I love you for saying that! That is exactly what I wish everyone would understand. In many years of trying to get people to understand that, you are the first person to do so.

Yes, everyone is supposed to do the job exactly as the person before and that mentally was not exceptional but in reality, Nazi Germany won the war because what you are talking about is Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens. Every aspect of a job is described in detail and the employee is to do no more nor less than the defined job description.

That policy goes with education for technology and merit hiring. The good side is education for technology and merit hiring, means the poor have a better chance of moving into the middle class. The downside is they can be totally unfit for the job because technological correctness does not mean having the character and personality fit for the job. And things get worse....

Children reared for such a technological society and prepared to follow not to lead. They are prepared to rely on authority, not to think for themselves. They are made to be amoral and impersonal because they are being prepared for a technological society that is impersonal and amoral.

That is what we defended our democracies against, but the system is extremely powerful as it crushes individual liberty and power and those in the seats of power have chosen for power, and we are shocked to have a president who is today's Hitler and has followers who follow his command to literally fight to the death of others and themselves, to keep him in office. We no longer have a sense of personal power, but we can believe we are very powerful when we follow a leader who is popular and powerful. Politics are now reactionary. We have what Germany had.

I don't know if others can find statistics for their local university but here are the statistics for my local university and I am rather alarmed by the huge shift to females. This is a whole lot different from my first college experience when I dropped out to be a wife and mother because that is what females were expected to do, and my father would not have it any other way. I got a C in one class that I stopped attending because the professor had said those of who got married would get a C and I was outraged by that and wanted to test his word.

Years later when I returned to college, I had to do a paper on middle-aged women, and the best research on that subject was done by women. However, the professor insisted we use the abstracts and extremely few males had done research on women, and the work done by women was not accepted in the peer-reviewed abstracts. The professor was aware of the problem, but would not change his requirement. It appears the world is different from what it was 40 years ago.

https://inclusion.uoregon.edu/facts-and-figures

The "University", or as the ancients called it, "the Academy", had never been a place of impartiality. The goal has always been to teach those fortunate, what went according to the intellectual absolute of the time - classical age: moral and tradition, medieval age: metaphysics, and dogma, modern age: reason and logic, contemporary age: knowledge gnosticism, and revisionism -.

And contrary to what many claim, Universities work much more easily and practically when they are homogeneous in thought and purpose.

Something that wants to defend and express to everyone, ends up defending and expressing nothing. — Gus Lamarch

I most know, why do you know something of the history of education? It is my favorite subject and it is so exciting to come across someone who knows something about it.

Thank you. In another forum, a political one, the reaction to what I said would be very different. Folks there would see me as weak and undeserving. I am very glad to have government assistance. The Older Americans Act speaks of older citizens as being entitled, and we had Senior Centers and we have senior housing and nutrition sites and the Senior Companion Program, and we can have free bus service and audit college classes for free, all as benefits of making our working years contribution to society.

The flip side of all those benefits is to enable us to remain participants in society and to continue to make a social contribution. Because of what I get, I am secure and can volunteer. Because I am struggling physically I am very thankful for Social Security and I think it is insane to consider ending it. If I had to work a 40 week, I would be on the streets until I figured out a way to end my suffering. As a volunteer, I can work as much or as little as I want.

I do college classes by buying them from the Great Courses company. I could ride the bus free and audit college classes for free, but I can't keep my mouth shut and I know I would be correcting professors. :rofl: I didn't do well in college many years ago, because I clashed with professors and I am so thankful for the Great Courses and self-education. I am so glad I don't need a degree and employment, to make a contribution to society. I wish everyone was into lifelong-learning and enjoying making a social contribution and evening all this out with assuring everyone decent housing and nutrition and those things that increase our value to be contributing human beings.

Oh my goodness. Check your other thread. While you were working on this post, I was working on a post in your other thread and that one addresses what you said here. :grin: :heart:

I love your example of not taking advantage of others or intentionally trying to get the advantage because I am such a looser. I could be a great salesperson because I know the tricks salespeople use because I have had the training, and by nature I was an attractive person physically and personality, but I am a lousy salesperson because I can not take advantage of someone. I always take "no" for an answer, because if I say "no", I want my "no" respected, and if a salesperson tries to push me beyond "no" I am offended.

I am not a good business person because I give away my service. I love to be needed but don't love taking money for what I do. :lol: I have a pile of money in my kitchen that I must give back to someone who paid me too much for a favor. She knew I would not accept what she gave me so she dropped it in my bag when I was not looking. Something inside me just says I should not accept money for doing a favor. :lol: This goes with my problem with Christianity. I am not Christian but I was strongly influenced by it and I wish I could go for all the money I know I could get but I can't.

Anyway, I am a looser and I can't change this and at the same time be right with me. I blame Bible school for that. :lol: No, in the past women took care of everyone because that is what a good woman did. Once, when I had to support my family I asked for more pay and the woman snapped at me that caregivers put caring for people first. It is terrible for women that people's lives and certainly how they feel, can depend on good givers and yet we pay them very little, not enough to support our families. Teachers and nurses had to get over this barrier when they fought for better working conditions and better pay and we resent them for taking our tax money or what we pay for medical care. But is it right for us to put money first? What does that do to our society?

I am a Democrat and Republicans have a very different point of view. :lol: Republics are best known for being Christians and there is a rumor that Democrats are not Christian. Who is right?

You are so right about throwing people out of institutions and leaving them to fend for themselves without being prepared to do so.

It is not natural for humans to live in huge populations where they are strangers to each other because there are too many people for us to know everyone. Now instead of having personal relationships with everyone, we are impersonal and sometimes dehumanizing. This can be a good or a bad thing.

In a small town where everyone knows Tom is limited in what he can do, people may go out of their way to create jobs for him or to buy what he is selling. However, if Sarah has a baby out of wedlock, she and her child may be shunned and they are much better off in a large city.

Even better than a large city is a large city that has a seaport and an influx of people from around the world because such cities will be cosmopolitan. The center of a large continent will not be cosmopolitan.

I think we might want to be aware of what our environment has to do with our values and behaviors. In a small town, people are more apt to help each other, but that includes protecting the community by ostracizing undesirable people. In a large city where people are strangers to each other, we may not get the help we need, without the government providing assistance, but we also can avoid the ostracizing of the small town. However, because we are strangers to each other, there is more reliance on background checks, before we rent a home or get a job or get a loan, and this can marginalize people which is as bad as being ostracized. Such marginalizing leads to poverty and other social problems.

The world never had so many people, and we never had as much opportunity as we have now. I am shocked by how we talk about child care as if we have always relied on paid child care providers, instead of mothers who were forced to stay home for social and economic reasons. In our news is how awful it is that mothers must give up their jobs to care for their children, and that child care providers don't have jobs because we are not leaving our children in child care centers. In my old books, I read how institutions can not do for a child what a parent does, because of the difference in the relationship with a paid person, or with the parent, and today this is not in our thoughts! :scream: But nothing is more important to our humanness than how we are raised. I am not sure institutionalizing our children is a good thing, any more than backgrounds are a good thing?

I think I got a little off-topic. Bottom line, our lives are about our relationships and the world is changing and we are learning as we go.

To me this subject seems the same as your thread about discrimination. :lol: You make me laugh as I think of how silly these discriminations are and it tickles me to see both forms of discrimination as a result of reading both your threads this morning.

Of course, the form of an argument is important for credibility. If you saw the political forum I am involved with, that statement would make more sense. Insulting someone is not at all like the debate of which you speak, and it screams some people are just reacting and not actually thinking through anything. However, we might be patient with these people and ask questions that might help them think something through. But some people just don't want to think things through and it is best to avoid them as we would avoid a dog that attacks people. The bottom line is not their technological skill, but their character and how they treat others.

As for those ideas we are passionate about, I don't like discussing religion with Christians and unless religion is being debated, I normally just smile at the Christian comments and keep my mouth shut, however, if people are debating religion, then I am compelled to argue against Christianity. I am compelled to do this because I am passionate about democracy and religion with a God who has favorite people because that religion is not compatible with democracy. This is difficult because historically Christians have promoted democracy, they have also discriminated against people who are different, and opposed science when it goes against what they believe. The sun shines equally on everyone and believing a God has favorite people can be a problem to democracy and world peace.

Thank you for expanding our awareness of prejudice and including people who are overweight. I think we could add cognitively challenged people to the list of people who we discriminated against. In my state, we even sterilized them without their consent, but that would now be illegal. I and have heard hard horror stories of terrible things people have said to someone with a disability or a Japanese and Caucasian mixed child. The people who said the terrible things seemed to assume they had the right to have the world to themselves, without people who offend them because they look different. A mindset I absolutely do not understand.

We have more people moving around the world than ever before. I wonder if we will get used to people looking different and overcome our prejudices? I think where I live we have become more accepting of differences but on TV the news of other places makes me think there are some places that are not accepting of people who are different.

↪Athena Athena, we were just talking about serfs and slaves yesterday after watching Simple History's video on "Life in Medieval Times"! We also got into a discussion about political power gradually accruing to the peasant class over centuries. We do a lot of drawing contests, and the one elective they go to every day (I have them all day except for one period is more exact) is computerized automated design (CAD). I highlight classical music with Doodelchaos's awesome Linerider videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIz3klPET3o&ab_channel=DoodleChaos
and similar stuff. I try and give them a rounded education. — RogueAI

Can I access the "Life in Medieval Times" that you used in class? What was said of feudalism? According to the information I have, the Catholic church attempted to maintain a human morality that was not maintained towards the end of feudalism and not at all maintained during industrialization.

What was said of serfdom and the struggle to stay out of serfdom towards the end of the Hundred's Year War and end of the plagues that wiped out the population, resulting in not enough people to farm, kind of the same reasons Rome became Feudal forcing people to stay on the land and farm. The story is complex and I don't think 6th graders are ready for all the complexity, but as we deal with racism today, that piece of history seems very important.

My favorite teacher was my 6th-grade teacher. He had lived on an Indian reservation and attempted to bring that influence into the classroom. After teaching of the native American organization of chiefs and families, he had us spend the day outside creating a native American village. I think it would be really cool to do the same with a middle-age feudal system manor.

The art/musical is exciting. I can see the introduction of math concepts but they flicked past so fast it was somewhat interesting but lacked meaning. I hope it is complimented with lessons that fill in the meaning. Have you seen the Flatland movies? My great-grandson very much enjoyed them and he also was fascinated by the videos about origami "Between the Lines". It is sad so many children avoid math because it is so fascinating! It really needs to be taught with art and music.

The book "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe" is beyond 6th grade interest but a teacher familiar with this book can tie math to science in very interesting ways. https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=3JwMAwAAQBAJ&gl=us&hl=en-US&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKT-FDR-na-us-1000189-Med-pla-bk-Evergreen-Jul1520-PLA-eBooks_Science&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwsf4wfvG7gIVMQV9Ch0ifQ45EAQYASABEgJeHvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks, Athena. I teach 6th grade, which is all subjects. I have the same group of kids all day (virtually, now). — RogueAI

What do you mean by all subjects? How much time do you spend on art and music? What history are you teaching? I don't mean to be mean, but I strongly favor all grade school education being liberal education and that is not what is happening anywhere I know if except maybe some private schools.

Nothing is more important to me than education. If your class addresses the issue of slavery, please, please explain serfs. (subject of thread) Feudalism is the enslavement of White people and we are lying to ourselves to believe it was any better than the slavery of people of color. Even people of color had slaves because back in the day that is what people did and discipline was kept by whipping people. Captains of ships kept order by whipping people. That was just the way it was and I don't think we are too far from that today because we maintain autocratic industry, authority over disposable people, and education for technology has always been for slaves. Liberal education is for free men.

I watch shows about children through history and around the world today, fighting to get an education, while our own children do not desire education and I am sure many have not followed through with homeschooling. Have you seen a copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference in Portland, Oregon? To me, that was one of the most important books ever written. We taught every child a set of American values, knowing they would help their immigrant parents become Americanized and this was particularly important as we mobilized for war. That was the first time we added vocational training to education and our middle class is the result of that education. I wish every school had a statue of liberty, holding a book for knowledge and a torch that is the enlightenment of knowledge.

I think that the difference between scorn against an idea and a person is complex. I once was in a situation in which a white woman commented to a black woman, who was dressed in white trousers, 'I have never seen you looking so clean before.' The black woman spoke of being so hurtful, and it incorporate ideas about dirt and cleanliness, which are often projected onto others. I think this is getting into the social anthropology of prejudice, which involves cultural ideas. — Jack Cummins

Israel and Palestine have this problem. The Jews comment about how the Palestinians stink and believing the Palestinians to be inferior justifies treating them very badly which of course leads to Palestinians hating those who treat them so badly.

Yes, it is horrible when teachers and other people just seem hostile and sometimes we don't always know why, and are left wondering. We can try to put it down to certain characteristics, everything from race, gender, dislike of short or tall people, or hair colour etc. It is sometimes not clear.

That is where it gets complicated because if, for example, a black person gets treated badly it can be say the other person is racist. But, it would be hard to prove in a court of law, unless it is overt. — Jack Cummins

The greatest discrimination is against poor people and conversely against rich people. We are perversely waging war on each other, rich against poor. And teachers in inner-city low-income neighborhoods are in hell. I attended one of the worst schools and I feel just terrible for the teachers who tried so hard to give us a good education, in such a terrible economic and social situation. Teachers in one of the schools I attended actually suffered post-trauma syndrome. Today in it is our representatives living in fear of their lives because of Trump's leadership, but back in the day, it was the teachers living in fear. In such bad circumstances, the relationship between students and teachers is not going to be good.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” ( John 1:1 )

The implication of these two passages together, seems to be that the Word, the Creator and the Creation are inseparable - and consequently, it would have been open to the Church to accept Galileo's "hypo-deductive methodology" (scientific method) as the means to discern the word of God made manifest in Creation.

Had they done so, a scientific understanding of reality would have been pursued, and had the moral authority of God's word. Technology would have been applied in accord with a scientifically valid understanding of reality, and we would have made a paradise of the world.

Instead, science was decried as a heresy, even while technology was used to drive the industrial revolution. So science and technology was applied for military and industrial power and profit - with no regard to a scientific understanding of reality. We applied the wrong technologies for the wrong reasons, and are now barrelling toward extinction. — counterpunch

I love what you said. :clap:

Here is the crux to the problem. Maybe if in Galileo's day the Church had embraced his vision of reality history would have been dramatically different, but it is the protestants who developed technology and industry and they embrace science, as you said the church should have embraced science, until everyone realized the conflicts between science and religious mythology and then it was science that had to be closed out of our consciousness and this continues to this day. There was also a huge moral conflict with Prostestism. Peasants supported the great wealth of industry and they died very young, making Protestantism less moral than Catholicism which prevented economic growth.

While Catholicism was economically bust and crushed the development of capitalism and independent entrepreneurship. The problem is with the beginning of the God of Abraham religions and the notion that God is in control and our birth determines our destiny. The Church supported the feudal system which is slavery because serfs are owned and we are lying to ourselves to believe it was not as bad as the slavery of people of color. We can not judge the past with today's consciousness because we can not not think of what we know today, but back in the day there was no concept of industry and capitalism, and Christianity did not lead us to science, but the pagan temples the Christians destroyed were places of math and science. The crusades slowly brought that ancient knowledge into the present, and the middle ages gave way to modernization.

Some argue the middle ages were not dark but they were very dark. Yes, there was technological progress but that is not science!! Scientific thinking had to wait for rediscovery of ancient Greek and Roman documents.

.

If Christians want me to change my mind about them, they're going to have to do better than pass the buck for the witch hunts. — baker

Who do you think is a Christian? :rofl:

On some courses I have been on, work is labeled with a candidate number instead of names to make marking so much fairer. — Jack Cummins

I love that solution. :clap:

I had a teacher write a huge red F covering my work because she was angry with me. :lol: I got her back. I refused to cooperate with her and of course, I didn't pass, but she didn't win either.

When I'm grading students, and it's a tough call on the grade, I often find myself giving the black students a lower grade. I catch myself doing this all the time. — RogueAI

Good for you being so self-aware. I feel a desire to give you defense. Like if I were a teacher and had Christians in my classroom, I would also assume there is a lot they do not know and their parents do not want them to think about. This so evident in college when Christian belief made some of science a difficult subject.

In the past, we did more to transmit a culture to our young, and this was pretty limited to the culture of White people. People of color were likely to score lower on IQ test because they had less exposure to that culture. It appears we have been dealing with this problem with education for technology that does not transmit culture to anyone, but just because public education isn't transmitting culture, it does not mean parents are not transmitting culture. What subject are you teaching?

Oh, that's cute! I haven't heard this one yet. — baker

I am quite sure there are many things you have not heard yet. What concerns me is I don't think you have a desire to learn of things you do not already know.

Well, you can make up your own religion; or, if you're going to discuss religion, work with the claims that a particular religion actually makes. — baker

:rofl: Thank you for a good laugh. I am doing my best to work with the God of Abraham mythology. Perhaps the question of what a god can do should not be asked if a person can not argue that a god can not violate universal laws nor the will of man. Considering we are dealing with a pandemic and global climate change that is leading to extinctions, we might be interested in how things work. Sacrificing animals, saying prayers, and burning candles will not make things better. A god is not going to save our sorry asses and give us another planet like earth so we can destroy that one too. We need science to do better.

↪Athena I prefer the words reality and science. Any implication to God is pure speculation. But if reality is Created, it follows that science is the word of God. Or logos! — counterpunch

Almost but I am not comfortable with the notion that humans can know the word of God. We discover universal laws but the words we use to explain those laws are our own and our understanding will remain incomplete.

I think it is so important that in the beginning of the God of Abraham was a concept of an unknown god, beyond our comprehension. But in our humanness, we wanted a knowable, personal god. The result was deifying Jesus. Jesus was tailor-made for us and the jealous, revengeful war god became a personal, forgiving, and loving god. :heart:

But I lived in the sierra mountain range where heavy snow makes survival a challenge, and I know mother nature does not care if we live or die. She is not personal. She is just busy doing her own thing and what we do with our free will is up to us. Fortunately, we come with pretty good survival instincts but that is not always enough. Figuring out how to survive and evolving this into scientific knowledge is something only humans can do, giving them godlike powers. :wink:

In standard monotheism, the laws of the universe don't precede God. — baker

Do you mean I have to believe something that is unbelievable because that is what people who deify Jesus have done?

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?
— Athena
They were burning people at the stakes and threatening them with eternal damnation. It worked, in that the population at large acted in line with the way the Church wanted them to.

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?
You were praising the ancient Greeks and dissing the ancient Romans -- while using Roman script.
Rather ironic, don't you think? — baker

Yes, people were ignorant and superstitious and yes the Church attempted to create social order, but if we are speaking of the Catholics, they were not in favor of claiming people are witches and burning them at the stake. That was more a protestant thing and there were so many different groups of protestants they never had the power the Catholics had. Actually, the witch hunts were more secular than religious. Someone wrote a book about witches and educated people used the book to hunt witches. Here is a marvelous explanation of why witch hunts spread like a pandemic.....

“Similar to how contemporary Republican and Democrat candidates focus campaign activity in political battlegrounds during elections to attract the loyalty of undecided voters, historical Catholic and Protestant officials focused witch-trial activity in confessional battlegrounds during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation to attract the loyalty of undecided Christians,” write the study’s authors, Peter T. Leeson, an economist at George Mason University, and Jacob W. Russ, an economist at Bloom Intelligence, a big-data analysis firm. — Gwynn Guilford

Perhaps you did not know, the Romans such as Cicero were educated in Athens. Rome basically adopted Greek technology and ignored its culture, but a good example of influence of the Greeks is Rome's attempt to be a Republic and the Bible. The original Bible being written by converted Greeks claiming Jesus is logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe.

The Greeks played a huge part in ending the Christian war against Christians. As you know they were killing each other as some believed Jesus was the son of God and others thought Jesus is God. The Greeks had no problem with a god taking human form. Romans didn't think anyone became a god until death transformed a human into a god. They lived next door to the Egyptians whose pharaohs were gods. The point is the Greeks had a better language for defying Jesus, and the Romans could not do this until having a word for the Greek concepts.

er, no. If you can do anything, you can do anything. — Bartricks

There is no human nor god that can break the laws of the universe.

↪Athena It seems we agree - I don't know by how much. But I view science as valid knowledge of reality/Creation. I don't know if God exists - but if he does, understanding the Creation in which we are placed, and acting according to true knowledge of Creation is surely the path to God, for reality is, in effect - God's word made manifest. And worse case scenario - we'd make the world into a paradise and secure a prosperous sustainable future! — counterpunch

I like the word logos better than the word God. God implies a personality like Zues, or the jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing God of the Bible. I do not believe such a god exists. However, there is universal order. I will use the word God when referring to universal order/logos because that is the word others use when speaking of the ultimate power.

However, logos can only do what is possible. Logos can not do what is impossible. I guess what god can do depends on if we are speaking reality or fantasy.

What makes something true is how well it works.
— Athena
Then threatening people with eternal hellfire and burning them at the stakes are good practices, for they work!

I do not know the first person who said "look for God in everyone", I just know doing so has a positive effect.
Yes, the Holy Inquisition were "looking for God in everyone" as well.

In the short term the Nazis were very successful, but today, Germany acknowledges the wrong done to Jews, and through education attempts to right the wrong and prevent it from happening again. The US occupies land held by indigenous people, and we have learned they were right about our planet being a living organism and that we need to protect ecosystems so they work as evolved to work.
But today is not yet the end of the story.
Take Nazism, for example: it's being rehabilitated. If the current trends are anything to go by, it might not take that much before it rises to power again.

The Romans conquered the Greeks but it is the Greeks who live on in our understanding of democracy and through the philosophy we share and science we develop.
Read again. Whose letters are you using to write this? — baker

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?

Even the gods must follow the laws of nature. Logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. The gods do not manifest logos but are subject to it and science is discovering the reason. cause of, manifestation/ effect.

Conscience is coming out of science/knowledge.

What makes something true is how well it works. I do not know the first person who said "look for God in everyone", I just know doing so has a positive effect.

The Neanderthals became extinct except as part of some people's DNA. It is believed the genes of the second migration of humans out of Africa, replaced the Neanderthals because they had better social organization. I think humans right now are working with a faulted concept of reality and that this is changing through our abundance and science.

In the short term the Nazis were very successful, but today, Germany acknowledges the wrong done to Jews, and through education attempts to right the wrong and prevent it from happening again. The US occupies land held by indigenous people, and we have learned they were right about our planet being a living organism and that we need to protect ecosystems so they work as evolved to work.

The Romans conquered the Greeks but it is the Greeks who live on in our understanding of democracy and through the philosophy we share and science we develop.

How rapidly we move into a New Age, depends on our ability to imagine it because it is as we think it.

What Is The Münchhausen Trilemma?
NOVEMBER 16, 2018 BY IDEASINHAT
WHAT IS THE MÜNCHHAUSEN TRILEMMA?
The Münchhausen trilemma is a problem in the branch of philosophy known as epistemology; the Münchhausen trilemma, also known as Agrippa’s trilemma, reveals that any theory of knowledge cannot be certain and that all beliefs are unjustified.

In other words, justified beliefs, which are beliefs founded on reason and logic, cannot be obtained, as the Münchhausen trilemma demonstrates the impossibility of justified premises.

There have been numerous attempts to establish justified beliefs, but none have been satisfactory thus far. And so, the Münchhausen trilemma thought experiment is still a problem for any theory of knowledge — IDEASINHAT

That is about like saying we can not catch a fish because it does not stay in the same place.

May I offer the concept of democracy? It is rule by reason and we come to that reason by arguing until we have the best reasoning. This process does not stop but is ongoing. At any time, anyone can argue the established reasoning is not the best reasoning and then trying to persuade everyone of better reasoning. That is why we have a governing body all the time, instead of establishing what will be, and then simply enforced the status quo.

I will argue at a given moment in time, agreement on the best reasoning is justified. It just isn't unchanging like a holy book.

Speaking of children's TV programs, Sesame Street was amazing at crashing through the prejudice barriers and creating a place where puppets looked different from each other and had different personalities and people representing different gene types normalize people of all colors and shapes living together in a community. Before we can manifest it, we have to imagine it and that is what Sesame Street did, help us imagine a community with people who look different and all get along.

You may be interested in the Virtues Project.

The Virtues Project™ is a global grassroots initiative to inspire the practice of virtues in everyday life, sparking a global revolution of kindness, justice, and integrity in more than 100 countries through Facilitators, Master Facilitators, Champions and Virtues Connections.

The Virtues Project empowers individuals to live more authentic meaningful lives, families to raise children of compassion and integrity, educators to create safe, caring, and high performing learning communities, and leaders to encourage excellence and ethics in the work place. It has inspired and mobilized people worldwide to commit acts of service and generosity, to heal violence with virtues.

The Five Strategies™ awaken the gifts of character, through inspiring programs, books, and materials that help us to remember who we really are and to live by our highest values.

The Virtues Project was founded in Canada in 1991 by Linda Kavelin-Popov, Dr. Dan Popov and John Kavelin. It was honored by the United Nations during the International Year of the Family as a "model global program for families of all cultures".
https://virtuesproject.com/homepage.html — The Virtues Project

I have the 52 pack of virtue cards and have used them with friends and children. I hope to return to sharing the cards when the pandemic passes. They can be used as morning meditations, or whenever having a problem. My friends and I gathered once a week, we thought of something troubling us, and then drew a card out of a bag. Each of us would read our card and thought about it, then we took turns sharing our card and saying how we thought that particular virtue would help with what was concerning us. You can see the cards at the link.

For the children, I bought a book of virtue stories and I have DVD's of virtue stories which are the old classics. I can't imagine not reading to children because that was so basic, but the DVD's are wonderful too. The Public Broadcasting Station has programs for children teaching the virtues but I have a problem with them because it is usually kids behaving like adults and they do not present the relationships of older people with normal children. Not that long ago, Public Broadcasting had shows with adults and children in their correct positions, often in family relationships. Does it seem that is now outdated? Mr. Rogers was a favorite and we still honor him.

I would say that prejudice is about visible and invisible differences and beliefs about superiority.
As George Orwell said in 'Animal Farm':
'ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.' — Jack Cummins

The little boy saved his town by sticking his thumb in the hole of the dam. :grin: Oh dear, I think it is the matter of the heart and that I was blessed with a heart full of love. I was blessed by my grandmother who was a school teacher when teachers believed it was the purpose of teachers to help each child discover his/her talents and interest. Democracy is about everyone working together and each one of us has an important part to play, even if the best we can do is stick our thumb in the dam until someone gets there and to fix the dam.

We used to tell our children moral stories or what some call folk tales, so they would learn virtues and moral thinking. Perhaps science can help us here? The very big things like huge trees or elephants depend on very small things, such as microbes and insects that manage the environment and make life possible. We all have a part to play.

Just because something can modify doesn't mean that it necessarily will modify given instinct. We don't really control our immediate responses. Sure we can try to do things to change them but there's no guarantee they'll succeed. Personally, I've had immediate negative conscious responses towards members of my own ethnic group as well as others so I guess I'm just basically racist against humanity at this point. — BitconnectCarlos

I believe reason and culture override instinct. We can all learn virtues and good manners if they are taught. That was the original purpose of education, and we need to get back to it.

Civilization means to make others as ourselves and since mankind sat around campfires they invent mythology and passed it on from one generation to the next. The purpose of mythology is to create a uniting story and transition youth to adults. Education for technology does not transmit a culture, but education for democracy does. May I suggest we return to liberal education with the goal of creating a better human experience for everyone. Technology is important. We could not support the huge earth population we have without it, but it is not the only thing that is important. Learning to live with each other is also important.

I understand that you are someone who is not racist. I was not brought up to be racist, but I grew up in an area which was white. I played with the children who were black or Asian but did see them being treated badly. One of my Asian friends got knocked unconscious while walking home from school.

I am also half Irish and when my dad first came to England he felt that he experience some racism against Irish people, so it is not straightforward . — Jack Cummins

I remember hearing constantly about the violence between the Irish and the British and it seemed all around the world people somehow people imaged a difference between themselves and "those people".
It amazed me! It still blows my mind. Even when people look the same they can imagine there is an important difference between people. Like if they go to war, how do they know who is one of us and who is one of "those people" when everyone looks the same? That is very creative isn't it, to believe they are not one of us? It certainly is not logical. We all share this planet and it will be as we make it. Why would we choose war over brotherly love and @baker word kumbaya? :brow:

There are ways for people to live harmoniously together: such as under tyrants; or when everyone knows their place and minds their own business. It doesn't make for a kumbaya-happy picture, of course, but it's harmonious.

Prejudice only begins to matter when an egalitarian social order is being imposed on people. — baker

Can I add to what said my grandmother's rules because I think they eliminate social problems?

1. We respect all people because we are respectful people. It doesn't matter who the other person is because no one determines how we behave but ourselves.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

2. We do everything with integrity.

Then there is the commandment, look for God in everyone and "there but for the grace of God so I". We are all in this together so it behooves us to make things as pleasant as we can. :wink: I will do what I can to get to kumbaya-happy.

I am white and really do not believe I was prejudiced against anyone until having bad experiences. The first time I saw people of color, they did a musical performance at my school and I loved them. I gave them a standing ovation and was shocked and embarrassed because I was the only one standing. I thought something was wrong with the White students who did not give colored students the standing ovation they deserved. Really? My mother was a singer and when someone gives a good performance we should show our appreciation and the people of color seemed so happy and friendly and did such a good performance, I wanted to be one of them, not an uptight and unfriendly White.

I gravitate towards people from other countries and have discovered people of color from Africa are not angry towards Whites as people of color who lived in some of the United States may be very angry. I think we have a difficult situation in the US because anger is very part of the problem.

I think it is helpful to look for the beauty in people. Now that implies prejudice as we discriminate what is beautiful and what is not, but at least it crosses the racial barriers. So if I add things up, the musical performance, meeting very nice people from Africa, and enjoying beauty, I would not say I am not prejudiced against people of color, but I am careful because I am aware of how angry some people are. :lol: Loving to meet new people has meant stepping into good situations as well as some not so good situations. It depends on where the person comes from more than the color of the skin.

Finally, I have a great-grandson who has dark skin and black kinky hair, and obviously, he is one of us. The color of his skin does not make him someone who is not one of us. He is family and you can't be closer than that. We share the same genes for goodness sake. It seems obvious to me the color of the skin does not matter. It is just the color of the skin. In India, people have many shades of color and they are all one, Indian. In time the people of the US may look like the people of India. As long as they are democratic I don't care if some are White and some have permanent tans. What is most to me is the values of democracy, not the shade of the skin.

I have been told he will do counseling now. Actually, we have heard quite a bit about children having a problem because of the fight to open schools. A lot of children just are not doing their school work and we know they are having mental issues. We all are. Then the other side argues the health risks are just too great to open our schools, but I think the Catholic school has remained open? It is a real tug of war about which is the greatest risk. I think we need some structure and social contact.

Our schools are doing online schooling but I think we are about to learn the importance of social contact. The magazine I bought explains shared memory. It is amazing but our thinking has more to do with our group than we have realized. We don't pay as much attention to something that is not a shared social experience.

For example, if someone is talking about the experience of a group that I am not a part of, I really don't care. Please, don't talk to me about the problems football players are having, because I am not a sports fan and really do not care. I know I do not care as much about what is happening to people on the other side of the world as I care about what is happening in my own neighborhood. Those are big and obvious, but how about learning math? If the people you associate with smoke you are likely to smoke; if they learn math you are likely to pay attention to math. Isolated children don't have the group stimulus to learn. They are not carried along because that is what everyone is doing, and if their parents are not engaging and involved with the child's learning because this is really something the parent enjoys, if the parent really hates school work and tells the child to do the school work but does not become part of the learning, the poor child is going to hate the chore, instead of wanting to keep up with what everyone else is doing.

I am reading of social media and memes and I am excited to think some creative person might intentionally create positive memes and flood social media with them. I think this might be like having a parade of skeletons and baked goods of death symbols and music and dance, bringing people together. That is what a meme does. It gives people a sense of social connection.

We need to invent celebrations and memes that work with our human nature. We must stop ignoring our humanness as we have been doing in the US. Reading the classics gave us unity. They prepared us to be adults and to cope with life. I am now understanding this in a whole new way and why that is so important. And Jack, if it were not for your thread and replies I would NOT have done this thinking and I would not have realized what one piece of information has to do with another. I would not have this joy of realizing something in a new way. On my gosh, humans really need each other. :grin:

The poor adolescents who are struggling to understand life and are isolated and without the groups support we all need. I get it.

:worry: I can not have the effect I want to have on my granddaughter and her son, because I am old and not one of them. I studied gerontology years ago and just now I have realized the answer to one of the most important questions about if old people withdraw or are they push out? They are dropped out like the old shirt that was once a favorite shirt but is no longer in style. As much as that shirt was loved, it is not what is wanted today.

I have many college courses on DVD's and Cd's and audio tapes, from the Great Courses company. I have been listening to a 3 part series on the early middle age, middle age and late middle age. Right now the lecture is about the the long period when plagues swept across Europe. About every 6 years, give or take a few years, they were hit by a deadly pandemic. What impressed me, after several pandemics they reacted as Mexicans have with a celebration of the Day of the Dead and a parade of skeletons, decorated skulls, etc.. When Europeans came to the American continents they brought disease and disseminated the native populations and as the people in Europe they came to celebrating death.

Of course individuals reacted to all the dying differently. Just about everyone assumed this was the end of the world. Some hunkered down to protect themselves and they became very frugal, leading to some accumulating money that was nice to have as estates were left vacant. Others took the attitude, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we all die.

I bought a special edition Scientific American magazine that is about research into things like conspiracy theory and social media. When people are traumatized as all the deaths are effecting many people, and uncertainty is increased, such as loosing a job and not knowing what will happen next, people are more prone to believing conspiracy theories. It gives them something to pin all their anxiety on, and perhaps a sense that the threat can be overcome. In short, getting crazy is a coping skill.

I am really worried that my 13 year old great grandson has taken a turn for the worst and in his isolation is looping negative thoughts about no one liking him and he can't do anything right, and even suicide. His mother works and he is left alone way too much with nothing positive to focus on. We used to be good buddies and have wonderful adventures in nature and with informative DVD's and science experiments. But he hit that age when he doesn't want to be with Grandma anymore. Great, but school is closed and he can't run around with friends. Mom is not getting it. She thinks her son is hearing voices and going crazy because something is wrong with his brain, and she gets furious with me when I point out the problem is isolation and nothing to do that moves his mind in a positive direction as you are doing, Jack. I wish he would read the classics and learn how heroes in literature deal with adversity but he is unwilling to do that. I am sure depression has eaten up his motivation.

I think it is a mistake to leave the young to figure things for themselves without guidance and encouragement in these times. They can't even learn from each other because they are isolated. Any suggestions?

I see everyone is speaking of how the pandemic is affecting them. I have had my ups and downs and thankfully mostly ups. But I am an old goat with a lot of experience with adversity and I am not looking for a mate or a good career, so I think it is a whole lot easier for me. My life is behind me and all there is to do now is keep myself happy. But I worry so for the children!

The children in my family are having a real hard time. The youngest one has been separated from her mother and is not happy. The family has risked visits after my granddaughter tests negative, but we still know there is a risk not just to the family but to everyone where the youngest one lives. I can not think of a crueler life experience than this one. It is not as traumatic as war, but in war, the moment of fighting passes. This pandemic is going on and on exhausting our morale.

Ain't that the truth. That's why I'm all for removing superficial and archaic barriers.

This virus is an opportunity for us to experience how alike we all are and how connected we truly are as we all deal with this mindless thing that's affecting us all regardless of race, denomination, status, age, gender.

But of course, we're seeing groups trying to again highlight differences during this time. Which is unfortunate. — 8livesleft

I so enjoyed watching the Public BroadcastingChannel Yesterday. There was a celebration of music in the evening and it was uplifting. All but one President stood together, democratic and republican declaring unity. That was such a happy sight. The leadership is now of unity and hope.

Leaders are as strong as their followers make them and the music of the time and media are very important to this. Many songs have been written during these hard times like the songs written during the Great Depression. Here a favorite one titled "Happy Days are Here Again". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg

The US is dealing with a history of racism and we have a history of White people who tried to right that wrong, so 8Livesleft, I hope the talk of the problem is shifted with the change in leadership and songs that lift our spirits and we talk about our history of White people who did not try to correct the wrong and how this is the time to overcome the problem of racism and the paranoia created by 9/11. I do not the one-sided talk of racism we have this past year.

↪Athena
The Enlightenment was never complete. Certainly, there was a rebuttal of absolute religious authority, the divine rights of kings, and a movement toward democracy and sovereignty invested in the people. But philosophy, literature and film have merely confirmed the Church's position on science - as a heresy, established with the trial of Galileo in 1634.

Sure, science can be used to surround us with technological miracles, but is afforded no respect or authority. From Descartes' subjectivism, to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein - 1818, right through to present day blockbuster films - all we see is the mad scientist, stringing together some world ending abomination unto God; depicted as either a careless fool or an evil genius - that only the flag waving, God loving hero can save us from.

But here's the problem, the climate and ecological crisis is a consequence of applying technology as directed by ideology - rather than, applying technology as suggested by a scientific understanding of reality. It's not a matter of morality - it's a matter of truth, and science has proven the truth of its ideas endlessly with technology that works.

But hey, maybe if we pray hard enough - snap off a few more salutes to the old skull and crossbones, climate change will just go away! — counterpunch

You are right, but could use a little more information. What is a matter of truth is a matter of morality. The line of reasoning for this conclusion is Greek and Roman. This predates Christianity, a mental disease that has us really messed up because a false belief blocks us from knowing truth and in the US this is a serious cultural problem affecting even non-Christians.

Starting with math, the Greeks got really hung up on doing things right and understanding why it is the right thing to do. That is Egypt had practical math and the Greeks learned from them, but they were not content with it works. They wanted proves. Now we come to logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. The Bible says Jesus is logos because it was written by Greeks. With logos as the most divine power, we ask, why should we do this and not that and this is as serious as finding proves for maths. What is the reasoning, the moral choice? This is a life or death issue because the wrong choice leads to destruction, your environmental problem, and drug addiction, and all other problems resulting from bad information and bad decisions as surely as jumping off a tall building leads to death because of gravity.

When we had liberal education based the Greek and Roman classics, we had education for good moral judgment and we told children folk tales and then asked, what is the moral that story. I stress this question is about the reasoning and the reasoning is about universal law. The Little Red did not share her bread because no one helped her bake it. The Fox didn't get the grapes because he gave up and comforted himself by deciding they were probably sour anyway. But the Little Engine that could made it over the hill, because he did not give up. The moral being a matter cause and effect, and education for good moral judgment being essential to our liberty and democracy.

In 1958 we discontinued that education and left moral training up to the church and now we are in total crisis! Education for technology is not education for science. Liberal education is education for science and it comes complete with good moral judgment. Read Cicero, he tells us no animal sacfrice, burning of candles, saying prayers will make things good, when we make the wrong decision, because what will be is the consequence of our action. Not the will of a capricious god influenced by our piety. The rule of reason, logos. This predates Christianity and a book written by Greeks call the Bible.

Cicero believed that reason is the highest good, for “what is there, I will not say in man, but in the whole of heaven and earth, more divine than reason?” 12 The importance of reason is emphasized because it is present both in humanity and in God.Aug 31, 2018

Cicero's Natural Law and Political Philosophy | Libertarianism ...