I've worked with former prisoners over the years - hard core criminals - almost all of them knew the right thing to do. The consistent theme is that they did what they did because something mysterious came over them or 'the knife just went in' or 'before I knew it my fists were hitting her' or 'I snapped'. Their more righteous self temporarily went 'off line'.

I am not big on making all encompassing conclusions from this, but I will say that the difference between choosing to do the right thing and choosing to do the wrong thing is often located in person's sense of self rather than the nature of the action. — Tom Storm

Yes, our sense of self and our emotions and addictions do become a complicating factor. We do not have to go to the extreme of convicts. Obese people and addicts feel compelled to do what they do. Shoplifting is associated with youthful "catch me if you can" thinking (monkey thinking) and with grief. How about speeding when we drive? :grin: It is hard to be good all the time.

Back to the convict example, I engaged with convicts and I would say at least some of them were confused. One young man was really looking forward to being in the correction system because he thought it meant real correction through education and he knew he was not prepared for life. It really upsets me when an abused woman finally kills her abuser and is put in prison. I don't think that is right.

Can philosophy help these people? I think it can but it has to be learned because this thinking does not come naturally and we all need support from others especially when we are trying to make a personal change. This is why the classics and philosophy or religion are important. Because we can learn to use our minds to live intentionally, to let go of the past and create ourselves as new people. In religion, this called born again. Religion has the benefit of a support group and not so much philosophy, but it is all about learning.

AA groups speak of our higher selves- that part of us that knows better. Well, it might not actually know what philosophy can teach us, but it has a desire to make the right choice. We may lack the strength at first. We may have really bad thinking habits that hold us down. But we all have a higher self that wants to get things right.

Wow-what a nice way of explaining. Are you coming from Eastern culture? And I like what Jack Cummins said about getting beyond binary thinking.

I have an 8 A.M. appointment for swimming and I am going to enjoy so much contemplating what the two of you have said while I exercise. Thank you for a wonderful start to this day.

Perhaps you speak of fast and slow thinking? Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman explains fast and slow thinking.

Most of the time we are in fast thinking mode and automatically do things without thinking. Slow thinking consumes a lot more energy. :lol: After a couple of hours in the forum, I have to take a nap. Slow thinking is the real thinking that separates us from other animals.

Slow thinking is best when we learn the higher-order thinking skills.

Higher-order thinking, known as higher order thinking skills (HOTS), is a concept of education reform based on learning taxonomies (such as Bloom's taxonomy). The idea is that some types of learning require more cognitive processing than others, but also have more generalized benefits. In Bloom's taxonomy, for example, skills involving analysis, evaluation and synthesis (creation of new knowledge) are thought to be of a higher order than the learning of facts and concepts which requires different learning and teaching methods. Higher-order thinking involves the learning of complex judgmental skills such as critical thinking and problem solving.

Higher-order thinking is more difficult to learn or teach but also more valuable because such skills are more likely to be usable in novel situations (i.e., situations other than those in which the skill was learned). — wikipedia

I would say being capable of thinking does not automatically result in good thinking. Education is very important to good thinking.

Let us be clear, reading the Bible does not equal becoming a good thinker. We can hold an understanding of the Bible without higher-order thinking skills. In fact, the 2012 Texas Republic agenda was to prevent education in higher-order thinking skills.

My question is if anyone can explain why they would believe this, and how it’s okay for morality to be subjective. — Franz Liszt

Morality is subjective because we are social animals and live in groups. All social animals must comply with the group's culture or be expelled from the group. Or at least pushed to the outer circle where one is more apt to be eaten by predators.

A moral is a matter of cause and effect and Cicero said we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what it is. We feel uneasy when we do what we believe is wrong. We might comfort ourselves by rationalizing why it is okay to do something we know is wrong but that does not change the fact that we do feel uncomfortable doing what we believe is wrong.

I guess you have to make the case that moral statements like this are justifiable epistemologically in whatever philosophical/spiritual system you settle on. Should be easy to do if you are a Christian (although it doesn't stop the prosperity gospel folks and neo-liberals of faith from looking past injustice and disadvantage).

It also interests me what the role of morality or social justice might be in a world where where matter isn't real and only consciousness is true. — Tom Storm

My thinking is based on Cicero and the notion that we choose the right thing when we know what that is. If you disagree, it would help me form an argument if you say why you do not agree.

Why bother with considering a world without matter? I don't think I would like a world without matter.

I am not wishing to go into the wilderness of mere relativism, but wish to be aware of the many perspectives because this awareness leads to a certain amount of distance. I don't believe that humanity has overcome the need for religious thinking, because even the most rational scientists have to encounter the unexpected and unpredictable. Perhaps the people who think that they have no moral dilemmas, will get to the point where they feel the guilt of conscience, even though they may not call it 'sin.' — Jack Cummins

That is where I rely on Cicero and the belief that humans are compelled to do the right thing when they know what that is.

We all know shoplifting is wrong but how wrong? When we do wrong, we justify it. As in shoplifting, or paying a worker a wage that is not a livable wage. Capitalism can lead to great inequality and robbing from the rich is not so wrong. It can be seen a fair equalizing. I am not saying that shoplifting is right, but that we justify doing what we know is wrong. Justifying our wrongs proves Cicero is right. We need to see ourselves as the good guys. It is a biologically and psychologically determined fact.

I just read a book about education that is so racist it is shocking that such a book can be rewritten and published in this day and age! The man who wrote the book believes he is doing a good thing. This is where philosophy and science come in! In a democracy, we need to argue until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. We do not see this as the word of God, but an ongoing process to have, and live by, the best reasoning possible.

Economics - where money and resources are prioritized is almost entirely a reflection of the cultural priorities of a society. — Tom Storm

I am amazed by the huge transfer in wealth we are experiencing with so much money being given to citizens who have done nothing to earn it and telling them to spend it to stimulate the economy. I don't think that has been well thought out and I really want to live long enough to know how this does work out. I don't know if this is caring about the people or a new way of thinking what is best for the economy? I like it a whole lot better than Reagan's denial of people needing help and slashing the domestic budget and pouring money into military spending. But in the Reagan years, our dependency on OPEC oil and OPEC embargoing oil to the US, lead to an economic crash, and at the time the only way to correct that problem was having the military might to take back control of oil and keep it.

Trying to take control of Afghanistan did not go well, and setting up half the people to want to be like the West and leaving them to the mercy of the other half that wants to defend a way of life that is as old as biblical times, is a human crisis that I am very ashamed of.

Is it good human values to destroy the lives of others, so we can have a high standard of living? Once we have intervened, is it morally our responsibility to defend those who want to be as the West? Should we ask families to give up their sons' and daughters' lives in a defense of people on the other side of the world? I am really torn up at the moment because of our role in Afghanstan?

I am wondering about the economic plays and how they fit into human values.

I think people know a lot in the West. Or anywhere on the planet for that matter. It's just that we sometimes don't apply that knowledge all too well. We're still human, after all.

And yes, the link between science and philosophy still seems obscure to me but I'm getting there — TaySan

I do not have so much faith in what the West knows. We have been specialized and our knowledge seems very limited to our specialty and our personal lives. In the US we are much more apt to be Christian and to know nothing of philosophy! So we know our specialty, our personal lives, and how our own particular church interprets the Bible. That is not knowing a lot. But instead leads to a lot of conflicts because individually, we know so little.

Someone put a lot of work into that explanation. Is it your original work?

Personally, I think family is very important. Next to that is a sense of community. But that is the way of the female. Our identity is about relationships, whereas, male identity seems centered on what a male does, a carpenter, a welder, a machinist, a farmer etc..

I think it’s a matter of fact, although I’d have to research it to find the specifics. It’s not that they’re not as charitable, but that Christianity has an explicit command to care for the poor and sick. But I’d be happy to be proven — Wayfarer

I think all religions are basically the same. However, they are organized differently. Rome gave Christianity its organization and when Rome in the West failed, the Church had to pick up much of the responsibility of government. But charity is common to different belief systems.

Dāna (Devanagari: दान) is a Sanskrit and Pali word that connotes the virtue of generosity, charity or giving of alms in Indian philosophies.[1][2] It is alternatively transliterated as daana.[3][4]

In Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism, dāna is the practice of cultivating generosity. It can take the form of giving to an individual in distress or need.[5] It can also take the form of philanthropic public projects that empower and help many.[6]

According to historical records, dāna is an ancient practice in Indian traditions, tracing back to Vedic traditions.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%81na — Wikipedia

Yes. Of course it is. When you have well-rounded education you not only have well rounded individuals but more empathy and lack of violence in the streets. — javi2541997

I think I love you! I have returned to buy old, grade school textbooks because there is a new committee to study education for democracy and I want to organize something locally to build public support for a return to education for democracy. In book after book, there are stories about family and community that at one time created a different reality from what we are experiencing today.

Can you find old textbooks? If you can find them we can bring the past into the present. With a book you can show people the "thought" is not your own but comes from books of a past that was different from the present. Look for information about what international banking has to do with turning us into products for industry and the production of national wealth. It takes money to make money and a properly educated mass is good for bank loans.

I think this is a transition period. We need wealth to have good education and medical care, libraries, the arts, etc. We are new at having so much money. Hopefully, we will regain wisdom and do better. :heart: :flower:

Generally speaking, Christian charitable and missionary organisations have been well ahead of Buddhists and Hindus when it comes to actually doing stuff. — Wayfarer

Again, I think this is an economic matter. In the US, not that long ago, Christianity helped the poor by assuring them they were closer to God than the rich. I was strongly impressed by Jesus and poverty being closer to God. Although I decided I am not Christian, I internalized fear of working for the money instead of the cause. In the past, Christian leaders have worked with the US government to get people to accept poverty and not rebel in protest against low wages and poor working conditions. Christan leaders worked to mobilize the cold war against those "godless people". Christian leaders have supported war and it was the Christian Right and the invasion of Iraq that ended my belief that is wrong to argue against Christianity. Billy Graham was one of those leaders and he did a marvelous Christmas show announcing God wants us to send our sons and daughters into the Iraq war, you know the war that was the "power and glory".

How do you know of the charitable work being done by Buddhists and Hindus that makes you feel comfortable determining they are not as charitable as Christians?

I don't really have a strong view on this. I am attracted to some Buddhism ideas - but isn't everyone? I don't see any Asian cultures that I would swap for mine. I am always most interested in how cultures manage poverty, illness, work and law and order. — Tom Storm

I think how a country manages poverty is very much an economic matter. The US was totally dependent on charity and government had nothing to do with the welfare of people until Roosevelt and the Great Depression. Some people continue to fight against the government managing welfare issues. Some European countries are more advanced in the government taking care of welfare matters and it seems secular people are more in favor of a government that does manage welfare issues, while there are Christians who want to keep the government out of doing what charity should do. In fact, Christianity is known in the US for getting people to accept poverty before the US moved from an industrial economy to a consumer economy.

Okay, and if we decided who is a Muslim and who is not, would there be the same concerns about who is really Muslim and who mistakenly thinks s/he is a Muslim? Do we want to close our borders to Muslims because they could be terrorists or do we want to stand for religious freedom? If we stand for religious freedom who gets to chose who is a Christian, who is a Muslim, who is a Jews, etc.. Can I claim to be Buddist without being a member of a Buddhist group? What are the boundaries of religious freedom?

Interesting idea. Christianity is an easy target in its limited literalist formulations. I have a soft spot for Christianity and unlike Nietzsche and other resentful thinkers, I consider its reverence towards the weak, the marginalized, the lost, the 'bungled and the botched' to be of profound importance to culture.

It's a pity so much Christianity - especially where it is growing fastest - is of a grotesque, materialistic fundamentalist bent. But it seems most religions and spiritual systems have their gross populist variations. — Tom Storm

I really do not believe Christians are doing such a good job of being tolerant and compassionate people when compared to Hindus and Buddhists. Until Bush Jr. took us to war with Christian support I did not argue religion, but that was the last straw. Trump and his Christian supporters are even worse. Christianity without education in the classics is what Germany had and we have had that since 1958.
To be clear, Germany was a Christian Republic not so different from ours and our enemy. The US replaced the classics with German philosophers, and adopted Germany's models of bureaucracy and education. We are now Christian and what we defended our democracy against.

How do you come by your opinion of Hindus and Buddhists and other Asian people living with Eastern philosophy?

It is quite complex when we as a kid are taught since 3 years old how to do "things" but not question anything. Just do it if you want have a job. Doesn't matter if you are agree or not. You have to pass all the university exams doesn't matter if the classes and the content have quality or not. — javi2541997

My grandmother was a school teacher when we had one-room schools. Her generation of teachers thought that they defending democracy in the classroom because they became teachers as we entered the first world war, and it was the job to mobilize us for war and get us through the war years. I have a copy of the book of the 1917 National Education Conferences, and among other things, schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our allies our wheat. Women knit soldiers' socks. School children used their lunch money to buy war bonds. When industry tried to close the schools, teachers argued an institution of making good citizens could make patriotic citizens and before the military technology of WWII our defense depended on the patriotism of every citizen. I want to make this point very clear, our defense today depends on technology and taxpayers to pay for that very expensive technology.

When my grandmother's generation was defending democracy in the classroom that meant giving everyone a well-rounded education for individual growth. This included teaching literary, music, and art appreciation because a well-rounded education means well-rounded individuals. That is a totally different human being than what we have today. Pericles of Athens spoke of how Athenians were different from Spartans. Athenians were well-rounded and enjoyed liberty. Spartans were highly specialized for war and their women had far more liberty than women in Athens, but overall Spartants had very little liberty compared to Athenians.

Germany was the modern-day Sparta and the US was the modern-day Athens. Hitler spoke of the New World Order and Eisenhower used the term Military, Industrial Complex. We have education for the Military, Industrial Complex since 1958. The US is now the strongest military force on earth and its democracy is in big trouble!

I am 15 credits short of a degree because I refused to play the game of flattering my professors and I stayed true to myself and I concluded I could not bow to the evils of a college education. I have continued reading and I listen to college lectures from The Great Courses company and love forums that for me, are like talking with fellow college friends. My life is devoted to an intellectual revolution and reestablishing the liberty we once had.

Tom I wonder if a thread about, why there is so much opposition to Christianity, would succeed? If I did such a thread I would want Christians involved, but on the other hand, I am not comfortable trying to disprove their superstitious notions. However, the ones you speak of are quite intolerable!

I totally agree with you, except for your understanding of the power of faith. Faith healing is a proven reality even if is a witch doctor chasing out demons and doing the healing with feathers and rattle. This is very important if you want to oppose Christian belief in the supernatural. Consider the placebo effect. Placebos are proven effective. Consider Chopra a doctor from India who explains how powerful our thoughts are. This is scientifically proven and when we understand it is the power of our thoughts, no matter what religion we are, or what gods we pray to, that leads to our success or our healing, then we can argue it is not a supernatural being that causes good things to happen in our lives, but good thinking.

Our brains can chemically correct our problems, and good thinking can lead to good choices such as meditating, healthy eating, exercise, taking steps to avoid harmful stress, and good sleeping habits. And during a pandemic cleanness, wearing a mask, keeping our distance, and avoid gatherings.

:heart: I just bought a very old first-grade textbook on health to share with my 6-year-old, great-granddaughter, and to show people to convince them we need to return to some of the old-fashioned ideas about education. Especially now, I think our young children need to have more of a sense of community than they have with the isolation they are experiencing. The way old textbooks are written exudes a sense of community. Back in the day, we could not rely on medical technology as we do today, so Christians and non-Christians got the same lessons on avoiding the spread of disease and the disaster Trump and some well-meaning Christians lead us into. It infuriates me when well-meaning preachers argue in favor of ignoring the rules for stopped the spread of Covid. That is not how the old first-grade textbook explains our duty as citizens to avoid the spread of disease.

Anyone saying science has made philosophy irrelevant doesn't seem to understand what philosophy is or how it works in academia. — Christoffer

Those who think that have technology confused with science. Philosophy and science deal with universals, technology does not.

asians have created different models of the energy system of the body. and they generally feel that that energy should not just go to the brain. they indeed call that energy blockage. when I see obese people who are exhausted, I think: these people don't understand energy at all. — TaySan

That is an interesting thought worth pondering. I think education in the US could be improved with the benefit of improving mental and physical health for everyone.

A body-mind-spirit model in health: an Eastern approach
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
by C Chan · ‎2001 · ‎Cited by 213 · ‎Related articles
In striking contrast, Eastern philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism and traditional Chinese medicine adopt a holistic conceptualization of an individual and his or her ... — C Chan

It is sad in the West we are so sure of ourselves and appear to know so little. In general, we don't even know what science has to do with philosophy and what that has to do with health.

The obvious question is "Why are you here?" — T Clark

Excellent question.

I just take the philosophy behind democracy for granted, and your objection reminds me I should not do that. Let's see. I like the notion that we are all equal under the sun versus the notion that a god has favorite people. I like the idea that we establish government to protect our human rights and that includes the rights of women. I love the idea of rule by reason based on logos/ reason, the controlling force of the universe, versus the mentality of thousands of years ago when humans were pretty barbaric. I think the notion of conscience, coming out of science, is very important.

There is a start for why I think my sisters in Afghanistan deserve our assistance. To me, if they want to live as we do enough to put their lives on the line then it is just human decency that we continue to defend them, instead of leaving them to be slaughtered by religious people who do not have very good human values and treat women very badly.

I think there is a serious problem with thinking democracy is a political thing that started in the US. Democracy is a philosophical thing that may have officially been manifested as a political thing in Athens but the set of values certainly was not exclusive to Athenians.

We still be products for industry. Here is what happens right know: Just go for school to learn the principles of basic. Then, choose a career. Afterward (supposedly) you get a job. Congratulations you are just another brick in the wall. Pay the bill and hmm... use the public services (?) because States want to make us think this is “success”.
How we ended up here? Easy. The governors and government. It is the most powerful aspect in today’s society. If they control education they control everything. They are so clever because we are in an era where is more easier the access for education. So they do not want the vocational education. If you are more open to read you question everything, even the governors... and they do not want so.

I wish we can go back to liberal education. This is literally where works so good in the social welfare states as Norway for example. — javi2541997

You got it but it is not because this is what governors and representatives want for us. They were lead to believe what we have is essential, just the same as most citizens believe we must have the education we have. Agreeing with me about the importance of liberal education puts you in the minority and those who represent us in government are humans just like you and me.

I say those words because I have tried so hard to raise awareness of what was done and why and I hit the wall of people being sure we must have the education we have and jumping on me for thinking public education should return to education for good moral judgment. You missed what Christianity has to do with the mess we are in! Christianity plays a big role in this mess. German education for technology left moral training to the church and both the military interest and Christian interest are best served by leaving moral training to the church. Both the military and the church want people who do not question and obey. You may have noticed, Bible study is limited to studying the Bible, and excludes other religions and philosophy. You are invited to ask questions as long as all your answers come from the Bible.

Edit :lol: I just wrote a short book and deleted it. There is a lot to say. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and their model of education for technology. We replaced classic philosophy with German philosophy. Now the US is as seriously in need of psychoanalysis as much as some whackos on the streets.

"How can I know myself"? — Nikolas

You might try Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. books, "Gods in Everyman" and "Goddesses in Everywoman". The Greek gods and goddesses are archetypes of our different human types. Bolen's books tell us more about ourselves than we thought we could know because we can see ourselves in the gods and goddesses.

In my youth, I was Persephone, the maiden stage of a female's life. When we marry some follow the path of Hera (wife) and some the path of Demeter (mother). Demeter and Hestia became very important to me. When my children were grown and out of the home, I shifted to Athena and have been a teacher and defender of democracy ever since.

What is really surprising is Bolen's explanations include the different stages of our lives and the positive and negative sides of each archetype. Here we can see how our childhoods influenced the other stages of our life and the lives of people who know.

They prepare us how to work and have an income but not asking ourselves what is going on — javi2541997

A liberal education encourages us to ask the big questions and before 1958, in the US, all children had liberal educations. The purpose of education was well-rounded individual growth. In 1917 vocation education as add to public education and this was a wonderful thing! It meant having better jobs and better pay and moving into cities with more to offer. It meant developing a middle class and an economy that provides so much for citizens our forefathers would be thrilled by our success. But adding vocation education did not change the priority purpose of education.

The military technology of the second world war changed the purpose of education. We began preparing the young to be products for industry. The 1958 National Defense Education Act had a 4 year limit but instead of returning to education for well-rounded individual growth, education for the military-industrial complex consumed us. We are now what we defended our democracy against, and our Capital Building is an ugly fortress no longer open to the public.

That is sad. I am an old hippie and as I watch the rioters and all that anger, I want to hand out flowers and sing songs that lift our spirits. "All we need is love, love. Love is all we need is need." :flower:

You got a very flowery translation. You don't strike me as a huggy kissy kind of person. Take a look at the first verse in some of the other translations too. You can find them at the link I gave. Stephen Mitchell's is one good one. They are much more hard hitting. The Tao Te Ching is an engineering textbook to teach you how to build reality. Of course, I'm an engineer. It's that old hammer/nail thing. — T Clark

Ah go on, just because I chose the translation with pictures doesn't mean it is too flowery. :lol: I am afraid you are right about me not being a huggy kissy person. That spreads disease, yuck. But in my private life, in solitude by the river, I am flooded with happiness, and I am good with the matter of my physical form dissimulating and becoming one with nature. While walking down the river path, I have no desire to hit anything or anyone with a hammer. :grin:

My father was an engineer. He worked on the Apollo that landed on the moon. He was in favor of language that was straight and to the point. That is fine for guys and women who want to be like them, but I enjoy being a girl. A bit dreamy. :grin:

Don't be afraid to call out and oppose supernatural appeals to bigotry where they happen. It is best understood this way: 'I don't hate you, I hate your beliefs.' — Tom Storm

I had to look up the meaning of bigotry.

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. — Oxford

I think coming down too hard on religious people instead of being respectful and open-minded might qualify as bigotry? It is about being the kind of person I want to be. I don't want to be obstinate or unreasonable, but for sure, I feel that way often.

No point in setting up faith as a magical word. It is just belief without evidence and works no differently than in the case of those people who thought Hitler was delivering them a magnificent world based on blood magic and race. Faith is the excuse people give for believing in something when they have no good reasons. — Tom Storm

I disagree and will continue to argue "faith" can have a magical effect including healing us and achieving more than we believe we can. The nature of faith proves to religious people, and especially Christians, that what they believe is true. Faith can be very empowering and I don't think we should underestimate that. So can self-confidence.

This is true but what of it? All religions commit atrocities and justify it with appeals to truth or faith. There is no necessary correlation between religious belief and moral behaviour. The history of our world is one of religions energetically basing their actions on choreographed bigotry and human rights violations. Hardly surprising when the only shaky evidence for God is in ancient books and outrageous claims. — Tom Storm

Yes, there is a necessary correlation between belief and behavior because the belief is a point of view that determines how we see it and our behavior is a reaction to how we see it. Which makes your statement of choreographed bigotry true.

Our planet, and life, is reason enough to believe in a god. The problem is with the mythology not the notion of a force beyond our comprehension. Personally, I am strongly in favor of having reverence and a sense of awe. Some appreciate worshipping in nature rather than a church. When we can do this with reverence, our hearts can be flooded with happiness and when we feel good we desire to do good.

You may have missed my point - the Tao Te Ching is short. It's a corollary to Occam's Razor - if you have two books which are otherwise the same, read the shorter one. It's not the same as the I Ching. The I Ching is much older. I've never read or used it. Here's a link to a whole bunch of different translations of the Tao Te Ching:

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

I started with Stephen Mitchell's version. I like it a lot. I've learned since that it is very Americanized. Some of the nuance get's left out, but ancient Chinese nuance can be really obscure. Ellen Marie Chen. Addiss & Lombardo.

I was grabbed in the first verse. I've known others who took longer. First rule of book gifts or recommendations - never ask if the person has read the book. I won't. — T Clark

I bought both the Tao Te Ching and another I Ching. I am so looking forward to comparing them.

The first thing in the Tao Te Ching book I read said,

The Tao has no name
it is a cloud that has no shape.

If a ruler
follows it faithfully,

Heaven and earth make love,
And sweet dew-rain love,
The people do not know why,
But they are gathered together like music. — Man-ho Kwok Martin Palmer Jay Ramsay

Reminds me of some of the Bible and Amenhotep's prayer and the Native American creator.

:pray: :heart: in tune with Tao is much more than factual correctness and sometimes words just are not good enough to convey meaning. I think it is pretty Asian, in general, to think our brains chatter too much and that certainly distorts or completely blocks our experience of life.

2. If and when philosophers or anyone else came up with a world-saving idea, then they would also have to sell the idea to the world-- much harder an endeavour than finding a solution. Would need to tackle, fight and overcome prejudice, ingrained cultural norms, and personal preferences and beliefs... not possible. — god must be atheist

Very true! Because of the US war with Afghanistan and a huge investment, half of Afghanistan has been Americanized and brought into the modern world, and half has not. When we pull our troops out, other countries will likely do the same, and there will be a blood bathe as the more barbaric Aghanstanians fight to take back their country and the way of life people had when the Bible was written, complete with beheading some people and stoning others. The best fighters in this war are the women who want the equality they have gained. They are our sisters and we are about to turn our backs on them and their children.

Well, philosophers did come up with science, so there's that. — Banno

That comment is vitally important to this discussion! Are all those people living below the poverty level born to be inferior people or can science detect other causes of poverty that a democracy should address? Up till now, people have functioned on a lot of false notions, and science is destroying them. Science is vital to our democracy. And here is the problem with Trump and his followers who have their lives rapped around a myth that is not supported by science. That myth has come to us through history and when we see it, we might be shocked by how long it has taken to be the ideal of democracy that came out of the Enlightenment, not the Bible. The Jews and Greeks had a war when Greeks attempted to rule over them, because the Greeks did not respect the line of inheritance that determined a person's position in life, but gave jobs to anyone who appeared to have the merit necessary to doing the job.

Mass education and merit hiring is changing our social order.

↪Athena
I'm interested in how you interpret the transfer of wealth consideration and what are the mechanisms that will cause this to happen. Please start a topic on that!
Otherwise my observation it is less because people are inherently amoral, more it is of where we are in the reality we individually are able to conjure for ourselves. Some people live day-to-day because they must, others are part of some sub-culture that is given to certain attitudes, still others have time to consider larger topics- these are not always in sync. — Proximate1

I would stand another thread, but I don't want my thoughts separated from the change in our thinking.
I am blown away by all the covid assistance that has happened and will happen. I have been through a few recessions and nothing like this has happened. In the past, the auto industry was bailed out and the banks were bailed out, but not the people. I remember Reagan saying we did not have homeless people just bums, and I remember how the poor were scapegoated for our economic problems that were caused by OPEC embargoing oil and bad industrial judgment. During that economic crisis when families needed help, we cut public assistance by increasing the requirements for assistance, making it harder to get assistance. Please, doesn't anyone else remember what happened?

During the Reagan administration, there was a huge shift in wealth and power. Clinton tried to turn this around, but another economic crash took us down again, and nothing was done to help families save their homes, and the media did not present the reality as it is being presented today. How the media is reporting this crash puts the blame on the cause of the crash, not the victims of the crash. That is a hugely important difference. The housing crisis came up as people victimized by banks, but the banks were bailed out not the victims. I think that disaster set us up for a different consciousness this time around?

Over the years I have marveled at how much assistance has increased and all the criticism! Never has any society enjoyed the abundance we have today and we might be mismanaging it, but we are new at this. We never had the ability to do what we can today. We are having a learning experience and I am fascinated with what is happening now and how this will influence our ideas about what government can and should do and what it should not do. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. What do we want of government of the people, by the people, for the people?

Nightly, I am bombarded by the injustices committed against Native Americans, the Irish, Italians, Asians, people of color, and women. This never happened before! Like our delusion of greatness is being turned upside down, and we have a lot of anger raising. Some are angry because change can not happen fast enough. Some are angry because their delusion of the greatness of the US is being destroyed. THIS IS WHERE THE PHILOSOPHY COMES IN. Why, all of a sudden, are we so focused on injustices and the democratic goal of equality? What happened to HIS STORY and the belief that what we have, depends on a few great men?

I need to stop freaking out about religion and start being more considerate of others, and you have my permission to remind me of that.

I don't know if you are familiar with Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching. He was the anti-Confucius. Here's my sales pitch for the Tao Te Ching - it is the founding book of a major school of philosophy and you can read it in an hour. You get just as much spiritual credit as you would for reading the Bible or Book of Mormon. — T Clark

T Clark — T Clark

:rofl: I think I rejected Confucius and the Book of Mormon at about the same time, both because of the sexism! :shade: I have since renewed my interest in Confucius, but I doubt if I will ever regain interest in the Book of Mormon. Believing some people have dark skin because "God" cursed them is a little too offensive for me. :rofl: At this time of my life, I have read enough to conclude not even great thinkers are right all the time so I have a renewed interest in some philosophers.

Now if by Tao Te Ching you mean I Ching, I had two I Ching books from different authors and fear I lost both of them in a move. Maybe that is something I should do today, buy another one. Oh dear, that means going to a book store and that is like an alcoholic going to the bar to get a glass of water. :worry: But heck, if that is what you are talking about, I have to have the book for the discussion, right? :grin:

Which quality of faith do you refer to? For example Gurdjieff taught that:

Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness.

As important as it is, how many have ever contemplated the difference? — Nikolas

The only faith I know of is a blind belief. Without it there is doubt. I don't see the logic in doubting what we believe as equalling freedom? I have no idea what a mechanical faith would be? Believing something without questioning it? I don't think I have done that since I was 8 years old. However, I am pretty sure gravity pulls things to earth and I stopped jumping off of the top of the swing, and buildings, with the hope of flying. :lol:

I am so glad that you are keeping up the discussion. It is interesting that you do prefer a literal interpretation of the Bible. I am a bit more on the esoteric level, but I think that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities, ranging from the exoteric and esoteric.

I have not forgotten the thread I started, but need time and creation of new threads, because the matters discussed are extremely complex and need careful thought. However, I think that you are doing so well, in keeping discussion alive. — Jack Cummins

Whoops did I forget the little word "not" again? I hate a literal interpretation of the Bible and I hate it when I forget the word "not".

Your question for this thread is particularly important to me. I mean, really, really important to me! As I see it, we can not have liberty and democracy without the correct education. For me, that does not mean education for technology and leaving moral training to the Church. :gasp:

How much fun to think about what I think with the replies to this thread. Especially with the thread Philosophy has failed to create a better world and

T Clark — T Clark

post in that thread forcing me to think about what I think.

That is I believe philosophy is essential to right thinking and right thinking is essential to liberty and democracy and must be a part of education. :sweat: that is a lot of mental work and there is nothing better I can do with my life than do as the Greeks attempted to do- to get it right. :lol:

Philosophy, in particular western philosophy, has always seemed like a stone wall to me. Hard, rigid, and overbuilt but fun to bounce balls, my ideas, off. The stoniest of the stones is Kant. There are some philosophers I like sometimes - e.g. Emerson and James.

On the other hand, I've met other people like you who were saved by philosophy. I must admit I don't get it, but I've come to respect it and accept that it works. For me, it's like jazz. It's not my music and I don't really get it, but enough people I respect value it that it would be silly and graceless to argue. — T Clark

Perfect. It is like I don't get religion. Weird isn't it? Some people want only natural health foods and exercise, some want pot and some want beer or wine. "To each his own", my grandmother would say. I had no idea that there could be any reason for not liking Kant and Weber. After almost worshipping Cicero, I have found fault in him. I did not like Confucious because he is so sexist, but I did like his explanation of the importance of putting effort into being the kind of human being we want to be. I really want to be a happy and loving person who makes my grandchildren and their children feel good. I have a lot of work to get there for the same reason you find fault with Western logic being like a stone wall.

Oh, good. I get to show off my erudition. This is from Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

If I may interpret the interpretation. The Tao is the unspeakable oneness that comes before thought. Goodness, in this context, is Te, the expression of Tao in our lives. I think what Cicero and you are talking about is morality. Interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation - What's right comes from inside us. — T Clark

Now, this is heaven! What a delightful contemplation! :heart: :flower: I will have to ponder it before attempting a response. But my knee-jerk reaction is "morality" is finding the good and choosing it because of my experience with moral stories and asking the child, "what is the moral of the story."

However, you also make me think about the lecture on the Greek Legacy I am listening to. For a period of time, the philosophers of Athens thought it impossible for a bad person to do good things. I do not agree with that. I do not see people as good or bad, but I think we are both.

I feel the same way. I see that I am one of the most fortunate people in the history of the world, even though there have been some really unhappy parts of my life. But I don't think that's really what's going on. I think it's what's inside us, you and me, that makes us, I don't like the word, optimists. There are many other people who live in the same world who cranky and unhappy and who blame this beautiful world. — T Clark

And that is where philosophy is important! But also good parenting and security are important. We are learning, being disadvantaged as a child, or traumatized, can have a lifelong negative effect. Perhaps some learn to deal with adversity better than others, and some childhood adversity may be important in developing coping skills for adult adversity? The only thing I am really sure of is philosophy made a huge difference in my life and for me, it is everything the Bible is for a Christian.

I am fine with the word "optimist" because when we are optimistic we open doors for good things to happen and when we are pessimistic, we can have a death grip holding those doors closed. It seems to me, right now, most people are nihilistic or pessimistic. Maybe when the pandemic passes our spirit will improve?

Experience (i.e. understanding-based competence), however, is developed through surviving and/or overcoming failure. — 180 Proof

:roll: That is a bit negative isn't it? And what does having an experience have to do with competence? Life is full of awesome experiences, like making love on the beach. Previous experience may make the present experience better but it is not required. :grin: And the experience can be a wonderful memory that lifts our spirits whenever we think of it.

Facts might be important, but perhaps even more important is the spirit of the moment. How we feel. Like if the wave hits at an intimate moment, the couple may think their experience was ruined, or they can grab their blanket and run from the wave laughing. Keeping in mind, this moment can be a long-term memory that again and again manifests feeling and that feeling will define the experience more so than facts.