So are the poor sods they are supposed to be helping! Perhaps they are not overwhelmed with heavy workloads but overwhelmed by their unfair circumstances. I absolutely agree, that there are many good people working in the social care system but there are many f***wits as well! There is no question that they are over worked, under paid and way under-resourced and the real culprits are the politicians in power. The pressure must come from the people who must move 'en masse' to pressure those in power and demand significant improvement to the social care system, on threat of removal from power. — universeness

Like I just said to Jack Cummins, how did things get so bad! I swear before the pandemic, I could call my Senior and Disability Services case worker and she answered her phone and in 5 minutes the problem would be resolved. Now no one answers the phone and calls are not returned in a timely manner. When I studied public policy and administration at the U of O it was said when someone is having a problem keeping up with the demands of a job, hire another person. Now the focus has shifted from getting the job done to cutting costs.

We were lucky and got a great doctor who has a great social worker and she is aware of the phone problem and will use her position of being inside the system to get the Senior and Disability Services to do what should have been done two weeks ago. In the meantime we are taking steps to add the gentleman to my renter's contract and the division of housing assistance has okayed him staying in my home so I am no longer in danger of losing my own housing, However, this may be turning into more of a commitment than I wanted to make. I thought this was going to be a temporary situation. My apartment is too small for me and it sure is not enough space for two people over a long period of time.

What can I say but this has been a learning experience and EVERYONE is helping me think through what I will say to the state legislature when there will be a public hearing after the beginning of the next year. The only thing I feel sure about is these people should not be left on the streets to fend for themselves!!! We must not allow the neglect of our children and challenged people and the elderly. Yes, we have many services and assistance programs but they are overwhelmed and the needs are not being met. On the good side, I have been allowed to help him without fear of eviction and in the beginning, I didn't think that was possible.

Now my concern has shifted from fear of eviction to a question of how long will this last. He likes Fox News and the 700 Club and I can't stand those shows. My computer is right next to the TV and he sleeps on the floor in the living room. I am trying to think of a way of rearranging my home so I can stay in my bedroom and he can do his thing in the living room. I hate waking him in the morning by getting on my computer and then he turns on the TV and talks to me and I can't focus on the forum. Perhaps I am spoiled because of having a home all to myself. Around the world, people live with so much less and perhaps I should work on being the person I want to be instead of being discontent with a situation I made happen.

A socialist? I advocated for the homeless in the 80's to get homeless people out of my home and here I am again.

Similar to words I typed previously, one set of hands, held out, opened and pushed forwards can do little to protect individuals from a cold blowing wind but if many other hands joined you then things can get better. It's very old but it's still very true..... UNITED, WE STAND! DIVIDED, WE FALL! — universeness

Yes, together we can do more and we can create a better reality and that is what democracy is about. Hum, what philosophers might I read to have a better understanding of working together?

↪Athena
I am so sorry to hear that you are possibly facing eviction and I am danger of being evicted too. The circumstances of my own is that the landlord where I am has left the country. I didn't know that he was subletting from an agency, and he had not been paying the rent to them recently. The real owner wishes to have the house back and, originally we were all meant to move in August but are still there paying rent. I am looking for accommodation on a daily basis and it is so hard to find anything apart from shabby overpriced tiny rooms from rogue landlords, who don't even give proper tenancy contracts. At the beginning I was confident about finding somewhere but have been panicking more in the last couple of weeks.

It is rather ironic that both of us who were writing about your concern about a man at the beginning of the thread are fearing eviction and potential homelessness. My general feeling is that life has become much harder in the last few years and, increasingly, people care less about others. So many people are struggling, the gulf between the rich and the poor is increasing and, often, people are being treated as mere numbers.

Anyway, I am trying to keep my inner strength and I hope that you keep strong. I hope that you don't get evicted and I will continue looking for somewhere because I think that the owner and agency will give myself and the others here a certain amount of time to find somewhere. — Jack Cummins

So true and you have experience with people who have cognitive problems! If you and I find the system is going against us, how much worse it must be for people with cognitive problems? You know what to do but people like the person I am helping, do not. We think of those people as the problem, but when we experience the problem ourselves we realize something has gone very wrong. I thought it would be easy to get this man into a rented bedroom because he has an income, but to my horror, bedrooms are hundreds of dollars more than the last time I checked.

It isn't just that we have a housing crisis but dealing with bureaucrats has become much harder. It is like since the pandemic everything has gotten worse.

You keep me aware that this is not just in the US. Did our faith in technology lead us into these problems? Or is the problem overpopulation and real shortages of land and timber to build homes? I think many of us are in shock. Our quality of life seems seriously threatened. What you said about those in control of the rentals is frightening. On top of everything else is worry about being scammed and taken advantage of. We have something called Craigslist and people are claiming to have rentals and are taking people's money for fees when they have no rental but are just cheating people. I swear we did not have this problem before. The shortage of housing has led to people being victimized because they hurry up and pay those fees afraid someone else will get the rental before they do. They are paying without meeting the scammer or seeing the rental.

↪Athena It's as I used to say, messy. All models are wrong. — Agent Smith

I would really like to know what you mean about all models being wrong. Time and again, I am realizing things are the same and not the same. For example, we all want to think we are caring people and for some, that means being socialist and for others, socialism is the great evil. But what are we talking about when we use labels? Many things appear to be different shades of the same thing but we are under the illusion that we have no agreement.

The Greeks didn't have all these labels and they argued about values and truths. Have we created a communication problem that might be resolved?

I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran. — universeness

For sure I hope the women win the fight for their rights. We burned our bras and I am so thankful the danger to us was not as it is for the women of backward countries.

An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose. — universeness

This subject is very frightening because I think the US government has overextended itself. We are reaching our debt limit when war and problems caused by global warming threaten us. At the same time, our economy appears to be spinning out of control. This could be a different subject. For bloody sure, the increase in the minimum wage has not helped anyone as inflation keeps them down. We used to laugh at Russia because we heard many people jam into a home but here we are with people living together in their struggle to survive. As I said above the rules have changed allowing unrelated people to share housing. We must do more for people who need help but I don't know how we can. Things are out of control.

Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power. — universeness

Okay, I tried to communicate to the council on aging that reliance on technology is locking people out of medical care and services. The man I am trying to help is locked out because he can not use a cell phone. I struggle to use a cell phone and with forms and conversations based on specialized jargon. I am having trouble getting blood work done because talking to a robot over the phone is too frustrating! I throw up my hands and think so what if I drop dead? At least then I don't have to deal with the barriers to getting services. I am old. I think this reliance on technology is just rude. It sure makes me feel powerless. The problem is not the technology. I am walking because of medical technology. I love technology but how it is being used can be a problem.

As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.

They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you! — universeness

I would not say their intention is to lock people out, but that is the result. Well, my sister was a bureaucrat and she does not hold a high opinion of government workers who can not relate to those they serve and intentionally ignore phone calls while they socialize with each other. But I think many of them are overwhelmed with heavy workloads. When the bureaucrat I had to speak with finally called back she sounded like a very nice person. We have communication problems that is for sure!!!

Agent Smith — Agent Smith

Deus — Deus

Deus — Deus

I found out things are not exactly as I thought they were. I don't know what to think now but some young people seem to be better than those they are replacing. There is a greater liberalness. When I was finally able to make phone contact with the important people they approved of me adding the gentleman I am helping to my housing. It appears the rules have changed along with people having a more liberal attitude. I would like to know how to research this. Like when did the rules change and what motivated the change? Was it our housing crisis and being overwhelmed with homeless people that lead to rules being changed?

Is the generation that is now taking the jobs more liberal than those before them and are my moral concerns unfounded fear of change? I would love to talk with the ancient Greek philosophers about my moral concerns. But that could be a little contentious. Plato's republic is the model of Utopias that failed, real and fictional ones. I am not the only one suspicious of government having too much power. In the 1830's Tocqueville wrote of Christian democracies becoming despots. There is Orwell and Huxley. And news talks about the popular distrust of government.

But the last couple of days have calmed me down. I am getting what I asked for and I am not sure I want it. :lol: I think I will be meek for a while and consider I may not know enough to be too sure of myself. And thanks for the replies. I wanted to know what the reaction would be because I was not sure of my thinking being good logic. My ego likes the idea of dying for a good cause but that does not make it a good thing to do.

Today I am facing the reality of possibly being evicted. and I am sacred. I am not sure things have come to that, but neighbors have warned me management was investigating. A decision to evict me can be made by people who do not know me and have not spoken with me. Not that long ago we knew each other and we could discuss the rules and if exceptions can be made. This made a huge difference in our moral decisions because we were aware of how we affected each other's lives and we felt for each other. Today feelings have been taken out of the equation. The decisions are totally impersonal. That difference has everything to do with our liberty and morality. Total strangers making decisions that affect our lives as much as an eviction affects a person's life, with no communication and no feelings could be thought of as the biblical beast. I am not Christian, but that the beast is a pretty good analogy of the power over us and how our liberty and personal power are being crushed.

Under that beast, family can not help family because of government-controlled privacy laws. The gentleman I am trying to help has a sister and a cousin who want to help, but privacy law prevents them from speaking for their brother and learning from the bureaucrats if there is any way to help him. We have made laws that destroy the family and make everyone dependent on the government. This is what we defended our democracy against in WWII and then we adopted Germany's model of bureaucracy and education for technology. We are now the mechanical society we defended our democracy against.

So what if people are dying on the streets because they have trouble functioning in today's world.
How is this different from rounding up the Jews and citizens not daring to resist the dictates of the government? I want to stress this is about our relationship with our government, our humanity, and morality and liberty.

I am considering suicide might make my life meaningful if it gets attention to the problem we have created. When I think of all the people who lost their lives defending our democracy and what things have come too, and how their sacfrice means nothing if we do not turn around and reestablish individiual liberty and power.

It is my opinion that hormones and hormone receptors do matter. However, with what we know today our sexuality is not as simple as being this or that. We now think of terms of a spectrum.

Also, some babies are born with atypical genitalia due to a difference in sex development.

This type of difference was once called a “disorder of sex development,” but this term is problematic. In a 2015 surveyTrusted Source, most respondents perceived the term negatively. A further review found that many people do not use it at all, and instead use “intersex.”

Being intersex can mean different things. For example, a person might have genitals or internal sex organs that fall outside of typical binary categories. Or, a person might have a different combination of chromosomes. Some people do not know that they are intersex until they reach puberty.

Biologists have started to discussTrusted Source the idea that sex may be a spectrum. This is not a new concept but one that has taken time to come into the public consciousness. For example, the idea of sex as a spectrum was discussed in a 1993 article published by the New York Academy of Sciences. — Medically reviewed by Emelia Arquilla, DO — By Tim Newman on May 11, 2021

I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next. — universeness

Oh please, I have found you validating and motivating. And this is not like the past. In the past, everything seemed manageable but now the problems have exploded. My community has done so much to resolve homelessness and the problem keeps getting bigger. However, you put me on a good path, of researching and believing I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do.

I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action.

I also may have found a way to help the gentleman. Well, we have made a lot of progress, and doing this has been a learning experience. A huge barrier is communication! Every organization has its own terminology and acronyms and they just assume they are making sense when us outsiders don't have a clue what they are talking about. That is a problem that can be fixed without spending any money. Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful.

I need to ponder if I can do that written information more effectively so every agency has all of it and a person asking for help can have that information from day one. For sure the 2 pages of rentals from 2 years ago, are not useful today and a person has to question if the bureaucrats have a good understanding of reality when they pass out useless information. :lol: You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources.

To my reckoning forced to be immoral is a contradictio in terminis. Coercion negates free will and where there is no freedom, there can be no morality.

Even so, we could bemoan such circumstances - it's stressful to say the least. Any system that puts people in such dilemmas needs to be put under the microscope because the problem won't go away by itself. schopenhauer1 might have a thing or two to say about this from an antinatalist point of view: being forced to play the game of life full of dilemmas/trilemmas/n-lemmas like the one the OP is in is immoral and I'm being as positive as possible when I say that. — Agent Smith

I so much appreciate your posts and I will address the state legislature about the moral dilemma, especially when a mother is evicted for helping an adult child. When our laws go against family values, they are wrong.

I have a 1940 Oregon Family Law book. Back in the day, we held family responsible for family. The responsibility did not end when someone became 18. The responsibility included the extended family and when people did not do the responsible thing of caring for family, the person could be fined. In the past, it was family I had to put on the streets. It is not homosexuals ruining family values, but industry, landlords, and government.

Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here. — universeness

Thank you. I started to do that but on second thought that may not be a good solution unless we first created a nonprofit organization and had a clear plan about what we want and how much it would cost.

My granddaughter is rather annoyed with me for acting as though the person I am trying to help is the most important person, and she has a point. She works at the shelter and deals with the homeless every day. We are experiencing a housing and human crisis. Disabled people get an income of less than $900 a month and just to rent a bedroom is $600 to $700 dollars. That is why they are on the street and there is a lot of them! The man I am trying to help is more physically capable than those who are in wheelchairs. I assume many of the street people also have mental problems. I was not wanting to help everyone, but how just is it for me to try to get my person to the head of the line, in front of everyone else?

It has been almost two weeks and that is the limit most property managers set on having a guest. This is where I stop allowing him to spend the night unless the property manager says it is okay for him to stay longer. He was pretty depressed when he left this morning because he knows he can not depend on me as he depended on a woman who passed away. If he could find another woman who could use some help and has an extra bedroom that would be wonderful. He is limited but he does try to be helpful and he expresses concern for the other person and a lot of appreciation. He is ideal for the right woman.

And this is why I pulled away from working with the homeless. There are just some people I can not stand to leave on the streets, and the only thing I can do is pretend they do not exist. My granddaughter is right. He is just the person who got through my wall of protection by being at the Senior Center and looking like one of "us" not one of "them". It he looked and acted like the other homeless people, I would have avoided him. He got through my wall of denial that what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs.

Agent Smith

nailed in on the head. To cope with some things we must be able to block out the pain.

You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.

15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc. — universeness

Your point is made and now I have to act on it. I have emailed two local programs for people with brain damage. This looks like a good starting point.

I am a little excited because the homeless problem is so complex and huge, that I couldn't find a good resource for homeless people in general, but when this was reworded as a brain problem, there are places to turn. So if I begin with them, perhaps more could be done for those who are homeless because of mental issues. They need extra help because they don't have the cognitive ability to access the help that they are qualified to have.

My sister helps these people in another city. Her people are dying on the streets and we finally have a law to record deaths resulting from homelessness. We are not doing a good job of resolving the problems because we do not have a good understanding of them. There is so much to do. I wish I were thirty and had the energy to do more.

An extraordinary level of delusion is needed to assert this.

But too far off thread. — Banno

Well, I do have thoughts along that line. I could just pray for everyone and make myself feel good without risking anything. Or I could argue why that doesn't work real well. And that IS behind why I started this thread and used the word "moral". It would be great if I could say a prayer and go on my way feeling that I have done all that needs to be done.

In a democracy, our laws and institutions, are based on what we believe and I believe what some people believe is part of the problem. God did not build Noah's ark and maybe He doesn't take care of everything, so we may need to identify problems and hopefully come to a consensus on how to resolve them.

Is it moral to leave disabled people on the streets to die?

Athena: ‘I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values.’

Really?

Athena: ‘You put the rules first…

No. I put you first by providing information I thought may prevent you from becoming homeless.

Human values? Ha! No, I don’t think much about human values at all. These are the values that allow people, even very ill people to live in the streets.

Think about the 10 Commandments outside of their connection to religion. If everyone lived by only these 10 “rules” no one would be living in the streets. — ArielAssante

I like my grandmother's 3 rules better.

1. We respect everyone. It makes no difference if the other is a bum or the mayor because it is about our character. We are respectful people or we are not.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

3. We do everything with integrity

I just pulled a virtue card. Out of 52 virtues I pulled Generosity.

"Generosity is giving and sharing. It is giving freely because you want to, not with the idea of receiving a reward or a gift in return. Generosity is a quality of the spirit. It is an awareness that there is plenty for everyone. It is seeing an opportunity to share what you have and then giving just for the oy of giving. Generosity is one of the best ways to show love.

Signs of Success

I am practicing generosity when I...

Am thoughtful about the needs of others.
Notice when someone needs help.
Give freely without holding back.
Am willing to make sacrifices for others.
Use wisdom about sharing treasured belongings."

Ah ha, That last one could mean it is not wise for me to have someone in my home when that could lead to a problem for me.

Not that I'm a psychologist, but methinks the brain blocks out the pain & evil in the world, locks it all up in a special place, deep in our subconscious in order to stay sane. I have used antivirus software and there's this feature called quarantine which is kinda like a prison where malware are isolated so that they can't do damage to the computer. Same applies to dangerous memes and our brains - imagine if we were ever to feel all the pain & evil extant in our world; it would overwhelm us completely. It would be a chain reaction of suffering, no one would be happy and that's the worst-case scenario, oui? That outta the way, I'd say there's no pleasure that ain't in some way guilty and we're all culpable if it were a crime to turn a blind eye to the suffering of other people. Confiteor, mea culpa. — Agent Smith

You are onto something. We must not blame the bureaucrats for not doing their job because their jobs involve so much pain they can not survive them without the ability to turn off awareness of the pain. People become social workers thinking they want to help others, which means they feel the pain day after day until one day, it is gone. I knew a man who gave up being a police officer when he was called into one more child abuse case. He felt nothing and he did not want to be someone who could deal with child abuse and feel nothing, so he stopped being a police officer.

I have a 94-year-old Senior Companion cleint who was a case worker. She was given the most difficult mental cases. For the first year she could not sleep because she could not feel at peace with the reality of people's struggles. She considered quitting but finally, she did what you describe. She learned to put it in a box. I have to put the challenge of helping the man I am helping in a box so each day I am there 100% for my Senior Companion clients.

I am so aware of turning a blind eye to the suffering of others. I do feel guilty when I pretend someone
in need is not there. We have many beggars on our streets so this happens daily. To survive I just have to limit the people I engage with. That is why I become politically active from time to time. There is so much unmet human need out there that charitable organizations are not enough. Only the government is large enough organization to manage the problem, and the problem is increasing daily like global warming. This is overpopulation and I so regret religions that argue against the things we can do for birth control.

The network of folk with disabilities in which I'm involved has grown over the last few years to include folk from outside Australia. One of the things that has shocked and disgusted me is the realisation of how disjointed and inadequate the support given folk with disabilities in the United States is.

It's no use to anyone if you are evicted. At some point you may have to ask your guest to leave, so that you can continue to support him. That is not an immoral act on your part, nor an act of expediency, but simply the best thing to do. You are in a better position to provide help if you maintain your own circumstances.

A strategy that has proven useful here is to be open about one's circumstances, to the point of informing local, state and federal services and politicians, and lobby groups. The absurdity of your situation can serve to draw out the best in service providers, but also making sure that they are aware they are being watched and evaluated and that their responses will be known tends to focus them on their duties.

For better or worse you are an advocate for folk with acquired brain injuries, and for folk with disabilities in general. Get in touch with other advocates, find out what they have done in the past and what has worked and what hasn't.

Basically you need to network. — Banno

I am soo thankful for your understanding and help. What is happening is not what I expected. All the simple fixes are not working. I thought I could immediately get him into the shelter program, then I remembered they put people on the floor and he can not get up and down without a chair to lean on and chairs are not allowed. He is a nice person but to my surprise a nice person with a brain injury worse than a stroke. This very nice, well-dressed, social person can flip out in two seconds. That is, his good behavior is dependent on his environment and that means he will not do well standing in a line of homeless people with no social skills and who do not fit his idea of what a person should be. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. The problem is much worse than I thought it was. Because of the brain damage, his good behavior in the Senior Center, is very different from when he saw a man made up like a woman at a fast food place. A line of troubled people such as the ones where he might get help, make him flee like a person running out of a burning building. He does not see himself as one of them and can not tolerate being in the same space with them. I stress, we are talking about brain damage here. He can not be rational but reacts without thinking.

He becomes very tired in the afternoon and falls asleep, and there is no place where he can do this, unless we get him into a place for special needs people. This is not about willfulness. The stroke leads to a fatigue problem that is different from being tired and able to push through the feeling of tiredness. All of this means the shelters for most of the homeless will not work for him. I have volunteered in the winter shelters and they are horrifying. I have watched people struggle in wheelchairs, and people walk out into the snow with open sandals, trench foot is a common problem and can lead to amputations. My sister and I have seen terrible things and it takes very special people who can deal with it. I can not. I thought the man I am helping was an easy case.

If he could use a cell phone he never would have been in my home because then I could contact him for appointments. As we try to work through the system, we are using my cell phone and a helping agency for his mailing address. Can you believe this, you say someone is homeless and they ask for his phone number and address!

We most certainly have an organizational problem! To my horror, yesterday's interview was not the last stop to getting help. I don't know why but we are waiting for a second phone interview. I work and the chances of him and I being together when they call is very small. The young woman who interviewed us did not seem to know enough to help us. And it took a week of phone calls and finally going into the office to get that interview.

How are things organized where you are? We are not organized and we don't even seem to have a good understanding of what homeless means. I don't think most know how frustrating this is. It is so wrong to expect the people who seriously need help to get through the system. Even with experience and college education, trying to get through the system is extremely difficult. I would give up if I was doing this for myself.

As to the personal dilemma. This is a matter which can only be solved in your own heart. No external principle or moral law will be sufficient. Being honest with yourself is key. People with strong impulses to help others are often fulfilling something inside themselves that is totally unrelated to the people they and others think are being helped. And going to extremes can be a symptom of it. Not suggesting this is true for you. Only you could know. — ArielAssante

I hear what you are saying. However, as I learn more, I wish my path had not crossed with his. I thought this was going to be a quick fix. As I just explained to Pantagruel, this is not going to be a quick fix. On the other hand, it is a darn good thing I did step in because important steps have been taken that could not have happened if I had not stepped in.

However now I think I have to take things to the political level. I don't know how we can do it but we seriously need safe shelters for disabled people. Homelessness kills many people every year and the elderly are especially at risk. We have people in wheelchairs and people with cancer and people brain issues living and dying on the streets. It is not just bums and druggies out of there. What kind of civilization ignores the needy?

When the Nasis started taking away the Jews citizens ignored what was happening. We are ignoring what is happening too. I am sure your concern about the rules surely comes down to human values. You put the rules first and I think we should put human values first. How might I better bridge with those who put the rules first?

I would hope to have the courage to continue to offer my support (in your place) and achieve the best outcome before suffering personal setback, but I can't honestly say I would do. I am glad there are people like you in the world, it is undoubtedly a better place because. If I were the person deciding to evict you I certainly wouldn't do that, even if that meant problems for me. Could you dialog with your housing agency to try and pre-empt that problem? — Pantagruel

I am pushing it and figure when two weeks is up I will have to speak with the property manager. I can now prove my intentions and progress. We have his case transferred to the local Senior and Disabled Services and had an interview and now we are waiting for another interview that might get him closer to housing.

Let me tell you I think I bit off more than I can chew. Dealing with someone who has the brain damage he has is challenging. In the beginning, I thought it was just a stroke but I spoke with his sister in another state and learned the dent in his forehead is the result of a blow to his head that damaged his right frontal lobe. That means a lack of self-control and behavior problems. We went into a fast food place and the person at the counter was a little bizarre and he totally flipped out! He said the person was a man dressed as a woman and went on about the bible. I got him out of there as fast as possible. Now I see directing him to the White Bird and the Service Station is not going to work because if people are different he flips out and has to flea. Both the places where he can help have many strange people hanging around.

The night shelter puts people on the floor and he can not get off the floor without a chair and chairs are not allowed in the room. The stroke has caused him post-stroke fatigue which means he falls asleep in the afternoon and the group sleep places have strict rules about when people can enter and when they can sleep.

Our only hope is to get him into a special program for disabled people and that could take months. We could have killer freezing nights before that happens. And leaving on his own reduces his ability to function. On the other hand, I might kill him first. Only kidding, but his religious and political ideas are the total opposite of mine. I let him watch whatever TV shows he wants to watch, like letting a kid watch cartoons so the child can be ignored, and I have to leave the room because I can not tolerate the 700 Club and Fox channel. God is preparing me for sainthood with this person. My reaction to what he thinks, and likes, is as bad as his reactions to what he does not like, only I can hold my tongue and leave the room.

I am torn but I am kind of glad a property manager can say he has to go. I just wish he had a good place to go to.

If this new age actually comes to pass, let's not fool ourselves, it will supply just as much brutality as the old age, only the justification for it will change. Mark my words. — Merkwurdichliebe

Why do you say that? I am concerned that running everything from the top down is leading to a Nazi-type organization. But on the other hand, I am amazed by the amount of concern for homeless people today. In my community, we used the police to drive the homeless away. At first, the change was gradual but in 2008 we hit a tipping point and today candidates try to win our vote by saying they will resolve the homeless problem. I think there is more tolerance for people who are different but that seems to have increased violence as individuals try to right what they see as wrong with violence.

Just like rushing into a burning home to save someone is a super-moral act, it is not immoral to refuse to do so. — Hanover

I like your reasoning.

In terms of why your community prohibits you from having guests of this sort I don't know, but it raises the question of why your home is so highly regulated and why your community would have such rules. — Hanover

It be just my area but I have Section 8 Housing and the is federal. Anyone who has anything to do with drugs is evicted, so a mother sheltering a son or daughter who uses, will be evicted. We might be able to change that because we changed how the state handles children when they are made wards of the state but wow that was a huge effort involving many people, organizing and getting media attention and all that may have been fertile but we had a new governor who wanted to change things so all our work enabled the governor to make changes. However, with the information Banno gave me, I am thinking maybe I should become more of an activist regarding brain-damaged people and the wrong of living them on the street without caseworkers and the help they need. My sister is a homeless activist and we are planning on testifying at the state level after the first of next year when the legislature will take up the problem of homelessness again.

Section 8 does not allow sharing homes. I am not sure about all of that. If I got married I could share a home but I sure don't want to do that! My rental agreement is for one person and all the rentals have been in have a two limit on visits. That is reasonable but it is not adequate for a brain-damaged person. I think we can all agree brain damaged people should not be alone on the streets unless that is their choice. My guest's ability to function has greatly improved this past week and we have essential progress on hooking him up with services and the medical community. We need shelters for these people complete with the ability to evaluate them and then help them get the right services and shelter and that just isn't economically possible right now. Before Reagan, we did have places for these people but Reagan closed them when he was president. Some of the places were hell holes because far, far more people needed help than communities could help. Some of the places were ideal with different levels of care. Oh dear, thank you for your questions, I have so much research to do. :cry: I am really way too small and limited to do what needs to be done and back to the moral thing, it is like Nazi Germany if I ignore the problem and do nothing. In a democracy, people are supposed to take responsibility for resolving problems. In Germany's Christian Republic the state controlled everything and the people were made powerless. I fear we are moving in that direction but I also see a lot of movement for the good. :worry: I am way too small and limited but does that excuse me?

Sorry at the moment I am feeling overwhelmed because there is so much more for me to do if I become more politically active. You made me aware of how much research I have to do. :lol: I don't know if all this is helpful but I will try to find it in me to learn more and organize my thinking. By the way, I have sleep apnea and would become totally dysfunctional if I became homeless and didn't have electricity for my CPAP. I would rather be dead than homeless but that is another thread labeled "life sucks".

On the upside, just as much good is happening as bad. I have heard the New Age is a total change of consciousness and those who come of age in the New Age will not be able to relate to our brutal past.

I LOVE YOU GUYS, ALL OF YOU. YOU ARE AN IMPORTANT PART OF CHANGE.

The moral principle is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
— Athena
Right. This is supposed to be said by Jesus, and so it has been persisted in time as a rule of conduct among Christians. However, Jesus also taught turning "the other cheek". Now, how many among the about 2 billion Christians apply it? I believe you know the almost inexistent percentage. So, I believe this principle has and utterly failed, as it was expected to, besides. This is what happens when the bar is raised too high. — Alkis Piskas

That comment about raising the bar too high is interesting, but the quote is also called the golden rule, and as you said it exists in all civilizations only worded slightly differently.

“Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.” is a Confucius quote. Your explanation of why that is a better way of wording the thought is appreciated. I will agree with you.

I am not sure of what you said about taxes. Because I have been politically active, I know the majority of people vote for social programs but not the tax increases to fund them. For many years I was a political activist to get something done about homelessness, so I am very aware of the reality of people in favor of doing the right thing, but no one wants to pay more taxes. In the past, Oregon had few people and a lot of forests, and the government paid for everything with revenues from the forest. Texas paid for things with revenues from oil. Eventually, there are more people are fewer resources for revenue and then we end up paying taxes. That is an economic problem.

I think we have many economic problems and that we all could face economic collapse. That is another issue. This morning I picked up the latest information for low-income people who need shelter and I am wondering who is in touch with reality and who is not! Does the government bureaucracy that puts out this information realize how discouraging it is to read low-income houses is hundreds of more than what they have? I studied Public Policy and Administration at the university level and that was the most depressing time in my life. Government is not the answer, at least not the way we are going about things now. I heard a public statement encouraging people like me to help by renting a bedroom, but the rules of the game for low-income people prevents that. We have given too much power to the government and "land lords" to control everything and lost our individual liberty and power. That is in the US. I don't know how that is around the world.

Oh dear, we need to discuss economics and see if we can figure out better rules for the game. Another problem is we don't have enough land for families to have the nice-sized plots they once had and the cost of building a house is for too high to build low-income housing that is affordable for many of us who need low-income housing and as our population increases, these problems are going to get worse. My son's and daughter's generation will experience far more homeless old people than we have now because we are not building the public housing for them that they will need. People with small houses can't take in their aging parents, or their adult children. We just are not planning for meeting our shelter needs.

I got to the point where I stopped having these people into my room as I was worried that I would lose my accommodation and some people advised me that it was not safe for me to have such visitors. — Jack Cummins

Good someone with experience. Experience with people who need help and experience with the moral dilemma. It is absolutely best for me to avoid people who need help because I am so strongly compelled to help. As some would say, I don't have good boundaries.

I have been listening to college lectures about how ancient Athens argued about character and moral dilemmas of judging good and bad. It has always been my nature (a basic trait of character) to care for others, and even put their needs and desires before mine. Ignoring someone who needs help strongly goes against my nature. For me, in every cell in my body, it is a moral mandate that I help those who need help and want help. THIS IS NOT 100% RATIONAL. IT IS A STRONG FEELING.

On the other hand, for me, this is politically like Nazi Germany because it is a matter of who has the power to be the authority over us and how is that justified? Some may say God alone has authority over us and that comes up in preChristian Greek debates and against with Protestants and arguments for democracy. A king orders that a man be left to rot in the fields and his sister buriers him. The king is livid with her and she snaps back, even before the kings, sisters buried their bothers.

Antigone buried her brother out of devotion and loyalty to both the Gods and her family. Without one or the other, she would not have had the courage or thought of going against Creon’s law and putting her life out on the line. — ancient-literature

If we bow to authority as the Germans did, we destroy our liberty. We destroy the notion that we turn to a god to know right from wrong. This does not have to be the god of Abram, it is a matter of reverence. This matters because it is a matter of responsibility and personal power and our character, if we are moral and upstanding citizens or not. We fought two world wars to defend that point of view.

We all judge right and wrong with our feelings and if we take that out of the equation, may the gods have mercy on us. What does everyone think defined Nazi Germany if not a matter of power and authority? In the beginning, the Jews were just removed and if German citizens had united in a conviction of human rights, none of the rest would have followed. By the time enough people realized something was seriously wrong, individuals no longer had the power to make a difference without losing their jobs and maybe their lives.

Homelessness is torture and it is a death sentence.

If there are social services that can adequately take care of this man I don’t imagine it would take a lot of time to connect with them, but perhaps for some reason it does. — praxis

It is much much harder than I expected! I need information I don't have. Thank goodness I have gained the ability to talk with his sister who lives in a different state and I learned a lot. That dent in his forehead is the result of being mugged and robbed. The blow to his head caused right frontal lobe brain damage and that is why he has a disability income, meaning his income is less than $900 a month, and renting just a bedroom is over $700. He has a car so he has a bit of a life but that is a major expense. On top of that is untreated diabetes and he has repeatedly had strokes damaging his brain, even more. We have made huge progress in his ability to find his way from my home to the senior center and we have a medical appointment in a couple of weeks which opens the door to getting help.

His ability to think things through is very low so getting a cell phone is next to impossible! I got him to the store to look at cell phones but we could not complete the process of buying one. He threw away his last one away because he has trouble using them. I brought him home because I had no one of contacting him when he is lost on the streets.

Time for me to get back on task. The Senior and Disable Services is open in a few minutes. I have until 12:30 before I go to work today, so maybe we can get something done!

THANK YOU EVERYONE- I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ALL AS SOON AS CAN.

I also have examples of 'warnings' or 'proposed consequences,' If I interfered. I was given a letter by my own union to cross a picket line by office staff on strike at the school I worked in, I DID NOT, nor ever will cross a picket line, no matter what shit letter I was given. It became regional policy within our school system, that a teacher should not physically break up a fight between pupils for fear of getting accused of assaulting the pupils involved. I HAVE ALWAYS, physically broken up any fight I have came across between pupils. I would never stand by and watch pupils hurt each other, damn the consequences, and so on..... — universeness

And in the US, liberty meant that is your decision. No one could force you to do that and no one could prevent you from doing that. Destroying that liberty is to become as Nazi Germany where authority decided what people would and would not do. The consequences of destroying our liberty are social destruction and this pushes us to the controversy of our right to carry guns. Our problem is we have serious social problems that make it unsafe to allow individuals to own guns. And that brings us back to education. In ancient Athens, education was lifelong and about citizenship. If we do not recapture that connection between liberty and education, we are doomed.

I am a socialist/humanist. I believe that the means of production, distribution and exchange of any significant size should be owned by the people, for the people and not as a means of generating profit for the rich or those who aspire to become such. I would also not allow any private citizen to own land. Technology which assists the means of production distribution and exchange must also benefit all people and not just the very few. I advocate for getting rid of money as the main controller of exchange. The state must serve the people and support family as well as family supporting each other. — universeness

I do not agree with that paragraph. I am in favor of private ownership and control. However, not laissez-faire economics. A policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering. have been mentally lazy and ignored all the issues of economics and we are not well-informed voters.

I am not trivialising the problems you raise in your quote above but it's our collective responsibility to ensure that any automated system improves the lives and personal security of people and does not reduce it in any way. I would not blame technology for people ignoring the forced removal of their neighbours (due to the fact they were Jewish or based on any other such unacceptable reasoning). I would blame the people who use technology for such purposes. Guns don't kill people, people kill people but it's still really dumb to arm your citizens in the way they do in the USA. — universeness

Oh, what a delicious argument you opened. I think if you were aware of how technology has changed our expectations and our values and how we think you would see the social change more clearly. This subject is so complex I don't know where to begin. Perhaps a thread about how technology has changed our lives and the input of many people would be helpful.

The receptionist was someone who served everyone, her employer and the public. That is a frame of mind. That is not what someone is thinking when answering the phone today. What rules our thinking is policy and organization. The job of answering the phone has been narrowly defined and the person answering that phone knows nothing except the correct connection that needs to be made and the person who answers the phone has no power but reacts like a programmed switch. If the person answering the phone steps beyond the definition of the job, s/he will be reprimanded. The control is at the top not with the individual. This is why I object to none of us having private property and control. I fear nothing worse than that control from the top. As Tocqueville said our democracy would be a despot and everything is fine as long as everyone appreciates the decisions from the top. Have you read Tocqueville's book "Democracy in America" written around 1830? As a teacher that might be the most important book, you could offer your students if they are old enough. Living under the decisions made at the top may not be the way to go. Like Locke said about the king/father, that would be fine if like the parent the king worked for the child to become independent.

The situation you describe above is because you live under a horrible, capitalist, free market economy (as do I), where private landlords can almost do as they like. If you had a lot more money, you would not have to deal with these 'basic survival' issues you currently have to deal with. Is that how people should be forced to live? Completely controlled by how much money you can access? It's other humans that force this way of life and they are actually very few in number, globally.
They need to be 'overthrown,' permanently!
A newlywed couple or a child reaching the age of 18, should be provided with good quality accommodation, free of charge, as a human right from cradle to grave. Competitive fighting pits, such as Craig's list should not be able to exist. — universeness

Another delicious disagreement. I think we need to rethink economics but even more important is education for good character and good moral judgment. Only a police state controls everything. Liberty begins with governing oneself and independent thinking. I am old school. Business is done eyeball to eyeball and depends on our good judgment of character and more. If I know you and can deal with you face to face now and in the future, I will hold you accountable for keeping your word and under that condition you may be more concerned about what I think of you and how I will react if you are not a good person. Only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and this means managing life on a social/cultural level, not depending on the despot to take care of us.

I do not think we should provide for individuals without good cause because then we have people with weak character, doomed to be dependent on others. It is the parent's responsibility to raise children to become independent but they can not do this alone. The parent's efforts must be supported by the school system and youth programs and how about good media all focusing on a good culture and human dignity?

Hum, I have been listening to lectures about ancient Greek ideas on character and morals. How could you describe your character? Does your character allow you to do what is wrong?

To kill one's self or not is partly intellectual and partly emotional. I don't think the decision can be reduced to a purely rational one. Everything you mentioned has a moral weight and that involves feelings. I am willing to die for some things but not others and that is because of the moral weight or the factors involved in the decision.

I can only feel anger inside at such situations. There should be adequate social services available at a local level to help people effectively and fully in such circumstances. You should be fully supported in your efforts to assist this man and if a landlord threatens you with eviction, then that landlord should not be treated kindly for such an act. — universeness

Thank you so much.

'Evil thrives most when good people do nothing.' — universeness

Thank you thank you! That is the very meaning of our liberty!

What you said is very important to me. I have offended a friend who is a Christain and could have helped him but instead was totally self-centered and told me if I got evicted for breaking the rules it would be my fault for making that decision. I don't think she gets the moral decision and what you said about evil. Time and again I have seen evil take hold because people would not stand together to oppose it. We are going in the wrong direction by making it illegal to help others. Not even mothers dare help their grown children if they are doing drugs, without fear of eviction. Can you imagine! Laws that prevent family from helping family, And then we turn around and blame gays for ruining family values. It is not the gays ruining family values. It is education for a technological society and the values of that society, which turn to dependency on the state instead of dependency on family and each other. Does that make sense? Can you see that?

:lol: "Give me liberty or give me death." I am adding that to give some continuity to what we were talking about. Many people are not happy with social changes such as replacing the old-fashioned receptionist with recordings and all the specialization that makes doing business very complicated. And having to call 3 or 5 different offices to find the right person for the job is not efficient! We want the receptionist who knew everything and saw it as her job to find the department we need to speak with. The receptionist did all the work and we could depend on her to get us the information or whatever else we needed. That specialization is new. In the past we were generalists and the receptionist knew more than the man at the top because she thought it was her job to know the organization and how to help people. Phone trees are hell. They are impersonal and force us to be submissive to technology and that is right next to ignoring our Jewish neighbors are being taken away. I grew up with the notion we answer to God, not human authority.

Right now someone claiming to have a bedroom for rent is wanting us to complete an application and send money, before we even see the bedroom. :gasp: We are texting and I made it clear, that we do business face to face and see the bedroom or we don't do business. Craig's list is known for scams and I will not bend on meeting people face to face.

Food for thought:

For the first time in world history there are more people on the planet over age 65 than under five.

That will have profound implications for the trajectory of human population and thus of human civilization. — Chisholm

I think you are correct. When the people who need our care are proficient at making their needs known and they vote on how we meet the needs of others, that could have a profound effect on civilization.

Also we may become wiser. Young people remember facts. Older people begin to understand the meaning of those facts and are better at grasping complex concepts. Unfortunately, the benefit may not last and many older people experience a mental decline and for physical and mental reasons may require more help and be less useful.

I hope we rethink many things, such as what qualifies a person to do a job. Merit hiring is useful for some things, but sometimes a person's experience and character are more important to a job. I think education for technology, and merit hiring, have been dehumanizing. I would like to see a shift to more humanitarian concerns and that might come with an aging population.

Indeed, so-called "chemical imbalances" (in the brain) can trigger unusual behavior including but not limited to suicide. However, they, to my reckoning, don't happen spontaneously - there's got to be an (external) cause (depression due to social/financial/romantic/etc. issues).

My interest is solely in suiciders with normal brains. — Agent Smith

I spoke with a man who specialized in counseling suicidal people and I asked him if that was not terribly depressing for him. In a very positive tone of voice, he said no because people are willing to die for something they would live for but they don't know how to get it. He saw his job as helping people figure out how to get what they are willing to die for. He sounded so positive I think he was pretty successful at doing that.

A death wish sometimes comes with grief. I think that is spontaneous but it can take a while to figure out how to end one's life.

Unfortunately, Soylent Green is a dystopian movie about what will happen to the world if our stewardship of it does not improve. The old guy chooses suicide as the planet is fast running out of food.
I agree with you that the Earth is beautiful and only a fool would choose to live life as a curse.
I also see the solar system as a blank canvas, just waiting for humans to leave the planetary nest and start to mould it and make it a place which is much more alive that it is now.
Looks like we will have a permanent moon base soon, once the Artemis1 rocket actually launches and starts the process. — universeness

I think I will need to watch Soylent Green. Right now I can't watch the Babylon 5 video. I have someone sleeping on my floor. He had a stroke a couple of months ago and isn't doing well. I am hoping a friend will be willing to take him in until he gets plugged into the assistance system and has a better place to stay than in his car. Because of his stroke, he is having trouble thinking things through. I am praying I do not get an eviction notice for helping him. And now can speak of morality?

If we do not want to become as Nasi Germany we really need to turn around and head in a different direction. I am hoping what I have to say fits in the theme of 'life sucks". Like really, democracy is supposed to be about raising the human potential and making life better. Our liberty is not a license to do anything we please, but it is the freedom to choose the right thing and that goes with responsibility for our choices.

I have been listening to an audio tape about the Greek legacy, the Greek gods, Homer, the philosophers, etc.. Homer makes it very clear it is our duty to help those who pass our way and need help. I think every civilization begins with a notion that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us.
Now if you had a stroke and could not remember how to get from point A to point B because you had no short-term memory and you could not think through how to meet your needs, how would you want to be treated? As I decent person what should you and I be doing?

I am quite sure your answer would be a good defense for why I should not be evicted for bringing a homeless person into my home but we live with laws that prevent us from doing the moral thing. How is this any different from Naxi Germany? The theme of this thread is life sucks, and I argue preventing people from doing the right thing, does lead to a very unpleasant reality. "I was just following orders".

Have you been watching the assisted suicide scene from the film Soylent green again?: — universeness

That was pretty good. Not exactly as I imagined a place for dying but close. It is sad because there was no family or friends with him. When my granddaughter and a cousin sat in a room with the cousin's dying sister, they reminisced about the past and cracked jokes, and laugh a lot. Judging by the heart monitor the dying woman was good with what was happening even though she could not communicate because of severe brain damage, but when her X came in and got all dramatic, it was obvious that was not what she wanted and the man was removed from the room.

I am not sure if there is life after death, but I suspect people who have crossed over have communicated with me.

On the subject of life sucks, I remember a cartoon from many years ago when I was struggling with depression. The cartoon was a man at the service counter in heaven. The caption read, "I don't like life. Do you have anything better to offer?" That helped me decide it was up to me to make the best out of life that I can because there is nothing better than life. And going from the video you posted, I don't think there are many planets as good as ours. With all our natural disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes etc. this is still a pretty nice planet. And I bet the people who are struggling to survive because of flooding or drought, are not thinking about killing themselves but are thinking about how they will survive.

My mother spends a lot of time reminiscing and talking about the past and events in her life. It's a nice way to spend time with family over drinks etc but the only trouble is that we know all the stories. Still, I think she is happy when reminiscing, worth living for, to remember! — universeness

That is what I mean. We are full of life and our lives are what is behind us. Old age is a time of coming to peace with our lives. Sooner or later just getting dressed for the day is a chore. I make myself go to the pool and swim laps and work out in the weight room because I know my life will get worse if I don't, but it also does not mean having the body I once had and being able to do the things I once did.

:lol: As I struggle to get out of a chair, I complain to the women over 90 about how hard it is, and they assure me it gets worse and they don't like what happens to us either. In general, we are surprised that we are not the people we once were and that just getting through the day is harder than we thought it would be. On the other hand, we are glad we don't have the stresses younger people have and we are glad to leave this planet because we don't like some of the changes. Mostly we miss the receptionist answering the phone and the custom of trying to please the person who made the call, instead of expecting the person to know the organization and the right number or the right person to speak with, and company policy that clearly is not about pleasing the person who needs the service. In many cases what we are dealing with is far more complex and inefficient than in the past and so bloody cold and impersonal or excessively cheerful and not professional! We really feel sorry for the young.

It is hard to imagine knowing we die and not preparing for it. I have been preparing for death for as long as I can remember. Just in case there is life after death I make an effort to know as much as I can. I do not want to be sitting at the great dining table in the sky with the great people of history and be totally ignorant. :sad: If there is nothing after this life, I have still enjoyed all the learning. My life is much richer than it would be if I had not put so much effort into learning.

So dont write them, talk them, maybe your sister would type what you talk about. — universeness

It is possible to use technology to type the spoken word, but I have always thought better when writing. If I can not write the thought then I am even less likely to speak it. Kind of the reverse of others who get writer's block and can not think of what to write. I used to spend my whole day, day after day with cups of coffee and at least a pack of cigarettes and writing. When I learned, that with a computer we can move whole paragraphs around, I bought one made before the internet. A young man programmed it for me so it did what I wanted it to do as easily as Windows.

Oh how I love those days. Caffeine and nicotine are the writer's friends. And being in the creative flow is better than good sex. :lol: I was also a night janitor and at night the world was mine. I loved being alone in buildings going through my routine and setting the scene for tomorrow's performance. I would so do that again if I could. Loosing my ability to do that, is for me, like it is for a star athlete who can no longer compete. Cleaning a bank is a good balance to writing. I eventually got a good partner and we would go to the Larry and Kath's restaurant for our break. Oh my, those were good days.

My sister and I were raised by a single mother when women did women's work for low pay and there were not many opportunities for them to do otherwise. When the hippie movement started our mother said she though she was always a hippie. Even though we had very little money, we always had enough to share with those less fortunate than us. Not until high school did I realize we were the poor, only our mother was intent on being middle class and our grandmother was a professional, a school teacher when school teachers didn't earn that much money. My sister had a career that means retiring with money and I am blown away that she has been so committed to resolving homeless problems. But that sure comes from our mother!

Oh man, it is time for me to pick up a client. At least I am going in a very good mood after thinking about the things that made me happy and why my sister and I are determined to help others.

I can only exemplify from my own experience, only you know if there is anyway to close the rifts in your own family. — universeness

You are working so hard to rescue me and that is sweet, but after caring for my mother with ALS and my grandmother with Alzheimer's disease it is a matter of honor to end my life when I still can. My son and daughter were teenagers when the family moved my grandmother into my home and they know they do not want to deal with caring for me. It is not a family disagreement but all of us knowing the unpleasant reality. Death is not the worst thing. We all die, Some Buddhists think of death daily as an intentional preparation for death.

If I had a million dollars I would create a space for people wanting to end their lives. We celebrate birthdays and weddings and why not dying? The space I would create would be surrounded by nature and inside I would use projectors to project on the walls any scenery a person may want. There would also be a sound system and the space would accommodate the friends and family who want to be there. Some native Americans gather when a family member is crossing over. Where I live we have the right to die and I think it would be nice to make the moment as pleasant as possible.

Now I have to go take care of someone's dog before going to work. The man is back in the hospital. I really don't like caring for his dog but it must be done. I hope he comes home from the hospital soon. Just a heads up, I may be busy for a while. Not that I have that much to do but I need to rest and when my energy is low I can not think well enough to write even a post.

I know, I wasn't referring to that book you have started writing. I was referring to the book about your family members involved in fighting for basic human rights, that I think you should all write. From what you have typed so far, that sounds like it would be a very interesting book. — universeness

Really? I never thought of that. What would be interesting about that? Do you know Jefferson plagiarized John Locke? But John Locke said "life, liberty, and property" not "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

I suppose we could do a thread about the moral demands of our human rights. But the brain issue means I won't be writing any books. Now that I am experiencing this, I wonder if it was not also behind Hemmingway's suicide.

Hemingway's Suicide Caused by his Doctors - Dr. Gabe Mirkinhttps://www.drmirkin.com › histories-and-mysteries › h...
Apr 15, 2022 — He was driven to suicide by extreme pain, depression and loss of mental function. Taking a routine family history should have led his doctor to ... — Brett and Kate McKay

I think it is wrong to blame the doctors. So far we can not stop the deterioration of our brains and bodies.

You love what you do so keep doing it until your last breath. — universeness

The issue of this thread is life sucks and I am saying old age sucks. I am not sure I should still be driving and what I do depends on driving, unless I could get into a large facility and be allowed to be useful. I am explaining old age can mean losing our independence and becoming useless. The philosophical arguments for suicide express my thoughts of this situation.

Confucianism holds that failure to follow certain values is worse than death; hence, suicide can be morally permissible, and even praiseworthy, if it is done for the sake of those values. The Confucian emphasis on loyalty, self-sacrifice, and honour has tended to encourage altruistic suicide.[13] Confucius wrote, "For gentlemen of purpose and men of ren while it is inconceivable that they should seek to stay alive at the expense of ren, it may happen that they have to accept death in order to have ren accomplished."[14] Mencius wrote:[15]

Fish is what I want; bear's palm is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take bear's palm than fish. Life is what I want; yi is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take yi than life. On the one hand, though life is what I want, there is something I want more than life. That is why I do not cling to life at all cost. On the other hand, though death is what I loathe, there is something I loathe more than death. That is why there are dangers I do not avoid ... Yet there are ways of remaining alive and ways of avoiding death to which a person will not resort. In other words, there are things a person wants more than life and there are also things he or she loathes more than death. — Wikipedia

Merci beaucoup for the link; I have a feeling I've already bookmarked it on my browser. I'm mostly concerned about so-called unexplained suicides which I define as those suicides that simply don't make sense - no financial issues, no chronic illnesses, no mental disorders, you get the idea. Such people who take their own life do so for no reason at all - someone is at his office, doing his work, and suddenly he says to himself "You know what, I think I'll kill myself; I just feel like it!" and then jumps out the window. These suicides are what I find worthy of further investigation. — Agent Smith

Now that one could be brain chemistry. It could be something like the depression some women have after giving birth to a child because their hormones get messed up. The news health link explains the possible brain chemical problem.

So, in principle, an assassin could simply lace a cup of coffee with serotonin and make the victim kill himself? The perfect murder. Let's not go giving killers ideas now, ok? — Agent Smith

But I paid good money for the service.

I like what my grandson said about dying. "I don't mind dying, I just don't want to see it coming."

I think most of us, if not all of us, want our deaths to be very fast. You know, the sudden heart attack or going to bed at night and just not waking up. But there is something good to say about having time to say our goodbyes and come to terms with the parting.

I think we need some help being philosophical about suicide so I googled the subject.

In ethics and other branches of philosophy, suicide poses difficult questions, answered differently by various philosophers. The French Algerian essayist, novelist, and playwright Albert Camus (1913–1960) began his philosophical essay The Myth of Sisyphus with the famous line "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" (French: Il n'y a qu'un problème philosophique vraiment sérieux : c'est le suicide).[1]


Contents
1 Arguments against suicide
1.1 Absurdism
1.2 Christian-inspired philosophy
1.3 Liberalism
1.4 Deontology
1.5 Social contract
1.6 Aristotle
2 Neutral and situational stances
2.1 Honor
2.2 Utilitarianism
3 Arguments that suicide is permissible
3.1 Idealism
3.2 Libertarianism
3.3 Stoicism
3.4 Confucianism
3.5 Other arguments
4 See also
5 References
6 Further reading
7 External links — Wikipedia

There are a lot of unexplained suicides. Universeness and I had a discussion on that issue a couple of days ago. — Agent Smith

“The highest risk groups are older men,” says Pearson. “In fact, white men who are 85 and older have a rate of suicide that’s 4 times the national average.” — news in health

I think there could be a philosophical explanation for this. Or a psychological cause that everyone wants to deny- getting old really sucks! I had a good friend who killed herself because she could not bare to lose her independence and was left alone far too much as emphysema slowly took her life. But there are also biological considerations.

Over the decades, Arango and her colleagues have conducted detailed studies of brain structure and biology in hundreds of suicide victims. They’ve found that certain brain regions in suicide have fewer nerve cells and altered receptors for neurotransmitters. Abnormalities related to the neurotransmitter serotonin have been linked to suicide in many studies. Scientists have not yet figured out if these flaws in serotonin directly contribute to suicide or—more likely—if serotonin is one part of a complicated chemical pathway to suicide. Serotonin is also believed to play a key role in depression and response to stress and trauma. — news in health

It's quite surprising that there are no documented cases of people suiciding out of, well, curiosity and nothing else. — Agent Smith

I wish that were true but many children are dying because of a stupid social media challenge.

Parents of children who died during 'Blackout Challenge' sue ...https://www.jsonline.com › story › news › 2022/07/05 › p...
Jul 5, 2022 — Milwaukee parents sue TikTok over the death of their daughter, 9, who hanged herself during 'Blackout Challenge' The parents of a 9-year-old ... — Bruce Vielmetti

Good morning Athena. So you are a veteran fighter from a family of veteran fighters and you gained that very admirable title without killing people in a foreign land. An excellent legacy imo. I would like to read that book about you and your family and all the battles you fought for the economically and socially oppressed. Has that book been written and if not why not and why don't you write it. All you need to do is describe all the events that happened, someone else could record into a computer. I would buy that book, it sounds very interesting. — universeness

The book has nothing to do with my family except my grandmother was a teacher and her generation of teachers thought they were defending democracy in the classroom by helping children learn to read, write and do math, all are about learning HOW to think. They also taught good citizenship. The book is based on the old books I have read and collected regarding education. The purpose is to understand the importance of culture and the importance of education for transmitting that culture. That is the only way it is possible to have liberty and justice.

I quit working on the book and a blog I started because my brain is not functioning well enough to do those things. On the fun side, several of my stories were published in a book about hippies. On the serious side, a few newspapers published my ideas about social justice over a period of many years. Now my greatest wish is for someone, who does have writing skills and shares my interest, who will pay attention to my collection of old books and write about what education, culture, liberty, and justice have to do with each other. It drives me crazy to listen to the news and all the talk about all the problems we have, and NO ONE CONNECTS THOSE PROBLEMS WITH IMITATING GERMANY. I don't care who explains what happened I just want the media to stop talking as though what is happening is a complete mystery. It is not a complete mystery. It is the same thing that happened to Athens, Rome, and Germany. However, I think we can keep it simple and simply say adopting the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education put the US on the same path Germany followed.

What about seeing Putin fall after Russia experiences a Vietnam type defeat against Ukraine? — universeness

I don't need to live to see that, but if it did happen, it would please me very much. However, remember we thought war with Afghanistan was the USSR's Vietnam war, and we armed the folks like Bin Laden and gave them training, and when the USSR walked out we walked in. Wouldn't it be fun if we could replay history like we used to be able to replay the early Nintendo games?
Vietnam and Afghanistan are our failures just as Athens got carried away with its military success and started abusing its power. We have a problem with understanding morals. We should not behave as we do not want others to behave.

What about meeting a child in a store or on the street who fires one of those smiles at you which is just indescribable in its sublime honesty and innocence? — universeness

Last Wednesday I met a man at the senior center and I am praying he is there this coming Wednesday. A couple of months ago he had a stroke that makes it impossible for him to think and he is homeless. I can get him into shelter but I have to find him to do that. Last week I left the room to wash dishes and hoped he would stay and play Bingo until I got done with the dishes. I knew better. It was obvious he was not capable of playing without help and everyone else was avoiding him. If I see him this week I am not leaving him until I know where is sleeping so I can find him again. I hate it when I am trying to help a homeless person and I can not find them. My sister deals with the problem daily. It feels great to get someone to the hospital in time or get them into housing or give them a tent, but there are a lot of bad moments too.

If I had the kind of relationship with my family that your mother has, I would do as your mother is doing. I hope you realize how important that is to the decision.

quote="universeness;735098"]Perhaps there are still some movies you need to see Athena.
Some good things you still have to witness.[/quote]

Hum, the title of this thread is life sucks and you are arguing we should want something so much we are willing to stay alive for it. I see a chance for some philosophical thinking here.

I kept a high school notebook. When I was 16 or 17 years old I wrote a story about a woman who was given artificial parts every time a part of her body malfunctioned. She could not die because her artificial parts kept her alive. This is a horror story because everyone she cared about had died and the only thing she wanted was death.

I still agree with that. My time in history is past and just about everyone I know is glad to be close to the end. What we have today is not new and improved or more efficient to us. What we value is in the past, not the future, and don't want to be part of the future we see coming. My family appreciates that I intend to end my life if I am diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's or ALS and that I will not become a burden to them. What should I want more than peace with my life and the end? Winning a million-dollar lottery could be fun, but that is not likely.