel sorry for the people used by ICE and those sent to war. Recently, the moral crisis faced by military personnel has come up in public discussion. I am sure the moral crisis also comes with ICE.

↪Athena we should think about the ecosystem and how we can protect and live alongside it. — Punshhh

I like that idea. Our public broadcasting channel is doing shows about native Americans and their understanding of spiritual reality and our relationship with it and the earth. It gives me happiness to think of the Native American point of view and attempt to be spiritually woke.

I would argue that MAGA conservatism is only the most conspicuous example of not thinking because of the complicity of the major media and the conquests of leftist ideology since the 1960s. The left has successfully made the caricature of the white conservative common knowledge. The media says MAGA uses “alternative facts" and anti-intellectualism, and is anti-science. But an honest look at what conservatives say, and think, and do, and care about, is not what the media portrays. — Fire Ologist

That is an awesome statement. Our media has become our worst enemy, and it is my understanding that one of the most powerful media owners is not a US citizen. Freedom of speech is a good thing, but it also needs to be held accountable. We have sensationalized our news stories and forgotten or at least ignore our values.

In a small tribe, morals will be kept because people know each other, and the well-being of the tribe is important to everyone. When the tribe is millions of people, everyone becomes anonymous, and the well-being of a group this large does not impress our consciousness with the same personalness as a small tribe.

Religions made unnaturally large populations possible, but I don't understand how they can be maintained with modern science. The religions do not share the same beliefs, and that weakens them. Nationalism also makes large populations possible, but we can see now that we should not take nationalism for granted. When civilizations face hard times, they turn on each other. Being amoral is not a good thing.

There’s an element of what I am trying to say that is tribal for sure. But there is a more raw tribalism that properly arises closer to home, like in your house and your town and your city, and then there is a different kind of tribalism that incorporates the broad differences between nations like England and Germany. America is a good example of the two types of tribalism. In America, there is a real difference between a tribe from Alabama and a tribe from Montana and a tribe from San Diego, but all of them have the sense of being American, because being American is more ideological, or better, cultural, in nature. America itself is cross-tribal, by nature. We are many different peoples, who together form a nation unlike Britain, which is unlike Portugal. — Fire Ologist

You worded that very well. I had not thought the thought of tribal differences, that is not just a difference of people in different places, but also a difference of quality, such as you said, the difference between tribes and being American, which can also be tribal. When I was a kid, the school said we should ask our parents what we were, expecting us to name a European country. My mother got indignant and said we are American, 57 different varieties. :lol: But I always wanted to be an Indian and was horrified when I learned how badly we treated native Americans.

I love all our differences like I love a field full of different colored flowers. I love that my city celebrates the Day of the Dead from Mexico, and we have an annual Asian Festival that used to represent all flavors of Asians, but now is down to a Japanese celebration because the people who started the celebration got old like me and can't do what they once did. That is a sad loss to our community.

But when the Brit (of any color) seeks to save Britain from becoming France or Afghanistan, when he or she seeks to save British culture, he only looks like a racist Brit because he is white. This means the white British man becomes the worst representative of the British culture. Today, because of leftism and immigration, that apparent racism of white British men makes the whole British culture look unjustifiable and not worth saving. It even justifies actively changing the culture of “England”, turning England into a piece of land only, and no longer a culture. So it’s mixed with age old tribalism, but it’s a broad cultural landscape (called England or France) at stake. — Fire Ologist

Are you aware of the divide in the US and a fight for what it means to be a good American and decent human being? Not since our Civil War have we been so divided. Daily, the horrors of ICE are in the news, along with the actions of those who oppose ICE. ICE is behaving as badly as Germany's Gestapo. I am wondering if the US will exist for another 100 years. I don't think it can if it does not come to peace with itself. Too many US citizens do not seem to know that Mexicans owned the land north of the river that divides us. We have a treaty with Mexico that was supposed to protect the rights of former Mexicans, who did not cross the border, but the border crossed them. It seems to me this matter of citizenship is as old as ancient times and was tied up with notions of slavory. A big dividing point between Jews and Christians was notions about who can be one of us, with Judaism being more exclusive than Christianity.

I don't care where a child is born, if the child is educated in the US that child has learned to be American and from there, decisions should be based on the protection of children and family values. Mankind needs to up its moral standing and womankind might help, but the women supporting Trump sadden me very much because maybe womankind will not do better than mankind. Unfortunately, female Christians can be the worst. Whatever, our exclusiveness is a very good subject to discuss. I am glad to know the US is not the only country having a hard time with the instinct to fight for our group and not care about the well-being of all children.

Define what you mean by "lefty wokeness"? AFAIK that pejorative expression invokes another vacuous, right-wing media boogeyman in order to "own the Libs". — 180 Proof

I volunteered in the bookroom at our community center bazaar, and there were a few books about being woke. The understanding of those books was a deeper understanding of oneself, the world, and one's connection to others. They were happy, uplifting books. I just want everyone to know that is possible.

UK, Germany, France, Sweden. All the places white people used to believe it was ok to be British, German, French, Swedish, etc. — Fire Ologist

This statement is not racist but a truth for all humans and has been so from the beginning human time. Today, this tribalism has arisen with indigenous people around the world. Back in the day, there was competition between tribes, and some wanted to be known as "the real people". Some tribes had what we may consider silly rules, such as only people in their tribe could wear their hair in a certain way, identifying them with their tribe.

This is a good subject to discuss. Some of us like to believe we can create a better world, and besides needing science to protect our earth, we need to know normal human desires and behaviors, and the consequences of ignoring knowledge of being human.

There are around 270 million citizens of countries with a king, and this is an international site. Please do not presume that your "we" covers everyone here. — Jamal

Good, you bring up things we should think about.

I do attempt to be inclusive, but was surprised by the Google reply to my question of citizen responsibility in kingdoms. Google says in kingdoms, citizens are expected to do the same things as people in a democracy, and I am unsure how well this works. Right now, it isn't working so well in the US either. I don't think many understand civic duties in the US. Our present president is certainly redefining the powers of the president.

Historically, people have struggled with their governments, but it was my understanding that in a democracy, the mechanisms for change are built in so that change can happen without violence. I think education for technology has left US citizens poorly prepared for peaceful citizen action. If I were in Russia, I don't think I would be so bold about expressing disagreement.

And there’s no reason why you should. From what little I know of you, you are clearly a person of will. That’s a good thing, but it’s not what’s right for me. — T Clark

I love your reply. I also love democracy because it is about our differences and how, together, we make things good.

Strictly speaking, it's a republic, not a democracy. — frank

Strictly speaking, I am female, not a human. :lol:

The Declaration of Independence could also be called a Declaration of Responsibility. Culturally, we have had a democracy with principles to live by, and number 1 is being a responsible citizen. Ideally, our social order is democratic, and I believe our economy and relationships would be better if we replaced our autocratic Industry with the democratic model.

I don't think there can be a republic without a democratic social order.

Curiosity is not frivolous thinking, it is going where your heart leads you. If your heart doesn’t tell you what the right thing to do is, nothing will. Here’s a quote. I use all the time. It’s from Ziporyn’s translation of the Chuang Tzu. — T Clark

I can appreciate that point of view, but I can not accept it for myself. I am realizing something about myself I did not think about before. I am thinking I would not vote for Tzu to be my president, and I would value a man I wanted to be president more than I value a philosopher. It is said, "he turned down a job offer from King Wei of Chu, because he valued his personal freedom," according to Wikipedia. Therefore, the man willing to lead a nation is more important in my framework of human value.

However, we need artists and musicians, and philosophers, but someone better be thinking about our problems and how to resolve them and be willing to take on the responsibility of leadership.

What is said is that American industries were modeled after the US military, whose structure comes from the Prussian military.

The US went through a period of de-industrialization starting in the 1980s. That old military style evolved into something more flexible and, but there are still elements of it to be seen.

And the British have never had an autocracy. — frank

Wow, I thought I was the only one saying the US adopted the Prussian model of bureaucracy and also the is model of education for technology. Who esle is saying that? I hate being alone with the Prussian understanding.

Considering there isn't 100% agreement on what autocracy means, I am sticking my argument about the British being autocratic. This explanation comes from an old book, so maybe our disagreement is because the meaning of the word has changed.

The US begins with a New Social Order. That social order was more idealistic than actualized. The ideal was based on philosophy and the Enlightenment, but the new social order was not for everyone. It was for White property owners, and it was supported by slavery and the exploitation of immigrants desperate for jobs.

Children start to grasp the difference between real and unreal at a fairly early age, don't they? — frank

Around age 8, the child's brian literally changes. The myelin sheath that covers the neurons is completed, and the shutdown of our brains begins. No longer will the child absorb information as they do the previous years. The child will begin judging what is true and what is not true, but this judgment is based on what was learned during the first 8 years. There is no guarantee that there will be a good understanding of reality.

The British have never really had autocracy due to the Magna Carta. — frank

You have chosen of subject worth thinking about, and I am delighted.

Looking at online explanations of autocracy, I see there is disagreement. One source said there are 3 forms of autocracy, dictatorships, monarchies, and dominant-party regimes. I think it is an error to restrict our understanding of autocracy to the organization of the government. Where there is an autocracy, the whole social and economic order would be part of that autocracy. In the US that is supposed to be democratic, the Industries were modeled after Britain's autocracy. We have some understanding of our Industry being autocratic, but our understanding of this is non nonexistent. Would you like to develop this thinking?

You guys copied our federalism. I think you secretly love the USA. — frank

Can we please stop confusing the USA with democracy? The US began with slaves and masters, and the industrial north was even worse regarding the exploitation of humans. I do not know of which federation you refer, but I think we owe much to the Haudenosaunee Confederacy (Iroquois). We owe much to Athens, then Hellenism, and philosophers from that time to the present.

I had a laugh at the idea that the USA doesn't have a king. Those countries with titular kings managed to build limitations in to their political systems, usually for the king to act only on the advice of the parliament. The USA apparently thought that since their king was elected, they could give them more power. It's their undoing. European, and other monarchies, kept the king in a box; the USA actually removed restraint on the executive. — Banno

I long thought Europeans were fortunate to have a relatively long memory of kings and the struggle to gain the power of the people, because without that experience, nor education for democracy, there appears to be no will to be self-governing.

Capitalism based on the British autocracy is not the best way to have democracy.

glad to see you differentiate between economics and reality. — Banno

Interesting comment considering I think colleges fail to teach how to have a useful understanding of economics. Without an understanding of reality, there can be no useful thoughts about economics.

Follow your curiosity. It knows where it’s going—or at least how to get there. — T Clark

What is the value of that? I think we have some serious problems that we need to resolve so our children and our children's children have a chance of having good lives. Being curious about the problems, gathering information, and being creative in resolving the problems, has value, but I am not sure frivolous thinking has much value.

How about Socrates and knowing ourselves and virtues?

AI says philosophy is thinking about existence, knowledge, values, and reality.

I think we need to understand reality, economics, and the best way to accumulate and distribute wealth for an ideal civilization.

How can I think through a thought without breaking my own structure of thinking or undoing my own reasoning? — GreekSkeptic

I don't think I have structured thinking. It is normal for me to think of both sides of an argument, not because I want to, but it just happens. And there is information I just do not comprehend, such as advanced math and government forms. One of the most important things for us to know is how to build a sustainable economy in a world of finite resources. I don't see a lot of practical thinking. We had coins that had value because of the metals in them, and have shifted to valueless coins, and amazingly, no one seems aware of why that matters.

I think for most people, emotions determine what they think, not logic based on accumulated information.

I don't claim to have all the answers either - just the right ones. :cool: — unenlightened

:lol: And when I am sure my writing is inspired by God, it is really disappointing the next day, to realize I was deluded.

Attempts to assimilate Native Americans in the US caused great suffering, and today we have to deal with that. On the other hand, the determination to maintain racial separation between dark and light skin colored people has also caused serious problems.

Unfortunately, I can not use AI that explains several ways philosophy has been used to understand the behaviors, problems, and resolutions. I don't feel a need to think on this too much because the democratic principle of equality and my grandmother's three rules are enough for me. Beginning with, we respect everyone. We protect the dignity of others, and we do everything with integrity. This is what supposedly separates humans from apes.

Our morality is in question, and capitalism, based on dominating and exploiting others, should get our attention. Should affirmative action and reparations be considered? Can we imagine a more moral world and act on that?

In some countries, education through college is free or at least far more affordable than a college education in the US. The way out of poverty is education. However, next to ignorance is the bad of elitist education that justifies inequality and contributes to the moral problems, such as dominating and exploiting others.

The problem is that the robot slave is always someone's robot slave. Therefore it is not the robot slave who "pays" you to study, go on vacation, etc. It is the owner of the robot slave who effectively "pays" you to [do nothing, especially productive]. — Leontiskos

It is my understanding that when civilizations had money, their governments put a tax on the property that was the source of income. Associating a machine with a human slave seems excessive. A machine is not a human, and I think it makes sense to tax them, as we have a history of taxing the source of income. As we replace tax-paying citizens with machines, we need to adjust.

When I was in high school, and a liberal education (starting when a child is 6) was replaced with education for technology, a teacher who explained this change in the purpose of education, told us to prepare for a time when we would not work 40-hour weeks because our labor would not be needed.
The obvious is happening, and we seem to be blind to it. We aren't making any progress in adjusting to a radically changed reality. How intelligent is that? :brow:

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