I don't need the fake hope of fictitious god's to help me in my life, I just need good people like yourself to exist. — universeness

You do know my effort in the forum would be completely useless without someone who understands what I am saying as you are understanding the thoughts. I could not think the thoughts your agreements bring to mind, if you were attacking me instead of understanding what I am saying.

Here is the miracle of democracy- it is what happens when our minds meet in agreement. The way of Apollo must begin with a willingness and ability to understand each other. When this happens there is enlightenment and those involved can see even more than they did in the beginning of the communication.

Christianity can be deadly to the necessary process as a belief that we know God's truths, blinds us from knowing truth. As soon as we think we know God, we know not God, but only our mental representation of God.

Bottom line, my thinking is only as good as yours.

↪Athena which gods and why are we modelling our lives on these gods? I know if other gods that work differently. Why do we even have to reason it, isn't there some hand-me-down history from these gods? — New2K2

Well yes, it is the history of democracy as it originated in Athens. The folks of Athens asked, how do the gods resolve their differences? As you know, their gods had plenty of differences, and yet they are immortal so they can not resolve their differences by killing each other. Their conflicts went on until reason ended the conflict.

One of the most important gods isApollo, the god of reason. I don't know if any other mythology has a god of reason. Apollo was born when Athens was in turmoil which pressured people to rethink everything and come up with some solutions. You probably know Socrates was opposed to some of the stories of the gods and he asked...

Is Zeus a good god? Everyone was sure he was. Then Socrates asks, is it good to commit adultry, and everyone knew of the trouble in Zeus's and Hera's marriage, and they had to answer, no, it is not good to commit adultery. See the dilemma? Can evil gods do good? Athenians did not believe evil people could do good. If good happened because of the actions of an evil person, that was just a fluke.
Socrates is known for speaking against democracy and yet he also died for it.

I think those who say Socrates spoke against democracy are missing the most important point of what he said. He said ignorance is a terrible thing and that makes a democracy of ignorant people a terrible thing. The gods did not have good morals and Socrates pleaded that Athenians to take up the problem of ignorance and stop feeding citizens stories of the gods that leads to bad behavior. Here is where Apollo is extremely important and there can not be a democracy without Apollo, the god of reason.

Socrates was opposed to spending time on such things as questioning what is the substance of life and is the universal element an atom. Socrates was concerned with our consciousness and moral judgment. Yet today we can easily see how the understanding of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, also shapes our understanding of gods.

Athenians stand out as unique because they broke away from supernatural explanations of everything, and began looking for the physical cause of all things. This put humans on a totally different path from the rest of Asia. It is a secular path and it led to democracy. The Bible is no better for democracy than Homer's stories of the gods.

Democracy is not the rule of the people, it's the rule of the majority. No government can ever achieve true democracy and maintain it for two generations. — New2K2

Democracy is rule by reason. It begins with asking, how do the gods resolve their differences and concluding they argue until there is a consensus on the best reasoning. Only when we get our understanding of what is, and what we want right, can we get good results.

Democracy is not efficient. Autocracy is efficient. We are still working on getting our act together and we are still dealing with the mentality that supported kings as authority over the people. We are as autocratic as we are democratic and we seem to understand autocracy and the good reasoning for it, a whole lot better than we understand democracy.

What we achieve, depends on how we educated our children and why we educate them. Public education is like a genii in a bottle. The stated purpose is the wish and the students are the genii.

We live in very exciting times, perhaps it has been ever thus for every human generation. Such is the nature of relativity. — universeness

I know historically when we harnessed electricity and could lite our streets, people thought we were in the Age of Enlightenment.

Humanity has not always progressed as it has since the Age of Reason, that moment in time when our loyalty shifted from the authority to explain everything and dictate what and how things would be done, to relying on our own reasoning and giving the power to the people to decide what will be and how it will be. Before this moment in time, we were in the Dark Ages and yes they were really dark because the Church had destroyed liberty in a fight for its power. Scholasticism began making things right by reviving the thousands of years of progress that ancient civilizations had made before the Church took control.

However, from the time of the change in authority from a few with power and authority to everyone having a say in governing decisions, we did not have the vast knowledge we have now, nor the material means to make life totally different. We are in a moment in time that will change the human experience as much as our experience of life was changed when we climbed down from the trees.

We are in the Resurrection. Geologists, anthropologists, and related sciences are resurrecting our past and it is our duty to learn everything we can from them and to rethink everything we believe to be true. We have gone from Socrates' mandate to know ourselves as individuals, to knowing ourselves as a species. And so, as it is in heaven it will be one earth. But God didn't build Noah's ark and He is not going to clean up the earth and make it new. We are 100% responsible for what will be. Only by getting our act together can we have free will and heaven on earth.

Personally I was never able to believe in god/s, even as a child. I've never had a sensus divinitatis and the idea of theism was never coherent to me. I only got interested in the arguments used to prove or disprove god because the apologists thought reason could be aggressively mustered in their defence. — Tom Storm

I may still be in the church with a leader like John Shelby Spong. I struggled with superstitious fears when I was young and this became an extremely serious part of my life when I was in my early 30's. That is an age of transition and for some of us, it is a very difficult time. I had to make a choice, either I was possessed by the devil or all those boogieman stories of the devil and demons were false beliefs and in reality, I am 100% responsible for what I do. I am very glad I decided those superstitious ideas were false. However, at that time Satanism became very popular and some years later, my daughter had a friend who went to prison with another friend for their satanic killing of one of the girls. And I have seen other people suffering because of false beliefs. I am not so sure freedom of religion is 100% a good thing. Religion and ignorance can be a terrible mix.

That is not the only problem I see with religion. Our education and justice systems are very seriously hindered by religious notions and this is a serious problem for a democracy.

The Christian 'sects' cannot even decide if they believe in monotheism or not.
An angel or a demon or even an Islamic jinn are not humans, so what are they?
Is Satan a lesser god? are angels, demons, jinn's etc lesser gods compared to humans?
If so, then Christianity's monotheistic claims are open to question, are they not?
Perhaps they could claim there is a 'godhead'/leader/originator but, according to Christians, it seems to require not only deference to it but also to its other supernatural creations such as angels! — universeness

Well thank you. It seems to me denial is a large part of believing. I have heard and read that Satan played a much larger role in Christian beliefs than is so today. We stopped beating Satan out out of children. Christians did not see God as a loving God instead of a jealous, revengeful and punishing God until our bellies were full and most of enjoyed a relative high degree of security. I find the Christian belief totally confusing. How can anyone know if it is Satan making their lives miserable or God punishing them?

Why does Jesus keep referring to his Father in heaven, if he is that Father, and if he is not that Father, there is more than one god and that is a blasphemous idea because the defining characteristic of Christianity is monotheism. I believe Hebrews were okay with many gods. Why else would God be a jealous god if there were none to compete with Him.

And please, what is the logic of breaking away from Judaism, God's favorite people, who know God's word and claiming Christians somehow have the authority to change the rules? Hey that could make a good discussion? This subject could look like a dog chasing its own tail. Christians correct Judaism, Protestants correct Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Many, many new comers come in with better protestant explanations of God's truth and are Mormons Christians or something else? Is a Catholic a Christian? Like I said, it can all be rather confusing.

That's ok, it's easily explained. The matrix is a series of sci-fi movies, starring Keanu Reeves. You could easily get a synopsis of the plot from a wee google search, if you have never watched them.
Yes! VR/AR is virtual reality/augmented reality. VR is a total simulation. AR uses the real world as the background and augments your experience by adding virtual characters and events.
If you have never experienced a good quality VR headset experience, I would highly recommend it.
It really can completely fool your senses, your brain can have real difficulty not reacting to what you are experiencing, as if it was really happening. VR/AR is still in it's infancy but it's possibilities are very powerful indeed. Perhaps in the future, we may achieve holodeck tech such as: — universeness

It would be wonderful if we could use this technology instead of drugs. How about replaying history and changing it and watching what happens when history is changed. I love the original Nintendo games and being able to redo the past section of the game and get better results.

Also I remember a movie where a grieving person was able to sit and talk with someone who past. That would be so wonderful. Maybe we could resolve many personal problems with such technology? Psychotherapy linguistics makes a person aware of how s/he remembers the past and then rethinking it because linguistics is about how we talk to ourselves and tell our life stories in a new way. We can change our story and change our lives. With better technology the process could be even more effective.

I bookmarked the other video and love that it spoke of Daniel Kahneman. His perspective can also be life-changing. His perspective gives new meaning to Socrates' "know thy self". This is an important part of understanding secular morality and the sense of responsibility that self-governing people must have.

If reason, rationality, exemplification and even demonstration, fails, after many attempts, and we are (I hope) barred, from forcing an individual to support all efforts to create a progressive, humanist, secular, global, society which is benevolent to all species and all universal objects that come into the sphere of influence of the human race. Then I think the best we can offer the dissenters(and the criminal or nefarious), is regular or perhaps even permanent (matrix style) existence in a VR/AR world where they can experience the 'rapture,' of their choice, until they die. — universeness

I am sorry but I do not have the information necessary to understand what you said. I do not know what matrix style is or VR/AR worlds. Do those letters stand for virtual reality and artificial reality? If those letters mean either, I do not have any thoughts of such needed for meaningful meaning. Those words are only words to me without meaning as some possible world realities.

Exactly. And many Christians are of this view. I grew up in the Baptist tradition and we were taught that Genesis was a myth used to explain our world to a pre-scientific age. No one would have dreamed of taking this or Noah's ark story literally. That's for fundamentalists - a particular expression of religion that seems to take comfort in literalism. — Tom Storm

But that is what the Reformation is about. The Reformation is putting an end to men tinkering with the Bible and creating a religion that deviates from God's truth.

This is also a matter of logic. Higher-order thinking skills prepare individuals for abstract thinking. In the past, well-educated people were taught higher-order thinking skills. Those without this education think literally. It is exactly as the Bible says it is and it is not up to individual interpretation. That was what was wrong with the authority of the Catholic church, individuals in authority wrongly interpreted the Bible, so lay people had to learn how to read the Bible for themselves, so no one could get away with misrepresenting God's truth.

One more thing- where does deciding what the Bible means, stop? Do Baptists believe in demons and angels and how much is Satan a part of the religion? How about slavery? Does the Bible justify slavery or make slavery taboo? What are the boundaries of deciding truth for oneself?

Just how literal one wants to get with the Bible will depend on how you read it. There is hyperbole, figurative language, and stories. The Bible says the world has 4 corners. It says geocentrism is true. It says this at least to those who interpret it that way. Religious stories are all over the ancient world and creations claims are prominent — Gregory

I think we can agree that creation stories are not intended to be anything like scientific truth. They are stories made up for psychological and social reasons. That is they are mythologies, even the Biblical story is mythology. At least 5 Biblical stories appear to be plagiarized from Sumerian stories. Abraham began in Ur a former Sumerian city with a Sumerian library.

This progress is not the result of some cosmic force. It is a gift of the Enlightenment: the conviction that reason and science can enhance human flourishing. — universeness

Pinker shows that life, health, prosperity, safety, peace, knowledge, and happiness are on the rise, not just in the West, but worldwide. T — universeness

What is the name of that book or where do I find that information? I have heard the New Age is a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tyranny. The people of the New Age will not be able to relate to our past because their experience of life will not give them the information they need to relate to a more primitive time. That is like us trying to relate to the first humans venturing out of Africa. I believe we are headed in that the New Age direction and have been on that path since the Enlightenment.

I am listing to a professor's explanation of the Enlightenment. :rofl: I pay attention to all explanations of the Enlightenment because it was such a pivotal time in history. Do you realize the philosophy of that time, the conviction of reason making life better, triggered the Awakening. The Awakening is the birth of Evangelical Christianity. It is theologians defense of religious doctrine and I mention this because I think that is one of the barriers to fully manifesting the New Age that needs to be corrected BUT!

We can not get rid of religious notions that prevent progress without raising awareness of what reason has to do with a high morality and democracy.

Martin Luther King, would not have the huge success he has today if his principles were not coming from our documents such as our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Martin Luther King is winning even in death because only a hypocrite would argue against his dream being universal justice and liberty for all. Perfect harmony with democratic principles. World wars increased the strength of the struggle for justice and liberty for all because we called on people of color to defend those values in war. We sent them into war to fight for what we denied them and Martin Luther King organized the movement to make justice and liberty for all a reality for all.

In the present, it may be people of color who save our democracy because they have to fight for a more perfect manifestation of that democracy and sadly they have to fight against some of our most patriotic citizens who are still prejudiced and in denial of the wrongs done.

:clap: and if you look back into the history of the most democratic nations today, their 'upper class,' used to refer to the majority of people who lived there, as 'peasants' or 'serfs,' or even just 'scum.' — universeness

:clap: and if you look back into the history of the most democratic nations today, their 'upper class,' used to refer to the majority of people who lived there, as 'peasants' or 'serfs,' or even just 'scum.' — universeness

I really think that is a matter of power, who has it and who does not. With power comes respect and the more important education is to getting things done, the more power and respect educated people have. I think our democracy and universal education has greatly increased individual power but we seem to be developing an attitude that destroys human dignity, appreciation, and respect. I am afraid our republic has been on the same path the German republic took. Our materialistic focus has damaged our values and our past goal of human dignity a priority. There was a time when we valued people for their character.

no. Whatever explanation the atheist gives, the Christian can give too if they wish. If there is no need to suppose that God created this place, then all options are open — Bartricks

In this case, who is authority about "God" and what makes the authority legitimate? Are there any verifiable reasons for believing the Biblical explanation of Creation? Like can DNA test support the idea that a god made us of mud as opposed to believing in evolution? Do the Sumerian stories of Creation and the Flood support the truth of creation and people being made of mud, even though in the Sumerian stories it is a Goddess not a God who makes people with mud, just as the people made images of their own patron gods and goddesses.

I am not a Christian. I do believe in God. But I don't believe God created the world we live in. It doesn't look like the kind of place an all-good person would create. But Christians typically do believe that God created the world. Why? — Bartricks

What other explanation can there be? I am not Christian and I do not have a problem with the notion of an universal god. For me it is futile to argue the existence of "God" but really? how believable is the Christian explanation of God and creation? It just is not right to be forced to believe an unbelievable story of "God" and denied any other understanding of "God", disrespecting and possibly killing those who have different beliefs.

Today there is even now a popular 'hype' philosophy like "optimistic nihilism". But to me personally, it's just the same basically with hedonism, which basically it all sounds the same, eg: "just live in the present moment, enjoy life, since we only live once!". But again, is this all there is to life? existence? It still feels pointless, in the end, in the grand scheme of things. — niki wonoto

Each god and goddess is an archetype of a purposeful life. When I was younger I followed Demeter the goddess of motherhood and growing things. When my children left home, I began following Athena, the goddess who taught men how to rule themselves. I am a small part of something much bigger than myself. Apollo is important for reasoning and creativity. Like how big does our purpose have to be to be valid and important?

His organizational backbone was religious. I explained this earlier. — frank

His organizational backbone was democracy coming out of the enlightenment and the belief that science and preparing everyone to be good citizens would improve our lives, which it has.

“True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice.” The US stands for liberty and justice. That is a higher morality but there is a problem with not preparing the young for good moral judgment because without education for that there can not be liberty as that leads to authoritarianism and looks more like what happened to Germany's republic when Hitler took control by appealing to people's anger and frustration.

In any case, the topic is specifically about democracies. Democracy requires a lot of support in order to effectively function as a democracy. — praxis

All cultures live by social agreements. I am glad I am not living in a conservative Muslim society where a woman can be killed because her head was not properly covered. I am glad I live in a country where someone who acts like Hitler can be put on trial and hopefully prevent what happened when Hitler was in a power in a more authoritarian country, perverting the teaching of Nietzsche and embracing the mentality of thugs who make killing people who are seen as defective, acceptable.

However, the steps taken in the US following 911 might give a person reason to be concerned. Who ever thought in the US people would be denied public transportation if they did not have the required Identification? Or that thugs could come so close to taking over the Capitol Building with a belief that this could become an overthrow of our established government.

I think some people here have no knowledge of the rest of the world and how lucky they are to be in a democratic society where human rights are protected and the quality of life is high compared to some more conservative countries where might makes right, not the rule of law.

That was an awesome explanation of our responsibility. May I ask where and when you got your education? Are there any books you recommend?

I have a copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference explaining the teachers' role in making good citizens, patriotic citizens, and the Democracy Series of grade school text books written when we began mobilizing for the second world war. Before education for technology the priority purpose of education was defending democracy in the classroom, so the students could make us a strong democracy, as Thomas Jefferson said education must do, and as you explained our need to be educated and responsible.

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Good enough to have a pretty firm grasp on the sequence of events. Not good enough to follow your line of deduction from 4th c BCE Athens to 20th c America. — Vera Mont

Where is the break in my explanation that is a problem? I did not mention how Plato and Aristotle and Greek dualism, in general, influenced the church. Should I start back there or is it okay to start with Scholasticism which was built on Plato and Aristotle? Do you think Europe getting access to the Chinese technology of making paper and printing affected the general consciousness of who has authority and what makes authority legitimate? I don't know how to respond because I don't know where you see a problem in the sequence of events.

Nothing. No European nation in the 15th to 17th century had any qualms about subjugating peoples who were less well armed than they were.
It's not about Reason. It's about profit vs. conscience.
The Quakers saw this quite clearly... I wonder why all those sophisticated, educated, bewigged and worldly gentlemen did not. — Vera Mont

The Age of Enlightenment is about very different reasoning. How good is your knowledge of history? The Age of Enlightenment follows Scholasticism. The change happened very slowly and you need this information for your arguments. If you can, imagine yourself as a serf with no education except maybe to learn a trade and of course learn some of what the Bible says about demons and angels and obeying God and then think through what is to follow. All you know about the world is what you have seen in your lifetime and it is unlikely you got more than ten miles from where you began life. You as a serf are not part of this change but it is beginning to happen.

Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical organic method of philosophical analysis predicated upon the Aristotelian 10 Categories. Christian scholasticism emerged within the monastic schools that translated scholastic Judeo—Islamic philosophies, and thereby "rediscovered" the collected works of Aristotle. Endeavoring to harmonize his metaphysics and its account of a prime mover with the Latin Catholic dogmatic trinitarian theology, these monastic schools became the basis of the earliest European medieval universities, and scholasticism dominated education in Europe from about 1100 to 1700.[1] The rise of scholasticism was closely associated with these schools that flourished in Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and England.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism — Wikipedia

Now OMG!:gasp: The whole world is turned upside down! No longer is the church the only authority! No longer is everything controlled by a God! And those Quakers you mentioned were led by men who read the classics and communicate with each other across national boundaries. This is not so for all Protestant denominations but thanks to the Muslim trade routes Europe has paper and Gutenberg's printing press makes Bibles and Greek and Roman classics accessible. Now the individual can read and determine for one's self what to believe. This is a completely different life than serfs had before the Age of Discovery opened the world.

Bacon, born in 1561 really heats up the debates with inductive reasoning and there is a backlash against the church, scholasticism, and Aristotle (deductive reasoning).

Bacon has been called the father of empiricism.[7] He argued for the possibility of scientific knowledge based only upon inductive reasoning and careful observation of events in nature. He believed that science could be achieved by the use of a sceptical and methodical approach whereby scientists aim to avoid misleading themselves. Although his most specific proposals about such a method, the Baconian method, did not have long-lasting influence, the general idea of the importance and possibility of a sceptical methodology makes Bacon one of the later founders of the scientific method. — Wikipedia

Individuality and individual self-will, and deductive and inductive reasoning, and empiricism, are a whole different world. You flee to the city where you may gain your freedom if you are there long enough, and this is not God's will but your own will. :up:

And, as to the complexity of the slave issue....? — Vera Mont

Good question. In ancient times slavery did not have the same moral characteristics it has today. In the past, a slave was simply someone who lost a war. Slavery was an improvement over killing everyone. Also the conditions of slavery make an important difference. Unfortunately, light-skinned people did not see dark-skinned people as humans just like themselves, and this led to different rules of slavery than they had when they were enslaving their own kind.

The Bible was used to justify slavery and the Bible was used to argue against slavery. I am blown away by the fact that Christians in the West do not know the passages regarding slavery. I don't know if you want to get into this but in the US we might want to know more about the Bible and slavery. Darwinism also played a role in justifying slavery. I have a modern (less the 20 years old) book about education that says people with dark skin are biologically different from people with light skin. :gasp: The author of that book needs to learn more about genetics. I was shocked that today someone could publish such a racist book. When someone takes a position of authority, such as an author, that person needs to be held to a higher standard.

Bottom line the right or wrong of slavery is a matter of conscience. Ignorant people are blind to their errors in thinking. We have evolved our higher conscience thanks to having a constitution that was formed with thinking from the age of Enlightenment and the notion that individuals have rights. That was not exactly so in the time of Athens. Athens did not have the concept of individuality that we have today. Ancient Greeks were still more like tribes with a tribal identity, not an individual identity.

In Athens, people could argue just about anything in a court, but as they fought for their rights, it wasn't exactly their individual rights, but a matter of justice. Socrates argued what is justice and that is, how, do we as a people, survive and avoid the punishment of the gods? We still live with the remnants of this thinking. We may fear God will punish us if the people in the town are sinful, and tolerating homosexuality will bring on the wrath of God. We like to believe we survive hurricanes because God favors us and protected us. Whatever, I am trying to say, slavery is not wrong when you have a different set of beliefs than what those who believe in human rights hold as true and important. And some slaves had better lives than industrial workers in the north who were exploited and then dumbed when they were no longer useful. Today it is hard to comprehend such thinking.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe
— Athena

Sounds nice. What does it mean in daily life? — Vera Mont

First, it means maturing and being okay with knowing individuals do not know that much. It is being old enough and experienced enough to begin to understand the meaning of all the facts. Knowing facts is not equal to knowing their meaning. This also goes with learning to ask questions. Part of learning good reasoning is learning logic (math) but logic alone does not equal wisdom.

Education is essential to developing wisdom. That can be informal life lessons. Traveling and experiencing other cultures is very helpful. Reading with the goal of expanding one's conscience is important. Studying philosophy and debating it with others is very helpful.

Keeping in harmony with the universe means observing nature and how it works. It means knowing logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and good manners. In the past gods represented the forces of nature and today our sciences help us understand the universal laws.

As in influencing policy? Seriously, which farm-hand, miner or railway porter ever got within sniffing distance of active leadership? — Vera Mont

I took action that resulted in changing a city law and another period of action created a law that gives Grandparents rights totally changed the department of children's services policy. I was also an advocate for the homeless and a lot has happened since I got that ball rolling. That is very much what our democracy is about. Anyone one of us can write letters to the editor, write letters to a representative, and might even meet with them. We can take action on the city, county, and state levels. We can organize groups for different things and public support. We can even run for the presidency.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. — Athena


When it coalesces, yes. I don't think yours did.

Democracy is a complex concept. — Athena


Not really. Every citizen has a right to choose leaders and influence policy.

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson — Athena


Bullshit, Tom! You wanted to keep your slaves, including your own bastard children.
Hypocrisy we have always with us - past and present.

Also corruption, will to power and dominance, deception, avarice, aggression, resentment, jealousy, arrogance and rage, mental illness, religious delusion, addiction, bigotry and plain old everyday disagreement.
America has never closely resembled its own image of itself or the image it presents to the world. But then, neither does any other country. Some are just more opaque than others; some have been luckier; some are more demographically diverse. Some nations, like individual persons, have a self-image that's less distorted than others'. — Vera Mont

Ouch, democracy is far more than choosing leaders. It is also about being one of them. Democracy is o about producing leaders and those leaders must have willing followers or they can not lead. Democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people.

What is important is the wisdom to keep things in harmony with the universe and education is essential to that task. Democracy is about the whole not separate and divided individuals. Of course this is not understood without literacy in Greek and Roman classics. The importance of morals to democracy is no longer understood and our amoral democracy seems on the verge of self destruction.

Thomas Jefferson wrote a law to free the slaves. https://www.monticello.org/slavery/paradox-of-liberty/thomas-jefferson-liberty-slavery/ The slavery issue was a complex one and judging people and what happened without understanding the complexity is not wisdom. Not everyone in Jefferson's day was well educated and therefore not everyone was influenced by the reasoning of the Enlightenment. Jefferson was influenced by the reasoning the enlightenment and I think it is important to hold a better understanding of his struggle and what the enlightenment has to do with opposition to slavery. We can not directly experience the enlightenment but we can learn about it in books.

One of my problems with the ontological existence of patterns in a mind-independent world, and the relations between their parts, is where exactly do they exist.

When looking at the image, we know that A and B are part of one pattern and D and E are part of a different pattern.

But within the mind-independent world, where is the information within A that it is part of the same pattern as B but not the same pattern as D. If there is no such information, then within the mind-independent world, patterns, and the relations between their parts, cannot have an ontological existence.

One could say that patterns and relations have an abstract existence, in that they exist but outside of time and space. This leaves the problem of how do we know about something that exists outside of time and space. I could say that I believe that unicorns exist in the world but outside of time and space, but as I have no knowledge of anything outside of time and space, my belief would be completely unjustifiable.

One could say that the force experienced by A due to B is sufficient to argue that as A and B are related by a force, this is sufficient to show that A and B are part of the same pattern. However, even though A may experience a force, there is no information within the force that can determine the source of the force, whether originating from B or D. This means that there is no information within the force experienced by A that can determine one pattern from another.

Question: Sentient beings observe patterns in a mind-independent world, but for patterns to ontologically exist in a mind-independent world, there must be information within A that relates it to B but not D. Where is this information? — RussellA

Clearly you speak of Plato's forms and also Aristotle's declaration that only matter is real.

Your picture shows the movement of water and the movement of land but the pattern is a result of temperature not just the movement of water and land. The picture does not tell the whole story but leaves out the most important part. Rapid expansion and rapid contraction that changes the form of land.

I am not sure that matter contains ontological information? I think information is what our minds do when we observe something. This is a little tricky. If we see a fossil in the dirt, we take measurements and determine what the animal was and perhaps even when it died, but are those facts information? Do the rings of a tree give us information or just facts and from there it takes an intelligence to make the facts meaningful information.

Not in the least. In fact, you seem to have thrown a lot of ideas into a big pot, but, like America, they refused to melt into an alloy. — Vera Mont

I replied to you 4 days ago, but didn't quote you so I have copied and pasted my reply with the hope you will reply.

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. Democracy is a complex concept.

If we can not bring back my grandmother's way of teaching, our democracy is doomed. Thomas Jefferson and teachers understood that. Since you do not like my efforts to explain what the Age of Enlightenment has to do with education and democracy, I will quote Kucinich and Thomas Jefferson. Right now most voters seem to lack the principles that are important to democracy and that is a problem.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both."
Thomas Jefferson

"To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the college and university. The object is to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country, for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind, which, in proportion to our population, shall be double or treble of what it is in most countries."
Thomas Jefferson

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

"To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens...this brings us to the point at which are to commence the higher branches of education . . . . To develop the reasoning faculties of our youth, enlarge their minds, cultivate their morals, and instill into them the precepts of virtue and order."
Thomas Jefferson

"The objects of this primary education . . . would be . . . to form the statesmen, legislators and judges, on whom public prosperity and individual happiness are so much to depend." Thomas Jefferson

Agent Smith
8.2k
↪Athena
I see. So, if I may ask, what's the German model? Are we talking about the bureaucracy or education here? Did you know America is #1 in tertiary education? — Agent Smith

Of course I want people to ask questions and think about what I am saying. As for they US being #1 in tertiary education, that has nothing to do with democracy and not much to do with culture even though universities teach art and music, because what the elite learn is not important to the masses. In a democracy citizens must be well educated to be good voters and that is not happening.

“God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Cicero


“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

Cicero was a Roman Statesmen educated in Athens before Christianity. To have "right reasoning" is be knowledgeable of the philosophy that put us on the path to science. It is to know logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. By eighth grade a student better know virtues and principles and be prepared for life long learning and taking responsibility for the whole country. If this does not happen the democracy will self destruct.

The Prussian model for bureaucracy is a handful of people set policy and even if all the generals are killed things move forward as the policy dictates. The identify every job that needs to be done and define exactly how it will be done. This produces a mechanical society where individuals know their job and nothing more. They are to do exactly what they are told to do and nothing more. They are specialized and are glueless about what everyone else is doing.

But our forefathers were generalists and didn't have a concept of merit hiring and IQ testing and controlling all the details. Their focus was on a person's character. The character was everything. Reasonably intelligent people can learn anything but a person with a bad character is not likely to change and becomes like a rotten apple in the barrel. We learned an American mythology and we learned about our national heroes, because we are supposed to become like them. We are supposed to be virtuous and act on principles, and we are supposed to give service to our country. We do not have one book for teaching us this, like the Christians have the Bible, but the education is essential to our liberty and not fearing we could be shot down if we go to a mall for Christmas shopping.

In the old stupid days, people did a job based on their interest and talents and when someone died and had to be replaced, the new person would do the job differently and everyone would have to adjust. That could throw a large organization into total chaos! When Lincoln was killed the nation went into chaos. I know you are thinking we change presidents regularly and this thought needs to be followed by how everyone following policy means the train of events keeps moving and turning things around takes time.

It is the difference between these bureaucratic models that makes the change in education dramatically different. We are no longer generalizing and repairing everyone to be civic and industrial leaders so where are leaders coming from? Look at Trump and his family. The leaders are coming from those in power. Or the children of immigrants who were inspired by the American ideals much more so than those who take our democracy for granted and now expect the government to take care of them. Our focus on merit and is not giving us the leadership and supporters of that leadership that a democracy must have. With the present bureaucratic model, people just need to follow policy and it is best if that is all they think about. That is the opposite of the ideal citizen in our past.

So, I'm not sure who you have a beef with - the bureaucracy or politicians? The question Hannah Arendt asked is critical to the plot of course.

I'd say we need ta dig a little deeper and try some role swapping along the way. "Are we worthy to be saved, o lord?" muttered the kneeling pries — Agent Smith

Bureaucratic order is everything.

It is really important to understand what bureaucratic form has to do with the power of government to control or influence our lives. I have repeatedly said the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and with the German model of education this gets what we defended our democracy against. Unfortunately I am not understanding why my words are meaningless to everyone and what I can do about that. If people got what I am saying, the discussion would be very interesting to me.

Yes, what we see as patterns have emerged through natural processes in nature millions of years before there was any sentient being to observe them.

I would say that we discover patterns in nature rather than create them in our minds, as it is in the nature of sentient beings to discover patterns in the world around them.

However, any discussion is complicated by the metaphorical nature of language, in that the words "emerge", "natural", "nature", "create", "processes", "discover" and "mind" are metaphorical rather than literal terms. Trying to describe literal truths in a mind-independent world using language that is inherently metaphorical is like trying to square the circle. — RussellA

I love that explanation. :heart: It fits perfectly with what I was thinking. Life is constant change but our language focuses on material manifestations, things. We have lost all the animism from our understanding of life. So a form is no longer Plato's understanding of form being manifest from an external force. But animation is a cartoon we create. :chin: Sometimes poetry seems better for understanding than our Romanized language of things. If I knew I had 300 years to live, I would study Chinese so I could think of everything as that language explains life.

One of my problems with the ontological existence of patterns in a mind-independent world, and the relations between their parts, is where exactly do they exist. — RussellA

That is an exciting thought.

When we discover a pattern or a relation, we are discovering an inherent part of human nature, not something that ontologically exists in a mind-independent world. — RussellA

Those geometric patterns emerge through natural processes. :wink:
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/11/why-is-irelands-giants-causeway-shaped-like-that/

You speak of patterns being created by our mind but this seems to miss what nature has to do with patterns.

I don't know much about education. I don't have the relevant qualification. I remember, rather vaguely, attending classes in high school and then a few lecture halls back in my college days but alas these do not add up to an appropriate credential
to comment any further than I already have which, as you would've noticed, is an example of someone talking out his/her bung hole, er, I mean hat!

God points though. You seem to be aware of the flaws in our system, but as I reported in the climate change thread, something really weird is going on. — Agent Smith

I have had a super great morning so far. I unexpectedly found something in my files about the WWII war crime trials that is perfect for my arguments. Now I just need to figure out how to do a new thread that will attract more people who can help me think things through.

The 1958 change in education in the US has produced people who can not reason independently, leading to reactionary politics and other problems. Education for technology is not education for independent thinking and is intentionally education for "group think". One would think education for "group think" would be ideal for democracy but- group thinkers are dependent followers, not independent thinkers. And there are social, economic, and political ramifications to this change.

The US adaptation of the German model of bureaucracy seems a logical improvement over the extremely efficient bureaucracy we had. Seriously we could not be a world power without that adjustment. Please ask questions. I am dying here trying to figure out how to say things so they are understood. This is a control issue. How has authority and power? Let me try this...

The Nazi were not evil people but people controlled by bureaucracy and educated to be like parts that serve the Borg.

https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil

Can one do evil without being evil? This was the puzzling question that the philosopher Hannah Arendt grappled with when she reported for The New Yorker in 1961 on the war crimes trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Nazi operative responsible for organizing the transportation of millions of Jews and others to various concentration camps in support of the Nazi’s Final Solution.

I must leave the man I am trying to help on the streets in freezing weather, or I could lose my housing and he would not be able to get the help he needs to get the appropriate independent housing. That is bureaucratic control of our lives. It is immoral because there is no human connection with people on the streets like in Germany there was no connection with the Jews. People are just doing what they have to do for their own benefit. Failure to submit to the bureaucrat control can mean serious sacrifices such as losing housing or a job. Excuse my pagan aphorism but damnit why is it so hard for everyone to see what has happened and what increasing technology is going to do to our liberty and freedom? Technology will give some people excellent jobs with excellent pay and benefits, while it will marginalize all those who are not absorbed into the system. The masses will get public assistance and they will also be very controlled by fear of losing these benefits if they do not submit to the bureaucracy.

While Christians like to believe they get the credit for our liberty and democracy, the belief that we are born into sin can lead to a very controlling bureaucracy over the people. The US left moral training to the church and the church is not the best for liberty. Believing we are born in sin and need to be saved is very different from believing education can bring out the best in humanity.

is it ethical for technological automation top be stunted, in order to preserve jobs (or a healthy job marketplace — Bret Bernhoft

If the purpose of education is about preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values, what happens to the nation?

The education system is not an issue then - if it has been, as you say, reworked. I'm not complaining, being myself a beneficiary of the US education system in both direct and indirect ways. I don't think I would be where I am (not exactly a happy place and yet better in many ways). — Agent Smith

The good and the bad of our education does not stop with individuals doing well in life. How well individuals do depends greatly on how well their family has done. A nation not united with culture is not united. Few disadvantaged children are doing well because they do not know of life outside of the tiny experience of it. Education centered on those who will go to college cheats all those who will not go to college out of the education that serves them best. But more important is why education is important to democracy and liberty.

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

That is what we need to understand about the trouble we are having today. Automatic weapons are selling much better than the classics or books about philosophy. We think we defend our democracy with weapons of war and are clueless of the importance of the classics and philosophy. That is not how to manifest a democracy and liberty.

If the citizens of the US wanted lifelong education as much as they want weapons to defend themselves, the state of our union would be much better. Voting ignorance destroys democracy. I refer you to Socrates and Plato. I will repeat the quote from Kucinich.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

Yes, a lot of ideas in a big pot is a complex concept. Democracy is a complex concept.

If we can bring back my grandmother's way of teaching, our democracy is doomed. Thomas Jefferson and teachers understood that. Since you do not like my efforts to explain what the Age of Enlightenment has to do with education and democracy, I will quote Kucinich and Thomas Jefferson. Right now most voters seem to lack the principles that are important to democracy and that is a problem.

“Unless we’re motivated by principle in our voting, we walk into a mirrored echo chamber, where there’s no coherence,” Kucinich

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people." Thomas Jefferson

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day." Thomas Jefferson

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both."
Thomas Jefferson

"To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the college and university. The object is to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country, for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind, which, in proportion to our population, shall be double or treble of what it is in most countries."
Thomas Jefferson

"If the children are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences than it would have done in their correction by a good education."
Thomas Jefferson

"To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens...this brings us to the point at which are to commence the higher branches of education . . . . To develop the reasoning faculties of our youth, enlarge their minds, cultivate their morals, and instill into them the precepts of virtue and order."
Thomas Jefferson

"The objects of this primary education . . . would be . . . to form the statesmen, legislators and judges, on whom public prosperity and individual happiness are so much to depend." Thomas Jefferson

Because "the old country" is immediate and real to the grandparents; a nebulous memory to the parents, irrelevant to the children. Because their children's world is different from their own. Because the future is different from the past. Because things change. You can't bring back your grandmother's kind of teaching. It belongs in the past. You can't reconstitute an ideal America that never was. It is what it is and will become what it will become. — Vera Mont

Did you learn that in school? I believe you did and it is why I keep hammering away at what is wrong with education for technology and blaming those who gave us this education for ripping children away from their families.

Our ideal democracy has always been in the making and we are realizing successes that were not possible in the past. In the past, our education system was very limited and many students dropped out by grade 8. That is too young to learn more complex thoughts such as the thinking skills needed for philosophy and science. Jobs did not require a lot of education and we needed all the working hands we could get. Hopefully, they learned to be good citizens and hopefully, they continued learning for the rest of their lives as this is essential to democracy.

That would have to include: — Vera Mont

You missed something that is vitally important about our identity.

Our identity is tied to feelings of belonging or feelings of alienation. Our identity can also be tied to feelings of pride or feelings of shame. This is a very important factor when considering a child's education. We now see it as wrong to educate native American children in such a way as to intentionally break all ties to their tribe. The well-intended missionary schools that tore children from their families and punished them for speaking their native language are seen as a terrible thing today. On the other hand, the Scandinavians who settled in the area where I live, have an annual festival celebrating the heritage. Asian Americans who live here have two annual celebrations educating us about their culture.

Am I making my point clear? When it comes to education, one size does not fit all. However, American citizens should share a set of American values (national values) and know our history. Immigrants must prove they know our values and history before they can be citizens. However, today the average high school student may not be able to pass the test for citizenship.

Your blindness to cultural differences is as disrespectful of all people as the missionaries and is as dangerous as driving blind. However, our education for a technological society seems to put universal knowledge first and ignore our differences as though they don't matter. I think I have given examples of why our differences do matter. It is painful to be anonymous in the crowd and possibly disenfranchised.
Those who stormed our Capital Building most likely suffer from feeling anonymous and disenfranchised.

I don't know what you-all, collectively, want. I only know you can't seem to agree. — Vera Mont

That is a problem. You seem to lack an understanding of what culture is and why it is important.

↪Athena The education system is not an issue then - if it has been, as you say, reworked. I'm not complaining, being myself a beneficiary of the US education system in both direct and indirect ways. I don't think I would be where I am (not exactly a happy place and yet better in many ways). — Agent Smith

In the 1970's we announced a national youth crisis. My son and daughter were part of that and I take the change in education very seriously. I was in school when the 1958 National Defense Education was enacted and I remember my teachers walking around in a state of shock. It was frightening because at that time when were also very afraid of a nuclear attack from Russia and doing drills of ducking under our desk. :rofl: As though that would do any good in a nuclear war. Finally in the afternoon a male teacher explained the purpose of education had been changed and it was now about preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values. We could not get any further from the value-laden education we had.

That change in education lead to women's liberation and increased the strength of people of color gaining equality and finally to the Lesbian, bisexual and gay movement. It has also weakened family values. That is the meaning of unknown values, anything goes. Problem is like civilizations before us we ripping apart. We have a technological society with unknown values and we are not prepared to get a consensus on what our values should be. I do not mean the change in education is the only thing that lead to change, and I want to clarify some of that change is a good thing.

What I mean is those in power did not understand the importance of culture and what education has to do with it in a secular society. We still do not get, that culture does not have to be a Christian culture or a Muslim Culture to have social order and liberty. That culture can be based on Greek and Roman classics and a liberal education. For me, the ignorance of what I am saying is our national crisis. We do not have the knowledge that is essential to having social order without authority over the people.

Education for technology ripped our children from us. In the past education contributed to respecting our elders, and wanting to be adults with responsibility, human dignity, and liberty.

Does this mean following Trump and attempting to take over the Capital Building with force and threatening people like election workers and members of congress?
— Athena

I'm afraid it does include that, too. That very large, noisy disaffected minority is not an accidental byproduct of education-for-technology: it's the product of crappy political and economic organization. — Vera Mont

Your reply is the problem we have today! That is the result of education no longer transmitting the culture that was transmitted before the 1958 National Defense Education Act ended that education. The very reason we have free public education was to prevent those problems. Teachers were proud of their efforts to support unions, granges, fraternities, in general the need to work together to achieve a shared goal. There is so much to talk about!