In a post yesterday I was saying that it is very sad that people are starting to expect books, music and other works for free, without appreciating of the artists' need to make money to live.

However, what you are saying about community arts is very important. I do believe that children and adults should have access to being able to participate in art based activities. Just before lockdown I was attending a creative writing group at a library and had just discovered an art group, which I attended once, in a museum. These were free. I do believe that it is important that people, children and adults, are provided to have access to the arts. It is such an outlet for people and I hope that after the pandemic these groups will be part of culture. I would also hope that there is public funding for such activities, rather than them just having to be staffed by volunteers. — Jack Cummins

Absolutely, that is the very meaning of being civilized! The enlightenment was about lifting everyone out of the dirt and taking us from being worms to honorable and dignified human beings. It became what we call liberal or classical education bring the world's best literature and best philosophy to everyone through public education.

I don't want anyone to think I am against technology. I am sure it is an important part of the New Age. However, we went a little overboard with thinking technology would resolve all our problems. Technology is only a tool and how we use it depends on what kind of human beings we are. And I must say, your threads are excellent for getting us to think about such things. :heart: :flower:

I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.

Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction. — Jack Cummins

In this pandemic, we must realize we are in this together. Separated by distance does mean we are not in this together. The whole world is having the same experience, although in different ways.

Trump was the worst possible leader the US could have had at this time, assuring the worst possible outcome of the pandemic because he pitted us against the media and against each other, assuring the spread of the virus because of the large number of people who refuse to follow any of the guidelines.

I do think there are positive effects of the pandemic because of more compassion and a strong motivation to do better. However, I am afraid of the impact Trump has had on us. On the other hand, what he has done to us is so bad we must seek a solution, so even that bad can lead to a better tomorrow.

The more everyone realizes we are in this together the better the whole world will be. It is far better to identify a pandemic where it originates and throw everything we can at stopping it. That can mean being sure people on the other side of the world have clean water and are will feed and have medical care because their problem can become our problem. Do you get the very real meaning that we are all in this together? To a virus, we are all the same and it does not respect boundaries.

Could there be an experience of the brain dying? I guess that is the question. — Pantagruel

That is called dementia of Alzheimer's disease.

the hippie says since everything is nothing but frequencies and vibrations or energy slowed down, everything is alive in its own way even if it can’t be expressed in what we consider or acknowledge as “alive”

may be bullshit, but it’s pretty! — Ignance

I hardly think it is bull shit because it is true, however, our understanding of it is inadequate.

I don't have any straightforward answer for this. Still, culture is constituted of individuals. The relation between the top-down effects culture has on individuals and those individuals have upon a culture is complex, to put it mildly. Bare minimum I can do, I'm thinking, is preserve my own way of valuing things as a constituent of the culture I am a part of. And of course, engage in conversations such as this. There's too much egotism that accompanies the prevailing materialist perspectives of the day, I'm thinking. Again, with this materialism being perpetuated by the overwhelming sum of (commercial) art we are exposed to. This, in turn, entailing not enough thought as regards others and what they require to produce those things that enrich our own lives. And this is a hard tide to turn, especially in the short run. — javra

You are Jack are having an absolutely marvelous discussion that I wish all of us would have! Before the 1958 education act that focused the US intensely on technology, children had art and music classes. I think for the sake of humanity and civilization we seriously need to return to liberal education and art is very much a part of science, and music can put our brains in rhythm for increased learning. The positive effect of the arts means this should be supported by government and it most certainly should be in our school system. If the government made that decision, teachers would be taught to value the arts in education. This is just a snowball that gets bigger and can move a civilization as 1960-70 art and music us until the impact of the 1958 had its full effect.

The music I am listening to now is supposed to Serotonin, Dopamine, Endorphin Release Music, Release Negativity. What if as an intentional effect of cultivating children they learned the effect of the arts can have on them physically and with that knowledge had true liberty to chose to have want influences them. Might we lift children out of poverty with such knowledge?

:lol: Calling rap rape was a Freudian slip. Unfortunately, when I think of rap I think of the anger directed against women expressed in some rape music. I know not all rap is hateful and I am not sure if our freedom of speech should cover hatefulness. In another post, you mention Hip Hop and I saw a show explaining the idealistic social intent of Hip Hop. I have seen rap with idealistic intent too from around the world.

That made me think of steampunk and the clothing that goes with that. All of the forms of music go with a dress style and perhaps a lifestyle.

Art and music are food for our souls. It enhances our life decisions to be calm and relax or hyped up, to be energized and angry, or calm and peaceful. It literally has a biological effect on us and some claim music has a biological effect on plants as well.

If something is beautiful to us or absolutely awful depends on how harmonious or symmetrical it is. Our brains are wired to chose patterns that have harmony and symmetry and recoil when there is over disharmony or a lack of balance.

Studies have shown that participating in music and art can alleviate pain, help people manage stress, promote wellness, enhance memory, improve communications, aide physical rehabilitation, and give people a way to express their feelings.Mar 22, 2018
or art and music therapy helps teens - USA Today — Reginal E. Payne II, Jayne O'Donnell and Marquart Doty,

That was said very well. Sometimes poetry is the best way to speak truth.

I am asking about the level on which art can play in addressing social and political issues. I am speaking about the role of expression of feelings in art, fiction, music and other art forms. How far should it be seen as an aesthetic quest or one which is part of a cultural statement? How influential can art be in raising consciousness?

Also, I am asking about the responsibilities of the artist. To what extent is the artist just expressing personal feelings? Is there any danger if art, music or fiction is too 'dark', such as metal music? Does it matter what art we create? — Jack Cummins

I love political cartoons and in a very old book about poverty that I have, there pictures worth the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words".

The Spartans used music to coordinate the movements on the battlefield, and Athenians thought music was very important for aesthetic reasons and was an important part of education.

I liked the energy mental music better when I was young, and now I prefer mellow classical music. I like the rhythm of rap but often do not like the words! The hatred of some rape music is frightening. And the Beatles and The Mamas and the Papas, Alice's Restaraunt, I've Got a Hammer, I really think it was songs about war and peace that created peace when it was the thing to be Hippies. And oh my how much fun it was to dress Hippie and be creative. We sure could use some of that now.

There's evidence of early hominids caring for their elderly, their young and the sick. We also see similar behaviors in animals that live in groups. So maybe that is the natural state and selfishness to the detriment of others is unnatural because it leads to self-isolation. — 8livesleft

Most likely our line of humans out-competed the Neanderthal because of our greater ability to organize group behaviors than enhance survival. Human success really depends on organizational skills and motivating people to act in unison for one goal. Trump is a master at this, but he made the terrible mistake of pitting us against each other to develop his core of supporters. He almost won the election, but fortunately, Biden won the election. Unfortunately, Biden has to deal with the damage done by Trump. Can he unite us and prevent violence? Can he get us to work together to against the virus? I am afraid because of Trump's leadership, Biden's efforts to unite us in fight against Covid will lead to more violence. And if the no masks, no restrictions side had won, our population would have been reduced even more.

Bottom line- human success depends on human unity.

Yes, I think that there are signs of hope. We obviously measure partly on the basis of what we see in our own country and we are all across the world. My own feeling is that there do seem to be some definite positive indications.

I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature. — Jack Cummins

I think we are definitely seeing the better side of humanity. I wish there were a general understand that the Christian God did not become forgiving and loving until our bellies were full. Christians were focused on a jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing god. People beat the devil out of their children.

Perhaps child-rearing practices are the most important to a culture, along with the mythology that defines the culture. The best way to have an aggressive, warrior type society is to abuse children. Protecting children and making it possible for them to grow up with love and security, leads to a gentle society, and in the past having weak people instead of fearsome fighters was a shame and a danger. During hard times no one can be soft. Seriously we need to know history to have a perspective on the present.

It is a bit insane to live in the best of times and be so angry and ready to fight, as is so in the US today and I really think that is because we neglected history. If we compare our lot in life with the wealthiest we can be miserable. If we compare our lives with the past, we are apt to be very thankful and capable of believing the future can be even better when we work together for that.

Jack, sorry about my US focus but we are expecting violence in all state capitals and especially in Washington DC on the day of the inauguration of Biden. It is hard to think of anything else besides Covid and the expected violence. I don't think things are this intense in other places. The divide we have now is like the civil war divide and Trump made this so. The violent eruption was expected and it is not over.

I agree that greed and stupidity are problems and probably a lot of people don't have the motivation to overcome them. Do you have any ideas on how they can be addressed on a collective level because I am not sure that education or politics even addresses them fully. — Jack Cummins

Public education is essential and using our schools and public media to transmit a culture and necessary information such as when the economy collapses, or there is a pandemic, is essential. The culture must promote life long learning and valuing science, math, and history. Education that is focused on preparing the young to be products for industry and leaving moral training to the church is a human disaster! We need to hold an idea of the ideal we are heading towards so we know where we are going, and we need history for perspective on where we have been and where we are going.

I think the pandemic is potentially a huge wake-up call. If we somehow manage a cohesive response, the pandemic could well teach us our true power as a coordinated collective. Great things could come of that. Unfortunately I see that opportunity daily slipping away. — Pantagruel

Whoopy :party: We have agreement. I am blown away by the US giving money to all citizens for no other reason than they are citizens and giving businesses money. I have been through a few economic crashes and this is totally different from Reagan scapegoating the poor and slashing the domestic spending to pour everything into military spending. Only during the Great Recession has the US government done so much for citizens in need. I think the way things were handled by Roosevelt was better, but maybe this new way of handling an economic problem will prove successful? The point is the government is keeping people afloat, and stimulating the economy, which is different from the past and hopefully, this works well and future economic crashes will be managed better than in the past.

↪Athena
I think that the whole state of crisis is of concern, not just the US. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, because it applies to many threads on the site which focus on America more than any other aspect of the world. America is a superpower but it is not the only one.

I am interested in the idea of the New Age more than conventional Christianity but we need to understand the movement in its historical context. It has some roots in Christianity and also a basis in Eastern philosophy. In a way it is utopian, but I think that the term is becoming a bit outdated because people became disillusioned with it. In the New Age movement there was the whole idea of moving from the age of Pisces to that of Aquarius. I do embrace this idea but I think that many people on this site may regard such an idea as mystical jumbo.

I think that we are best focusing on possible ways forward independently of labels and we don't really know, in an ultimate sense if the idea of the age of Aquarius is real objectively. However, going into Joseph Campbell's thinking we could say that it is certainly a mythic truth.

Obviously, I am going into the realm of speculation that fantasy, but I am wondering what mythic visions can take us beyond the mess we are in? I think that this applies on the personal and collective level. I am not saying that this is more important than the political, economic and social dimensions of life but I do believe that all these matters are deeper than what is apparent in the media. I am just wondering as an idle dreamer and when I added to the title this evening it was my call to the universe for some gems of wisdom to emerge from possible hitherto unexpressed ideas of members of the forum. — Jack Cummins

I think there are reasons to believe we are transitioning to a New Age. Transitions can be hard and this is not the first time a transition has lead to mass violence. It has happened throughout history often as a result of technology changing the workforce and economy. "The Mayan Factor" mentions an economic collapse so I am not too worried about what covid is doing to all the economies. This is a wake call telling us we need to figure out another way to think about money and it goes with no longer being labor-intense economies.

Perhaps we should consider there was a time when all money had value because it was made with gold or silver, copper and nickel. The US took these metals out of their coins and now we have coins with no value. Paper was backed by gold and then silver and that is no longer true. I think we all are living on credit and how much we can borrow depends on our gross national product. That is pretty abstract and to avoid economic collapse we might have to take that further?

People have thought we were transitioning to the New Age before. They associated it with the Enlightenment which has greatly improved our lives. When we had electricity and lighted our streets and homes, some thought this was the New Age that fulfilled the Enlightenment dream. But that technology was not the technology of the New Age. Now it is thought our rapid communication is the
the technology of the New Age and this may be.

What China is doing with cell phone technology is interesting. The government can watch everyone and gives people points for "good behavior" and punishment follows "bad behavior" and many seem as delighted with this as a child at Christmas with a new toy. Such government surveillance of individuals is alarming to Americans but effectively is what China is doing, leading to a stronger and bigger beehive, and will it be emulated? We have allowed businesses to invade our personal computers and record our personal information. I hate the changes to my online experiences and lost control of how my computer functions but I live with them because what is the alternative? We have spoken of group consciousness before.

The New Age is a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny. It is a new consciousness so different from the past, people can no longer relate to the past. I think this is possible.

I found it amusing that you googled the philosophy of disasters and found my name. However, in a way I am not that surprised but that is why I try to be a bit careful how much personal information I disclose. I don't want to create a pseudonym, so I just try to make sure that I can stand according to what I write.

I got a different response to my google search this time and the subject is very complicated and because it involves governing the people, it might be something that interests you.

On a more serious note, I do worry at times that it is the end times of history. What is worse is that if belief in this becomes a self'fulfilling prophecy. I think that the idea of the end of history was a core part in the arms race, especially some American strands of Christianity. Really, I think that we are at a crossroads and we, as a collective force, may determine the fate of humanity. I find this scary. Of course, the leaders play a key role but perhaps what each of us thinks and does is important too. Perhaps we are all like individuals cells in a gigantic organism and no one can say how much influence one has in the grand scheme. — Jack Cummins

I did a different google search and got a different result. The link explains a disaster philosophy could shape government policy and that means a possible career choice for you.

Philosophy and Disaster
Posted on April 2006
Naomi Zack

ABSTRACT: Philosophers have traditionally written from the perspective of ordinary people and they are as vulnerable to fear as other members of the public. Academic philosophers can contribute to the multi-disciplinary field of homeland security and disaster studies through extensions of social contract theory from political philosophy, and applications of moral systems. The idea of a state of nature is relevant to government’s role in disaster preparation, response and planning, because disasters often result in a second state of nature. All three of the main ethical systems of virtue ethics, deontology, and consequentialism, are relevant to disaster-related situations in ways that suggest the importance of being able to combine all three. Both the applications of political philosophy and moral theory can be augmented by John Rawls’s idea of distributive justice and Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s idea of the common good. Finally, the inevitability of human mortality, as emphasized by existentialist philosophers, can create a wider perspective on disaster.
https://www.hsaj.org/articles/176 — Naomi Zack

Getting in touch with our mortality and facing a disaster as big as this pandemic may change us. But we need to think beyond the disaster itself. I think one reason we are prone to war is we don't really grasp the reality. History calls men who lead senseless wars "Great" and they have been honored and children have been encouraged to play war games. I wonder how we may have evolved if women wrote philosophy and history? When women write of war it is not the story men write. Here is an example of how a woman wrote of war...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/books/review/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan-an-excerpt.html

So in a pandemic, might the experience be different if women have power? I certainly think so. Many women have power today, and not since Roosevelt has the federal government of the US done so much to help citizens. Roosevelt's wife had a strong influence on him. When Bill Clinton gave his wife political power, he was perceived as weak, and she had to stop being so public about her participation in the policies her husband was working on. The US has not been accepting of a woman or person of color in the presidency. This appears to be changing and how the US is responding to this crisis is new for us.

Yeap the subject can be complex. And Jack, I think what is happening could be controlled by forces out of our control. It could have direction and purpose. I just like the New Age story a whole lot better than the Christian one.

Unfortunately, no. Everything I know about them is based on our visits. I used to work for a company that did a lot of business in Japan.

Don't get me wrong, they can also be complete animals (as in the WWII, and there's still crime and everything, and this whole dolphin and whale slaughter ritual they have) and sometimes they can get rowdy and racist when they're drunk but as soon as an authority figure sees what's happening, they immediately fall in line and make a very loud apology and express their shame.

On our last trip, we saw a man lying on the sidewalk. There were two police officers "guarding" him. I didn't know what it was then we found out that the man had too much to drink and had passed out. The police were protecting him. Wow.

So, their culture is simply about doing what's right. They have this Code of bushido or this code of honor that exemplifies loyalty, honor, righteousness. It got lost somewhere in the war but upon losing, they went back to this code and completely went away from war becoming more pacifist - I'm assuming it's from the Buddhist influence. They also have the Shinto Religion - many gods for all sorts of things (mainly nature).

Interestingly, Christianity was introduced but then it was largely met with hostility and was completely banned by government. Christians had to worship in secret caves and such. But of course it's all open now but you don't see Japanese flocking to it since they already have a very strong sense of cultural identity.

It's like that in many places where you have such divided politics and the division itself has become part of the culture - Democrat, Republican, for example. Any kind of division is an obstacle. And that gap appears to be quite large and so, needs a lot of bridging. But bridging will be difficult if you have whole populations actively or violently trying to tear those bridges down. — 8livesleft

The US also had a standard of horror and it was very much a part of our education. We used heroes from around the world and since the earliest civilizations, to teach every single child how to be a hero.

We totally understood some people were not as smart as others and they would be laborers while others would go on to the college, but everyone learned of the little boy who saved his town by putting his thumb in the hole in the dam. Everyone has an important part to play and we have lost that notion.
Doctors doctored for the love of healing and lawyers worked for a love of justice and journalist knew they were defending our democracy. This was the effect of using hero stories and folklore to teach morality and citizenship.

I am sure this was damaged by the Great Depression and world war. When young ladies began wearing bras and shorts and then became pin-up girls motivating the men to wear uniforms, our society was changed in a fundamental way, and the change was pushed further by WWII and the more advanced technology of that war and the 1958 National Defense Education Act putting the advancement of technology above human values, putting competition above cooperation. Now we have a history of giving our lives for our liberty and we are thinking we will be better off when we surrender our liberty to robots and computers. We are valuing technology more than human values.

I am sure unless we agree with Thomas Jefferson about the importance of education for a strong and united republic, we will fail. If our education does not return to the set of American values that every child learned, and continues to put technology, and money, above human values, we may not get through the transition that must be made at this time.

Seriously it should be obvious to everyone that the God of Abraham religions are divisive and leading us to the last days. We may not wear masks, but Israel is ignoring the wisdom of respecting Palestinians and working with them for peace, dragging all of us into wars and possibly the final war. Seeing the world today and believing we are in the last days, could make this the last days. But the Greeks saw life as a fire and that someday the fire would be greater than what is left to consume. Human values and science are very important right now.

Yes, life is too stressful. Even though I am so relieved that my mum was negative for Covid_19 I have not recovered really from all the anxiety of yesterday.

I do agree with not being able to drink coffee is awful, worse than not being able to play music really. I think coffee is the elixir for philosophy. I remember when I was at work if something really awful happened other staff members knew that I needed a coffee in order to think clearly.

I would say that philosophy loses its meaning when it becomes too detached from our life experiences and that is probably why I started this post about disasters. I don't understand why people want to engage in discussions which are more like word games.

The most ancient philosophers asked big questions but they were also engaged with the issues of day to day existence. Some people might choose to ignore this thread because there is a thread on Coronavirus already, but I am concerned about what the situation we are being thrown into. I think that we are being pushed in directions we never expected, and it requires a whole new way of seeing and existing. — Jack Cummins

Perfect, you totally get the importance of coffee. :grin:

And thank you! I am not interested in philosophical discussions that are like word games. They give philosophy a bad reputation and so turn people off they make no attempt to learn of philosophy. That is a shame.

Whoo, dude! I just googled for a philosophy dealing with disaster and your thread comes up. I wanted the name of a philosopher whose philosophy includes how disasters affect us and tell us how to think through the hard times, but all that is there is your thread. So Jack will you become the expert philosopher everyone turns to for understanding how to cope with disasters or the importance of hard times to our ability to cope with life?

I do not know exactly how philosophy differs from psychology, and while some philosophers have addressed the importance of history I am not sure if anyone has adequately explained our human experience. Explaining how natural disasters have influenced Japan is a step in the right direction, but in the US we seem to live in denial of how wars and economic crashes shape our human experience. We speak of life going back to normal, but what does that mean for children whose ideas of life and "normal" are forming during covid?

There is something deeper here. I am not sure what that is. For the people of the God of Abraham, there is the expectation of the last days. Mayans had a calendar and an expectation of cyclical good years and bad years building to a critical moment in time when heaven and earth are one. New Age believers can see all that talk as different points of view of the same thing. We have lived with a notion of what is to come and does that help us cope or hinder us? Is running around without a mask and insisting on gathering at church and relying on God and welcoming the last days, working well with those of us who rely on science? :chin:

Actually my story has no one killing anyone, simply reducing the ability to procreate. No suffering for anyone existing. Indeed even the knowledge of the reduction would not be a factor as the change would take place over a number of generations.

My story was not to disparage the teaching of Kant, but to point out that the perspective and values of the individual determine the interpretation and application of Kant's framework. — Book273

Hum, presently international organizations are attempting to reduce procreation by giving women jobs. When women have jobs other than caring for family, and children are most likely going to become adults, people have fewer children. So in your story, how is procreation reduced?

I am writing a joint reply because it seems most appropriate because I just had a scare that my mother had Covid_19. I got a phone call this evening, but fortunately a test was done very promptly and she was negative, but until I got the call I was in a panic. But I told my flatmates that I might have to self-isolate because I saw my mum a few days ago and one of them said that I had better go and be with her. I could not believe the ignorance of this. But of course it is a big relief that she has a chest infection rather than the virus.

However, I did go into disaster mode. I would also be meant to self-isolate if she had it because I saw her 3 days ago. This would be extremely difficult in shared accommodation. The policy makers do not realise how difficult all the rules and regulations are difficult to practice in settings such as accommodation with shared facilities. I know that the level of the virus has escalated in London in spite of lockdown. I wonder if this is because many people are in cramped, overcrowded living arrangements. I was able to distance far better until everyone was told to stay at home, because I found private corners.

Anyway, I am trying to rise above potential disasters and hoping that an electrician will come to look at my socket. The landlord said he does not know if anyone can come during lockdown but that could be 2 months or more. I will get a lot of reading done if I am not able to use any electrical items in my room. I am having to charge my phone in the kitchen and will have to buy batteries to listen to CDs.

I hope that future posts are not about me wallowing in my own disasters as if people log into this site for the first time and see this out of context they will think the thread is about moaning. Of course, I don't object if people do share their experiences of disaster because philosophy is about real life rather than pure theory. It may be about trying to juggle the two together creatively.
17 hours ago
Jack Cummins
799
I just saw an article on my phone saying that scientists have noticed that the world is spinning faster than it has ever done in 50 years in 2021. The last time it was spinning this fast was in 1937, so I am wondering if this will have any implications for our energy vibrations and experience. Perhaps it may make the experience of the pandemic seem slightly shorter. — Jack Cummins

My daughter and granddaughter have high-risk jobs. They have been in the same space with infected people. My daughter was sharing an office with an infected co-worker so she has been in quarantine this past week. That means everyone, where she works, has been overloaded with work with two people missing.

Actually, I am kind of holding my breath because I am waiting for a phone call. If I do not get a phone call by 10 a.m. I tested negative. It is not because of my family that I am being tested, but it is required before I do a stress test to check my heart, and I can't drink coffee today :grimace: That is a serious problem! I depend on coffee to get through the day.

My granddaughter's daughter is living with a caregiver and there will be emotional ramifications to this. My granddaughter's son was living with the same caregiver but did not do well there so he returned home and is old enough to care for himself but I don't think he is doing his school work as he should. A lot of children just are not doing their school work but fortunately, the daughter living with a caregiver is doing school work beyond her grade. She gets along perfectly with her care giver and loves being her teacher's favorite student. So there are some children who are excelling in school and that has to make getting through the pandemic easier for them. They are busy doing something they need to do and can be satisfied with their progress. Instead of every day being as the day before and no progress.

And yes, Jack, if philosophy is not about our everyday experiences, then what purpose does it have? Some threads in the forum are so philosophically purest, so dependent on having a good understanding of something in a book, that I totally avoid them. They are meaningless to me. I want philosophy that applies to be my struggles. It is philosophy that helped me keep my sanity when times were rough.

The scale of equality and heirarchy struck me as odd, as it implies that equal societies do not favor strong heirarchical structures. I think this is not the case. After all, use of authority is required to enforce equality, as it will not arise naturally. — Tzeentch

For sure liberal education makes each person his/her own authority. And it is with this authority that we vote for the best leaders and gladly follow those leaders, while we stand ready to take their place of leadership if need be.

I was a Toastmistress for many years and at first, thought being the club president would be the best position to have. :rofl: The other members prepared me for taking on that responsibility as everyone who joined the club was prepared to do. Then my day came to take increasingly greater responsibility, as the treasurer, then as the secretary, and finally as the president. The greatest service is required of the president. It is not a role to envy but a duty to fulfill and to pass on to the next person as soon as possible. Like George Washington.

Our democracy came out of the enlightenment and like the democratic model for industry is suppose to be about helping everyone be the best s/he can be so s/he can make her/his contribution to society. Democracy is about all of us working together. It is a shifting hierarchy, not a static one.

Please also share your thoughts on the relationship between these different axes.

Are liberty and equality (so likewise authority and hierarchy) two sides of the same coin, where you can't have one without the other? Or is each a threat to the other, where one must choose which is more important to them?

Is the status quo one of liberty or authority, equality or hierarchy?

Which of these values belong to the "left", and which belong to the "right"?
a day ago
Reply
Options — Pfhorrest

Only highly moral people can have liberty and only well-educated people can be highly moral. So how well educated is the population? Our Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for the enlightenment of literate people. Unfortunately, the masses in the US are no longer educated to understand what literacy and good moral judgment have to do with liberty and democracy. Since 1958 they have been prepared to be products for industry and to rely on authority. Their dependence on authority justifying the need for authority over the people and this gave us Trump as our great leader. Big mistake! The mistake beginning with the change in education in 1958.

Hum checking what others have said, it appears I misunderstood the purpose of the discussion. This may not help but I believe we should live by 3 rules because they eliminate most social problems.

We respect all people because we are respectful. This is totally about who we are not who the other person is.

We protect the dignity of others.

We do everything with integrity.

That sounds scary. That happened to an extension cable of ours. It started making popping noises and causing sparks. Hope your issue was taken care of.

Anyway, yeah disasters can be considered as natural occurrences. They do indeed have very negative effects but we can prepare for them and recover from them.

This is the mentality the Japanese have. Their major cities are along the ring of fire. There are many powerful earthquakes and tsunamis.

That's why when there are disasters, the people remain calm and all seem to know exactly what to do. The stores immediately start giving away blankets, water and the restaurants and bars start packing food. Everyone lines up and waits their turn and then move towards a designated safe zone.

Damage, injuries and even death is often unavoidable but the chaos is drastically minimized when the citizenry remain calm and orderly. Recovery is also much faster.

On a side note, it seems to me that they're also no stranger to pandemics since they culturally avoid contact - bowing vs shaking hands, they also leave their shoes outside and wear slippers inside, money is also placed on a little basket so you don't have to touch hands. They also have gods for pandemics that you can invoke by some ritual — 8livesleft

Do you know of a book that explains the Japanese way? On the public broadcasting channel, I have seen how well organized Japanese neighborhoods are and this includes working together to keep children safe. I think knowledge of the Japanese could be a huge improvement for the US. The US has held some pretty ugly notions of humanity and why the elite are more deserving and how the US is superior to the rest of the world. This is embarrassing and US citizens need to work on this problem. We are still denying our homeless shelter, stability, water, and sanitation even though we have the technology to do better and instead of being reasonable about this, we drive them away because we want to protect our middle-class standard of living. In my community, we are doing better but we serve only a small percentage of those who need a safe place to sleep, and we not even protecting all the children but put them on a waiting list and leave them with no safety. This mentality is prevailing even during the pandemic. Good luck USA if the pandemic continues or another disaster strikes. We are not doing as well as we need to. Our mentality is still ugly.

I am asking about whether we can begin to think and act differently when we are confronted by the greatest disasters. The question is one which exists on a personal and collective level. But I wish to begin the exploration by framing it within the context of the current pandemic, but with awareness that the area of discussion is much wider.

I have been reading 'The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Our World After an Apocalypse,' by Lewis Dartnell (2014), in which he suggested that the people of the world would cope very badly if faced with a global disaster, including a pandemic He stated, 'People living in developed nations have become disconnected from the process of the civilisation that supports them,' and that, 'Our survival skills have atrophied to the point where humanity would be incapable of sustaining itself if the life-support system of modern civilisation failed, if food no longer magically appeared on shop shelves, or clothes on hangers.' — Jack Cummins

What a perfect way to describe what has happened to the US. The people have become disconnected from the process of the civilization that supports them. Don't believe me? Name 10 principles of democracy. How did we come to have a democracy and make human rights a political concept? Maybe if you are European or British you can answer the questions, but it is highly unlikely a US citizen can do that, and for this reason, I take your thread very seriously. If we do not know history we become disconnected from who we are and I am so excited with this realization sparked by what you said. This is how the US became an Empire of Illusion created by Trump and the US media that has forgotten what freedom of speech has to do with protecting our democracy while they focus on their popularity and making money.

However, I do believe that the obstacle, beyond the creation of a vaccine which addresses mutant strains of the virus, is one which will require human beings to think and act differently, and this includes meeting all the other problems, especially poverty, in the aftermath. It will involve a whole new way of thinking, and most probably a way of rising above the individualist ethic which has been central to maintaining capitalist, consumer materialism. — Jack

I am blown away by how far we gone in this process! In past recessions, we have not helped people as we are doing now. We are not doing as well as I think we should because we seem to be stuck in denial, but maybe one day the US will break out of denial and do better.

The whole pandemic and other disasters bring us to confront uncertainty and call for us to be at our most resourceful. On a positive note, Ian Scoones and Andy Stirling,(2020),in, 'The Politics of Uncertainty (Pathways to Sustainability)', say that, 'The implications of uncertainty are so profound that they challenge existing hegemonic frameworks and institutions, and drive imaginations of a post-capitalist, sustainable future..' — Jack

That looks like a book to read.

I wish to ask whether we can we can change our thinking, in the face of disasters and uncertainty, in order to survive physically and psychologically? Each of us experiences different kinds of 'disasters' and we have all experienced the pandemic uniquely, amidst the other variables of our lives. — Jack

This is a no brainer. I am thrilled by how differently we are going through this economic disaster. I wish we went through every economic disaster so well!. I remember one of our past presidents making war of the victims of the economic disaster created by OPEC embargoing oil to the US, and how we slashed domestic budgets to pour money into military spending and all the lies leadership told the public and the media cooperation in spreading the lies. This time, although another president lied to us and some media was complicit in spreading the lies, some leaders and some media told us the truth in some states and Congress is giving the economic victims money. So much depends on the media and telling the people the truth or lying to them.

I believe that embracing uncertainty is a starting point. However, I wonder is it too weak ss a guiding force for bringing the changes in thinking needed for coping, and for practical changes to address disaster, personally and collectively. Of course, when we are in difficult circumstances we draw upon all philosophies, but I am wondering about how may we construct a philosophy for disasters? I do believe that we change through experiencing obstacles and a philosophy for disasters may draw upon the idea of resilience as a foundation. — Jack

I believe basic to our ability to survive disasters is our education, especially education in democracy and it's philosophical foundation. This might include religion, preferably if that includes all religions because they teach the basic human values of good behavior. Information can radically change human consciousness and democracy as a social/political order, is vital to our ability to work together. I think another improvement is to give our economy a democratic order.

Except for beavers eh. They see a creek, they imagine a home, they build a dam, then a home...

Come to think of it, lots of things change their surroundings to suit their needs, so...

...I guess the prevalent theory is that if we can't communicate with them (let's ignore that maybe they don't want to talk to us) then they can't communicate, and so also cannot have an imagination, or anything else that we don't assign them. (sigh) I find people's inherent arrogance a constant annoyance, continually operating on a jumped up assumption of superiority.

With respect to what happens to our consciousness after death; I adhere to the "energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed" theory. My consciousness will transform, or transmigrate, to an alternate location or energy level. Perhaps some fundamental memories, or memories of memories, will remain for me to build upon in the next go round. — Book273

The beavers' behavior comes in the genes, not the development of the brain. We can inherit skills like beavers, birds, and other animals and insects. This is called "Genetic memory" and it is not equal to human imagination. Maybe someday high schools will include knowledge of our brains and modes of thinking. I think that would be a huge benefit to individuals and society. It might improve our communication etiquette.

Respect, kindness, and consideration form the basis of good manners and good citizen-ship. Etiquette becomes the language of manners. Rules of etiquette cover behavior in talking, acting, living, and moving; in other words, every type of interaction and every situation.

Manners and Etiquette | Encyclopedia.com — encylopedia.com

But the purpose here is to draw attention to people who claim as a matter of right under freedom to do what they want; and to the harm they do, potentially to be sure, but too often as a matter of fact.
— tim wood
The problem is, I think, that you’re using two meanings of freedom. Is, in your opinion, the freedom to do what you want related to Kant’s idea? It seems to me this second freedom is so meaningless that there’s no way to use it in the context of your OP. — Brett

I love the debate the two of you are having.

If we want government services we must give up a degree of freedom. If we are going to rent instead of own our homes, we give up some freedom. If we want to use computers and the internet, we must give up a degree of freedom. Even if we want medical care we must give up a degree of freedom because we can be denied medical care and just about anything else if we are not cooperative.

Antony Nickles

suggested reading Heidegger's essay “The Question Concerning Technology”.

He tried to make amends with me by saying he was influenced by his mother and grandmother who experienced the war years. I wonder if he noticed their expectation of everyone accepting their authority instead of waiting to know the policy and what they must do to comply with it?

Well, I deeply apologize; I got an email that I thought was you replying to my post, but it was, instead, you replying to someone else's (a little new to this). I thought it was strange, but I made some poor assumptions, and I'm sorry that I offended you. If it helps, my mother lived through the war in England, and my grandmother the century before last. — Antony Nickles

No apology is necessary. I think we should recognize we are coming from different cultures and that this may lead to misunderstanding. We have lost sight of the fact that can be more than one truth because there most certainly are different situations, and what is true in your situation may not be true in mine. My very old logic book makes this clear, but that is no longer the logic we are working with, therefore, we have intense conflicts and even violence. Education for technology has to led us thinking something is either true or it is false, and now we are tearing each other apart and tending towards violence instead of reason.

"As I don't take this as a real desire to learn, I would only say that people who take Nietzsche as proposing "ideas" or social opinions, miss the point (which is to say everyone who has only read snippets of him, or think the "will to power" is a moral theory.) His mission was to show the historical and contextual quality missing from Kantian and deontological morals, along with the additional point I am making about our human condition (I think it important to say, though, that he did not believe we are always living beyond morals; only that they have a life and a limit)."

I am sure you did not mean to insult me, by saying I do not have a sincere desire to learn. I will point out, as my very old logic book did, that there are too many things for us to learn for anyone to know all of them. No human being can learn everything. Nietzsche does not come to the top of my list something I must study, however, that does not mean I have no desire to learn. How the masses understood being supermen has come down through history as a nightmare that is regrettable. Nietzsche's influence on society and the impact of rapidly advancing technology has backed humanity into a corner, and I think Greek and Roman philosophy might better prepare us to make the transition to the New Age, better than Nietzsche and Hegel. Not that what they said has no value, but it did not lead to the democracy of the US. It has however influenced the US ever since Eisenhower put the military-industrial complex in place. It is far better for humanity for us to strive to be the best humans we can be, instead of us being driven to be supermen. I will add, women being liberated to be as men is not as good as them being empowered as women. As civilians and police clash, we need the feminine force.

Again, my sincere apologies. As a token of peace, I offer that you might (if you can forgive him for basically being a Nazi) find Heidegger's essay “The Question Concerning Technology” interesting. He has a very dark view of the influence of technology, roughly, "enframing" (narrowing) our view of humanity and nature as only a means (echoing Marx).

Now that appears to be along my line of interest. It is insane that we fight for our liberty and give it up for technology! Not just technology like our computers and the web, but bureaucratic technology as well. The changed bureaucratic technology has shifted power to government and disenfranchised us. To use the Christian term, this is the beast on steroids!

Unfortunately, Christians tend to study their Bibles instead of reality. If they paid as much attention to reality we might all be working together much better than we are. Right now the US divide between science and religion is ripping the nation apart and we must get back to understanding why our Statue of Liberty holds a book and what science has to do with morals and liberty.

agree that "higher-order thinking skills" embetters us and our society, not only with knowledge of the criteria of our morals, but also our understanding of our obligation to ourselves (and others) to the ethical consideration of a moral moment. I would only say that the idea of "dependent" and "different" does not affect the human condition between (any) morals and when they leave us turned upon ourselves without further guidance. Our "culture" and our "circumstances" and even our "morals" can be different, but the responsibility (among other things) that we have is universal, as you say, "to reason through our choices and make decisions", though I wouldn't call this a "learned ability" so much as a human obligation (categorically, as it were), say, our moral duty.

I would only else say that we are not born with moral/cultural/language, we are born into them. They are there before us and apart from us. We do not (always) "learn" these (as rules, laws), as much as we pick them up in going along and becoming a part of society (an unconscious social contract by osmosis as it were); they are wrapped up in what our society cares about and the way things count in the world (this is Wittgenstein's Grammar and Criteria)--they are not "knowledge" and we don't "agree" on them. But, yes, we can renounce them, be ignorant of them, contradict them, but also, become conscious of them, reform them, extend them (into new contexts), etc. We do not need nor have a "higher standard". It is not a dichotomy between feeling and knowledge--we/the world already have ordinary criteria for morals, etc. The criteria may be forgotten, or unexamined, but that does not mean we don't live by them (are left to our "feelings") or can't explain them if asked (by Socrates, Austin, etc.). — Antony Nickles

I agree that "higher-order thinking skills" embetters us and our society, not only with knowledge of the criteria of our morals, but also our understanding of our obligation to ourselves (and others) to the ethical consideration of a moral moment. I would only say that the idea of "dependent" and "different" does not affect the human condition between (any) morals and when they leave us turned upon ourselves without further guidance. Our "culture" and our "circumstances" and even our "morals" can be different, but the responsibility (among other things) that we have is universal, as you say, "to reason through our choices and make decisions", though I wouldn't call this a "learned ability" so much as a human obligation (categorically, as it were), say, our moral duty.

I would only else say that we are not born with moral/cultural/language, we are born into them. They are there before us and apart from us. We do not (always) "learn" these (as rules, laws), as much as we pick them up in going along and becoming a part of society (an unconscious social contract by osmosis as it were); they are wrapped up in what our society cares about and the way things count in the world (this is Wittgenstein's Grammar and Criteria)--they are not "knowledge" and we don't "agree" on them. But, yes, we can renounce them, be ignorant of them, contradict them, but also, become conscious of them, reform them, extend them (into new contexts), etc. We do not need nor have a "higher standard". It is not a dichotomy between feeling and knowledge--we/the world already have ordinary criteria for morals, etc. The criteria may be forgotten, or unexamined, but that does not mean we don't live by them (are left to our "feelings") or can't explain them if asked (by Socrates, Austin, etc.). — Antony Nickles

That is some heavy thinking. A couple of points hit a nerve. Mostly at this moment, I can not stop thinking of all those good people who stormed the capital of the US. I must be careful how I speak of this because I could be so easily misunderstood. I want you to know your post resulted in me leaving the forum to write a letter to the editor and I thank you for the thoughts that lead to that.

The people who stormed the Capital were fighting for our freedom, and I think we should consider what this action has to do with being proud Americans and proud of how our nation began with a rebellion. In the South, some people still wave the rebel flag, and we need to consider what that means to them and how it ties into being a patriotic citizen. I want to point out that the concept of freedom and duty in the South has meant these people strongly support the defense of the US when we go to war. Dumping our rage on them now without understanding their sense of cause is our wrong. Not that they were right, but let us be realistic. We have manifested a military-industrial complex that is disenfranchising people and rapidly changing our social order, and this just leads to the craziness we have been experiencing. This is not all bad but our lack of awareness is terrible!

"Our "culture" and our "circumstances" and even our "morals" can be different, but the responsibility (among other things) that we have is universal, as you say, "to reason through our choices and make decisions", though I wouldn't call this a "learned ability" so much as a human obligation (categorically, as it were), say, our moral duty."

That is true but, we have been disenfranchised. It is as Eisenhower warned us to let happen because the 1958 change in education made this so. Since 1958 the young for been prepared for "group think" and reliance on experts. We have extended the military order from our federal bureaucracy to every institution, and disempowered citizens. Because the citizens have absolutely no knowledge of the change in bureaucratic order and what this has to do the change in education, and the social, economic and political ramifications of this, they are not conscious of what has gone so terribly wrong but they are aware of the powerlessness. This turns us against each other.

People don't read long post so I will stop here. At this moment in history, talking about being born into a moral/cultural/language, seems to miss the reality of the US today. Our morality, culture, language, is in complete turmoil right now and we are killing each other trying to save our democracy. I am hating myself for not being a better writer and not completing the book I started long ago. We are unaware of why things have gone crazy and I hate myself for my failure to do raise awareness.

Unless you knew people of my grandmother's generation, I don't really care what you think. It is like talking about being an overwhelmed nurse in a hospital that is overwhelmed without having the experience. I have no idea why some people appear to worship Nietzsche. Nietzsche and Hegel got Germany into big trouble. Not directly but as others adopted their ideas and Prussia organized the whole of Germany into an industrial/military complex, we saw the horrors man can create when they love power and not wisdom.

This is not quick judgment but a very passionate judgment. The US and its allies defeated Germany in two world wars and then the US adopted the German (Prussian) models of bureaucracy and education and replaced classic education presenting Greek and Roman philosophers with education for technology and German philosophers, Now the US is what it defended it is democracy against. It no longer understands rule by reason but has reactionary politics as Germany did and I think we are in for a walk through Hades.

Exactly want is my part in the US being a Military Industrial Complex with reactionary politics and a culture that has lost sight of morality? :chin:

Let us call this parameter two.

Therefore, applying the above two parameters, I postulate the following:

Mark realizes that, due to pollution, over harvesting, habitat destruction, over population, and the lack of meaningful change to rectify these problems, the earth will no longer be able to sustain life, human or otherwise, within the next three hundred years. Mark, being an exceedingly talented geneticist, has the ability to create a virus which will eliminate 75% of the human population over the next hundred years. There is no suffering to speak of, simply a massive reduction in the ability to reproduce and the resulting population decline. This action will result in the betterment of future generations as well as restoring global balance and harmony.

Duty suggests that Mark release his virus, despite his personal feelings on the issue. He is aware of both outcomes, elimination of everyone (no action on his part) or elimination of 75% of humanity (action on his part). Good will (ensuring that life goes on) informs Mark's Duty to Act, which is supported by reason (Continuation of life over the cessation of life), and therefore, the act that Ought to be done.

And there is a rationalized justification for an act that most would consider genocidal. Lovely frame work. Thanks Kant. — Book273

Duty and honor go hand in hand. You are smart but what you wrote lacks wisdom. Your story associates doing the smart thing with killing which most certainly would not be considered honorable and this kind of thinking is exactly what is wrong in the US today. :rage: Education for a technological society with unknown values has destroyed the democracy we once had when we had education for good moral judgment.

Google definition of "freedom": the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants. Freedom is precisely how it's been defined but the actual situation on the ground may vary. Read the fine print :joke:

On a more serious note, one has to draw a distinction between what we mean by freedom and to what degree we possess it. These two are entirely different things. One - the meaning of freedom - represents our conception, expectation, and perhaps even our hope and the other - the freedom we possess - is reality's constraining, modifying, limiting effect on us.

Of course you might say that the facts as they stand matter - we have to mind the consequences of how we act, speak, and think - and that tells an entirely different story of human "freedom" than that supposed in the definition of freedom. True but notice a simple fact. Would you call this situation, having to walk on eggshells as it were, always mindful of the consequences of our acts, speech, and thoughts, freedom? No, right? I rest my case. — TheMadFool

It certainly is not my fault if the masses are ignorant of reality and what reasoning has to do with knowing universal law and the importance of living by the laws of nature. :grin:

I am having a huge problem with the limited education we have had and the changed meanings of words and spell-check is especially horrifying. I am horrified by how technology has changed our understanding of words and appears to be restricting our awareness of concepts. You might want to reconsider what being technologically correct is doing to our understanding of life.

Your distinction between freedom and the freedom we possess is interesting, but when I open the present of your thought, the box is empty. It is a word game without substance because if we do not understand cause and effect and the limits of our freedom, things can go very wrong, so I don't think separating cause and effect thinking from our understanding of freedom is a good idea. Yes, I do say "the facts as they stand matter". :kiss:

" that tells an entirely different story of human "freedom" than that supposed in the definition of freedom."
:kiss: Please, consider what I said about technological correctness. I think education, as focused on technology as the education we have had, is not education for science, and that it is deadly. We have a culture change and I wish the discussion of that could expand. We are about to experience the results of that culture change resulting from the 1958 change in education and I don't think we are going to like it. Our understanding of freedom and duty is nothing as it once was! We have fragments of that past in old books that we can not find in the books written by a technologically correct society. My grandmother's generation is long dead and loosing them is a terrible loss to us! Her father sold the family's beautiful home on the lake, and his business and he became a laborer and he paid off all the investors in the business he had until his business partner embezzled the companies money. In their day, honor was more important than money. This was clearly obvious in my grandmother's character and I have seen it in others that were of her generation. Being with these people was completely different than what we experience today. Today's understanding of freedom has nothing to do with honor and that is a terrible thing!

A very important discussion currently, so thank you for the post. What sparked my curiosity was the idea of duty and whether there is any compulsion. First, there is the distinction between the rational and emotional, or (Hume's) moral sense/innate moral judgment. I would argue that we can bypass this and still have a personal moral decision bound to reasonable action. — Antony Nickles

This would be highly dependent on our culture, associations, and the books we read. Social animals have what some call a pre-morality. They are wired for group behavior. They have different learning capabilities, with chimps having more ability to learn than baboons, however, animals can transmit culture to each other. They do not have the language essential to the thinking humans do, and we are not born with this language, nor are we born knowing the concepts essential to moral thinking and we aren't born knowing the high order thinking skills. Any "personal moral decision bound to reasonable action" is dependant on what we learn and because our circumstances are different, our sense of morality can be different.

This is where the higher-order thinking skills come in. That is the learned ability to reason through our choices and make decisions. The US focused on teaching these skills, and used the Conceptual Method, and had education for good moral judgment until the 1958 National Defense Education Act. Now the US has the reactionary politics Germany had. The US replaced its education with the German model. The best way to learn history is to experience and the next few days, months, year- will be very interesting. :grin: Morality based on how we feel instead of how we think, leads to power struggles not a high standard of morality.

We are the only animal that can imagine things differently than they are and then manifest the reality we imagine. That is pretty special and we need to be more responsible than a large percentage of US citizens are being. We need to dump education for a technological society with unknown values and get back to transmitting a culture that brings out the best in human beings.

Education for technology has brought the worst in us. It is as Zeus feared. With the technology of fire, we have gained all other technologies and turned our backs on the gods. We are now technologically smart but unwise. Our intelligence is not of value without wisdom.

Thanks but he took way too long to get to the bottom line. Did he ever mention what education has to do with this and what the 1958 National Defense Education Act has to do with the US ending the transmission of its culture? That is, ending education for good moral judgment and leaving moral training to the church. We now live with a Christian mythology and do not know our history from Athens to the United States. "The Founding Myth- Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American" by Andrew L. Seidel.

Thank you for spreading the information that is sadly lacking in the US. If we do not correct the education wrong, very soon, our democracy will be forgotten because our young have no idea of what it once was to be a citizen in the United States to have liberty without authority over us and without constant surveillance. Every school should have a Statue of Liberty and every student should understand why she holds and torch and a book.

We all need to know, only highly moral people can have liberty, for the same reason we keep poorly trained dogs on a leash in the city. We ended education for good moral thinking and now we are on a leash and under surveillance and this could be the end of being an international leader.

I am not sure Kant would say that there even are situations where you cannot do your duty. If you cannot do something, it cannot really be considered your duty. What makes your actions free is then choosing your duty. — Echarmion

I apologize for being so gross, but what comes to mind is if you can not get your zipper down you can not pee. But nature isn't so reasonable and sometimes we pee before we are ready. That does not change the fact that is preferable to wait until the zipper is down and our body parts are correctly positioned. No matter what, our duty is to do our best to control what happens even though it is possible something may go wrong.

What do you mean by "raw capacity". You speak as if freedom has a meaning other than being able to do whatever we want. Pray tell, what is this other meaning? — TheMadFool

Laugh, believing we are free to do anything we want seems to lack awareness of consequences. Because there are consequences resulting from what we do, we are not exactly free. Sooner or later the wrongs will come back to bite us.

:heart: I love your OP. Absolutely correct and when that is not understood as a truth and it is not passed on by the culture, there can not be liberty.

Unfortunately, the US has forgotten what morals have to do with liberty and it is becoming a paranoid police state. When I became frustrated trying to do a money transfer at Walmart, I was told by the women at the service counter and someone supposed to be the manager that they have been trained to watch out for fraud. Well good for them. Better training in customer service would make the store more active. But it is not just Walmart, how about when we make a business call and get the message the phone call may be recorded to assure quality assurance purposes. How sad the employers do not trust their employees and think they must be kept under surveillance. Not even dentists and doctors are treated respectfully, but they too are expected to follow orders from the office manager and policy just like uneducated laborers.

Liberal education as we had in the past, beginning with the first grade, would correct this problem because it would create a culture that embraced what you said in the OP. The more everything is kept in a file, and records are checked, and people are kept under surveillance, the worse things get and this is what we defended our democracies against in two world wars. Today China is a model of government control of people, but the US is not far behind.

Hi, has anyone made progress on a New Year's resolution?

I have organized most of my apartment, and now areas that I thought were okay now look like they need improvement. I tried to hire a professional but my friend doesn't want to share her and won't give me her phone number. That is so mean. :lol: She showed me her closest that the professional organized and they are beautiful! Oh well, life is hard. :grimace: I guess I will just have to keep working on my apartment by myself. Actually it is kind of nice to look at what I have achieved and know that I did that myself. :grin:

It helps that a couple of you have shared the need to reorganize. It is kind of like we are doing this together and that makes it more phone. :heart: :flower:

PS with your help I have called the mortuary to arrange for my cremation. It is not the most pleasant thing I have done, and I will be glad when this New Year resolution is done and I don't have to think about it anymore.

The value of humans is something I think most of us wonder about and I like the way you handle the subject. I think a favor being pragmatic and Greek philosophy. And the way you worded your concern I am stuck with thinking we are less valuable because of imagining a different reality that is superior to this one. I know Plato did that and that has also bothered me. Just for the fun of it, let us accept our human reality is the best it is going to get. There may be more. There could live after death or we could have more than one life. but for now, on mother earth, it works for me to appreciate what we have and to strive to be the best human I can be.

But boy, yesterday I sure did blow it! I lost all my composure in a Walmart and I hope I can avoid that store in the future because the customer service is so bad! It was easier to be a pleasant human being in the past when there was an effort to please the customer. Wasn't it Aristotle who talked about the art of being angry with the right person, in the right way, at the right time? Yeah, I like being practical. It is better than trying to be a saint. And there should be a philosophical explanation for avoiding unpleasant experiences that bring out the worst in us. :lol:

The book A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe explains sacred math. The numbers 1 thru 10 having powers or forces that we can see in nature. This way if thinking is different from our thinking and more like The Mayan Factor consciousness of amination. :lol: I laugh because I am sooo frustrated with trying to find the best terms to use and the definitions of words have changed so much the words are useless in conveying the meaning I am wanting to convey. Amination comes up as moving pictures not the spirits of the tree and river.

Language has so much to do with our understanding. Rome could not accept the trinity of God because it did not have a word for that concept and as a result Christians who thought God was a trinity father/son/holy ghost, and those who thought Jesus is the son of God, were killing each other! The Greeks had no problem with a god being a trinity and appearing in human form. Eventual Rome adopted the new terminology and they were able to get past the fighting.

This directly relates to this discussion. How do we understand the life force? Do we see what numbers have to do with knowledge of life forces? What do we know of energy and quantum physics?

There's the fact that two separated particles can interact instantaneously, a phenomenon called quantum entanglement. ... And there's another phenomenon called quantum superposition. This principle of quantum mechanics suggests that particles can exist in two separate locations at once.Dec 28, 2015

The Same Atoms Exist in Two Places Nearly 2 Feet Apart ... — JAY BENNETT

I :heart: Bitter Crank's post but maybe he would not be so sure there is no life after death if he thought all living matter has a spirit or if he saw reality as quantum physics explains it. Our language limits our notion of what we can believe is possible and if we do not have knowledge of math as more than numbers, we are blind to so much.

That is indeed one of the popular beliefs but it is not supported by my experience. :lol: :heart:

I like the Hindu notion of reincarnation better and most of my life has been preparing for the next one. Now maybe my spirit ends here, but it was been fun preparing for the next life.

In your post you speak of life being fast because it is in 3D. I would just suggest that life has 4, 5 and perhaps many more. I am inclined to think that if consciousness exists beyond death, may be in a different dimension to the one we are accustomed to in daily life. — Jack Cummins

Jack, I really do not know what I am talking about. We need someone who understands math theories.
but I think.....Three dimensions are required for the manifestation of matter. We process our concerns faster in a three-dimensional reality because there are boundaries. Without boundaries there is timelessness. That is there is no space-time. You can not run without the resistance of the ground. You can not go forward or backward, you just are.