I also like Pantagruel's answer. Gets right to the point and succinctly.

Speaking for myself, machines & humans can be symbiotically integrated (cyborgs) for, well, mutual benefit. It doesn't have to be a competitive, our relationship, it can be cooperative. — Agent Smith

Star Trek's Borg.

The Borg are an alien group that appear as recurring antagonists in the Star Trek fictional universe. The Borg are cybernetic organisms (cyborgs) linked in a hive mind called "the Collective". The Borg co-opt the technology and knowledge of other alien species to the Collective through the process of "assimilation": forcibly transforming individual beings into "drones" by injecting nanoprobes into their bodies and surgically augmenting them with cybernetic components. The Borg's ultimate goal is "achieving perfection".[1][2] — Wikipedia

Employers are now using their computers to monitor their employees. China uses cell phones to monitor their citizens. The technology is just as much bureaucratic technology as it is a mechanical technological advancement. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts power away from individuals to the collective, our governmental bureaucracy. At present China is more authoritarian but if we stay on our present technology path, the US may be as controlled as the Chinese.

Star Trek also repeated the theme of computer-controlled societies and plenty of people today will gladly give up our liberty for the more perfect computer control of us imperfect humans. Our present bureaucratic order is very close to a computer-controlled society like the Borg. Just because it is humans working on computers, it does not mean what we are creating is not a mechanical control of our society.

Has anyone read "PowerShift" by Alvin Toffler, Today's technology gives a whole new meaning to knowledge is power.

I count religion as education and I see all beliefs in the gods as religion. It is what Athens defended when they killed Socrates and what Rome defended when it persecuted Christians and later what Christians defended when they destroyed the pagan temples. Mythology is essential to large unites of humans and it is transmitted from generation to generation. That is education. — Athena

In that case, I'm with Pink Floyd.

How do you think nationalism was taught? — Athena

Ipledgealliegiancetotheflagandtotherepublicforwhichitstandsonenationundergodindivisiblewithlibertyandjusticeforall (except the coloureds an wommin an Mexicuns an Jews an commies an them eyeties thadr all gangstas)

Ambition, greed, and paranoia are taught? — Athena

Of course they are. How it works is: from 2-6 years old, you tell a kid that if he's a good little boy and eats all his beef, Santa will bring him nice, expensive presents - and he can hear what his lawyer daddy thinks of the Black janitor whose kid doesn't get such nice presents from Santa. Evidently, Santa, who is a fat old white man, only likes the children of successful people. After age 6, you tell him that success depends on good grades. Get into a good college (all except twelve being not-so-good colleges) and that success is a corner office and a six-figure salary. And all around him, he can see that it's true. Then you tell him that all those people in the parentheses want to take away his nice stuff.

Did you miss the explanation that education comes from philosophy? Maybe we should go back and cover that more carefully? — Athena

I didn't miss it. I ignored it. The 'philosophy' that a nation practices, and on which it bases its daily commercial transactions, political activities, law-enforcement, social organization, housing arrangements, employment practices, health-care delivery and child-raising is not the same philosophy it carves into the lintels of officious buildings and the plinths of statues.

I don't think you're chronology is correct. Christians did not attack anyone until after Constantine legitimaized their religion — Athena

Sure they did. They regularly desecrated Roman temples, destroyed religious symbols and disrupted services. That's what Paul and Luke spent so much time in jail for. No, I'm not interested in rehashing the history of christianity, here or anywhere. You seem to be ambivalent about it - good in one setting, bad in another - while I reject it in every form.

Athens was not an empire. — Athena

That's true. It was a city smaller than Eugene, Oregon, more that a quarter of its population was enslaved. But that's not "The Greeks", is it? Any more than picking a particular period out of the history of Italy is "The Romans", or a Saturday Evening cover is America.

Thanks for the brief sketch of Star Trek lore. I know of the Borg, but one version of a cyborg is also an enhanced human being (vide Grace in Terminator Dark Fate).

If we can one day create general AI, we would for sure need to reconsider what it is to be human - a can of worms but you already knew that.

If we can one day create general AI, we would for sure need to reconsider what it is to be human - — Agent Smith

The ethical question there is whether the merging of human and machine is voluntary or forced. The Borg are one example of involuntary mechanization. In fact, in Star trek Voyager, there is a story where some "drones" form a human type virtual colony: in their collective dreams, they are individual again. The irony is a bit heavy-handed, but the story engages one's sympathies.
The issue is also covered, rather more bluntly, in the Doctor Who episodes about cybermen and Daleks.

:chin: I'll have to think about that (when I can).

For the moment I'd say we're pretty much in a reallydark spot despite the valiant efforts of many, misguided though they may be. There seems to be an issue we're not giving the required amount of attention. I suppose it really doesn't count in the long run but que sais-je? We're on a wonderful journey out in the open ocean. Will we find what we're looking for? Sabrà Mandrake!

For the moment I'd say we're pretty much in a reallydark spot despite the valiant efforts of many, misguided though they may be. — Agent Smith

I don't know what that means. I understand the words, and agree with the dark spot portion of it, but don't know who is making a valiant, misguided effort to accomplish what. I may have missed a few references along the way.

There seems to be an issue we're not giving the required amount of attention. — Agent Smith

I believe there are several, but the three big ones that concern computer technology are, IMO: Personal privacy, International espionage (which includes intelligence, surveillance, interference and disinformation) and commercial exploitation (which includes undue influence and invasive procedures, as well as replacement of workers with robots without first making alternate arrangement for the displaced people.) Both industry and consumers are forging blythely ahead, without very much consideration of long-term consequences, while government stands timidly by and workers have no recourse.

But then, factor in that nobody seems to be up to the task of serious long-term figuring.

Good points! However, apart from AI, which is still a fantasy, technology ain't the guy!

technology ain't the guy! — Agent Smith

Again with the cryptics! What guy?

Again with the cryptics! What guy? — Vera Mont

Apologies. Try reframing the topic (of discussion) temporally.

I think I'm too literal to reframe something so clearly stated in the title.
Can you show me?

In that case, I'm with Pink Floyd. — Vera Mont

I am sorry. I don't know enough about Pink Floyd to know what you mean.

Of course they are. How it works is: from 2-6 years old, you tell a kid that if he's a good little boy and eats all his beef, Santa will bring him nice, expensive presents - and he can hear what his lawyer daddy thinks of the Black janitor whose kid doesn't get such nice presents from Santa. Evidently, Santa, who is a fat old white man, only likes the children of successful people. After age 6, you tell him that success depends on good grades. Get into a good college (all except twelve being not-so-good colleges) and that success is a corner office and a six-figure salary. And all around him, he can see that it's true. Then you tell him that all those people in the parentheses want to take away his nice stuff. — Vera Mont

That is not what happened in my home and I don't think it is what happens in many homes. You are also speaking of people's private lives, not public education. It sure does not come up in the school books I have collected.

I didn't miss it. I ignored it. The 'philosophy' that a nation practices, and on which it bases its daily commercial transactions, political activities, law-enforcement, social organization, housing arrangements, employment practices, health-care delivery and child-raising is not the same philosophy it carves into the lintels of officious buildings and the plinths of statues. — Vera Mont

If you are intentionally ignoring all the philosophies behind our education and the foundation of democracy, there is no point in continuing this discussion because your reasoning is lacking too much information. When we intentionally ignore someone, isn't the ignore- ance?

If we can one day create general AI, we would for sure need to reconsider what it is to be human - a can of worms but you already knew that. — Agent Smith

That statement does not go well with democracy, rule by reason. I have complete faith that human beings can be well educated and refined and a pleasure to be with. I have worked with congnitively challenged people who can not learn as well as those who attend college, but can be socialized to be a pleaure to be with. They just lack the ability to make reasonable arguments, so they are not intellectually stimulating.

I think the biggest human failure is lack of caring about education and what is possible, and not being well informed about what makes a person pleasant or unpleasant. I don't think AI will ever have human motivations and I am totally shocked by the people who are willing to give up our liberty to be ruled by AI.

I could be wrong but it appears to me no one posting is literate in classical philosophy. That means the consciousness here is limited to a place, the US or a compatible country, and the poster's lifetime. That is a very limited perspective. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I don't know enough about Pink Floyd to know what you mean. — Athena

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0bi7OfaKMY

You are also speaking of people's private lives, not public education. — Athena

In the home is where early imprinting, domestication, internalization of social roles, and world-view formation take place. All in the first 3-5 years. By the time children enter school, their attitudes and self-image are established.

If you are intentionally ignoring all the philosophies behind our education and the foundation of democracy, there is no point in continuing this discussion because your reasoning is lacking too much information. — Athena

"Behind" is the operative word. Education varies with the needs of the nation. When Athens was at war, it prized soldiers. When it was at peace (no more than 15-20 years at a time, just like the US), it valued scholars. At all times, it valued its self-image - just like every other city-state and nation-state in the world. At all times, it "believed in" something like democracy, but actually practiced domination, patriarchy, enslavement, and some degree of autocracy.

The industrial northern states didn't have slaves, so they put children and immigrants to work in similar condition to those of slavery. Once they had enough automation not to need so many unskilled hands, they suddenly discovered a 'philosophy' that required children to go to school longer and longer, which kept them out of competition for jobs and raised the literacy level of the clerical workers, engineers and technicians, of which the burgeoning capitalist economy needed more and more.

The North was determined not to let the institution of slavery spread to newly opened territories, so it fought a war, won it, freed the slaves.... and never for another century tried to give those freed Black people the same chance as their white counterparts in anything but name.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Do you really see liberty, equality and justice "for all" in the actual practices of US legislatures, judiciaries and social organizations through the nation's history? If you want to delve into the philosophy on which the United States was founded, do so. But do it honestly. Democracy?

When we intentionally ignore someone, isn't the ignore- ance? — Athena

I ignored some claim, not some-one. Yes. In order to ignore facts in favour of a special, pretty ideal, a certain degree of willful ignorance is required.

That means the consciousness here is limited to a place, the US or a compatible country, and the poster's lifetime. That is a very limited perspective — Athena

It is a limited and clearly articulated tropic. The question wasn't: What would Homer do about automation? it was "what ought we to do?

it’s not even ethical to have children because it’s forcing them into complying (aka working) or kill themselves through slow degradation or suicide. You have to expand what is the scope of the human negative experience.

You’re a dbag if you think this an acceptable arrangement to cause for other people (imposition). So it’s not automation, it’s the very job itself that is unethical.
@Bret Bernhoft@Agent Smith@Joshs

I see where you're coming from. It's very simple, isn't it? After all, (our) liberty is at risk. What's needed is a good education for our children and we'll be ok. Democracy, by the way, is a wonderful system and I'm glad you're for it.

In the home is where early imprinting, domestication, internalization of social roles, and world-view formation take place. All in the first 3-5 years. By the time children enter school, their attitudes and self-image are established. — Vera Mont

True and not the whole truth. Children's peers and media can have a very strong effect on shaping the child. Consider the millions of dollars spent on advertising products to children and millions of dollars made from movies for children. Schools are social institutions filled with peers and they are essential to transmitting culture.

If you want to discuss education, I would love to share the information in my books but if I go to the work of quoting them, I do not want my effort ignored.

There is truth in the rest of your paragraphs but not enough information. You made it a choice to ignore information and that means not being aware of how much information you know nothing about.

Do you really see liberty, equality and justice "for all" in the actual practices of US legislatures, judiciaries and social organizations through the nation's history? If you want to delve into the philosophy on which the United States was founded, do so. But do it honestly. Democracy? — Vera Mont

I most definitely see women, people of color, and people who fit differently in the gender spectrum have a very different reality today than in the past and we wouldn't be here without the education to get here. And we wouldn't be here if military and industrial technology needs had not changed education. I know the federal government had very little to do with education before 1958 and that since WWII the federal government has had much more power to affect education. I know in the past few people stayed in school beyond the 8th grade. There is a lot to talk about but what is the point if one of us is going to ignore information?

If you want to delve into the philosophy on which the United States was founded, do so. But do it honestly. Democracy? — Vera Mont

I will overlook that you inferred I am not being honest, and react to the possibility that there is some sincerity in your invitation to discuss the philosophy that made democracy different from despotic nations and made our education about manifesting individual power and authority. Which is it? Do you want to ignore the information or are you sincerely interested? I don't think many people know what Athens and philosophy had to do with education in the US before the National Defense demand for education for philosophy became the priority. I think a new thread might be in order.

By the way, before the war to save the union, the North attempted to bring about peace by using education to end slavery, but the South caught on and began producing its own textbooks to transmit a culture supportive of slavery. Our nation has had culture wars from the beginning and education was used by opposing sides to manifest opposing cultures. But we could also point out Athens was not perfect and had slavery and sexism and economic disparity. Reality is all yin and yang opposites. Our materialism is an evil from the beginning of dividing the world into this or that, good or evil, true of false, black or white. Not seeing the interactions of life.

I see where you're coming from. It's very simple, isn't it? After all, (our) liberty is at risk. What's needed is a good education for our children and we'll be ok. Democracy, by the way, is a wonderful system and I'm glad you're for it. — Agent Smith

Hey, are you interested in what philosophy had to do with democracy and education? Because of challenges to what I have said, I opened my books and got better information. and now I am eager to use it. For me, these forums are like going to college. We all have to find our own books, but then we come here and share what we have learned with our peers and develop our ideas. That is what makes democracy superior- all the individual growth that is made possible by communication using the past and present to become enlightened. :heart:

it’s not even ethical to have children because it’s forcing them into complying (aka working) or kill themselves through slow degradation or suicide. You have to expand what is the scope of the human negative experience.

You’re a dbag if you think this an acceptable arrangement to cause for other people (imposition). So it’s not automation, it’s the very job itself that is unethical.
@Bret Bernhoft@Agent Smith@Joshs
a day ago — schopenhauer1

It looks like you got a lot of agreement but I am not sure Mother Nature would agree with you. All life has to work and compete for a living and especially humans need a challenge or they get bored. I know many people think heaven would be a great place, but I am not so sure of that. I think what we think about life is mostly a matter of attitude. What would be better than what we have?

What would be better than what we have? — Athena

A utopia specialized to your tastes and where boredom itself doesn’t exist, cause it’s a utopia. However, utopia means “nowhere”. Meaning, this is not a possible thing. Therefore, don’t cause a non utopian arrangement on behalf of someone else. One far from it in fact. Meaning this arrangement (of working or death) should never be imposed onto someone else.

Again, someone who thinks this is a good arrangement of comply or die is a dbag.

:up:

You were right schopenhauer1 about this world, you were always right.

Schools are social institutions filled with peers and they are essential to transmitting culture. — Athena

What, you mean all the other kids who live in the same kind of house, eat the same food, play in the same park, watch the same entertainments, root for the same teams, are influenced by parents in the same neighbourhood and the same social media and the same advertising? Yes, they do transmit culture, and keep it compartmentalized.

If you want to discuss education, — Athena

Not all of education is relevant to the current topic. Not even Eisenhower is relevant to the topic - too far outdated.

You made it a choice to ignore information — Athena

I made it a choice to ignore one claim I considered inaccurate.

I most definitely see women, people of color, and people who fit differently in the gender spectrum have a very different reality today than in the past and we wouldn't be here without the education to get here. — Athena

Post 1958 education. So, what's your problem with it again? Now, I am well and truly confused about your position.

I will overlook that you inferred I am not being honest, — Athena

I not only inferred, but very clearly discerned, that you were very selective in you references to both Greek and American culture; highlighting some small parts, while obfuscating or ignoring big swatches of what don't fit with that view. By "look honestly" I mean at the whole fabric, dropped stitches, stains and all.

I think a new thread might be in order. — Athena

Possibly. We've gone quite a long way off topic. You might have access to streaming this program (esp. episode 3 The Greek Thing) for a concise overview.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1777715/ A

Our nation has had culture wars from the beginning and education was used by opposing sides to manifest opposing cultures. — Athena

So... "the philosophy behind American education" was always secondary to political and economic agendas? Huh.

But we could also point out Athens was not perfect and had slavery and sexism and economic disparity. — Athena

Coulda sworn I've done that very thing!

:up:

Meaning this arrangement (of working or death) should never be imposed onto someone else. — schopenhauer1

But working or death is imposed on all living things. You might get what I am saying if your survival depended totally on yourself.

Not all of education is relevant to the current topic. Not even Eisenhower is relevant to the topic - too far outdated. — Vera Mont

There you go again making a statement about something you know nothing about. We can not go on like this. There is so much information you reject before learning anything about it, that it is futile to continue. Maybe in the morning I will read more carefully what you have said and possibly find something worth my time to think about.

The change in education is about military technology developed in WWII. The internet is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act and this applies directly to the subject of this thread. If you don't want to know anything stop replying to what I say with explanations of why you will ignore it. :roll:

But working or death is imposed on all living things. You might get what I am saying if your survival depended totally on yourself. — Athena

Of course I get what you are saying, because that is what I am saying. Complying is not JUST one arrangement (the modern Western capitalist economic system). It can be any system related to survival (like a tribal or Robinson Crusoe economy). It doesn't matter what arrangement you are causing (imposing) on the new person born, you are still imposing an arrangement that cannot be gotten out of except through degradation or suicide. This is not right to do to someone.

Of course I get what you are saying, because that is what I am saying. Complying is not JUST one arrangement (the modern Western capitalist economic system). It can be any system related to survival (like a tribal or Robinson Crusoe economy). It doesn't matter what arrangement you are causing (imposing) on the new person born, you are still imposing an arrangement that cannot be gotten out of except through degradation or suicide. This is not right to do to someone. — schopenhauer1

:cheer: Oh goody, a real philosophical debate. Is the imposing structure evil? I think you have clarified the force that makes us as we are is external. Is that correct?

In a tribe where everyone knows everyone, there are no formal laws and law enforcers, but everything happens on a personal level, and that personal level includes our relationships, so if you hurt my child, that child's father will deal with you, and if care for me when I am sick, or save my child from drowning I will owe you. I don't think that is the structure you are talking about. I think you are talking about a formal structure with written laws and law enforcers. These are very different realities despite the effort to use the gods or the one god to make people conform to an informal, cultural structure and use education to transmit information about being a good person.

The Hebrews faced a social conflict when they shifted from herding and communally sharing the land to farming and owning private property. Now instead of sharing everything in common, there are some rich people and some poor people. Genghis Khan was 100% opposed to settling in one place and private ownership of land. He commanded his people to never settle down and begin accumulating things and never chose religion over another. Did Genghis Khan have a higher standard of morality?

here you go again making a statement about something you know nothing about — Athena

And your source of information for my absolute abysmal ignorance - besides my failure to agree with you is....?

The internet is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act and this applies directly to the subject of this thread. — Athena

Okay. So all you need to fix the problems created by automation since the 1960's is to hop in your time machine and reset the US education system to 1957.

In a tribe where everyone knows everyone, there are no formal laws and law enforcers, but everything happens on a personal level, and that personal level includes our relationships, so if you hurt my child, that child's father will deal with you, and if care for me when I am sick, or save my child from drowning I will owe you. I don't think that is the structure you are talking about. I think you are talking about a formal structure with written laws and law enforcers. These are very different realities despite the effort to use the gods or the one god to make people conform to an informal, cultural structure and use education to transmit information about being a good person. — Athena

So you are unnecessarily taking my argument down rabbit holes. Let's start from the beginning.

Life itself is something where once a person is born, they need to survive in some way (usually by way of cultural learning).

The survival game (in whatever cultural setting, tribal, Western-industrial, pastoralism, farming, whatever), IS the "comply" part. If the person born into the survival-game doesn't like that game, they have no choice but to starve to death, free ride, etc. or kill themselves. It DOESN'T MATTER what the contingent social game the person is born into, imposing ANY game (arrangement of survival) is what is wrong. UNLESSS the game was LITERALLY someone's individualized idea of what a utopia is (one where even being bored doesn't exist), then forcing this arrangement of comply (with the game, any game) or die is wrong to do to someone else. That is what one is doing when procreating another person into the world... forcing them to comply with the game (of survival of ANY variety tribal, industrial, Robinson Crusoe, or otherwise) or die. That again, is wrong.

Vera Mont
248
here you go again making a statement about something you know nothing about
— Athena

And your source of information for my absolute abysmal ignorance - besides my failure to agree with you is....?

The internet is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act and this applies directly to the subject of this thread.
— Athena

Okay. So all you need to fix the problems created by automation since the 1960's is to hop in your time machine and reset the US education system to 1957. — Vera Mont

You do not have to agree with me, but throwing out information because it is old is a problem. In your defense, I had a professor who rejected all research that was not in the Abstracts and was more than 10 years old. Perhaps you have a college education that taught you to reject information more than 10 years old.

:rofl: For sure if education had not changed in 1958, we would not be where we are today. The logic for this is the same as saying if the couple did not have sex 9 months earlier they would not have a baby. Education is like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii. We changed the purpose, the wish in 1958.

We went from education for good moral judgment to leaving that to the church. We went from education for independent thinking to "group think". We went from using the Conceptual Method to using the Behaviorist Method which can also be used for training dogs.

The changes were made in part because those in power thought the change was an improvement, and in part to advance technology as rapidly as possible and prepare everyone for a technological society with unknown values. That is not all bad, but ignorance of what was done is a problem because our liberty and democracy are not being defended in the classroom and we are shifting to a police state, and worse, an uncontrolled information age where China's TikTok has raised serious national security concerns and we are not prepared to talk about our changing reality.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-china-united-states-national-security-government-and-politics-ac5c29cafaa1fc6bee990ed7e1fe5afc