I want to support your statement by adding to it....A sign that our democracy is falling is that we no longer understand that democracy is rule by reason and it is our responsibility to take part in that reasoning. Our Declaration of Independence could also be called a Declaration of Responsibility. If we understood democracy is rule by reason, Trump would not have a chance of being re-elected. But I am afraid the majority is Christian, believing God chooses the person to lead us and that our prayers help this person gain God's support in being a good leader. The US does not have rule by reason, by rule by faith in a religious mythology.

This thread is about democracy, so who understands what democracy has to do with family? — Athena

Because population growth has a lot to do with family.

And Michael Lee basically argued in the OP that Democracy won't solve the huge problems humanity is facing (written in the Limits of Growth), especially when the democracy is electing people like Trump, i.e. when we elect "candy store clerks" and not "doctors" who will solve the problems.

My argument was that this isn't so simple and the idea of our society being on the cusp of total collapse is an exaggeration. Starting from the fact that Limits on Growth should not be put on a pedestal, but viewed also critically, even if lot of the observations are correct. — ssu

Ah you said nothing of what families have to do with democracy. Without an understanding of what family has to do with democracy, we do not have an understanding of democracy. That is a social and economic problem.

Why do Americans claim to have a democracy when in fact they are most autocratic not democratic. Religion, the military, and industry in the US, are all autocratic and the swing to stronger and stronger autocratic control of the government is a sign of the fall of the democracy.

What is neoliberal consensus? Is this the same problem almost every country in the world is facing, or is it special to the US?

Our consciousness can be very selective. I think it is unconsciousness of others that leads to serious social problems. Those who enjoy abundance have no understanding of the poor and the poor lack understanding of those who enjoy abundance. If the poor thought as the well off think, they would be well off too and visa versa. Males lack the experience of being females and females lack the experience of being males. We only know what it is like to be the race we are but we do not experience being different race or a different ethnicity. It is quite obvious Christians process thoughts differently from non believers or they wouldn't disagree so passionately. It would be wrong to speak of consciousness as something we share in common.

Or as a prisoner once wrote me, "You can think shit tastes bad, but you don't know how bad until you eat". We can have sympathy for others, but not empathy unless we have had the experience of the other.

I think you have described the evolution of patriarchies, but I think before patriarchal civilizations there were matriarchal civilizations. Patriarchies do seem to advance technology much more than matriarchies, so it is unlikely we would have the civilizations we have today without patriarchies.

↪Pfhorrest
Logos means word. I did not know that. Sharing information is very important to the survival of many species. Words are the most effective means of sharing information. Words are culture. — ovdtogt

Not all cultures survive. Cultures can self destruct, or at least loose the competition for survival.

And It hardly matters that the model used in Limits of Growth predicted death rates to rise because of resource scarcity putting population levels to fall starting ten years from now. Of course the Club of Rome can be quite correct of the Population growth reaching a high point and then getting smaller very soon, but that is because of wealth and prosperity, people voluntarily choosing not having children. Not because of wide-scale famine. — ssu

And how are we to understand homeless and the death of homeless people exposed to the elements and prevented from sheltering themselves? I would say predicting a rise in death rates was accurate and our blindness to what is happening is a serious problem.

I don't know if it is good or bad news that increasingly women are choosing careers over becoming mothers, I just know many women who are old enough to be grandmothers are disappointed by their son's attraction to women who do not want children, and therefore little chance of them being grandmothers. I think this is about status and changed values, following declaring women who choose to stay home are "just housewives", devastating the status women once had because of who they married and their domestic skills and caring for family, and being civic leaders in charitable organizations. Who wants to be "just a housewife"?

This thread is about democracy, so who understands what democracy has to do with family?

I think education has a lot to do with shaping our values or lack of them and our consciousness in general. In the US we stopped educating for democracy in 1958 and began education for the Military Industrial Complex. In 1958 we ended education for good moral judgment and left moral training to the church as Germany had done. A huge mistake! This week I shared a hot tub with a Christian man who was gleeful about global warming and the end of life as we know it. As many Christians he believes what is happening is God's will and that something wonderful is about to happen. I repeat, leaving moral training to the church was a very bad idea!

Socrates did not 'hate' Democracy in much the same way Nancy Pelosi stated she does not 'hate' Donald J. Trump. I think she hates what Democracy has become and he is mostly responsible for it. — Michael Lee

I want to argue,Trump is not mostly responsible for the culture change the US has experienced but he is the consequence of cultural change brought on by replacing our liberal education with education for a technological society with unknown values and our constant state of religious competition and Christian control of education, especially in places like Texas. We have largely replaced Greek philosophy with German philosophy, and adopted the German models of bureaucracy and education, and we have manifested the conditions that brought Hitler to power. Trump is our Hitler not the cause of cultural change that got him elected in the first place.

I can not imagine anyone dismissing the importance of information on the internet. My concern was the cultural importance of books, especially the classics , or as I mentioned books of government documents, and I didn't mean to attack what you said, but only to raise awareness of the importance of books and the difference in information found in books or on line. Books may be found on line and really I should put a copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference on line and perhaps others books that raise awareness of schools being used to mobilize the US for WWI and WWII because I think that is important to our understanding of the development of education and cultural change. The internet is a wonderful tool, but how much thought are giving to the information and how it is presented and culture?

That appears to be a good explanation of the gang problem in some cities, the instinctual desire to belong and have status in the group.

Isn't the end the cause of the next thing? We could passively kill the homeless just by denying them the right to meet their human needs, or more overtly kill all the Jews, and lynch the Blacks to resolve the immediate problem, but that is not where things stop is it?

I'm accusing you of willful ignorance. — Galuchat

That is an offensive remark isn't it? What good can come out of offending people?

Some of you appear to take yourselves very seriously. This seems to have become a cultural problem as it was Nazi Germany and I no matter how important you all are, that is not a good thing.

Phantasies are ok if they give you predictive power, but what do you do with a theory which gives you nothing to measure and no way to confirm? — Zelebg

Disneyland. I do not mean that after Disneyland is made manifest, it can not be measured and confirmed, but that it would never happen without free flowing fantasy. To deny free thought is to atrophy our ability to create and that is not a good thing. Not only would that atrophy thinking but it sucks all the fun out of life and that is deadly.

As a field, Aether has mathematical structure and dynamics, but no material structure. Math is pure immaterial Information. So any physical field exists by definition, not in terms of matter. I can call the universe an Information Field, which, like a Quantum Field, has the power to convert Virtual Potential into Actual Matter. I know this way of looking at reality is counter-intuitive, but so is queer Quantum Theory, which is the foundation of modern science, and we'll have to get used to it — Gnomon

Exactly what is this consciousness conscience of? I think there is a connection that is matter, but not a connection that is thought. Sort of like God may know the number of hairs on my head, but not what I am thinking.

Is it possible the universe is conscious?

So will IA come to understand humans better then men understand women or women understand men?
Is having information the same as having a sense of meaning? Can neural network math produce a sense of meaning?

I see, now. I wasn’t really ignorant of how we got by without the internet. It was in response to the idea that the internet is the library of human knowledge and therefore essential. — Brett

I think we need to understand how books are different from the internet. Come to think of it, what information would a robot find important? What motivation would a robot have for understanding humans? Technological information can be devoid of the humanities. Books are written for people interested in humanity. The quality of the books and therefore the culture, matters. The internet just isn't the same.

Interesting point, this is something I have considered. All the people I know who are sceptical of climate change, or the appropriate response to the warnings from climate scientists, are over 70 years of age. It is about 75% of them. All the people I know under the age of 70 are fully onboard with the agenda as suggested by Bitter Crank, for example. Notable are every person I know under 20 years of age.
Indeed right across Europe, a young person who is sceptical on these issues is a great rarity. I expect, but don't know, that there are a portion of the younger age group in the US, who are sceptical for some reason. Is it the case do you think, that there is more scepticism on this in the US than elsewhere?
29 days ago
Reply
Options — Punshhh

It depends on the children's education. In Oregon our schools are educating children about climate change and the children have become politically active.

Climate change and weather are not the same thing! Global warm is not about hot days, which would be about weather. Global warming is about climate, meaning that our planet is hotter then it was. The climate in which weather happens has changed. I don't think the average person gets that.

how did we develop the world we live in without the internet? — Brett

With books and this did not becoming really meaningful until the west learned about paper and printing from the east and the books were made available to all those who who could afford them and eventually libraries made them available to even those who could afford them. Books spread knowledge in a away the internet can not. To find anything on the internet you have to know what you are look for and even then it may not come up on search.

For example what did Theodore Roosevelt say of women when the US mobilized for the first world war and how did schools support the war effort? This is human information that may not interest a robot. :grin:

t's probably a useful idea but the internet is the library of human knowledge. I feel like it is important but perhaps less than I assume. — Lif3r

Oh my goodness is that idea wrong. You will not find the valuable information that is in old books such as the series of books recording the early congressional debates of the US, nor the encyclopedia written by Theodore Roosevelt on line. You will not find an explanation of what education had to do with mobilizing the US for WWI and WWII on line. At least not if you don't know that is something you want to look for.

The O of U library had a department of books containing government documents and anyone could access them and just browse the books looking to see what is in them, such as the letter Eisenhower wrote praising the German contribution to the democracy, and without that little piece of information it is not possible to understand how Germany changed the US. I am saying there is important information in books that people will never know about because the books are no longer available. There is a digital record of them but you have to know exactly what information you want to get to it. No one is free to just browse the books and discover what is in them. We can not access information we know nothing about without the books to browse.

:lol: How old do you think I am?

What do you think we should be doing now? Personally, I am in favor of doing what I can do. My sister is taking college classes so she has a better understanding of the problems and what we can do. She suggested the things we could do and I just passed them on. I think sharing information is important, don't you?

I really don't know what you mean by an existential experience. As of the end of this day, I am homeless. Thankfully I know this is only temporary, and I have resources so I can put most of what is important to me in a storage shed and my medical insurance provides a pass to gyms so I can feel rich soaking in hot tubs and I can shower. At the moment my survival seems a little more important than having an existential experience.

However, it is possible everything is going as planned. That is, the mass of humanity on earth and all the things that are happening are part of a higher plan. You know the New Age thinking. This is the dawning of the angel Aquarius, a time of peace and high technology and the end of tyranny. The mass of humanity could be the result of souls being reincarnated just before a major transition. We can thank the tarot cards, and the Pyramid of Gisa, and the bible, and Aztecs, all speak of the end of times. Is that thinking having an existential experience?

I don't get it. Why would robots make anything better? What happens to the humans? If life is not good for humans what is the point?

How about shared hallucinations?

Ah, the earth has way too much humanity, adding more is like dropping bombs, because each one will add to the already too great consumption of earth resources. However, I believe having families is also very important, so the compromise is having no more than one child to replace each of us. Preferably only highly responsible and committed people reproduce themselves, because to raise a child who is a benefit to humanity and not a problem, requires a lot of effort and a loving desire to make that effort. Humans are not just naturally intelligent and good citizens. They must be nurtured to be of value to the rest of humanity.

As for blame, that is perhaps a silly notion, but a moral is a matter of cause and effect and carelessly reproducing, no matter what the circumstances, will lead to problems. We seriously need to get in touch with reality. There is no God who created humans next to the angels. We are of the animal kingdom and need to learn how to live in balance and harmony with the rest of nature. If we don't we are no blessing to this planet. Whatever is out of balance will be destructive.

Democracy is about citizens ruling themselves rather than being dependent on authority about them. That is why education is so important.

Do we have agreement that we can not maintain our way of life?

Do we agree that global warming will become increasingly costly in the way of extreme weather, flooding and fires, ice and excessive heat causing deaths of plants, animals, and humans, and the rising seas destroying land and agriculture?

What can we do?

We can spread information and check with the schools. Write letters to editors and post online to spread information. Perhaps read books or take college classes so we are better informed ourselves. Buy butcher paper and buy meat where it can be wrapped in butcher paper instead of put in plastic trays. When possible go to the store with containers can that can be refilled and buy bulk instead of prepackaged food. Always carry your own bags, and do not use straws when stopping for liquid refreshment.

Dospossible baby diapers and sanitary pads are huge environmental enemies. It is not just that can contaminate groundwater and take forever to degrade, but they consume resources and increase the cost of gas because they are an oil product as well as require trees. https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/dangers-of-disposable-diapers

We can use cloth diapers and pads. That is not convenient or pleasant but future generations deserve our care.

What else can we do? I am not saying these actions will save the world, but they buy us time.

Just for fun, here is Bob Hope and Jane Russell


but this is a better version of Buttons and Bows.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1ggNUKQL2Y


How about the Lawrence Welk Show

Another source of confusion can be attempting to solve a problem and not finding the solution. Sometimes the problem is ill-formulated and we don’t realize it and so we attempt to pursue something that cannot be found. Or the problem has a solution but because we don’t see/understand everything we have a hard time finding it.
— leo — fullofnull

Boy oh boy, is that true! I do workshops on healthy living designed by Standard, and they are so academic they don't relate well to the real human beings that participate in the workshops. It is the facilitator's job to humanize the information so it resonates with them and also give them some skills for thinking more logically, Such as a method of decision making. This is not just about language but also how we organize our thoughts.

I have been a domestic woman most of my life, and thinking domestically is very different from thinking academically, and if someone is in a subculture such as a street gang, the thinking will not be domestic nor academic. While the average Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Republican, Democrat will each have a different frame of mind for understanding the world. When the frame of mind is different, there will be a huge communication problem because so much of our communication depends on others sharing the information we have.

I am not necessarily saying this is inevitable, nor am I saying that it is the end of humanity. I'm just trying to think ahead in order to plan for possible outcomes based on public information. I don't see how it is a waste of effort unless the entire thing is a lie, in which case I will be thoroughly impressed with the organizational skills required to do so. — Lif3r

I think possibly the best book ever written for common people and understanding how our world works, is Youngquist book "Geodestinies". I knew him and I am quite sure he is dead now. He was a geologist and worked around the world. Then he became a geology professor. He wrote two books that I know of "Mineral Resources and the Destiny of Nations" and "Geodestinies". "Geodestinies" got special awards and finally, our local paper accepted the importance of his book after I got on them about that. I am saying really important information is not getting to the people, so we can not have faith in the masses. However, if you want to be well informed you can access the book here and give a copy to your local library and possibly highs schools. This is something real and meaningful we can do.

Geodestinies: The Inevitable Control of Earth Resources over ...
https://www.amazon.com › Geodestinies-Inevitable-Control-Resources-Indi...
There are many good books on peak oil, but none fly as high as Youngquist's "Geodestinies", giving you an eagle-eye view of how the world works from a ... — amazon

Well, the last few generations of Elders, having left us up Shit Creek without a paddle, seem to me to deserve about as much respect as some Chinese geese we once had to keep the lawn down - we lost track of them in the grass! I think that we need to distinguish very clearly between the material of history and the other subjects and those who have control of education. When I was a kid in the Rhondda, after what had been done to our people, about the only person we respected was Paul Robeson, and when I was in Cambridge about the only person I respected was Leavis, the great critic, who didn't much respect anyone else. It was a place full of rich snobs from public (your private?) schools, many on closed scholarships, and I was in perhaps the worst of all the colleges in that respect, so my reactions were just boredom and contempt. Isn't the stuff you are talking about available on the internet? An amazing amount of material does seem to be. I'm not unsympathetic with your views, but I feel that each generation is now adapted to the technology it is supposed it will be living with, and it cuts down on generational contacts, because capitalism will see to it that technology goes on developing fast. Wouldn't designing humanoid robots and bowing out with dignity be a preferable approach? — iolo

If I understand you correctly, your argument is that robots are better than humans? This is such a wonderful subject it deserves its own thread. Why would a robot care about anything?


It would be great if we could all watch the Britsh tv show "Humans" together and then share our impressions and concerns. This link provides ways to access the show
https://www.google.com/search?q=online+British+tv+show+%22Humans%22&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&oq=online+British+tv+show+%22Humans%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.34768j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Then I saw large amounts of money entering the picture, generalisations made about percentages, averages, of heating over long periods and historical figures on temperatures being altered. So many of the predictions made never happened and the horror stories that began to appear became standard forecasts, even though they were based on a worst-case scenario and unlikely to happen.
— Brett — Brett

So many of the predictions are happening, the language of scientist is has gotten stronger and the warning now says the changes are happening faster than expected. Where on the earth do you think wildlife is safe from the devastation of human activity?

Humans increased species extinction rate by 1,000 times, new study says. Plant and animal extinctions are occurring at a rate of at least 1,000 times faster than the time before humans, a new study says. ... On a pre-human earth, the death rate was 0.1, but that number spiked to between 100 to 1,000.May 29, 2014
Humans increased species extinction rate by 1,000 times, new ...
https://www.pbs.org › newshour › science › animal-extinctions — PBS

Walter Youngquist is a geologist who explains what we have done to the planet and the threats to natural habits and humans in his book GeoDestinies. How well do you understand the minerals essential to agriculture and where did you get your information?

How about the rain forest. If you want us to believe you are well informed, tell us why the forest are important and what is happening to them. What happened to trees in the US and why did it happen? How about what happened to the trees on Easter Island and the impact that had on the island. Tell us you know and instead of attacking us for believing we have some very serious problems. Give us reason to agree with you.

I don’t know if you failed to read this carefully or purposely misconstrued it.

It’s not faith in “the pharaoh” I mentioned but faith in ourselves, in who we are. What else could there be, who else should we have faith in? I don’t see how my faith in people is evidence of taking no interest in facts. Then you go on to blame me for something you made up. — Brett

I believe there is a good reason to have faith in humans, but that is conditional and we have met those conditions. That means our faith in humans is no better than past faiths, because the faith does not go with the necessary conditions for that faith. Do you want to argue unconditionally we should have faith in humans? How about why should we have faith in humans?

In a 1920's newspaper an article warned... "Given our know oil supply and rate of consumption, we are head for economic disaster and possibly war." All industrial economies collapsed and the world went to war. Following that, we dramatically increased our consumption of oil, and today people argue we have all the oil we need. I think the people who make that argument are poorly informed. Now convince me of why I should have faith in them.

Probably the archetype behind that film was EST. I did something similar in my twenties. — Wayfarer

I did EST and I chose to break contact with those people.

I am starting to read Plato from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and I'm enjoying it so far :). I want to read more about Aristotle, Socrates, and more. I know a bit of Marx, Hegel, Kant, and a few others but I have only read surface level content from all of them. If you have great resources that you like I would love them but only if you would like to send them. I would appreciate anything. Thank you again! — fullofnull

If you are interested in Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, know that Plato wrote the lessons of Socrates and taught Aristotle. Know that everything Socrates said was influenced by Sparta winning the war with Athens and controlling Athens, and that Aristotle favored Spartan control and authority and the Roman Christianity Church picked that authoritarianism. The more you study this stuff the more exciting it will be as it reveals what lies hidden in the western civilization subconscious. And know for everything we might admire about Sparta, in the end, it was self-destructive because they could not reproduce enough to keep Sparta strong.

This might be the best use of your time and money...

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If you go that site look for the course titled "Great Minds of the Western Intellectual Tradition".

I am glad you realized a more constructive way to think of your "disorder". Your "disorder" can be a gift but perhaps one difficult to live with because it means seeing things differently from others, so the gift comes with a challenge of getting others to see things differently. Others may think your thoughts are way out in left field or disorganized as right brian thinking is very creative and reorganizes thoughts in new ways. Developing good communication skills and your own confidence can bridge those problems and reveal your gift.

Well, I assume we write into the basic programme the ability to change in response to changing conditions. It is, after all, how our own evolution worked, and well within current possibilities, surely? — iolo

I think that is a wrong assumption. Only if we value a study of history do we keep ourselves as informed as we need to be. Unfortunately, with education for technology came disrespect of the elders because today we so much smarter than older people. Like every generation, our young think they are smarter only unlike previous generations we have turned the young against their elders in favor of faith in technology.

Unfortunately, I have a college education and burn with resentment towards some of my professors. Had I been young I would not have known better than to sit in awe of them. As an older student, I was often horrified by what they said. Not only do some of them insist information for papers be from the abstracts, but it must also be less than 10 years old. With this mentality, our university government document library emptied its shelves of the books recording government documents. Today no one can find information without knowing exactly what to look for and depending on a librarian to retrieve that information that is electronically stored. No more sitting with the old books and discovering what is in them. This is like blinding the whole population! I am horrified by what has been done. Information today is as controlled as when the Church had power. It is just a different set of people controlling it.

May all those who remember when things different raise their hand.

The fact that you suggest particular books to read that would “change” my mind means you’ve already put me in a particular camp, where I approve of mindless destruction in the name of capitalism. — Brett

Heavens no, I wasn't thinking that. I just know when we (all of us) have different opinions it is usually because we have read different things. :lol: I am one of those obnoxious people who is so sure of what I believe to be true, that I am sure if others were working with the same information they would agree with me. :grin:

It’s true that nature does work to keep things in balance, but it’s a dynamic planet so you can’t be sure of what exactly that balance is. My negative interpretation of your concern is that we can’t go back to your pagan way of life. The “hostile negativity’ is an effort to stop what I regard as a movement that will not help us or the planet, a movement incapable of dealing in reality and in the adaptability and extraordinary development of the species we are. — Brett

:lol: Your assumptions fill me with the joy of laughter. I will point out the Christians thought the Greeks were pagans and it is the Greeks who gave us philosophy and put us the path to science. They began with nature-based gods and goddesses. I think that was important to the development of their thought. The Greeks were not as materialistic as the Romans and unfortunately, although the Greeks gave the more barbaric Romans the bases of civilization, it was the materialistic (a belief in matter) Romans and then the Christians who became dominant. I see nothing incompatible with Greek paganism and science. And yes, I feel strongly about a consciousness that is in harmony with nature rather than a strongly materialistic consciousness.

Of course we are capable of damaging the environment, just by our sheer numbers alone, and there has been a lot of work done to mitigate this damage. There’s little doubt that people are generally healthier than they’ve ever been. True, some people are still struggling, but not in the same way they have in the past. — Brett

No people are not healthier than they were. 30 years ago that was true, but recently the health of younger people has gone to hell. Our government with its new focus on profits is not protecting us as it did when it first created controls of our food supply. The problem with diabetes has rapidly increased and we have spread it to third countries with products such as sodas. I am so ashamed of us. Restaurant meals are commonly not that healthy and commonly the servings are way too much. At Least Shari's, a northwest restaurant chain, gives people information of the calories in a meal.

Increasing Mortality and Declining Health Status in the USA ...
www.hhpronline.org › articles › 2018/10 › increasing-mortality-and-decli...
by S Bezruchka - ‎Related articles
Oct 11, 2018 - The National Center for Health Statistics reports that life expectancy is declining, and infant mortality is increasing 1. The reported life ... — S Bezruchka

What I find myself resisting is the doomsday mentality, not as extreme in your post, but still there by association. — Brett

As I said, you haven't read what I have read. If you did you would not be arguing.

It’s a lack of faith in who we are that I object to and belief that it’s all over I find the need to resist. I don’t see it as helpful to pass this on to the next generation. Of course help them to understand the importance of our relationship to the environment, but don’t crush their hope or educate them through fear. — Brett

When you are interested in knowing facts let us know. Only when people such as yourself are working with the facts, can we resolve serious problems. Going on "faith" in the pharaoh, or any other ruler who is supposed to have the power of keeping things in balance and pleasing the gods, or faith in technology and our new leaders is no better than past faiths.

We the people must take the responsibility of being well informed, and if you were, you would not speak of having faith, instead of facts. When a young child runs into the street screaming about the dangers of running into the street will do absolutely no good unless the child is old enough to know the meaning of all those angry words. Today our adults need to stop trusting and working on faith, and accept responsibility for learning and then acting on informed decisions. Unfortunately, education for technology has not prepared the young for growing up and taking responsibility. Education has become just bull shit about our superiority and how technology can resolve every problem, and prepared the young to be dependent on authority, on the "experts", instead of preparing them to be their own authority. I am stating this as a national, politically driven problem and culture change that is not good for us or the world.

Well. flesh-and-blood humans aren't, I think, likely to survive the capitalist climate Gotterdammerung, so if we want something to survive, robots seem the best bet, if we create them such that they evolve. — iolo

I am excited about reading your explanation of that statement.

I just realized this thread spins of pervious threads about language games. Here is a quote form a link about language games.

"Wittgenstein was intent on bringing out how ‘the “speaking” of language is part of an activity, or form of life’."

When we are teenagers effectively who we are (a dependent child) dies to become a yet unknown adult, sort of like the worm metamorphs into a butterfly. How are we to understand this without contemplating the meaning of life and death? Tempting fate may seem foolish but our knowledge of life comes through experience. Words do not have meaning without experience. To get close to death may stimulate our will to live?

To respond to the question "And what is confusion and how is it easily induced with language?" Without language can there be confusion? Without language what can we know? I think without language we can be aware of our feelings. We can judge how safe it is to take the fruit when sitting too near the alpha male or judge how safe it is to take other chances with our life. But confusion? No, I don't think we can be confused without language.

Oh my goodness it is so nice to read something written by a well-informed person.

The future of India looks very bad! https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/coastal-concerns-rising-sea-levels-will-inundate-coastal-areas-sooner-than-projected-/articleshow/71985765.cms

The satellite radar used by NASA paints a worse picture of our future than expected.

I am alarmed by someone flagging this thread for not being philosophical. I am not sure how moderators here handle such conflicts of interest, between those who want to remain blind to reality and keep everything pleasant, and those who want to raise awareness of problems with the hope we will use knowledge to resolve problems. Science comes out of philosophy, let us hope those who love philosophy do not turn their backs on science. Doesn't philosophy mean a love of knowledge? Should we shut down threads that are knowledge of things we don't want to think about?

Directly to your explanation of why cities are better than survivalist isolation, we need education for democracy for those cities to function well. It will be as we create it and without an understanding of democracy, we could have short sited ideas of survival and look more like the feudal period of our history than an evolved democracy.

Well. flesh-and-blood humans aren't, I think, likely to survive the capitalist climate Gotterdammerung, so if we want something to survive, robots seem the best bet, if we create them such that they evolve. — iolo

Excuse me but I must disagree with you. Not only do I find little value in life without humans, but robots also demand finite resources. A problem with electric cars is the finite resources required for their batteries. But what if we are God's consciousness? Can that be transferred to a robot? I don't think so.
And our planet sure does not need robots to preserve life. But many ancient cultures thought it was man's purpose to help nature. Too bad we don't live with that belief today.


God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man. The teaching of Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

What a bunch of pathetic, self indulgent losers. I don’t believe any of you really believe what you write. You insult everyone that’s come before you to forge a life out of nothing. — Brett

My goodness, that is a strong criticism. I am not exactly sure which statements you find so bad. But I think there are books that would change your mind. Such as this book ... by Izolda Trakhtenberg

Life Elements: Transform Your Life With Earth, Air, Fire and Water

Izolda worked at both the National Geographic Society and then NASA where she worked for the GLOBE Program. Envisioned by Vice President Al Gore in his book, Earth In The Balance, the GLOBE Program is a unique international partnership among students, teachers, and scientists where students study the earth and care for the environment. Izolda honed her teaching and training skills in workshops as she developed the training methodology for the Soil protocols and then traveled the world as a Master Trainer in the Atmosphere, Land Cover, Hydrology, and Soil protocols. This knowledge, these skills and her interest in ancient symbolism and methodologies further developed her insight into human interactions and tendencies. She saw the patterns and relationships among self-directed change, self-confidence, and ancient Elemental/environmental symbolism and synthesized them into the Life Elements System. — amazon

Nature works to keep things in balance and humans have greatly disrupted that balance. How could anyone not think this is a very important subject, or see as anything but concern for future generations and our planet? I happen to be a pagan who thinks caring for our planet is very important, and excuse me but humans have become a problem. Something is really wrong when people have such a negative interpretation of our concern. Why all the hostile negativity directed towards those of us who sincerely care about future generations and the planet?